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Autor Thema: Is Lothlorien Too Reliant On The Mirkwood Outpost?  (Gelesen 7060 mal)

Captain Jin

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As it currently stands I'd honestly want to say that Mirkwood Outposts are more useful to Lothlorien than their actual castles. Other than unit upgrades it effectively does everything the castle can do but better. It produces ranged cavalry, elite pikemen, elite swordsmen, elite archers, all of which should (according to the late-game meta) be replacing your units rather than supporting them. It produces two of the better heroes of Lothlorien, and can have anywhere between 15000 and 20000 health for roughly 3000 resources. The only other faction that has such a reliance on Outposts is Mordor, and they still have a number of options without Outposts.

This reliance has two primary concerns. On maps with Outposts they have a significant advantage if they can get one early (as they also produce resources and are at base cost relatively cheap compared to other faction Outposts), and without Outposts their difficulty is increased significantly. The balance of a faction shouldn't rely on the map being played (of course map balance is always going to be an issue but this is a reliance on Outposts rather than map design).

I've no idea how such a problem could be fixed considering how ingrained it is into the entire stratagem of Lothlorien, however the over reliance still seems a problem to me.
« Letzte Änderung: 8. Apr 2017, 18:16 von Captain Jin »

Secret Keeper

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Re: Is Lothlorien Too Reliant On The Mirkwood Outpost?
« Antwort #1 am: 8. Apr 2017, 18:16 »
I don't think they are too reliant. People really forgot about normal lothlorien outpost and it's huge advantages. Everybody goes for mirkwood even when normal outpost would be more beneficial in some situations. Sometimes it is really painful to watch.

However, you got a point. Mirkwood gives lothlorien a huge benefit, unlike f.e. lake town or dale, which gives dwarves worse units & heroes than their regular ones (it's quite strange to be honest  8-|). But i don't think there is a problem - I've personally never got a problem with that + i don't think there is actually a map without an outpost. And even if it is, nobody plays competitive on that map.   

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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Re: Is Lothlorien Too Reliant On The Mirkwood Outpost?
« Antwort #2 am: 8. Apr 2017, 18:36 »
Galadhrim are the best archers in the game (and too strong in 4.4.1). If you prioritise Mirkwood archers over them in a competitive setting, you're doing something wrong^^

Neither the swordsmen nor the archers are elite units. And the speed boost makes regular Lorien infantry much more valuable in a lot of situations, so they shouldn't be replaced by Mirkwood units, at least not entirely.

Lorien doesn't need Mirkwood to win, since Galadhrim are so strong and Haldir's stun is quite frankly broken, although Mirkwood nevertheless is exceptionally strong. I don't agree with your statement at all though.

Captain Jin

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Re: Is Lothlorien Too Reliant On The Mirkwood Outpost?
« Antwort #3 am: 8. Apr 2017, 19:15 »

Some of my info was taken from the wiki in researching if my theory held any water, so I apologize calling them elite units and implying Mirkwood Archers were better than Galadhrim (which I honestly didn't think of comparing). However, would you agree that Mirkwood Outpost is too powerful compared to other faction's Outposts? It offers a helluva lot more than any other one I can think of while still very cost efficient (and I know this is a separate question, but I'd say it's still relevant).

kmogon

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Re: Is Lothlorien Too Reliant On The Mirkwood Outpost?
« Antwort #4 am: 8. Apr 2017, 19:23 »
I wouldn't say that mirkwood is more useful than lothlorien.
Firstly lothlorien units have auto-heal, are much faster and do more damage which according to their archery specialisation is more encouraging than just buy mirkwood units with higher armor but lower damage. Additionaly I can say that mirkwood swordsmen and archers rather aren't elite units.
Secondly If I want sth with higher amount of armor I would choose galadhrim because they are just a mix of mirkwood swordsman and archer. In multiplayer I prefer to avoid buying mirkwood outpost cause of his poor defense and longer recruitnent time.

Odysseus

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Re: Is Lothlorien Too Reliant On The Mirkwood Outpost?
« Antwort #5 am: 8. Apr 2017, 19:25 »
Though we all have to admit that it is somewhat illogical that a faction that specialises in archery, has some of the best, if not, THE best pikes in the game. This makes little sense to me. The faction needs to have a clearer weakness in its unit composition imo. I think nerfing the singers will just make people focus more on the Mirkwood Elite pikes, although it would be a step in the right direction, I think.
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Re: Is Lothlorien Too Reliant On The Mirkwood Outpost?
« Antwort #6 am: 8. Apr 2017, 20:28 »
I do agree that Mirkwood is overperforming a bit in 4.4.1, but that's mainly because it produces too much money and gives you access to an op hero (Legolas) and the best anti-cav in Palace Guard.

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Re: Is Lothlorien Too Reliant On The Mirkwood Outpost?
« Antwort #7 am: 9. Apr 2017, 01:32 »
It's quite interesting to notice how everything seems often to eventually revolve around pikemen, archery and the role of Mirkwood in the faction's own design. For those who might not be acquainted with the topic, we have already raised some crucial problematics in this thread, whilst providing a couple of solutions at the same time. On the grounds of that debate, I think I will abstain from providing further considerations on the matter. Nevertheless, feel free to develop the discussion as you wish.

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Is Lothlorien Too Reliant On The Mirkwood Outpost?
« Antwort #8 am: 9. Apr 2017, 02:04 »
Neither the swordsmen nor the archers are elite units. And the speed boost makes regular Lorien infantry much more valuable in a lot of situations, so they shouldn't be replaced by Mirkwood units, at least not entirely.

*frantically presses delete on the mirkwood pages' elite tag* My bad on that one, has been fixed.
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Captain Jin

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Re: Is Lothlorien Too Reliant On The Mirkwood Outpost?
« Antwort #9 am: 10. Apr 2017, 03:27 »

You're fine man. Relying on any wiki article as 100% proof (especially one with near a thousand pages) is never a good idea. More my bad than yours, haha.

-DJANGO-

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Re: Is Lothlorien Too Reliant On The Mirkwood Outpost?
« Antwort #10 am: 10. Apr 2017, 11:58 »
I agree with Elendil.
As side note, Dale/LakeTown give them Dwarves a huge ecomic boost. Also their units have special advantages dwarven units dont have.

Back to Mirkwood: I think too, that Lorien should not have that “easily“ such good pikes in Form of Palace guards. Personally i would find it interesting if Palace Guards were replaced by armored Mirkwood Pikes with anti Cav formation (Film Design), whilst them Palace Guards find only through Thranduils ability into the game. With gifts of Galadriel it would be possible to get control of one line of the two lines of Palace Guards, giving Lorien a hard to get, temporary use of elite pikes.
Although that would disorganize the Mirkwood Building System. Maybe Elk Archers could be moved to the Plance Guard Building + make the building 500.
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Re: Is Lothlorien Too Reliant On The Mirkwood Outpost?
« Antwort #11 am: 10. Apr 2017, 23:42 »
Personally i would find it interesting if Palace Guards were replaced by armored Mirkwood Pikes with anti Cav formation (Film Design), whilst them Palace Guards find only through Thranduils ability into the game. With gifts of Galadriel it would be possible to get control of one line of the two lines of Palace Guards, giving Lorien a hard to get, temporary use of elite pikes.

I mostly agree with any of the reasons for this solution to be followed. Similarly to how we had envisaged a possible and general reordering of pikes in Lothlórien. If we leave aside the part of the topic which deals with Fredius' Woodsmen and with the removal of Lórien's basic pikemen, it's quite logical and consequential to think about such an implementation: the regular lancers of the Woodland Realm are the sole and only ordinary pikemen, while Palace Guards are exactly supposed to fully fulfil their elitist and royal role. That kind of implementation via no one else but the king himself is thus conceptually perfect and much reasonable.

Joragon

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Re: Is Lothlorien Too Reliant On The Mirkwood Outpost?
« Antwort #12 am: 11. Apr 2017, 14:31 »
Or we design the palace guards as heavy elite swordsmen which have the same ability like now to slow down cavalry. So they are strong against cavalry but only with support from archers or so because they don't do so much damage against the cavalry (they don't have spears).

Thranduil's Palace Guards (from his ability) could use spears instead.

Gandalf7000

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Re: Is Lothlorien Too Reliant On The Mirkwood Outpost?
« Antwort #13 am: 12. Apr 2017, 12:28 »
I also like the idea that Palace Guards can be accessed only via Thranduil's ability. One more idea: that ability could be changed that Thranduil summons some palace guards as neutral creeps (for some time) that follow him and attack nearby enemies (similarly how Nori summons Dori in Erebor Faction).

Isildurs Fluch

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Re: Is Lothlorien Too Reliant On The Mirkwood Outpost?
« Antwort #14 am: 7. Aug 2017, 11:23 »
I like the idea to make the palace guard only accessible through Thranduils abbility, it seems to make more sense not only concerning gameplay, but also the lore.

As Tauriel they could be recruitable on Mirkwood maps as a feature leaving the task of delivering the best spearmen to Lorien.
The question is if this should be done by strengthening the normal apearmen or if another elite-spearunit should be implemented. It could be named Guardians of Cerin Amroth or Defenders of the Celebrant. They could have the same unique ability as the Palace Guard at the moment, but lower armour, but better mobility...

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Re: Is Lothlorien Too Reliant On The Mirkwood Outpost?
« Antwort #15 am: 7. Aug 2017, 14:09 »
Although i like the imagination of Guardians of Cerin Amroth or Defenders of the Celebrant, it would contradict what i said above; that Lorien should not get that “easily“ elite Pikes.

As for the ability of the Palace Guard, we are discussing internally, if an ability switch with the Imladris pikes would make more sense.
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Isildurs Fluch

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Re: Is Lothlorien Too Reliant On The Mirkwood Outpost?
« Antwort #16 am: 7. Aug 2017, 14:29 »
I totally agree with you, the spearmen should´t be the focus of the faction, that should be elite-archers...

My motivation for this suggestion was another one: Lorien needs a way to defend against a rider-strategy independend from the outpost.
The normal spear-men are without augrades practically useless. With an upgrade and their fast movement-ability they are a bit more usefull, but still in many cases to weak, which forces the player to use palace guards.
My idea was not to improve the role of spearmen in Loriens ranks, but to weaken it.
The new unit should be weaker in armour than the current palace-guard coping this weakness through better mobility.

Which of the two abbilities of the Imladris Spearmen do you mean Porcupine Formation or Shieldwall? I would definitly think the current abbility of the Palace Guards would suit them well, but am not sure about the reverse.
I´d love to get an opportunity to recruit better spearmen with no static but more dynamic abbilities adequate for the overall theme of the faction.
This thoughts lead me back to the idea of replacing the palace guard with a more dynamic Lorien-equivalent...
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Re: Is Lothlorien Too Reliant On The Mirkwood Outpost?
« Antwort #17 am: 7. Aug 2017, 14:46 »
Zitat
Which of the two abbilities of the Imladris Spearmen do you mean Porcupine Formation or Shieldwall?
- the Porcupine, forgot to mention it  [ugly]

Zitat
The normal spear-men are without augrades practically useless. With an upgrade and their fast movement-ability they are a bit more usefull, but still in many cases to weak, which forces the player to use palace guards.
- I disagree here. With Upgrade Elvish Blade that deals the double amout of damage, what a forged blade upgrade usually deals and the possibility of using Singers or getting Haldir Leadership, i never made the experience, that you could not fight elite/heroic Cav or heavy Battle-troll spam with just Lorien standard pikes. Due to the lack of HP you'll need a lot of bataillons of course...
I dont understand request for another dynamic pike unit. The whole faction is build on the principle that the standard Lorien units characterize speed and mobility whilst the units from the Mirkwood outpost stand for armored/slower units.
« Letzte Änderung: 7. Aug 2017, 14:50 von -DJANGO- »
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Re: Is Lothlorien Too Reliant On The Mirkwood Outpost?
« Antwort #18 am: 7. Aug 2017, 16:14 »
I agree with most of what DJANGO has stated on the matter. I remember that some us had proposed the replacement of Lórien pikemen with a new hypothetical unit comprising Woodsmen (whom you would recruit in the Beornings Hut). In doing so, Lórien would be totally deprived of any lancer-type unit, as it is logical in accordance to the very essence of the realm, which is indeed embodied by speed and dynamism. This goes, of course, with the assumption that Lórien might suffer indeed such a loss in the very early phase of the game, while the faction would become very much dependent on the people of the woods (the hut).

Nevertheless, considered the difficulty of such proposal and implementation of a new concept, I would nonetheless accept the compromise suggested in the previous passages of the debate. Because Palace Guards are indeed the royal guard of Thranduil and to him only they ought to be related (given his sacred status); and I would also fancy the idea of seeing the regular lancers of Mirkwood in the game, so that we stick with more adherence to the cinematographic trilogy, along with providing Mirkwood with a real lancer-type unit which is meant for open battle.

Isildurs Fluch

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Re: Is Lothlorien Too Reliant On The Mirkwood Outpost?
« Antwort #19 am: 7. Aug 2017, 19:05 »
Maybe I haven´t give them enough chance to prove their usefulness, always going for Mirkwood instead  :D

I´m not a big fan of deleting Lorien-spearmen instead implementing Woodsmen in the Beorninger Hut from a gameplay-perspective. This would weaken Lorien a lot against early rider-rushes. If your not able to defend a Beorninger hut or didn´t have the opportunity to get one early one you would be totally screwed outside the base loosing zhe dominance on the map completely to your opponent.
A good example of this would be Isengart , which has kind of the same problem early on, but can cope with it focussing on Lvl2-Urukpits or Wargriders. Lorien literally would have no way to compete but using risky hit-and-run-tactics, which again can be easily answered with riders.

I actually see no need in implementing good armoured Mirkwood-spearmen. This wood actually give Lorien a cheaper version of better spears causing the opposite of what was intended...
In my oppinion Palace Guards can be deleted as recruitable unit without substitution. The Mirkwood-outpost would still be one of the most important and powerfull outposts in the game.
I also would be totally fine with the Lorien-Spearmen being the only recruitable unit of regular spearmen, if they are usefull enough.

The Defenders of Celebrant/Guardians of Cerith Amroth (can´t decide which name I like more) could be an heroic unit as the Guardians of Caras Galadhon which allows the player to have a very strong but expensive spearunit without having any focus on heavy spears at all.
I could imagine an ability of them guarding a building while being invisible and than getting an atack boost when enemies arrive.
This would give the player another spearunit, but only very limitted and focussed on defense...
Ersatz für die Elchreiter:
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,35514.0.html

Berittene Schützen für Imladris:
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Re: Is Lothlorien Too Reliant On The Mirkwood Outpost?
« Antwort #20 am: 7. Aug 2017, 23:52 »
The hero-unit we need would exactly be Palace Guards, implemented via a major hero's ability and bound to the very king, as their elitist and royal characterisation suggests. A truly unique unit, which serves its purpose in the best of the ways possible: guarding the head of the faction.

Furthermore, I wouldn't really mind the presence of regular lancers at all, for I really believe that Mirkwood should dispose of heavy lancer-type troops, being heavy infantry the very focus of the sub-faction. And providing Lórien with a solid defence is also a very important aspect. That said, the regular lancers would obviously be equal to swordsmen or archers, in order to avoid creating another replica of the king's guard.