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Autor Thema: Ered Mithrin Overhaul  (Gelesen 7817 mal)

Fancy Lad School

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Ered Mithrin Overhaul
« am: 28. Aug 2017, 00:22 »
This is a translation of my thread with the same name in the german forum.

Before I start I want to say that adding Ered Mithrin was a gorgeous idea but it is plagued by little problems which sum up pretty much.

Problems:

The price/performance problem:

Building the fortress costs full 2000 ressources and researching every upgrade (excluding the Big Catapult) costs another 1750 ressources which makes for hefty 3750 ressources for the whole thing. The fortress itself with the upgrades only produces 15 ressources per "ressource tick" (the small number popping up) where as similar structures like Dale, Esgaroth or the Dunedain Outpost (Imladris) cost only 800 ressources to build, with all upgrades they cost ca. 2600 and they produce insane amounts of ressources and can heal up your troops. A standard Outpost (costs 1200) with 3 fully upgraded Ressource-generators (no CP limit increase) costs 3750 ressources.

The unit problem:

The Hunters (Javelin guys) are well done and do their deed well, maybe they are a little too expensive.
The Zealots, I have tested 2 Battalions of these guys against a Cavetroll-Creep and they died pretty fast without making a big impact on the troll althought it clearly states that they are good against monsters. The main problem here is, that they are a made up bunch who are jack-of-all-traits but master-of-none. Originally they were intendet to fill out the same gap as the Esgaroth/Dale Swordsmen, that of light Infantry. At the moment they are way weaker than standard Iron Hills Keepers (the 200 ressources unit) and are not worth building even when with the speed-ability.
The dragonslayers are my least favorite of the bunch, they primarily exist as hero compensation and if things go bad they already die at a orc-creep-camp. Additionally they have no special traits besides good looks [uglybunti] and the little Aoe damage.

Solutions:

Price/Performance:

A good solution which also makes the fortress stand out from dale/esgaroth is the implementation of a "2-phase-fortress system" similar to the exiles-camp of Rohan:
Building the fortress will only cost 1250 resourcess now but the Hitpoints will be reduced to 8000. The fortress is at its beginning and the Grey Dwarfs prepare for war in their homeland therefor only defensive measures are available: Zealots, the Borderpatrol-Upgrade (the Javelin defense) and the new Supplyhall-Upgrade will be available.

The Supplyhall-Upgrade will cost 500 ressources and heals units in near proximity of the fortress, additionally it produces ressources (similar to the Dunedain Healing Tent Upgrade).


The upgrade to level 2 of the fortress will cost 750 ressources and will yield 2000 Hitpoints and additionally will have the same effect as the Dragontrophy-Upgrade albeit a little nerfed. The Grey Dwarfs will now go into offense and therefore more upgrades will be unlocked: The Barracks-Upgrade and the Big Catapult will be unlocked  and the Hunters are now recruitable.



Researching the Barracks-Upgrade, which now costs 750 ressources instead of 500, will unlock an active Skill which is usable on Ered Mithrin Battalions with banner bearers. It will transform the banner bearer into the dragonslayer (similar to the old Gondor-captain system which has been removed in version 4.4) If this system still causes problems (reason why it was removed) the dragonslayer should be recruitable just like now and then be combined with Ered Mithrin Battalions (like Uruk Shield Carriers).

With these changes the price for the fortress and all upgrades (besides Big Catapult) is still 3750 but now its easier to defend because of the additional heal effect (and eventually more Hitpoints), it is more profitable and the upgrades are now in a nice order which awakens the feeling of building something up from the ground.

The units:

Zealots: These Jack-of-all-traits currently shine in no situation and in order to give the Iron Hills an option of a kind of light infantry similar to the Dale/Esgaroth swordsmen I would raise their movement speed by 25% permantly and give them a new active skill. The skill prevents them from being knocked from their feet and maybe gives them an attack buff aginst monsters (so they can fight trolls without getting flung around!). Consider that the Zealots currently have less Hitpoints than the regular keepers so I think these buffs are justified, and if not I would make them more expensive, 250 ressources instead of 200. At the end we are talking about hardened veterans here.

The Dragonslayer: These will act as captains now which either can replace the banner bearer with an active skill in the fortress or, if this system still bugs, can be regularly recruitet and then combined with a Ered Mithrin unit of choice. Either way, you can only have a maximum of 3 at once and they give their unit buffs in attack, armor and make them fearless. A bonus of this system is that you dont have to carefully micro these little hard-to-click-at guys around the battlefield anymore. The units with a dragonslayer in them will be visible at the hero bar (if possible).

New unit: The Grey Warriors:


Background:
Mount Gundabad is very close to the Grey Mountains, so naturally many orcs invade this country, additionaly the cold-drakes of the north breed in this territory and are growing dangerously high in population (war of Dain I against the drakes in TA 2589). Therefore the Gray Dwarfs must have been experts in fighting against huge orc armys which outnumber them tenfolds and monsters . And thats the Gray warriors specialty: Fighting huge armys of weak enemys.

Implementation:
The Unit should cost about 300-400 ressources and they should be armed with a two-handed axe. They should serve a similar purpose like the weaponmasters (the ones with the doublebladed battlestaff) of the Imladris who are proficient in batteling large groups of weak enemies. I suggest one active ability and I have currently two in mind:
Either on activation a low AoE cleave effect (focus even more on masses) or a volley of throwing axes onto one enemy, monsters get bonus damage (focus on masses and the occational troll). Design ideas: https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,34308.0.html

Final words: I think that the Fortress is not viable at the moment and it is mostly replaced by the cheaper, easier to defend standard outpost. My wish is, that in future  the fortress will be as often built as the standard outpost or Esgaroth/Dale. Please dont be afraid to give constructive criticism and suggestions to make this concept better.

Thanks for reading  xD
« Letzte Änderung: 6. Sep 2017, 10:56 von Fancy Lad School »

Walküre

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Re: Ered Mithrin
« Antwort #1 am: 28. Aug 2017, 00:39 »
Danke für die Übersetzung deines Vorschlags im deutschen Forum. Es ist immer positiv, dass mehr Konzepte in den beiden Teilen unseres Forums gelesen werden können. Ich habe auch versucht, das zu tun.

Only, I would like to know something of particular note: are you sure to start with the opening of a poll? The custom concerning polls, as I may speak on behalf of the English Community, compels one to seek for the development of a constructive debate, as the initial step; then, once a proposal gets finalised, it may be possible to submit it to the judgement of the public forum (in this case, with a poll/ballot). Should your suggestions be a finalised concept, it would be completely fine. It's just for the sake of the discussion.

Fancy Lad School

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Re: Ered Mithrin
« Antwort #2 am: 28. Aug 2017, 11:15 »
I consider this proposal pretty final, as I already got a lot of useful suggestions from the german forum and rethought much of the original concept but as for now i also want the opinions of the English speaking community in order to create a well balanced and unique system.
So dont be shy to add your own ideas or if you disagree with some changes please dont hesitate to share them with us!

Walküre

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Re: Ered Mithrin
« Antwort #3 am: 28. Aug 2017, 11:24 »
Ok, I have thus removed the poll, as a temporary measure. When you deem the time proper, feel free to open a new poll.

Fancy Lad School

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Re: Ered Mithrin
« Antwort #4 am: 28. Aug 2017, 11:39 »
Many thanks

Fredius

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Re: Ered Mithrin
« Antwort #5 am: 28. Aug 2017, 14:55 »
I agree with this idea Fancy :). I myself noticed as well that Ered Mithrin's units are generally pretty weak, especially when they're supposed to give a lot of damage to Monster units, so I definetly welcome your proposed changes. I also agree that the Dragonslayers are in need of a change; I personally find most single units that aren't Monsters a bit problematic, because they require a lot of micro-ing to keep them alive. Having them as a banner carrier pretty much solves this problem imo. If the Gondor captain system doesn't work, then they could perhaps appear when the Zealots/Hunters/Grey Dwarves reach level 5, like with Isengard's captains.

Regarding the Grey Dwarves, they would certainly be fit to replace the Dragon Slayers if those were to become banner carriers. However, I would personally give them a different name, because Grey Dwarves sounds a bit generic imo :P. I don't have a name to suggest at the moment, but I will try thinking of one later (or someone else can come up with one).

Fancy Lad School

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Re: Ered Mithrin Overhaul
« Antwort #6 am: 30. Aug 2017, 11:40 »
Thanks for your reply, I used Grey Dwarfs just as term to describe the dwarfs in the fortress where as the unit is called "Grey Warriors" but I do agrre that the name isnt very sophisticated  :P.
I want to highlight a certain unyielding fashion about this units, these are guys who are eager to fight even if all odds are against them.
I have some name suggestions which could obviously be enhanced:
Grey Vanguard or just Dwarven Vanguard or simply only Vanguard
Survivors
Dwarven Berserkers
Axe Heerbann (from Rome Total War the franks had a similar unit called Axe Heerbann)

dkbluewizard

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Re: Ered Mithrin Overhaul
« Antwort #7 am: 30. Aug 2017, 17:55 »
Wow, a very intriguing and neat idea that I think is needed for balance. This is Lore worthy! But I also like how you individualized the pricing to help the defense of the building (like Imladris). I do feel Ered Mithrin needs a better update.

I agree with everything stated but question the Dragon Slayer captain upgrade. I like it, but I also liked how they filled the hero slot for this outpost. I guess since we can have only three and they would function like Erekenbrand, Elfhelm, and Grimbold--would they not get their own individual icons as well? I am just curious.

Overall, this is neat and I totally support it!
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Fancy Lad School

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Re: Ered Mithrin Overhaul
« Antwort #8 am: 30. Aug 2017, 18:47 »
I have thought about giving them a similar purpose as the Rohan-captains but the thing is, that the Rohan-captains are gamewise a hero unit and one faction can only have 15 heroes buildable at once. Due to the reason that the dwarf faction does consist of literally 3 factions and their heroes, these 15 hero slots are already used up. So the above solutions as either upgraded banner bearers or that they can be combined with troops is rather a compromise.
And it gives a sense of uniquness because a similar system isnt used anywhere else

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Ered Mithrin Overhaul
« Antwort #9 am: 31. Aug 2017, 22:37 »
I like your ideas Fancy ;) I think they would make the subfaction more unique.
I have also two suggestion:

- if there are problems about combination of Dragonslayers with units could be a good thing to make them purchasable in place of banner carrier, just like Lake Town soldiers captains maybe with an higher cost ;). The Dragonslayers would make the troops fearless.

- To give a stronger characterisation, i would give to any type of unit of Ered Mithrin a passive ability named "Equipment of the Grey Mountains" (or something like that) :
 -Level 1: +10% attack, +20% armor, and +25% fire reistance against monster.
 -With forged blades attack bonus is increased to +20%.
 -With heavy armor, armor and fire resistance bonuses incresed to +40% and +50%.

- the armor of EM are crafted to fight against monster, especially dragons, that's why i put also the fire resistance ;) The values can be changed, of course. Also i agree to increase the cost of Zelotes from 200 to 250-300, in function of how many new abilites they could have with the overhaul  xD.

I like the new unit you crafted :) Fredius is right they deserve a more proper name :)



Fancy Lad School

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Re: Ered Mithrin Overhaul
« Antwort #10 am: 1. Sep 2017, 10:46 »
Thanks for the reply Aule!

If the dragonslayers just replace the regular banner bearers-Upgrade, then it is not possible (I think) to limit their number. I want to limit them to a maximum of 3 and the troops which will receive the dragonslayers should be considerably buffed.

A resistance to fire is not realy lore-friendly and would be rather useless for the Ered Mithrin dwarfs because the last "real" fire-breathing dragon was Smaug. The cold-drakes in Ered Mithrin are unable to breath fire (hence the name "Cold-Drakes" and rather rely on their physical strength and size. That is the reason why I specifically dont want to give them fire protection.
One could speculate that some of these drakes did not lose their magical abilitites and are still able to breath vapor, mist or smoke but these types if they even existed would be extremly rare. And cold drakes dont have wings, they are land dwellers.

But the Ered Mithrin equipment in general is a good idea but adding it atop the active abilitys I have planned would be overpowered. Maybe we can come up with a solution to integrate that in a balanced fashion.
« Letzte Änderung: 1. Sep 2017, 11:00 von Fancy Lad School »

Melkor Bauglir

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Re: Ered Mithrin Overhaul
« Antwort #11 am: 1. Sep 2017, 11:24 »
Some things so point out:

1) It's obviously possible to limit Dragonslayers, but should you be able to combine them with other troops, it won't work anymore (i.e. Lightbringer problem of 3.8.1). It could be possible that you can solve this via scripts, but I'm not certain of this.
(The basic problem is that the Dragonslayer-horde (containing only the Dragonslayer himself (same system as Mordor's Overseers) would be the limited unit, combining them with another horde creates an entirely different horde. Thus no Dragonslayer exists anymore and thus you can again recruit more of them.)
2) Serious question: How do you even make a medieval armor fireproof? ;) I'd buy that by combining thick leather and dwarven metal you might be able to protect yourself against limited regular fire, but dragonfire is so ridiculously hot, it's certainly not worth the try, considering you are then wearing a significantly heavier armor. Just some logical sidenote.
Apart from that: Doesn't the swordsmen's ability already grant them insane fire-resistance?
Also, in gameplay terms this would make the Ered Mithrin exclusively stronger against fire arrows, since dragons are so incredible distant from Misty Mountains core, I doubt you'll see the Firedrakes often! Meaning we have a unit whose speciality is monsters whose resistance makes them strong in the usual infantry mass-brawls. (Especially, since only Mordor combines fire and monsters in huge quantities.)
3) I pretty certain you misunderstood the problem with the hero limit following this line:
Zitat
I have thought about giving them a similar purpose as the Rohan-captains but the thing is, that the Rohan-captains are gamewise a hero unit and one faction can only have 15 heroes buildable at once.
The problem is the respawn system which can only hold a specific amount of heroes. In technical terms a unit that appears at the bottom edge of the screen doesn't need to have anything to do with a respawn system -since the Dragonslayers won't use it, there is certainly no problem of this sort!

Apart from these 2 points of whom I'm not certain how important or relevant they are, the concept sounds like an improvement. Eventhough, I'd hardly suggest designing the Citadel as a cheap brick on the map which blocks an entire chokepoint by itself. (Considering the absolutely insane defensive boosts the dwarves get from the spellbook.)


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: Hmm, concerning point 1) -it might actually work! Using the old "EquivalentTo"-trick you could make different units share the same limit. I'm not entirely sure though if that'd work, there might be some exploits to the system.

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Ered Mithrin Overhaul
« Antwort #12 am: 1. Sep 2017, 13:38 »

2) Serious question: How do you even make a medieval armor fireproof? ;) I'd buy that by combining thick leather and dwarven metal you might be able to protect yourself against limited regular fire, but dragonfire is so ridiculously hot, it's certainly not worth the try, considering you are then wearing a significantly heavier armor. Just some logical sidenote.
Apart from that: Doesn't the swordsmen's ability already grant them insane fire-resistance?
Also, in gameplay terms this would make the Ered Mithrin exclusively stronger against fire arrows, since dragons are so incredible distant from Misty Mountains core, I doubt you'll see the Firedrakes often! Meaning we have a unit whose speciality is monsters whose resistance makes them strong in the usual infantry mass-brawls. (Especially, since only Mordor combines fire and monsters in huge quantities.)

-I apologize Melkor, i didn't explain myself well about the armor: apart of good engineering in which the dwarves excel for sure, a normal armor even if very good cannot have any chance against fire of dragons (i'm preparing an exam about fire, great heat fluxes and high temperatures can melt everything  [ugly]). My idea was something more similar to the only slice of magic we can see in the dwarves culture: runes. A rune-protected armor could have some chances (some chances doesn't mean IMMUNE, be it clear ;) ). That's a more rune-matter than smithery matter. I mean, think about dragon slayer: if that is their name, they must have some unique protection to fight (in melee) against monsters far bigger than a dwarf, even in case these monster cannot breath fire  [ugly]
Apart of the "fire-characterisation", the bonuses in armor and attack makes sense i think, or at least some active ability which has to be really effective, as Fancy said ;)

Zitat
Apart from that: Doesn't the swordsmen's ability already grant them insane fire-resistance?
What abiliy are you talking about?

I think MM will have non-flying fire drakes; but yes, the contact with fire is something rare in game.
Even now that Fancy remind me about cold drakes, which they can combat only via melee attack, my idea makes less sense in a lore and "geographical" sense.

-about Dragonslayer, i'm not updated about technical issues, but if there are no problem in combination matters than a combination system is the best idea, to also limit them in number.
« Letzte Änderung: 1. Sep 2017, 13:50 von AulëTheSmith »

Fancy Lad School

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Re: Ered Mithrin Overhaul
« Antwort #13 am: 1. Sep 2017, 13:57 »
Many thanks for your educated insights and especially for the clarification on the hero system Melkor!
As for the rohan-captain-system: I think we are better off if we combine the dragonslayers, because it would be quite strange if the dragonslayers could summon the same units as the fortress can produce. Apart from that I dont want them to be exactly the same like the Rohan-captains.

As for the cheap brick problem: Consider that Dale/Escaroth and the Dunedain Outpost only cost 800 resources, starting with 4000 hp and when fully upgraded these structures produce immense amounts of ressources with an hp pool of 6000.

Maybe a slight nerf can help here: The fortress costs now 1250 to build and starts out with 8000 hp (instead of 10000) the level 2 upgrade will now cost 750 ressources (1000 before) and will additionally yield the 2000 hp in order to get to the 10000.

« Letzte Änderung: 1. Sep 2017, 14:01 von Fancy Lad School »

Walküre

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Re: Ered Mithrin Overhaul
« Antwort #14 am: 1. Sep 2017, 14:12 »
Why would the idea of a fire-resisting armour be so much out of character for the Dwarves? I mean, I am certainly conscious of the particular role of physics in Tolkien's universe, which is merged well with the thematic elements of fantasy, in general. That's why Arda boasts a fair level of realistic motive. Anyway, I would never discuss the wonders of science with an engineer xD

Nevertheless, the involvement of magic could have its own propriety in the logic of the proposal, even though Dwarves are not much used to crafting magical tools; this is, instead, a quality this race has often envied, when it came to the Eldar, who are the ones renowned for such features. Dwarven craftsmanship and mastery of matter might, however, comprise some magical traits too. Think about invisible gates, or armours which may defend one from blades that could tear a boar asunder (or from the venomous sting of Ungoliant's offspring). It's not that I want to start a debate centred on the degree of magic in Dwarven arts, but I find some of the artefacts and skills of this kind not so much in tune with standard physics. A reasoning dealing with supernatural reasons (namely, over the horizon of Men) seems to me quite sufficient and complete in itself.