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Autor Thema: A New way to discuss balance: Episode 1 Imladris Vs Isengard  (Gelesen 575 mal)

Offline Goodfella

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Hello everybody!

I've have decided to start a new mini-series on my channel focusing on balance issues. It is a discussion (and argument) - not just a statement of my opinion. So feel free to disagree and prove me wrong!

The mini-series is designed to be a secondary area for balance discussion and hopefully will start some new conversations on particular balance issues

In the first episode i'll be covering Imladris Vs Isengard:

Here is a link to the video, in which i discuss all the main points:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVfZHubikFw

In Summary i (and other players) believe that Isengard's early game is too much for imla to deal with bcs of a combination of wargs, scouts and wildmen

Some ways to balance:
1. Gildor cost reduction
2. Warg pit price increase (by about 100)
3. Delay the timing of scout's obtaining weapon switch
4. Increase the strength of the counter system (Will help in more than just this match-up imo)

Let the debate commence (I Hope)
« Letzte Änderung: 6. Jun 2017, 00:47 von Goodfella »
Euggghhh, I'm dead - Gildor 2017

Offline Odysseus

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There are a couple of things I would add to the table.

1. I agree with the Gildor cost reduction. Gildor has useful abilities, but I don't understand why he costs 250. He's pretty poor in combat.

2. I never liked the fact that Wildmen could get their torches without any requirements. As long as you have the cash for them, you can purchase them. I don't know if it is related to the video as I haven't watched it yet as I write. Imagine being able to purchase forged blades on a squad without having to research the upgrade first. The unique perk of the Wildmen is that they already steal resources, so I don't know why they have access to torches without any requirements besides cash. 

3. What do you mean with ''the strength of the balance system''? The counter-system?
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Offline Goodfella

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'Balance system' Thanks, that was a brain-fart ! derp :p i meant 'counter system'

I personally don't see torches as too much of a problem. It gives the wildmen a good boost yes, but is also a risk. you are investing more money in a weak unit that can be easily killed by cav/ archers. The 200 resources you invest is more than the cost of the unit itself!

That being said, just bcs i have never experienced it being too strong doesn't mean it can't be too strong in certain situations.

I guess it could be too strong if you use them to rush a base like mordor or isen where they have no walls and the torch becomes really useful. You can buff a few of your early troops to do more dmg to buildings, before either player has many command points. Unlike building another bat (which costs less resources) upgrades cost no command points, so maybe there could be a problem there.

Atm i see the torches making wildmen a bit better at their jobs, which is counterbalanced with a risk of losing a bigger investment.

In this match-up i think the bigger problem is early scouts and wargs vs an early imla army, in which pikes don't do enough dmg to warg attacks.
« Letzte Änderung: 6. Jun 2017, 01:09 von Goodfella »
Euggghhh, I'm dead - Gildor 2017

Offline Odysseus

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Hmm yes Imladris pikes should not lose those encounters so easily. As for the Isengard Scouts, yes they do a lot of damage, but generally I think Imladris' units (besides cavalry ofc) suffer a lot of damage from archers. Archers can focus fire their arrows on the few targets that Imladris battalions have, and do significant damage in the process. I suppose Isengard scouts could be nerfed a little, or the hunting arrow volley could be made to be usable on cav/monsters/heroes only, and not on troops. Isengard is supposed to have a weak early game, but it's deceptively strong if used correctly.
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Offline Mogat

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Very good analytic Video, I think we can all agree that this matchup needs some improovement.
Concerning the wildmen I agree with Fella: yes, you can quickly double their damage with the torches, however they are such a vulnerable unit, that this can fire back pretty quickly. At least in this matchup the scouts and their great synergy with the wargs is more troubeling.

Increasing the general damage of Pikes vs. Cavalry would already be a huge deal, not only in this matchup, but in countless other cases.
Cavalry is extremely strong in this patch, which leads to straightup cavalry battles in almost every game, because you cannot counter it with adequately with pikes. The player with the cavalry advantage has already won the game in 90% of the matches.
(it is almost impossible to counter a fast, harassing force, which can fight even pikes headon, while also having to deal with an infantry army, without cavalry). But that is maybe a point for another balance video.

The other suggestions are also very reasonable, lets see if something can be improoved in this direction.


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Offline -DJANGO-

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Agree with increasing the general damage of Pikes vs Cav.

The bow damage of scouts should be decreased to standard archer damage.

We have also considered to switch the abilities of Imladris Pikes (porcupine) and Lorien Palace Guard, due to the fact that porupine doesnt make sense with 5 unit bataillon and Imla Pikes have troubles with knockdown and fighting sword spam units.

These changes would help the matchup a lot.

Offline Odysseus

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Oh right, I completely forgot about that Django. That would be a great idea still.
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Offline Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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Scouts already do standard archer damage ;)

Gildor could easily go down to 150.

Setting the warg pit to 800 is something that could work quite nicely as it would hurt your eco quite a bit - rushing wargs would still be possible, but much less effective because you can't build up a vastly superior eco behind a constant warg production. Even less so when you wanna get wildmen on top of that. 700 won't cut it, I think.

Delaying the scout's weapon switch seems necessary to me. I initially favoured just having it unlock at level three, but that would make their banner carrier upgrade pretty much useless. Increasing the exp needed until they reach level two seems to be the better option.

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Offline Garlodur

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Good way to tackle balancing Goodfella, the visual cues help understanding the issue at hand.


Setting the warg pit to 800 is something that could work quite nicely as it would hurt your eco quite a bit - rushing wargs would still be possible, but much less effective because you can't build up a vastly superior eco behind a constant warg production. Even less so when you wanna get wildmen on top of that. 700 won't cut it, I think.

It seems that the ET has a sort of formula for the cost of buildings and units, however. Most stables cost either 600 or 800, and the second kind clearly house stronger units from the start. Rohan Stables, Dwarven Forge Works, and Warg Pit provide basic cavalry, whereas Gondor Stables, Imladris Green Pasture and Troll Cage provide elite cavalry or monsters.

Based on this reasoning I don't think ET will increase the cost of Warg Pits, as the Warg Riders do not deserve to be so good.

Delaying the scout's weapon switch seems necessary to me. I initially favoured just having it unlock at level three, but that would make their banner carrier upgrade pretty much useless. Increasing the exp needed until they reach level two seems to be the better option.

Somethin I have noticed often in my own play but even more in Goodfella's replays and commentaries is that Isengard Scouts increase level insanely fast. Maybe he just uses good creeping of the wildmen huts, but compared to other infantry Scouts are the only ones who seem to easily reach level 2 from just one wildmen hut. Perhaps this experience gain should be looked at, rather than looking only at the Hunting Arrows. A different solution I see is to increase the strength of the Hunting Arrows ability over multiple levels rather than unlocking at level 2 its full strength. I don't know how this will affect the Scouts' performance in other match-ups however.

Offline Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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You can get any other starting unit to level two if you let them deal with a wildmen hut on their own (except Imladris of course), so there's nothing special about that when it comes to scouts. ;)


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Offline mycaelspear

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Re: A New way to discuss balance: Episode 1 Imladris Vs Isengard
« Antwort #10 am: 21. Jun 2017, 21:33 »
I disagree with the scout weapon switching being gotten later. It's been a while since I played Isengard but don't they not have access to that without Lurtz on the field? Considering that's a 1400 investment to get archer/swords that seems reasonable. If they get it for free by advancing to 2 when you normally get banners I'd instead propose to change which upgrade they get at 2 unless you have the appropriate hero and buy the upgrade. I believe scouts only get 2 upgrades archery with Lurtz on the field and it costs 300 or shields with Ugluk on the field which boosts their armor for 300. Why don't we just switch their upgrade at 2 to be shields or give them banner carrier at 2 like every other faction? The bow and shield upgrades are 300 per scout and still require 1400 heroes for a weak early game unit so I don't see the issue. The counter would be to attack Isen's eco early which is their weakness.

Offline The_Necromancer0

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Re: A New way to discuss balance: Episode 1 Imladris Vs Isengard
« Antwort #11 am: 21. Jun 2017, 21:55 »
They can get it by simply leveling up which is the stem of the problem since a good player can get both his scout battalions level 2 by creeping two goblin-rank lairs.
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Offline sr_dark

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Re: A New way to discuss balance: Episode 1 Imladris Vs Isengard
« Antwort #12 am: 7. Jul 2017, 22:47 »
I saw your video and having used Imladris many times before, I believe one of the main issues is the amount of damage they take by arrows, that includes towers. This is a huge problem when you are trying to assault a base and end up losing most of your units in a minute since the battalions are (rightfully) so little. I've tried the same kind of assault with other factions and the results are not as devastating, this extends to battles also.

One of the main issues I saw in your video was precisely your units getting wrecked by archers, let alone the devastating combo with wargs.

I agree with the counter on pikes on Imladris, specially given 1 batallion is just one row of 'defense', and in the other factions they are 5 I believe, which becomes a big problem when you consider that the more Cav tramples, the more they slow down (and thus deal less and take more damage).

Nice vids!