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Autor Thema: The Goblins faction  (Gelesen 972 mal)

dkbluewizard

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The Goblins faction
« am: 9. Sep 2017, 05:38 »
Hello everyone,

For a long time now I struggled with this idea and I think this would benefit the Edain Mod, team, and community. I have devised a canonical faction that would serve the purposes of everything that we want as well as a new competitive faction. Please open up on my friends account to view in google drive.

Look forward to the feedback and thank you.

dkbluewizard.




https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByiHrrUNuhb9d09JN2pCSURhTWc/view?usp=sharing
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Julio229

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Re: The Goblins faction
« Antwort #1 am: 9. Sep 2017, 12:59 »
The amount of work you've put into this is great! I specially love how you were able to include the Lossoth in a good way, as they were difficult to include in the existing factions (except Arnor, probably), but they really fit this way.

Another pro for the faction is that it doesn't take a faction slot, which is a big advantage, and everyone is able to get what they want: If you want the Defiler, the Great Goblin, you use one faction, and if you want the dragons, you choose the other.

The only thing I'd say is I still think the Balrog shouldn't be a permanent hero if nerfing him is needed (as I think having him as he would be right now is really fitting for him) , but nonetheless, what you've done here is great!

Awesome work!  :P


Walküre

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Re: The Goblins faction
« Antwort #2 am: 9. Sep 2017, 18:01 »
Initially, I shall make usage of the introduction of this comment of mine to acknowledge, Blue, the daunting effort you have undergone in coming up with a very grand of a proposition, which is to entail the addition of new content in a general scheme that has already been planned thoroughly since the release of the opening 4.0 patch. Albeit the official article belonging to another Edain era, as I cherish this definition a very good deal, the premises which are to found and sustain the holistic architecture of the Goblins might still be deemed well valid, even today. Reasonable and absolutely well-thought, as the original plan has been exactly envisaged. I know very well the strenuous fatigue of conceiving more structured proposals, and I thus rejoice at the opportunity to debate one of them here, in the very forum, for this space is undoubtedly nourished by ideas of the most diverse kind. I am therefore confident that we are all to set the foundations of a positive discussion, whatever its outcome may be and wherever it may lead us.

Henceforth, it is of imperative note that I be the clearest possible about my personal stance on the entirety of the suggestion: I am not convinced by the arguments which have been hitherto brought as pillars of the new faction.

The point revolving around the sheer number of evil and good factions I find very much flawed in principle. It seems to me a non sequitur assumption to make and of very little avail equally, were we to consider things altogether. The Good naturally boasts more diversity in terms of characters and scopes in the game for elaborating new possibilities, being multiple realms and heroes allied against not so many foes (Sauron represents the heart of the wicked side, with perhaps Isengard as the sole secondary antagonist that could come close to Mordor, and both the two players in the geopolitics of Middle-earth are then surrounded by a wide range of minor auxiliaries). Just to stick to and remain fine-tuned with the atmosphere and context of the War of the Ring, the prime timeline, the attempt of evening up the balance of mere numbers between the two sides doesn't sound a proper idea, nor do I really perceive the necessity of that to happen. By the way, given that this new faction is not to occupy any slot, I find the argument of even lesser beneficial effect for the proposal.

Furthermore, I would like to address the conceptual motive of the concept, in the widest and most comprehensive perspective. I believe there could be many analogies which one might find with the ever-green (pardon the pun) independent Mirkwood. It is de facto a very similar case: I can't think about anything necessary or compelling, when we discuss the hypothetical focus on the Grey Mountains as an evil faction. Being differentiation a paramount property of the Edain Mod, of the utmost priority, I would say that such inclusion would result redundant and not guided by sound reasons (with a very clear direction in mind). All appears to be, in my eyes, another Misty Mountains faction clothed with different robes, just to insert hither and thither patterns that are already present in the actual design of the game (Orcs, trolls, loose and feral beasts), alongside disrupting the coherence of the faction's spellbook with the intention of rendering the fiery Maia a permanent feature. If you remember, Blue, not only did I oppose the Balrog becoming a Ring hero, but I had also criticised the prospect of him being made (weakened and halved in might) a permanent hero. Correct me if I am in error, but I recall you having accepted the inexorable situational connotation of the Balrog. How did this new proposal take those arguments and debates into account? By the way, as for what deals with spells, I don't think that giant worms could ever replace for the better such a mighty and iconic spell as the summoning of Durin's Bane; moreover, lore-wise, the summoning of Nameless Creatures seems to be a stark violation of the canons, in that they have never served anyone but themselves, for they are the omega-type beasts by definition, and they ought not to be mistaken as Maiar or other fell creatures at the service of evil forces (they are in fact deadly for both sides, with no pledge of allegiance). The Watcher constitutes an exceptional case, because it comes from the vanilla and we actually have enough information about the character (needless to say, it appears on the screen too and simply evokes the atmosphere of the renowned Moria sequence).

In order to put more flesh on the bones of that famous Moria sequence, I also oppose the idea of Moria buildings being utilised for other purposes that are not Moria only. The art and essence of those structures was marvellously fashioned on the eerie nature of the mines, and by the ever-present wonderful scenes of the cinematographic adaptation which pertain to the quest inside those galleries and solitary halls. Splendid moments in the film, in tune with the purest spirit of Lord of the Rings. The Dwarven system is a strict one and thus forces to share the initial base. This would be improper in the own context of the Misty Mountains faction, whose own system makes it possible to explore the multifaceted traits of the material we have been provided with by the books and, especially, by the films, with Moria as the beating heart on which everything is centred. That's why, in nuce, I don't agree with the said founding premises of your concept, and with the consequences they are to lead us to: a confused restructuring that alters a design which fares well, leaving aside the minor overhauls on which the Edain Team is to work. The current foundations of the faction are sound as they are now, and this needn't be changed for the worse, as my erstwhile passages reiterate.

As a last note, you mentioned verbal aggressions in past discussions. What are you referring to, exactly? I don't remember the tone of the debate worsening so much, so that all turned into aggressive behaviour. Also, I'm not quite sure what you meant with 'Tolkienists' and 'Non-Tolkienists' in the list of pros and cons.
« Letzte Änderung: 10. Sep 2017, 13:37 von Walküre »

Julio229

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Re: The Goblins faction
« Antwort #3 am: 9. Sep 2017, 18:19 »
Walk, you brought great points here, and I'm positive too that this can become a positive debate or discussion. I agree with many of your points, and I mostly like the concept, so, even if I'm not good at debating or whatever, I'll be sure to follow the discussion that can come out of this!

Just to add something, what you said about Moria is true, that unique look should be reserved only for them, as it is too iconic to be used in another way (the Moria sequence is probably my favourite part on the films, too). And about Balrog, I'm still against it being a permanent hero because of the reasons you mentioned. A nerfed Balrog wouldn't make justice to the nature of the character, and making it permanent would include nerfing him for sure.

Anyways, I'm eager to see what path this conversation will take!


Fredius

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Re: The Goblins faction
« Antwort #4 am: 9. Sep 2017, 18:22 »
After reading the proposal I must say that there are some major issues. Before I post my arguments I would like to inform you that I am not against a bigger representation of the Grey Mountains in the mod. However, the way it is set up in this concept is, in my opinion, not the right way to implement them. I agree with the points Walküre posted above, and there are some other things that I would like to point out as well.

First and foremost; the Lossoth. This is a major canonical flaw in your proposal, because the Lossoth were never described as a people that fight for Evil causes. They even helped the last king of Arthedain, Arvedui, who tried to escape the destruction of his kingdom. So having the Lossoth be represented as Scavengers into an Evil faction makes no sense to be honest. Furthermore, the Lossoth are described to have lived in the Cape of Forochel, which doesn’t even come close to the Misty Mountains, let alone the Grey Mountains. So having them as a slave unit would make, distance wise, as much sense as the Grey Mountains having slaves from Rohan.

Second problem, which is already pointed out by Walküre, but on which I would like to expand upon, is the issue of Moria buildings in the Grey Mountains. Walküre already stated that having the Moria buildings be the main base of the Grey Mountains would remove the iconic cinematographic uniqueness that Moria in the Misty Mountains has. To me, this argument also counts for Moria’s units. I can’t imagine giving the armour of the Moria Goblins to the Grey Mountains’ Orcs, and would prefer them to have a unique design.

I myself also imagined the Grey Mountains to have a different unique architecture, and Edain already showed that beautifully through the Ered Mithrin outpost. This means that the ruins of the Grey Mountains Dwarves, which the Grey Mountains Orcs are using for their own purposes now, should look similar to the Ered Mithrin Outpost, not the Moria buildings. But this is engine wise not possible, because the starting base can, according to ET, not be changed, else we had unique bases for every Dwarven sub faction as well. The Grey Mountains as a starting base is therefore, in my opinion, out of the question.

And last but not least, Tom, Bert and Bill as ring-heroes is not something I support. I can’t even think of any powers that they would get :/.

So all in all, I’m against this current proposal because of aforementioned reasons. However, like I said, I am not against giving the Grey Mountains a bigger role, but it shouldn't be so big as to become a whole new faction.

dkbluewizard

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Re: The Goblins faction
« Antwort #5 am: 10. Sep 2017, 17:23 »
This is all I will say about it. The War of Dwarves and Dragons as well as other Goblins fighting in the Grey Mountains with the remnants of Durin's Folk is canonical. Moria ruins and Grey Mountain's ruins would be similar given that they are both of Durin's Folk thus have a significant building structure.

As far as Lossoth is concerned they are not just in the Cape of Forochel they are also in Forodwaith or the Northern Waste (right next to the Grey Mountains). Thus is why I selected them and it represented the north quite well. And yes they were not evil, but that is why they are included as slaves, how else would we be able to give them representation or get them into the mod?

In regards to the Balrog, I didn't want him with the dragons for canonical and balance reasons which all of you pointed out initially. Why not just say Misty Mountains win? When you can drop dragons, balrogs, trolls, and giants--I am sorry but that is really hard to counter with any faction. Unless you are all telling me that the Balrog will be so nerfed for the faction that his summon doesn't matter at all, which in essence doesn't do him justice either, in which case having him as a permanent hero without dragons or mountain giants would be better.

The three trolls as Ring heroes was just a suggestion for the time being. Nothing set in stone.

Diewalkure, you have stated innumerably that the Misty Mountains albeit the Goblin faction is a wild faction. So having the Nameless is not uncanonical as they existed underground and gnawed at the world, Grey and Misty Mountains faction represent the underground and ruins of the world. If going by what you said about them "never serving anyone but themselves." Then why would we have Smaug, the Balrog, Bill, Bert, Tom, etc. be in this faction? LOL.

All in all I just wanted to see what other people thought, and nothing really surprised me here, so I got what I wanted and needed now. Have fun with Edain Mod.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

AulëTheSmith

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Re: The Goblins faction
« Antwort #6 am: 10. Sep 2017, 18:12 »
All in all I just wanted to see what other people thought, and nothing really surprised me here, so I got what I wanted and needed now. Have fun with Edain Mod.

Chill out my Blue friend ;) I think we all appreciate your work. I agree with the fact that there's no need of a new faction, but i like some of your ideas. Why not try to implement it in a good way with the current (despite 4 years old) MM concept? For example a camp named "Ruins of the Grey mountains"  ;).
I cannot say anything about Lossoth because i have not lore knowledge on this matter.

As for having a lot of monsters at the same time: it is supposed to be the only faction with so many powerful creatures. And also (a part of the mighty Balrog) more or less any faction has some tool to counteract monsters.



Fredius

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Re: The Goblins faction
« Antwort #7 am: 10. Sep 2017, 18:27 »
As far as Lossoth is concerned they are not just in the Cape of Forochel they are also in Forodwaith or the Northern Waste (right next to the Grey Mountains). Thus is why I selected them and it represented the north quite well. And yes they were not evil, but that is why they are included as slaves, how else would we be able to give them representation or get them into the mod?

According to the article of Tolkien Gateway about the Northern Wastes, the remnants of the Forodwaith, who lived in the Northern Wastes, moved to the Cape of Forochel as a result of the rise of Angmar. These remnants are, according to the same source, the Lossoth. Both articles explain that the Lossoth now live in the Cape of Forochel, and not in the Northern Wastes anylonger, so the Lossoth functioning as slaves or as scavengers for the Grey Mountains is highly unlikely. If the Lossoth are to be represented in the mod, then the best way, imo, is to have them as a summon for Arvedui, or something different in the Arnor faction, because they actually helped the king of Arnor in the lore. They are a good folk, not a bad one.

In regards to the Balrog, I didn't want him with the dragons for canonical and balance reasons which all of you pointed out initially. Why not just say Misty Mountains win? When you can drop dragons, balrogs, trolls, and giants--I am sorry but that is really hard to counter with any faction. Unless you are all telling me that the Balrog will be so nerfed for the faction that his summon doesn't matter at all, which in essence doesn't do him justice either, in which case having him as a permanent hero without dragons or mountain giants would be better.

We can't discuss balance problems unless we have played the faction in its current state. I'm pretty sure the Edain team can balance the faction just fine.

Why not try to implement it in a good way with the current (despite 4 years old) MM concept? For example a camp named "Ruins of the Grey mountains"  ;).

A Grey Mountains camp for the Misty Mountains is actually already present in the faction through the Dragon Lair outpost :). I thus believe there is nothing else that can present the Grey Mountains in a better way than them, unless the team decides to give the Grey Mountains their own unique Orcs and Monsters.
« Letzte Änderung: 10. Sep 2017, 19:08 von Fredius »

Walküre

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Re: The Goblins faction
« Antwort #8 am: 10. Sep 2017, 18:55 »
Diewalkure, you have stated innumerably that the Misty Mountains albeit the Goblin faction is a wild faction. So having the Nameless is not uncanonical as they existed underground and gnawed at the world, Grey and Misty Mountains faction represent the underground and ruins of the world. If going by what you said about them "never serving anyone but themselves." Then why would we have Smaug, the Balrog, Bill, Bert, Tom, etc. be in this faction? LOL.

Being endowed with a wild characterisation doesn't automatically imply that something has no logic in its own design. The random addition of monsters and elements divergent from each other was the exact legacy of the vanilla that the Edain Team was trying to rectify. Not to mention the eventuality of having unnecessary replicas in a same faction. Sometimes, less is better, if there is very little of unique character that might be implemented. And this comes from a person who is very fond of details and complex dynamics, as the ones which the Edain Mod is renowned for. Furthermore, the list of characters you mentioned are not Nameless Things, being the latter an exceptional case in the lore, as I was trying to demonstrate in my reasoning.

All in all I just wanted to see what other people thought, and nothing really surprised me here, so I got what I wanted and needed now. Have fun with Edain Mod.

In the words of previous comments of mine in other threads, I shall repeat this: if there is something, even the apparently least meaningful thing, that bothers you a good deal, you ought to make us aware of what you deem annoying or simply wrong. Continuing the series of passive-aggressive or disappointed remarks won't help us all make it through issues. It is to worsen them, on the contrary.

I'm sure that you know well, and you have seen that with your very eyes, that we are capable of very grand propositions for this forum, when the way is open and anyone participating is willing to contribute; this means that one should be ready to concede some things and subject one's thoughts to the judgement of other people. Namely, what we have gone through during the thorough debates of concepts like the new factions or Narya. Otherwise, when the way is shut, one could never hope to make something useful out of an intransigent attitude, to which claiming to divide people between Tolkienists and Non-Tolkienists belongs equally. And I can assure you that I'm not the sole who had similar impressions. I'm honestly quite tired of seeking to appease people, lest someone feel offended for the fact of negative feedback or even personally attacked. There have been far worse and more heated debates on this forum, and we always succeeded in going through them with the just spirit; a constructive spirit. It all depends on you, though.

dkbluewizard

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Re: The Goblins faction
« Antwort #9 am: 10. Sep 2017, 19:20 »
Walkure, as stated I have all that I could need now, thank you for participating, but I really don't see the need to waste my time with this mod. I have bigger, and frankly better things to do than wait on a mod that updates very slowly. This was just an idea and nothing more, take it for what you will.

When it comes down to it, each have their own justifications whether it be lore worthy or not and continue down circular reasoning over and over again. I don't feel personally attacked, I feel like many others who have jumped ship, that this is just a mod--why get worked up about it? In the end does it do anything earth shattering or cool? No, it is just an old game that the majority of people in the world don't care to know about. That said, I think I will start focusing my time on more important things in life like the edain team does with their own endeavors. Hence the lack of updates. If you guys want to continue to come on here and debate it out, great. But as for me, I no longer see the need for something so mundane and whimsical.

Thanks for the info and all of you make it what you will. Peace out.

--dkbluewizard

Aule, if I was any more chill I would be in the Helcaraxë
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Walküre

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Re: The Goblins faction
« Antwort #10 am: 10. Sep 2017, 20:33 »
Blue, after our past misunderstandings, I really hoped you could benefit the forum with your coming here, and we did benefit this space. Denying your contribution would be dishonest and a bogus depiction of reality. Yet, I clearly sense, and your very words could not be more explanatory, that disappointment and a bit of resentment are profound feelings you must have borne and kept inside for quite a time. I reckon we have had to endure difficult times as a community, this year, after Ealendril's departure and the new restructuring of a couple of other things. If the issue lies in the slowness of this project's pace, there is not much I could tell but responding as I did numerous times to other people: this is a hobby, a wonderful passion, but still an activity which doesn't comprise coercion or pressure of some sort. One ought to recognise and accept the sheer state of things.

As for what pertains to debating in this forum, I dare infer that most of us continue lingering here for genuine passion as well. Albeit grim times and difficulties of diverse nature, which I have extensive experience of, we still remain here for the real pleasure of being part of a community that cherishes Arda and the BFME series. Even though many wait with increasing apprehension the release of news and newer information, we know that we belong to this community nonetheless and we often rejoice at rather common acts like discussing ideas or exchanging comments. Acts which permitted the birth of incredible concepts and, most importantly, significant bonds of friendship. I thus don't deem anything of what we do mundane nor whimsical, for the strength to persist is a virtue, in my eyes; the will to stick loyally to what you enjoy doing or participating in. As some long-time users of Modding Union might confirm, who have trodden the paths of these boards for five or more years. But I also understand that people may have different ideas and a substantially opposite approach; thus the number of members deciding to abandon this place.

Nevertheless, I don't wish to blame you for your choice. It is just your own will. We are the masters of our fate. Therefore, I shall bid thee farewell and a well-boding future for thy endeavours.

Regarding the very topic, I can no longer see the reason for it to remain open. I will thus proceed with its closure. Speaking about the Grinding Ice, the thread is to be frozen and secured by the lonesomeness of the ice, unless the very author returns, one day.

--- LOCKED ---