Smaug, the Chiefest and Greatest of Calamities

[AulëTheSmith]

Well just read my above list of heroes that should or shouldn't be affected. I say we have a discussion here. If you feel someone on my list (as shown above) should/shouldn't be affected, state why and the source.

Aule, one of the things I am thankful for is your devotion and skill to this craft--my nit pickiness is just that and nothing more. It is tied to the lore, so if I seem like a broken record...it is because I am and I have no soul 

JK, but joking aside, I do support this ability full heartily I have said that numerous times. I think the list I presented is a perfect place to resource on who Smaug could affect with his gaze.

Apart the ring heroes (bug, gameplay and in some cases also lore reasons) and Sauron's servants which are like a part of Sauron himself and depends by him ( beside lore reasons it could be a source of bug as you rightly said) i see no reasons to totally exclude the others from the effects. I found more reasonable and game play interesting to introduce a resistance against the magic of Smaug. Such that for example Aragorn should be very very difficult to subjugate.

Speaking about the mere power of the spell, I don't think the Smaug gaze is as powerful as the Glaurung that transfixed Turin the dragon slayer by definition. But in the same way I would say the heroes of first-second  age are not comparable with the majority of the hero in game. They are on a superior level. So in conclusion my lore opinion is that Smaug'eyes can affect almost every hero, but with minor effect on the more powerful one, like as you said Thranduil. But as I said, there's no only lore to consider. Also balance,gameplay,bugs . And these last three are the main reasons why we excluded ring heroes and Nazguls, beside Tolkien's universe tradition reasons.

I just recently found that in the Hero submod the author introduced the gaze in game, probably inspired by the old article of MM . Maybe, despite the old dear 3.8.1 was less balanced, some hero submod player could inform us about how much this spell can affect the balance of the game. As I understand, the version of the submod does not allow the conversion of ring heroes only

[dkbluewizard]

3.81 excluded ALL ring heroes, so i don't think Smaug's gaze would work on some, and as listed earlier, I gave the reasons why his gaze would affect boromir and thorin. But whatever you guys want to do, i'll say no more but I think Edain shares my insights, as I don't feel they they feel Smaug's gaze should affect Sauron, his nazgul, and many other heroes.

[Garlodur]

Aulë, it's great to see someone working so closely on a concept that's at the heart of many Edain fans.

Let me tell you that you've made a great start but I have my doubts about gameplay, some of which indicated before.

There are many points I'd like to address, so here we go:

Firstly, to respond to the issue of the Hypnotic Gaze, there seems to be a deadlock about the first of its three effects. I don't like any of the mind-controlling aspects, because they are not properly founded on lore. Therefore I suggest to leave out any temporary take-over of enemy heroes. The other effects seem reasonably unique, although it is hard to maneuver between the skills of Saruman, Wormtongue amd Sauron. Perhaps some hard thinking could lead you to differentiate between them three (who use their voice and wit) and a mighty dragon (using spells through his eyes). Then again the ability might turn too weak, but you should let your creativity roam freely. I tell you it works wonders

Secondly, I want to mention the double abilities Smaug in flight has in Mighty Roar and Hurricane Wings. Both have the effect of scaring or blowing enemies away such that they cannot attack Smaug. Without added effects one fills up a valuable place in Smaug's arsenal. Perhaps the Roar could reduce enemy attributes temporarily, or the Hurricane Wings disable buildings. Again, free your mind of constrictions of lore, representation and Edain design philosophy, before coming round full circle.

Thirdly, a very fair point was made in comparing Smaug's greediness to that of the regular Goblins. I don't think the Dragon Sickness (perhaps Spoil is better than Sickness) ability goes far enough in distinguishing his greed and pride over the minor Goblins who reuse materials rather than sitting and sleeping on top of them. Even more, a faction with so much scavenging could become lackluster, even if it is its central theme. There should be variations in the gameplay, different options players can pursue depending on situations besides spamming units.

Fourthly, I might see a double ability with Smaug in flight, in level 1 and 10. The way they are they deal area-of-effect in a wide area, one against standard units only, and the other against everything together. Not up to high unique design standards. Perhaps another added effect could distinguish them, but I recommend you implement a single target attack at range such as the Fireball or dragon-shaped fire. It could deal high damage against heroes or buildings, perhaps with napalm or spread effect.

Fifthly, I like the basic idea of the Tribute System as I deem ot valuable for Smaug to be only recruitable by limitations in early and mid-game. Nonetheless, I don't like the certain pay-to-win feature as Smaug will likely end up to be in a faction based off scavenging. Could you limit it to one kind of tribute for a reasonable cost, gaining him one level per summon, with only a short summoning 60-90 seconds, and a few minutes cooldown, so he stays a really temporary threat. You will also have to paint the picture of how this Dragon Lair as an outpost works, because your assumptions are not clarified. Some outposts are expensive and give many options to start with; perhaps the Dragon Lair is already defended by Drakes, does not need to level up, or provides strong leadership by default.

Sixthly, concerning the Ring; the idea doesn't look very interesting to be honest. It highlights greed, which is already omnipresent in this faction. Why not give this particular the fancy of a ruler, as if he were more than a mirror of the Eagles of the Valar, perhaps deeming himself a Maiar himself. I know of no writings relating the effect of Elven Magic (Rings of Power) on dragons, so here it's required to work your imagination!

I think that's it for now. I hope to not have discouraged you with my outcries for uniqueness. I would help more constructively, but my mind is occupied by another Edain proposal of mine.

Best of luck, Garlodur

[dkbluewizard]

Nah, I think Aule's concepts are perfect. And as far as "lore constriction." Pg. 35 line 16 pretty much shows that we as a community have already disregarded the lore when it pertains to Smaug as a hero for MM (even says a "Brass Ring" of it). So I think Aule's concept is the best and closest we get on all accounts. Look Smaug isn't the end all and be all of Middle Earth, Sauron is.

[AulëTheSmith]

Hi Garlodur 
 first of all, thank you for you feedback and sorry for the late answer.
I would try to clarify better my choices:

Firstly, to respond to the issue of the Hypnotic Gaze, there seems to be a deadlock about the first of its three effects. I don't like any of the mind-controlling aspects, because they are not properly founded on lore. Therefore I suggest to leave out any temporary take-over of enemy heroes. The other effects seem reasonably unique, although it is hard to maneuver between the skills of Saruman, Wormtongue amd Sauron. Perhaps some hard thinking could lead you to differentiate between them three (who use their voice and wit) and a mighty dragon (using spells through his eyes). Then again the ability might turn too weak, but you should let your creativity roam freely. I tell you it works wonders

Secondly, I want to mention the double abilities Smaug in flight has in Mighty Roar and Hurricane Wings. Both have the effect of scaring or blowing enemies away such that they cannot attack Smaug. Without added effects one fills up a valuable place in Smaug's arsenal. Perhaps the Roar could reduce enemy attributes temporarily, or the Hurricane Wings disable buildings. Again, free your mind of constrictions of lore, representation and Edain design philosophy, before coming round full circle.

Thirdly, a very fair point was made in comparing Smaug's greediness to that of the regular Goblins. I don't think the Dragon Sickness (perhaps Spoil is better than Sickness) ability goes far enough in distinguishing his greed and pride over the minor Goblins who reuse materials rather than sitting and sleeping on top of them. Even more, a faction with so much scavenging could become lackluster, even if it is its central theme. There should be variations in the gameplay, different options players can pursue depending on situations besides spamming units.

Fourthly, I might see a double ability with Smaug in flight, in level 1 and 10. The way they are they deal area-of-effect in a wide area, one against standard units only, and the other against everything together. Not up to high unique design standards. Perhaps another added effect could distinguish them, but I recommend you implement a single target attack at range such as the Fireball or dragon-shaped fire. It could deal high damage against heroes or buildings, perhaps with napalm or spread effect.

Fifthly, I like the basic idea of the Tribute System as I deem ot valuable for Smaug to be only recruitable by limitations in early and mid-game. Nonetheless, I don't like the certain pay-to-win feature as Smaug will likely end up to be in a faction based off scavenging. Could you limit it to one kind of tribute for a reasonable cost, gaining him one level per summon, with only a short summoning 60-90 seconds, and a few minutes cooldown, so he stays a really temporary threat. You will also have to paint the picture of how this Dragon Lair as an outpost works, because your assumptions are not clarified. Some outposts are expensive and give many options to start with; perhaps the Dragon Lair is already defended by Drakes, does not need to level up, or provides strong leadership by default.

Sixthly, concerning the Ring; the idea doesn't look very interesting to be honest. It highlights greed, which is already omnipresent in this faction. Why not give this particular the fancy of a ruler, as if he were more than a mirror of the Eagles of the Valar, perhaps deeming himself a Maiar himself. I know of no writings relating the effect of Elven Magic (Rings of Power) on dragons, so here it's required to work your imagination!

1st point : at least for me, as long as we excluded the ring heroes, there's no deadlock in the development of the idea. In this case,it is not directly a controlling of mind, but rather an indirect manipulation of the victim which is stunned and confused by the spell (the time need to be balance properly of course). It is a delicious reference to the power of the father of all fire-worms, so i deem it lore-friendly 

2nd-4th point : concerning level 1 and 10 abilities, i think they fit perfectly with the mass-slayer characterization of Smaug. As i wrote, i don't like fire ball and even less the fire-shaped dragon attack. They rightly belong to wizards. Furthermore, i don't think single target attack fit at all for Smaug. I used exactly the logic of the level 1-10 abilities of  Gandalf as an example of mass slayer: both wizards blast and word of power damages the enemy units and knock them back, but with a different scale of power of course (also in the ring form the bright word of power has effect on armor, which distinguish it more inuniqueness). In the same way incinerate and i'm fire,i'm death should have the same firespreading effect on a certain area (that's something that fits far better for a big dragon like him imo!!), but with a different area and animation (one in movement, the other when standstill in flight), and also with slightly different effect to give them more purposes!!
Concerning roar of the beast and wing hurricane, one make the units flee, the other knock back and damaged them ( but smaug is standstill so is not so protected!), given  the player the possibility to finish the damaged target with raged weapon or melee troops! At least even if i know i didn't add anything apart from original/classical/vanilla effects ( and you may say me that ideas seem "flat"  ), i can see there are some differences between the two

3rd point : it seems about dragon sickness (yeah maybe the name fits better for Thorin II, i could change it in "dragon greedyness" or something like that) the forum is quite divided . I cannot say anything more than what i say to TheDarkOne: it seems balanced and rapresent well the character in my opinion. In particular the double-cut effect (both against you or the enemy) underlines the fact that Smaug doesn't care about alliances especially about treasures. He instead pretend a tribute even when permanently in game  That's my view but i could be wrong of course. it could be not funny in game or not balanced. This i cannot know because it requires testing

5th-6th point : about the ring you are right, still it's work in progress. I would still work on greedyness and brutal power anyway. Because i think smaug doesn't want to resamble maia or similar creatures. He deems himself just perfect, and even more he will feel invicible under the influence of the ring i believe 
I will clarify better the role of the dragon lair later on if it is not clear, i promise

Anyway, the FOR-AGAINST list are founded on agree-disagree on the general ideas (small details and some effects can change). I'm still quite new here (more or less 8 months),  so i have not so much experience in "management" of concept-related threads  . But, a thing i'm learning is that we cannot agree or disagree on single details otherwise we start an eternal loop  . So, about the general concept you agree or disagree? or i have to take you as "in-maybe" phase for now? . Feel yourself free to judge.
Of course i will take into account all the ideas and modify some details and/or effect, this i can do for sure  . What i cannot do is twist totally the ideas, both because i quite like them as they are (otherwise i would had not proposed them  ) and last but not least because just some people agreed with them 

[Walküre]

Theoretically, there is no boundary or some sort of limit that might constrain people during the debating of a concept, provided that all belongs to the topic which is being discussed. Said that, I second the Smith's words: focusing on details is always fine, but it wouldn't be wise and constructive for our scope, if we were to twist and change the foundations of the concept radically, lest we start a chain of infinite debates and lengthy as well, without this thread benefiting from any of that. The very purpose of this topic was the showcasing of a quite established suggestion, comprised of all the needed indications. It follows that, if there is someone who agrees with the kernel of the proposal, albeit being wary of a couple of details, I wholeheartedly suggest them express themselves in plain terms first, and then we could delve deeply into the minor sides of the conceptual construction. The utmost objective of ours is the gathering of all support possible in the forum, if people share favourable opinions in regards of the founding premises of this concept.

Coming quite late to the examining of the issue, I think that leaving just Ring-heroes aside, speaking about the hypnotic gaze, is at the end of the day the best solution. Making use of the sheer lore doesn't really help here, since we're still within an in-game scenario; above all, there is a simple yet prime reason for the original choice of writing the sole Ring-heroes off the list and it's very practical: all descriptions in the game should be the most concise possible, for the sake of the players and of the very character, as having endless essays about the effects of a feature (indicating which heroes may be affected and which may not) would likely result in an awful outcome.

[AulëTheSmith]

Theoretically, there is no boundary or some sort of limit that might constrain people during the debating of a concept, provided that all belongs to the topic which is being discussed. Said that, I second the Smith's words: focusing on details is always fine, but it wouldn't be wise and constructive for our scope, if we were to twist and change the foundations of the concept radically, lest we start a chain of infinite debates and lengthy as well, without this thread benefiting from any of that. The very purpose of this topic was the showcasing of a quite established suggestion, comprised of all the needed indications. It follows that, if there is someone who agrees with the kernel of the proposal, albeit being wary of a couple of details, I wholeheartedly suggest them express themselves in plain terms first, and then we could delve deeply into the minor sides of the conceptual construction. The utmost objective of ours is the gathering of all support possible in the forum, if people share favourable opinions in regards of the founding premises of this concept.

This is exactly what I meant, thank you Walküre the smart  . I mean I don't want to discourage people at all, every suggestion Is warmly welcome, but at the same time if we restar again in discussing the very bases/pillars of the concept than I'm afraid we fall in an eternal loop ("Dormammu I've come to bargain", if you got the reference   :D ).

Cool now I can hypnotize Bard and don't have to worry about that black arrow. Thank you.

By using your own logic, Galadriel should basically be immune to pretty much all heroes, the Witch-king could only be slain by female characters or creatures, the Dark Lord would literally be invincible, the Ring-wraiths could not be killed by standard units and the list goes on and on. The game would therefore be rendered a living hell and nightmare.

The lore serves the noblest of the purposes, when it gives rationality and substance to a given concept, finding that proper coherence that permits a feature to fare well in a real-time strategy game; not when it's used to force itself into the game in such a disruptive manner or to back ridiculous arguments.

Thank you again. I just wrote that lore is not the only thing (I used the word variable to be precise), just because the reasons you say. Also Smaug should be invulnerable to any normal arrow in game, and he should be very big, like an entire Edain castle  . By this example you can clearly see, dkblue, that you cannot be so much attached to the lore because still is a game. We Must find the right trade off between gameplay and lore. The right equilibrium between the two is the only way. Walküre raised optimal point in this sense, and clear examples.

[AulëTheSmith]

If I was so attached to the lore, I would still be complaining about Smaug being a ring hero when in the books it says that he can't use any of his treasure (a brass ring of it). States that in the Hobbit.

So I don't think I am stuck on the lore. I am stuck on balance though, and that is why I said what I said.

Balance is important too. But, I think taking into account the power of the heroes and setting a proper duration time of the hypnotic state we can reach a good equilibrium, together with a fun to play ability 

[Spacetyrant93]

Hello people, I come really late to this thread (and back to this forum in general actually), and I would like to give my two cents on this topin, which I admit I love.

First of all, my most honest congratulations and thanks to Aule, whom gave us such an in-depth, extremely reasoned concept about Smaug, about whom I agree on nearly everything, images included! XD

There would be a few things I would adress though. I apologise if some things have already been pointed out or suggestions already made, I am terrible at remembering, so please know that I mean no offense whatsoever.

I agree with others that Smaug should be important to the faction, but the central thing would be the Orcs, and Bolg getting this messy load of monsters under firm control, so I would not have Smaug as a central spell.

Another thing would be that, while it would be awesome to have Smaug in game as soon as possible, maybe it would be overkill. Here is what I would say:

Have a building called 'Tresure Chamber', not really related to Dragons, that just accumulates the loot MM make with all their various ways. In this case, Smaug would be the 10-tier power next to the Balrog, in the sense that you activate his recruitment from a Tresure Chamber. Given the Team's intent to have a power more on the offensive and another on the defensive side, I would say the Balrog is the obvious offense, being that you summon a very edgy and fiery-tempered Demon right under the enemy's nose, a bit like Gondor's Army of the Dead. Still referring to Gondor's spellbook, and basing on the Rohirrim spell, I would say that Smaug would cost quite a number of resources (not the 10.000 of vanilla ring heroes of course) and come with a short delay, given he has to fly to a set location, while the Balrog directly emerges from the depths.

This is merely a concept of how to recruit Smaug, whom some have said to be too powerful of a beast to be recruitable as normal heroes. Otherwise the concept given by Aule is, to me, absolutely perfect.

About the Ring part for Smaug, I agree the Ring makes more sense into the treasure chamber rather than on the Dragon himself (which is honestly kinda fun to think about), but as to its possible effects, I'm not sure. Given that Smaug is considered a 'defensive' spell in the concept I'm proposing here, I would say he gains increased armor while close to allied structures and a power boost, and perhaps a fiery aura about him that gives passive burn damage. Just throwing out ideas here.

Thanks again for the awesome concept Aule

[AulëTheSmith]

Hello people, I come really late to this thread (and back to this forum in general actually), and I would like to give my two cents on this topin, which I admit I love.

First of all, my most honest congratulations and thanks to Aule, whom gave us such an in-depth, extremely reasoned concept about Smaug, about whom I agree on nearly everything, images included! XD

There would be a few things I would adress though. I apologise if some things have already been pointed out or suggestions already made, I am terrible at remembering, so please know that I mean no offense whatsoever.

I agree with others that Smaug should be important to the faction, but the central thing would be the Orcs, and Bolg getting this messy load of monsters under firm control, so I would not have Smaug as a central spell.

Another thing would be that, while it would be awesome to have Smaug in game as soon as possible, maybe it would be overkill. Here is what I would say:

Have a building called 'Tresure Chamber', not really related to Dragons, that just accumulates the loot MM make with all their various ways. In this case, Smaug would be the 10-tier power next to the Balrog, in the sense that you activate his recruitment from a Tresure Chamber. Given the Team's intent to have a power more on the offensive and another on the defensive side, I would say the Balrog is the obvious offense, being that you summon a very edgy and fiery-tempered Demon right under the enemy's nose, a bit like Gondor's Army of the Dead. Still referring to Gondor's spellbook, and basing on the Rohirrim spell, I would say that Smaug would cost quite a number of resources (not the 10.000 of vanilla ring heroes of course) and come with a short delay, given he has to fly to a set location, while the Balrog directly emerges from the depths.

This is merely a concept of how to recruit Smaug, whom some have said to be too powerful of a beast to be recruitable as normal heroes. Otherwise the concept given by Aule is, to me, absolutely perfect.

About the Ring part for Smaug, I agree the Ring makes more sense into the treasure chamber rather than on the Dragon himself (which is honestly kinda fun to think about), but as to its possible effects, I'm not sure. Given that Smaug is considered a 'defensive' spell in the concept I'm proposing here, I would say he gains increased armor while close to allied structures and a power boost, and perhaps a fiery aura about him that gives passive burn damage. Just throwing out ideas here.

Thanks again for the awesome concept Aule

Hi spacetyrant and welcome to the discussion (and welcome back to the forum)
You don't have to apologize everyone here have the right to point out or state an opinion
First of all, I would prefer to address the central spell on monsters given that MM will be the monsters faction by definition. Don't know why, but rather anyone focused his attention on the total description of the spell: it will provide upgrades for different monsters, besides unlocking Smaug ( he's the central image because is the most famous and important among the terrible creatures ). I'm sorry if for now the part regarding the other monsters is incomplete, I think we will have more time to discuss deeply this matter in the future, when the faction will be near
Furthermore, I think basic Goblin units will be very well supported by Bolg himself, which will provide them discipline and leadership. The chieftain of the goblin army will be central and the only one without a title-like name (unlike the others: The Deflier, The Goblin King, The Chieftan of Moria)  (at least you can extrapolate that looking at the old news about mm given by the team years ago). There's no need to center the spell on basic units in my opinion. The very faction which is more uniquely centered on Orc is Mordor . Lastly, as I know there is a good idea about the permanent/left side 10pp spell, which is the Azog's command banner we have seen in BOTFA.
About the cost of Smaug himself, the forum members stopped me about making him cost more than 3000 resources, because in that way wouldn't be possible for the AI to recruit him (it is a technical, reason).
Considering all, in my opinion there are sufficient constraints to justify an over the average mass slayer like the dragon should be

ITA: Comunque se non ho visto male sei italiano, mi sorprende e mi fa sempre piacere trovarne in questo forum

This is for all of you guys.
I hope no one misunderstood my words when i answered to Garlodur. Remember that every thoughts of you make me reflect. In fact I'm continuously thinking about changes in the concept, especially about the three most debated things which are dragon sickness, hypnotic gaze and the ring form (which I remember you have good bases, but it is the most uncompleted in terms of details). So leaving aside big changes/twists , which I just explained very well why I cannot do, if you agree/disagree on the pillars of the concept I warmly invite you to state your in favour - against vote

[FilipGeorg95]

I am in for the whole idea and concept about Smaug. Consider me with this reply as +1 for it.

[AulëTheSmith]

I am in for the whole idea and concept about Smaug. Consider me with this reply as +1 for it.

Thank you very much Filip  then you are on board 

[FilipGeorg95]

The pleasure is mine Aule

[Spacetyrant93]

Hello again and thanks for your words Aule

Hmmm I see, may have missed the part where the central spell was all about the monsters (which btw I agree MM is all about)

Now the banner from BOTFA was...unexpected from my side, but totally welcome a concept!

Ah, I see. Well, 3000 is fine, I'd say.

ITA: Sissignore ci ha visto alla grande! Piacere mio capo

Btw, count me in with a +1!

[AulëTheSmith]

Hello again and thanks for your words Aule

Hmmm I see, may have missed the part where the central spell was all about the monsters (which btw I agree MM is all about)

Now the banner from BOTFA was...unexpected from my side, but totally welcome a concept!

Ah, I see. Well, 3000 is fine, I'd say.

ITA: Sissignore ci ha visto alla grande! Piacere mio capo

Btw, count me in with a +1!

 I think you can find the proposal somewhere in the discussion and feedback session but I'm not sure. Anyhow, we will have time to discuss In very details the spellbook of mm later on  for sure the banner could offer very interesting whole-map leadership orders. We may see it as the antithesis of the dwarves fortress, being the dwarves the arch enemy of mm by definition. Both long term structures but one more defensive the other one aggressive 

ITA: grazie ancora e benvenuto a bordo