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Autor Thema: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities  (Gelesen 2822 mal)

Offline AulëTheSmith

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #15 am: 13. Okt 2017, 21:02 »
Like I said in the other thread, I agree :).


You are welcome to the new thread, Fredius The Black Numenorean  xD
Your name will be inserted in the in favour list   ;)

Offline dkbluewizard

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #16 am: 14. Okt 2017, 06:05 »
Aule you described things in detail and showcased your vision with superb precision. Like I said I am totally for it and this is perfect!

I know you Aule you are worthy...
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Offline TheDarkOne

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #17 am: 14. Okt 2017, 22:50 »
Everything seems quite fitting exept the Dragon Sickness passive ability. In my opinion, it's very controversial due to:
  • Need to keep Smaug near enemy buildings to make sure the ability works against them
  • Need to avoid keeping Smaug near your own buildings which is a massive backfire thing. If injured, he must flee back to regenerate and in this case your own economy may starve.
  • From what I understood Smaug is mid,~far mid, late game hero. Having such an effect upon economical structures may be almost irrelevant by that time.
  • This ability forces Smaug to be close to enemy encampment which threatens him greatly if the enemy has mass archers. Too wide radius can be simply OP. So this is a balance issue as well as gameplay problem.

Misty Mountains faction has a wide choice of units and spells of stealing resources or eco disruption at it's disposal. Let's not forget about that. Let Smaug be who he is, a huge mass slayer monstrocity. Also, having almost ALL units in this faction who can steal or affect an economy can be sick. I like your concept but I don't like the idea of Smaug being an all-rounder as well as I don't like this ability. However, I may suggest something here, because as I don't agree, there must be some kind of alternative.

As the ability was likely based on the themes of his greed and the desolation he makes, it's not all about desolation and death. It's likely more Khamul's thing. Smaug just makes everyone leave the place, acting as a threatening but sleeping force inside someone's domain. So he may still retain his eco structure affecting properties by having an ability, for example, like digging himself into an enemy eco or another outer building, reducing any income to 0 or disabling it's all functions and increasing the strength of all YOUR units around it as well as debuffing enemy units around. Or he can dig himself into your own tunnel to act as a debuffing force (if such an eco structure can be built on an outer settlement).

In short, I am for your whole concept excluding something mentioned above.

Offline AulëTheSmith

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #18 am: 15. Okt 2017, 01:10 »
Everything seems quite fitting exept the Dragon Sickness passive ability. In my opinion, it's very controversial due to:
  • Need to keep Smaug near enemy buildings to make sure the ability works against them
  • Need to avoid keeping Smaug near your own buildings which is a massive backfire thing. If injured, he must flee back to regenerate and in this case your own economy may starve.
  • From what I understood Smaug is mid,~far mid, late game hero. Having such an effect upon economical structures may be almost irrelevant by that time.
  • This ability forces Smaug to be close to enemy encampment which threatens him greatly if the enemy has mass archers. Too wide radius can be simply OP. So this is a balance issue as well as gameplay problem.

Hi TheDarkOne;
First of all, welcome to the discussion and thank you to have forwared your opinion here  :) :).

An important note,i'm sorry if it is not clearly written: the ability is meant to work only when Smaug is on the ground (i think is more logical that he cannot steal resources when in flight). When Smaug lands on the ground, he plunders everything around him without distinguish between enemy and allies. I think the fact that it works also against you is an important peculiarity because it captures well his careless and greedy character.

For the issue of balance, i repeat that the values can be adjusted to be punchy also in mid-late game. The right equilibrium can be found only by testing his ability  ;)


Misty Mountains faction has a wide choice of units and spells of stealing resources or eco disruption at it's disposal. Let's not forget about that. Let Smaug be who he is, a huge mass slayer monstrocity. Also, having almost ALL units in this faction who can steal or affect an economy can be sick. I like your concept but I don't like the idea of Smaug being an all-rounder as well as I don't like this ability. However, I may suggest something here, because as I don't agree, there must be some kind of alternative.
As the ability was likely based on the themes of his greed and the desolation he makes, it's not all about desolation and death. It's likely more Khamul's thing. Smaug just makes everyone leave the place, acting as a threatening but sleeping force inside someone's domain. So he may still retain his eco structure affecting properties by having an ability, for example, like digging himself into an enemy eco or another outer building, reducing any income to 0 or disabling it's all functions and increasing the strength of all YOUR units around it as well as debuffing enemy units around. Or he can dig himself into your own tunnel to act as a debuffing force (if such an eco structure can be built on an outer settlement).

As far as we know, the MM spellbook could change a lot with respect to the old versions (which are 4-5 years old by now). Above all if you take into account the new spellbooks' system  ;) ( I'm talking about the old "Scavengers" ability ;))
I don't want Smaug as a troop-supporter in any case. This role doesn't fit him.
For example in 3.8.1 he could upgrade units with heavy armor: it was quite absurd in my opinion, because Smaug wouldn't give a single piece of his treasure to anyone.

Anyhow, the idea about sort of digging or, saying it better, Smaug sneaking into greats halls/great mines to steal treasures, is not out of place. Anytime i think about this aspect of him, this particular sequence from The Hobbit An Unexpected journey (my favourite among the three movies) comes to my mind:


Said that, even if we have different views on this ability, i shall put you in the in favour list, specifing that you'd like to adjust or substitute "Dragon Sickness"  ;)
« Letzte Änderung: 15. Okt 2017, 01:14 von AulëTheSmith »

Offline TheDarkOne

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #19 am: 15. Okt 2017, 01:45 »

An important note,i'm sorry if it is not clearly written: the ability is meant to work only when Smaug is on the ground (i think is more logical that he cannot steal resources when in flight). When Smaug lands on the ground, he plunders everything around him without distinguish between enemy and allies. I think the fact that it works also against you is an important peculiarity because it captures well his careless and greedy character.

For the issue of balance, i repeat that the values can be adjusted to be punchy also in mid-late game. The right equilibrium can be found only by testing his ability  ;)

Making this ability working when he is not in the air makes the ability even more controversial because we have goblin plunderers who steal resources and destroy enemy buildings to eventually replace them with MM's own. Spamming basic orc fighters will also help. Constant eco harassment is very essential. Adding such an ability to Smaug feels like a filler and also, this ability may be too weak to be in Smaug's arsenal of powers, considering his status as a badass beast. Making it better may result in it being OP and even accurate adjustments won't help it. Smaug may be greedy but he doesn't care a bit about just some rubble, a bunch of resources. He cares about something more. Much more. Mountains of gold. So making him "steal" resources from some goblin tunnels or farms in game will be really out of character. I am not even sure about him being greedy. He simply trolled half or less of dwarven kind and took what he wanted because he simply could. Keep in mind that he is far from being a mindless creature. He is wise and I think that depicting him as greedy and being somewhat blinded by that would be an understatement. He is a mightly, ancient relic of power and dignity in his own ways, who happened to not have any plot armor because of the Hobbit plot.

So, in my honest opinion, this ability depicts him again as truly psychopatic and mindlessly greedy creature which I find to be somewhat offensive, this ability seems to be just a filler, because there may be better ways to express his (oh okay) specific trait of desire for immessurable wealth as well as having a faction, which in 2/3 of itself is forged and specialized entirely for plundering. Remember about other heroes who already may possess some abilities targeting an enemy's eco.

Offline dkbluewizard

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #20 am: 15. Okt 2017, 05:32 »
Then what do you propose Dark One, cause I can tell you honestly that

A. Smaug was in fact greedy and didn't want a single coin given to anyone.
B. He was smart but arrogance blinded him, as Aule shows. Smaug showed Bilbo his weak spot without even knowing it was there himself--so that adds to his spur of emotions.
C. Smartness doesn't cover everything, sometimes smartness is foregone for emotions. Read on Smaug vs Balrog for clarification on this statement.   8-|
D. Aule presented a very clear depiction of the character and a canoncially implemented way for the MM to use Smaug. I for one feel it is perfect for what Edain is trying to do with Smaug. So if you have something better, by all means, present it.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Offline Julio229

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #21 am: 15. Okt 2017, 11:30 »
Well, what can I say... I LOVE this concept. It even has the names of the abilities being Smaug quotes, which is something I wanted so much!

Count me in favour of this suggestion, Aulë! You truly are a masterful craftsman, as your Valar namesake :)

Offline TheDarkOne

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #22 am: 15. Okt 2017, 14:08 »
Then what do you propose Dark One, cause I can tell you honestly that

A. Smaug was in fact greedy and didn't want a single coin given to anyone.
B. He was smart but arrogance blinded him, as Aule shows. Smaug showed Bilbo his weak spot without even knowing it was there himself--so that adds to his spur of emotions.
C. Smartness doesn't cover everything, sometimes smartness is foregone for emotions. Read on Smaug vs Balrog for clarification on this statement.   8-|
D. Aule presented a very clear depiction of the character and a canoncially implemented way for the MM to use Smaug. I for one feel it is perfect for what Edain is trying to do with Smaug. So if you have something better, by all means, present it.

A. Doesn't depict him as any psychotic here. Any ruler doesn't want to share power if he is not a pathetic weakling. His desire of not wanting to share a single coin is merely a metaphor so to say.
B. No plot armor. He was needed to get killed. I can't imagine a man who can aim with a universal god level precision and power to kill a dragon with a single shot either.
C. Smaug vs Balrog what? An empty line.
D. Like I said, the whole MM faction has units and spells which are used to steal and crush. An eco weakening ability better suits Angmar and I don't know what to repeat, I say this ability is a BS. I do not have to offer something in exchange but I still offered a glimpse of an idea. Rememeber, he does not care about some weapons or garbage so to say. He cares about tons of gold, something extremely precious. Only in this sense he can be greedy.

Offline AulëTheSmith

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #23 am: 15. Okt 2017, 14:44 »
Well, what can I say... I LOVE this concept. It even has the names of the abilities being Smaug quotes, which is something I wanted so much!

Count me in favour of this suggestion, Aulë! You truly are a masterful craftsman, as your Valar namesake :)

Thank you very much for you support Julio  :). I count you as in favour. Regarding the quotes: to complete the concept, a proper sound set for Smaug would be the top, such that for example he says "I'm fire, I'm death" just before spitting fire  :)

TheDarkOne: I don't get why you deem the ability non-usable in flight as controversial.
Furthermore, I don't think this ability alone depicts him as a psychopath or mad, it is a bit exaggerated as a definition. If you want you can see the debuff of your eco-system as follow, because maybe the word "steal" I used is not so adequate: Smaug cannot serve you for nothing, such that when you make use of him as defense he will always want something in return. At the same time, when you attack your enemy, he will claim part of the spoils you get.
As for goblin's tunnels: I see them as a chest of treasure and spoils they get, rather that production centers. It not so out of place that they offer a great part of this fortunes to Smaug ;). As a difference with other Eco debuffing in game, this ability would influence only structures near Smaug, to underline that he keep resources for himself, otherwise if it was a general debuffing it would be similar to a tax or something like that, which of course it is not fitting at all.
 I agree with you that is far the most sharp and smart among the creatures of MM (except the word "wise" doesn't sound well for him, I would rather say crafty ), but this doesn't mean he cannot have weak point. his greedy it is probably the only, but also the most relevant of his edges/weaknesses.

 I know that maybe my ability is not perfect, but for now I deem it reasonable and worth to be part of the project. feel absolutely free to propose an alternative/adjustments to "Dragon Sickness"  :). Or, if someone want to craft something starting to your idea is absolutely free to share his/her project.

Again: I'm always glad to discuss and discussions make a concept better :)
As a final note: I would not go too much deeply into details of the plot choices made during the filming of the hobbit,such as how Smaug die in the movie, the shoot precision of Bard, etc etc. , otherwise it could be an endless discussion. Let us concentrate only on the main aspects of the character, eventually comparing the book and the movies on these matters.
« Letzte Änderung: 16. Okt 2017, 12:26 von AulëTheSmith »

Offline TheDarkOne

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #24 am: 15. Okt 2017, 15:00 »
Alright, let it be. Better to be cautious but let's see all of this in action first.

Offline dkbluewizard

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #25 am: 15. Okt 2017, 15:27 »
To TheDarkOne, since Aule has already seemed to convince you, I guess I don't need to comment further. I think Aule is right about Smaug being crafty more than wise, but his pride is a factor and is not part of "plot armor" it is part of Smaug's nature you can read that in his abilities "my wings are hurricanes."

Aule, I would like ask you something, you are probably one the best if not the best person to come up with canonical abilities for characters. You bring lore, canon, and gameplay into one cohesive function that everybody can love and enjoy. So could I ask you for some other concept ideas since you and I worked on the Durin VII concept together.

Would you be willing to do the same thing for Alatar (Morinehtar), Pallando (Romestamo), or the Balrog just for fun? If you feel you only have time for one, I would like to see Morinehtar's concept more than any including what would happen if he would get the One Ring.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Offline AulëTheSmith

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #26 am: 15. Okt 2017, 17:45 »
Aule, I would like ask you something, you are probably one the best if not the best person to come up with canonical abilities for characters. You bring lore, canon, and gameplay into one cohesive function that everybody can love and enjoy. So could I ask you for some other concept ideas since you and I worked on the Durin VII concept together.

Would you be willing to do the same thing for Alatar (Morinehtar), Pallando (Romestamo), or the Balrog just for fun? If you feel you only have time for one, I would like to see Morinehtar's concept more than any including what would happen if he would get the One Ring.

Thank you, dkblue. I don't consider myself the best I assure you I've still a lot to learn. What is true is that when I craft a concept I try to put in it all the passion and pledge I have.
Regarding the Blue wizards, as I said to you in the past, I have some vague ideas. Maybe in the future I will try to finalize these ideas.
For now I wish to complete this concept and open a thread devoted to Durin VII/dwarves ring system :)

Offline Gandalf7000

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #27 am: 15. Okt 2017, 18:12 »
I really like this suggestion. I hope this gets it's way into the mod.

Offline dkbluewizard

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #28 am: 15. Okt 2017, 18:42 »

Thank you, dkblue. I don't consider myself the best I assure you I've still a lot to learn. What is true is that when I craft a concept I try to put in it all the passion and pledge I have.
Regarding the Blue wizards, as I said to you in the past, I have some vague ideas. Maybe in the future I will try to finalize these ideas.
For now I wish to complete this concept and open a thread devoted to Durin VII/dwarves ring system :)
[/quote]

That sounds good, I'll be there. Speaking of concepts would you mind checking this one out for me and tell me what you think: https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,34967.0.html
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Offline AulëTheSmith

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #29 am: 16. Okt 2017, 00:04 »
I really like this suggestion. I hope this gets it's way into the mod.

Thank you for your support, white wizard, I'll put your name in the green list  :) :)