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Umfrage

What aspect of Shadow of Mordor/War should be added to Edain?

New Mordor units based on Captains/Warchiefs
5 (45.5%)
New Creatures EX: Graugs, Caragors
0 (0%)
New Heroes EX: Talion, Celebrimbor, Black Hand
0 (0%)
New Maps based on the locations shown in the games, EX: Minas Ilith and Udun
6 (54.5%)
Add music from the Shadow of Games to Edain
0 (0%)

Stimmen insgesamt: 11

Umfrage geschlossen: 11. Okt 2017, 02:46

Autor Thema: Shadow of Mordor/War vs Edain canon?  (Gelesen 2185 mal)

Shadowlord

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Shadow of Mordor/War vs Edain canon?
« am: 19. Mär 2017, 22:51 »
Ever since the trailer of Shadow of War came out, I have been thinking and breathing Lord of the Rings lore non-stop.

As such, for this topic I wanted to discuss with you guys on what your thoughts are on the Middle-Earth Shadow series continuity vs the continuity of the original Tolkien mythology. Including whether or not it would be beneficial to implement aspects of the Shadow of Mordor/War series into the Edain mod. This can include units, voice lines, music, characters and more.

I am aware many hardcore Tolkien fans prefer to ignore the several Middle-Earth games   due to how many aspects of those games contradict prexisting lore for the sake of creative liberty.

But I feel that the game has its own merits and the new lore it introduces could fit in Tolkein lore and the Edain mod in turn.

Anyway, all opinions are welcome and I look forward to discussing this topic with you guys in greater detail.

Walküre

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Re: Shadow of Mordor/War vs Edain canon?
« Antwort #1 am: 20. Mär 2017, 00:50 »
Hello. First of all, we already have an existing thread that deals with this game, but you were right in opening this topic, provided that we link the whole debate with Edain-based content (as you did). Only within these boundaries can we enable an on-topic discussion, while the other thread is focused on the game itself.

On the matter, I confess I'm not very much familiar with the details of the topic, although I do have knowledge of a few 'controversial' aspects. For the sake of the debate itself, I thus suggest you list the main points that you deem worthy of being considered, in regards of the lore and of the propriety of hypothetical implementations from this source; that would certainly contribute to order things more clearly. Nevertheless, I have to say I'm quite sceptical about this kind of inclusions, given that very serious issues concerning gameplay could arise: how could one add many more elements in a quite already-consolidated context? This is not saying that major modifications are not conceivable, as the Edain Mod is always being improved via diverse means, but the problem is to discern whether this typology of changes are suitable for the very Mod in the first place.

And, of course, here we come to the lore. Believe me, I'm personally very much open-minded regarding new alternatives, due to my conviction that the vast lore should be seen as a coherent ensemble of customary interpretations (which can imply different versions); but certain relevant limits should not be disregarded too. This is not a matter of being a purist or not. It's just, in my opinion, trying to keep the Edain Mod as much consistent as possible, if we take into account the fact that the lore and the canonical cinematographic sources are simply paramount in the game (the addition of fictional material becomes therefore a very sensitive of a subject). Let us refer to Celebrimbor as an example, being him one of the prime characters involved: having him wander around as a loose spirit is a violation of the canon that could hardly be reconciled with the Edain Mod's principal characteristics and essence. I may have picked an extreme case as a reference, but that should give the idea of what I was talking about. Anyway, I'm interested in what this discussion is to result in  :)

Shadowlord

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Re: Shadow of Mordor/War vs Edain canon?
« Antwort #2 am: 20. Mär 2017, 02:15 »
I thus suggest you list the main points that you deem worthy of being considered, in regards of the lore and of the propriety of hypothetical implementations from this source;

In all respects I didn't list all of my main points yet in order to keep this forum open ended for now. But I do think the existence of spirit Celebrimbor is one topic that is worthy of discussion. Yes a character of his name does contradict Tolkien canon. However I wouldn't dismiss his character entirely because of the circumstances he was in during the events of Shadow of Mordor.

If hypothetically he would be implemented in the Edain mod, I could see him as a hero for an Eregion faction. Although it would be based on Celebrimbor while he was still alive. In terms of his Wraith like powers, that is probably another contradiction to the canon however I think it would be cool in a flavor context if his abilities were similar to that of the game. Powers that increase his speed or attack rate, stealth themed abilities, maybe even an ultimate that is inspired from his One Ring ability in the Bright Lord DLC without implying that he has the actual One Ring, perhaps it could be the strength that he draws from a ring he created for himself.

Many of the Heroes in the Edain game has abilities that their characters normally don't have in the books, for example Aragorn never had a Blade Master ability that gave him super human speed and reflexes, or Ugluk's Dark Medicine ability that restores both his wounds and that of nearby Uruks within a short timespan.  Hero abilities in general are meant to be gameplay representations of their feats in the book without having to be too realistic and I could see the same apply to Celebrimbor superhuman abilities as being abilities he gained from his own Ring.

Who knows, anyways thanks for the comment DieWalküre.

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Shadow of Mordor/War vs Edain canon?
« Antwort #3 am: 20. Mär 2017, 09:16 »
For me, the "Shadow of" games are an abomination of lore. I've looked a bit into it and in addition to completely made up events (the forging of a second ruling ring, wraith taking control of a body) they have also rearranged the timeline completely stacking multiple different time on each other. I won't be much help for this since I'm so opposed to those game but I'll just say that the implementation of media from the games into the mod is possible (voices, inspiration from the models, ect...) However, in my eyes implementation of mechanics and characters is unlikely due to the nature of the games.
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Walküre

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Re: Shadow of Mordor/War vs Edain canon?
« Antwort #4 am: 20. Mär 2017, 15:46 »
For me, the "Shadow of" games are an abomination of lore. I've looked a bit into it and in addition to completely made up events (the forging of a second ruling ring, wraith taking control of a body) they have also rearranged the timeline completely stacking multiple different time on each other.

Yes, this is the issue I was addressing. This exact main motive of the whole series is what doesn't convince me at all. We're not talking about minor reinventions or some exotic reinterpretations. There are many questionable choices that simply don't comply even minimally with the most basic of the above-mentioned canons. A case about which was made a wrong comparison: it's true that many features of the Mod feed from the canonical sources and are bent to the logic of gameplay at the same time, but issues as Celebrimbor himself just go beyond all these premises. His condition as a wandering spirit, violating the rules of the Halls of Mandos, could not be reconciled with the Edain Mod's standards. By the way, hinting at an additional Elven faction is an even less realistic of an eventuality.

Listing some possibilities could help us more with the arrangement of the discussion. There might be small pieces that could indeed be viewed favourably, but I'm not acquainted with that game that much. This is a contribution that ought to come, in my opinion, from the author of the very thread.

Odysseus

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Re: Shadow of Mordor/War vs Edain canon?
« Antwort #5 am: 20. Mär 2017, 15:50 »
Indeed. Games like these are usually a good source for media, but that is about it. I personally believe the ''Shadow of'' games and BFME shouldn't even be compared. They are completely different. If anything of these games would ever be implemented it would have to be based on already pre-existing lore, but the games take way too many liberties with the canon. Some defy the very foundations of Tolkien's concept of his entire legendarium, written in the very first pages of the Silmarillion (Like the Doom of Mandos and Celebrimbor/Talion's wraith shenanigans). You can find enough articles online that debate the validity of the games canonically speaking. Here is an example as to what I mentioned: http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/70777/how-well-does-shadow-of-mordor-fit-into-middle-earth-canon

The canon deviations in the original film trilogy (to draw a comparison) can be forgiven, because most of them are really small and the bigger ones can be counted on one hand. It is also the first time the LOTR trilogy was visualised with modern cinematographic technology, which is why the movies are usually used for visual stuff, instead of straight lore-related stuff.

Both BFME and ''Shadow of'' games are completely different in their own respect, and they both deliver in their own way, seeking a different audience. People that primarily enjoy the visual side of LOTR and Tolkien's universe will probably focus on ''Shadow of'' games, but there are also those that wish to respect Tolkien's memory, and keep the lore deviations to a bare minimum.

So, unless there is a really well-written concept of a specific addition to BFME, working on canonical unclarities or overall doubt, does not straight up conflict with what Tolkien wrote, and truly adds something to the game, like shoring up a faction's weakness or giving players a way to customise their own hero, I predict the games will stay a media source only.

“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

Shadowlord

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Re: Shadow of Mordor/War vs Edain canon?
« Antwort #6 am: 20. Mär 2017, 19:31 »

Both BFME and ''Shadow of'' games are completely different in their own respect, and they both deliver in their own way, seeking a different audience. People that primarily enjoy the visual side of LOTR and Tolkien's universe will probably focus on ''Shadow of'' games, but there are also those that wish to respect Tolkien's memory, and keep the lore deviations to a bare minimum.

So, unless there is a really well-written concept of a specific addition to BFME, working on canonical unclarities or overall doubt, does not straight up conflict with what Tolkien wrote, and truly adds something to the game, like shoring up a faction's weakness or giving players a way to customise their own hero, I predict the games will stay a media source only.
[/quote]

I can understand how Tolkien fans can see the "Shadow of" series as a bastardization of the lore and that including aspects of that game could be negative for the Edain mod. Still for the sake of the hypothetical looking purely at some of the original ideas from the game, I would like to ask a question relating to the Edain mod.

Would you guys like to see some of the original species introduced to the Edain mod in the future. Whether as a faction unit or new creeps for the sake of variety. Such Caragors, Graugs, or the new Drakes introduced in the recent Shadow of War trailer.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/middleearthshadowofmordor7723/images/0/04/The_Lord_of_the_Hunt_screenshot_(2).jpg/revision/latest?cb=20141030150421

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20141205112324/shadowofmordor/de/images/c/c0/Geh%C3%B6rnterGraug.jpg

http://nerdreactor.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Middle-earth-Shadow-of-War-Screenshot1_1488824795.jpg

As we all know, there are a very limited pool of creeps across the Edain skirmish maps. I personally think it would be cool to see new creatures added to the Edain creep pool for both variety in gameplay and visual appeal. The downside is the lore contradictions that can arise from the inclusion of such creatures but I do note, the Edain team has used creatures introduced on vanilla BFME 2, such as Snow/Hill trolls, and Mountain Giants that have little to no background in the lore. And yes I am aware that the Mountain Giants are getting a redesign.

Regardless would you guys like to see these new creatures in the game as creeps or new units, for example Caragor riders being a unique cavalry unit for Mordor.

Let me know your thoughts



OakenShield224

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Re: Shadow of Mordor/War vs Edain canon?
« Antwort #7 am: 20. Mär 2017, 20:37 »
Hmm this seems quite interesting. I think these sorts of units should remain as creeps (if they enter the mod at all).

For the other aspects of the game, some of the fortresses could be made into maps. If there is a need for it, warchiefs could be made as a customisable, leadership unit for Mordor (sort of like the Veterans of Khazad Dum but as a single unit rather than a battalion). Other than that, I can't really think of anything else that wouldn't disrupt the lore if it was put in the mod.

Odysseus

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Re: Shadow of Mordor/War vs Edain canon?
« Antwort #8 am: 20. Mär 2017, 21:43 »
I personally have no objections to visual creep variety. These sorts of ideas have been proposed several times before and the idea has surely not been abandoned. However, when is the question, right? Well, this kind of the thing is obviously at the bottom of the priority list, since it is just visual variety for something that doesn't really last long on the battlefield anyway, but chances are you might see something like this done when Edain is finished. If it ever reaches that point, anyway :P.

If sooner, I guess it would be a funny little surprise.
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Captain Jin

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Re: Shadow of Mordor/War vs Edain canon?
« Antwort #9 am: 27. Mär 2017, 18:55 »
From a lore and consistency focus, I'd be entirely against putting anything from Shadow of Mordor/War into Edain. However, from a gameplay design, it honestly could be very interesting and fun. I could see a submod with a lot of love put in for a Gondorian Outcast faction as being purely a Mordor counter; being able to free men from enemy slave camps, Talion controlling orcs with the Brand ability, making enemy spy units that can be activated like sleeper cells. Definitely could create some new and fascinating gameplay.

Just want to restate, it's entirely noncanonical and almost ridiculous, but some of the material they made is pretty interesting, haha.

Shadowlord

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Re: Shadow of Mordor/War vs Edain canon?
« Antwort #10 am: 13. Apr 2017, 01:45 »
Well the new Minas Ithil gameplay has been released. Looks pretty good. Here's my next question.

Should Black Numenorians like the Hand,Hammer,and Tower of Sauron be included as sub-heros in the Mordor faction?

I would imagine they would be similar to the Rohan Captains you could train on Rohan's Exile Camp. You could train them at the Dol Guldur or Minas Morgul outposts to provide additional heroes to make those outposts more worthwhile.  You could make them stronger trainable versions of the Orc Overseers that combine with normal Orc troops to buff them. Have those heroes gain experience when orcs kill enemies, and in turn they will gain new abilties that buff orc hordes like resurrecting nearby orc troops or providing an attack buff.

Anyway I am sure there are many reasons why they can't be implemented in the game, including how Angmar already has a heavy Black Numenorian theme which would make Mordor less unique. Or how there weren't that many Black Numenorians serving under Sauron during the War of the Ring to begin with. And how Mordor already has enough heroes as it is.

I think it would be cool to control Black Numenorians in the Mordor faction but its probably too unrealistic.

Still would you guys want to see Black Numenorian heroes in the Mordor faction in the future and if so, how do you think they should be implemented?

OakenShield224

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Re: Shadow of Mordor/War vs Edain canon?
« Antwort #11 am: 13. Apr 2017, 10:41 »
Mordor already have the Mouth of Sauron as a Black Numenorian hero. I'm pretty sure the Morgul Riders are men as well so I'm not sure if Mordor needs any more men (especially once you consider the Easterlings and Haradrim).

One thing that could be interesting in Edain would be the Warchiefs. These could be like stronger versions of overseers that you could recruit a certain amount of. Once you recruit a warchief you can then customise its weapon and leadership, and maybe even have some bodyguards to protect it.

Shadowlord

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Re: Shadow of Mordor/War vs Edain canon?
« Antwort #12 am: 13. Apr 2017, 23:14 »
One thing that could be interesting in Edain would be the Warchiefs. These could be like stronger versions of overseers that you could recruit a certain amount of. Once you recruit a warchief you can then customise its weapon and leadership, and maybe even have some bodyguards to protect it.
[/quote]

I couldn't agree more on the Warchief idea.

mycaelspear

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Re: Shadow of Mordor/War vs Edain canon?
« Antwort #13 am: 21. Jun 2017, 22:00 »
I would avoid most of the Shadow of stuff being added except for maybe some more creep variety and warchiefs. I agree it bastardizes the lore but that does have to happen sometimes if we are going to continue to get new Middle Earth games and media. If anything from the Shadow of series were to be added I would do the warchiefs. There have already been some great suggestions like making them replace overseers and being able to customize their weapon and leadership and bodyguards. I would handle them like this.

Warchief Unit
400-500 resources
Spawns with one unit like thrall master until bodyguards are bought.
Choose weapon from sword, pike, or archers. Weapon chosen will determine leadership bonus and when bodyguard upgrade is bought will give units with same type of weapon. Weapon selection is because these are the standard orc batallions in game right now.

Leadership 30% boost to damage and armor of unit type. Standard overseers give 50% boosts so this seems a good middle ground since these will get some bodyguards.

Bodyguards
300-400 resources
Spawns some bodyguards around the warchief with similar weapons as his. They would spawn in with upgrades since they are meant to be the elite orcs.

Shadowlord

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Re: Shadow of Mordor/War vs Edain canon?
« Antwort #14 am: 4. Jul 2017, 07:27 »
I would avoid most of the Shadow of stuff being added except for maybe some more creep variety and warchiefs. I agree it bastardizes the lore but that does have to happen sometimes if we are going to continue to get new Middle Earth games and media. If anything from the Shadow of series were to be added I would do the warchiefs. There have already been some great suggestions like making them replace overseers and being able to customize their weapon and leadership and bodyguards. I would handle them like this.

I completely agree, I can understand why the devs wanted to incorporate the Orc Overseers to serve as a unique upgrade for Mordor. But I always found the Overseers to be very boring flavor wise. I don't imagine the devs would be interested in the Warchief idea because of how Mordor orcs are portrayed as being a mindless swarm, with no identity beyond being the servants of Sauron. Similar in the vein to the Darkspawn in Dragon Age or the Flood in Halo.

I hope going forward the devs are open to incorporating Warchiefs, especially considering the faction only has like two Orc Heroes as it is, which is pretty small if you consider how Mordor arguably has the largest Orc population in Middle Earth. Rohan has Captains, so I don't think Warchiefs is a huge stretch of the imagination.

Shadowlord

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Re: Shadow of Mordor/War vs Edain canon?
« Antwort #15 am: 19. Jul 2017, 02:49 »
Many users asked me about setting a list of priorities to discuss for this forum. As a result I decided to open a poll about what people are most interested in, in terms of what should be taken from the Shadow of Mordor/War games and added to the Edain mod. Feel free to vote on what you would be most interested in seeing added to Edain, and also feel free to post why you chose your vote. These lists are the topics that I think hold the highest priority for discussion in this forum.

Feel free to vote and post your thoughts.

Shadowlord

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Re: Shadow of Mordor/War vs Edain canon?
« Antwort #16 am: 29. Sep 2017, 19:45 »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxRVeyzuO7o

It's good to know that Monolith is very self aware of the radically changes they made to Tolkein's lore.

Shadowlord

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Re: Shadow of Mordor/War vs Edain canon?
« Antwort #17 am: 15. Okt 2017, 03:36 »
Now Shadow of War has been officially released, receiving a lot of praise and criticism from the community.

I look forward to playing the game myself and I hope this forum was helpful to the members of the Edain community who are also Shadow of Mordor/War fans.