[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Dwarven Suggestions

Ered Mithrin Overhaul

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Fancy Lad School:
Thanks for the reply Aule!

If the dragonslayers just replace the regular banner bearers-Upgrade, then it is not possible (I think) to limit their number. I want to limit them to a maximum of 3 and the troops which will receive the dragonslayers should be considerably buffed.

A resistance to fire is not realy lore-friendly and would be rather useless for the Ered Mithrin dwarfs because the last "real" fire-breathing dragon was Smaug. The cold-drakes in Ered Mithrin are unable to breath fire (hence the name "Cold-Drakes" and rather rely on their physical strength and size. That is the reason why I specifically dont want to give them fire protection.
One could speculate that some of these drakes did not lose their magical abilitites and are still able to breath vapor, mist or smoke but these types if they even existed would be extremly rare. And cold drakes dont have wings, they are land dwellers.

But the Ered Mithrin equipment in general is a good idea but adding it atop the active abilitys I have planned would be overpowered. Maybe we can come up with a solution to integrate that in a balanced fashion.

Melkor Bauglir:
Some things so point out:

1) It's obviously possible to limit Dragonslayers, but should you be able to combine them with other troops, it won't work anymore (i.e. Lightbringer problem of 3.8.1). It could be possible that you can solve this via scripts, but I'm not certain of this.
(The basic problem is that the Dragonslayer-horde (containing only the Dragonslayer himself (same system as Mordor's Overseers) would be the limited unit, combining them with another horde creates an entirely different horde. Thus no Dragonslayer exists anymore and thus you can again recruit more of them.)
2) Serious question: How do you even make a medieval armor fireproof? ;) I'd buy that by combining thick leather and dwarven metal you might be able to protect yourself against limited regular fire, but dragonfire is so ridiculously hot, it's certainly not worth the try, considering you are then wearing a significantly heavier armor. Just some logical sidenote.
Apart from that: Doesn't the swordsmen's ability already grant them insane fire-resistance?
Also, in gameplay terms this would make the Ered Mithrin exclusively stronger against fire arrows, since dragons are so incredible distant from Misty Mountains core, I doubt you'll see the Firedrakes often! Meaning we have a unit whose speciality is monsters whose resistance makes them strong in the usual infantry mass-brawls. (Especially, since only Mordor combines fire and monsters in huge quantities.)
3) I pretty certain you misunderstood the problem with the hero limit following this line:

--- Zitat ---I have thought about giving them a similar purpose as the Rohan-captains but the thing is, that the Rohan-captains are gamewise a hero unit and one faction can only have 15 heroes buildable at once.
--- Ende Zitat ---
The problem is the respawn system which can only hold a specific amount of heroes. In technical terms a unit that appears at the bottom edge of the screen doesn't need to have anything to do with a respawn system -since the Dragonslayers won't use it, there is certainly no problem of this sort!

Apart from these 2 points of whom I'm not certain how important or relevant they are, the concept sounds like an improvement. Eventhough, I'd hardly suggest designing the Citadel as a cheap brick on the map which blocks an entire chokepoint by itself. (Considering the absolutely insane defensive boosts the dwarves get from the spellbook.)


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: Hmm, concerning point 1) -it might actually work! Using the old "EquivalentTo"-trick you could make different units share the same limit. I'm not entirely sure though if that'd work, there might be some exploits to the system.

AulëTheSmith:

--- Zitat von: Melkor Bauglir am  1. Sep 2017, 11:24 ---
2) Serious question: How do you even make a medieval armor fireproof? ;) I'd buy that by combining thick leather and dwarven metal you might be able to protect yourself against limited regular fire, but dragonfire is so ridiculously hot, it's certainly not worth the try, considering you are then wearing a significantly heavier armor. Just some logical sidenote.
Apart from that: Doesn't the swordsmen's ability already grant them insane fire-resistance?
Also, in gameplay terms this would make the Ered Mithrin exclusively stronger against fire arrows, since dragons are so incredible distant from Misty Mountains core, I doubt you'll see the Firedrakes often! Meaning we have a unit whose speciality is monsters whose resistance makes them strong in the usual infantry mass-brawls. (Especially, since only Mordor combines fire and monsters in huge quantities.)

--- Ende Zitat ---

-I apologize Melkor, i didn't explain myself well about the armor: apart of good engineering in which the dwarves excel for sure, a normal armor even if very good cannot have any chance against fire of dragons (i'm preparing an exam about fire, great heat fluxes and high temperatures can melt everything  [ugly]). My idea was something more similar to the only slice of magic we can see in the dwarves culture: runes. A rune-protected armor could have some chances (some chances doesn't mean IMMUNE, be it clear ;) ). That's a more rune-matter than smithery matter. I mean, think about dragon slayer: if that is their name, they must have some unique protection to fight (in melee) against monsters far bigger than a dwarf, even in case these monster cannot breath fire  [ugly]
Apart of the "fire-characterisation", the bonuses in armor and attack makes sense i think, or at least some active ability which has to be really effective, as Fancy said ;)


--- Zitat ---Apart from that: Doesn't the swordsmen's ability already grant them insane fire-resistance?
--- Ende Zitat ---
What abiliy are you talking about?

I think MM will have non-flying fire drakes; but yes, the contact with fire is something rare in game.
Even now that Fancy remind me about cold drakes, which they can combat only via melee attack, my idea makes less sense in a lore and "geographical" sense.

-about Dragonslayer, i'm not updated about technical issues, but if there are no problem in combination matters than a combination system is the best idea, to also limit them in number.

Fancy Lad School:
Many thanks for your educated insights and especially for the clarification on the hero system Melkor!
As for the rohan-captain-system: I think we are better off if we combine the dragonslayers, because it would be quite strange if the dragonslayers could summon the same units as the fortress can produce. Apart from that I dont want them to be exactly the same like the Rohan-captains.

As for the cheap brick problem: Consider that Dale/Escaroth and the Dunedain Outpost only cost 800 resources, starting with 4000 hp and when fully upgraded these structures produce immense amounts of ressources with an hp pool of 6000.

Maybe a slight nerf can help here: The fortress costs now 1250 to build and starts out with 8000 hp (instead of 10000) the level 2 upgrade will now cost 750 ressources (1000 before) and will additionally yield the 2000 hp in order to get to the 10000.

Walküre:
Why would the idea of a fire-resisting armour be so much out of character for the Dwarves? I mean, I am certainly conscious of the particular role of physics in Tolkien's universe, which is merged well with the thematic elements of fantasy, in general. That's why Arda boasts a fair level of realistic motive. Anyway, I would never discuss the wonders of science with an engineer xD

Nevertheless, the involvement of magic could have its own propriety in the logic of the proposal, even though Dwarves are not much used to crafting magical tools; this is, instead, a quality this race has often envied, when it came to the Eldar, who are the ones renowned for such features. Dwarven craftsmanship and mastery of matter might, however, comprise some magical traits too. Think about invisible gates, or armours which may defend one from blades that could tear a boar asunder (or from the venomous sting of Ungoliant's offspring). It's not that I want to start a debate centred on the degree of magic in Dwarven arts, but I find some of the artefacts and skills of this kind not so much in tune with standard physics. A reasoning dealing with supernatural reasons (namely, over the horizon of Men) seems to me quite sufficient and complete in itself.

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