[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] General Suggestions
Smaug, the Chiefest and Greatest of Calamities
Walküre:
Theoretically, there is no boundary or some sort of limit that might constrain people during the debating of a concept, provided that all belongs to the topic which is being discussed. Said that, I second the Smith's words: focusing on details is always fine, but it wouldn't be wise and constructive for our scope, if we were to twist and change the foundations of the concept radically, lest we start a chain of infinite debates and lengthy as well, without this thread benefiting from any of that. The very purpose of this topic was the showcasing of a quite established suggestion, comprised of all the needed indications. It follows that, if there is someone who agrees with the kernel of the proposal, albeit being wary of a couple of details, I wholeheartedly suggest them express themselves in plain terms first, and then we could delve deeply into the minor sides of the conceptual construction. The utmost objective of ours is the gathering of all support possible in the forum, if people share favourable opinions in regards of the founding premises of this concept.
Coming quite late to the examining of the issue, I think that leaving just Ring-heroes aside, speaking about the hypnotic gaze, is at the end of the day the best solution. Making use of the sheer lore doesn't really help here, since we're still within an in-game scenario; above all, there is a simple yet prime reason for the original choice of writing the sole Ring-heroes off the list and it's very practical: all descriptions in the game should be the most concise possible, for the sake of the players and of the very character, as having endless essays about the effects of a feature (indicating which heroes may be affected and which may not) would likely result in an awful outcome.
AulëTheSmith:
--- Zitat von: Walküre am 13. Dez 2017, 15:40 ---Theoretically, there is no boundary or some sort of limit that might constrain people during the debating of a concept, provided that all belongs to the topic which is being discussed. Said that, I second the Smith's words: focusing on details is always fine, but it wouldn't be wise and constructive for our scope, if we were to twist and change the foundations of the concept radically, lest we start a chain of infinite debates and lengthy as well, without this thread benefiting from any of that. The very purpose of this topic was the showcasing of a quite established suggestion, comprised of all the needed indications. It follows that, if there is someone who agrees with the kernel of the proposal, albeit being wary of a couple of details, I wholeheartedly suggest them express themselves in plain terms first, and then we could delve deeply into the minor sides of the conceptual construction. The utmost objective of ours is the gathering of all support possible in the forum, if people share favourable opinions in regards of the founding premises of this concept.
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This is exactly what I meant, thank you Walküre the smart ;). I mean I don't want to discourage people at all, every suggestion Is warmly welcome, but at the same time if we restar again in discussing the very bases/pillars of the concept than I'm afraid we fall in an eternal loop ("Dormammu I've come to bargain", if you got the reference :D:D ).
--- Zitat von: Walküre am 13. Dez 2017, 16:14 ---
--- Zitat von: dkbluewizard am 13. Dez 2017, 15:44 ---Cool now I can hypnotize Bard and don't have to worry about that black arrow. Thank you.
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By using your own logic, Galadriel should basically be immune to pretty much all heroes, the Witch-king could only be slain by female characters or creatures, the Dark Lord would literally be invincible, the Ring-wraiths could not be killed by standard units and the list goes on and on. The game would therefore be rendered a living hell and nightmare.
The lore serves the noblest of the purposes, when it gives rationality and substance to a given concept, finding that proper coherence that permits a feature to fare well in a real-time strategy game; not when it's used to force itself into the game in such a disruptive manner or to back ridiculous arguments.
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Thank you again. I just wrote that lore is not the only thing (I used the word variable to be precise), just because the reasons you say. Also Smaug should be invulnerable to any normal arrow in game, and he should be very big, like an entire Edain castle [ugly]. By this example you can clearly see, dkblue, that you cannot be so much attached to the lore because still is a game. We Must find the right trade off between gameplay and lore. The right equilibrium between the two is the only way. Walküre raised optimal point in this sense, and clear examples.
AulëTheSmith:
--- Zitat von: dkbluewizard am 13. Dez 2017, 19:26 ---If I was so attached to the lore, I would still be complaining about Smaug being a ring hero when in the books it says that he can't use any of his treasure (a brass ring of it). States that in the Hobbit.
So I don't think I am stuck on the lore. I am stuck on balance though, and that is why I said what I said.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Balance is important too. But, I think taking into account the power of the heroes and setting a proper duration time of the hypnotic state we can reach a good equilibrium, together with a fun to play ability ;)
Spacetyrant93:
Hello people, I come really late to this thread (and back to this forum in general actually), and I would like to give my two cents on this topin, which I admit I love.
First of all, my most honest congratulations and thanks to Aule, whom gave us such an in-depth, extremely reasoned concept about Smaug, about whom I agree on nearly everything, images included! XD
There would be a few things I would adress though. I apologise if some things have already been pointed out or suggestions already made, I am terrible at remembering, so please know that I mean no offense whatsoever.
I agree with others that Smaug should be important to the faction, but the central thing would be the Orcs, and Bolg getting this messy load of monsters under firm control, so I would not have Smaug as a central spell.
Another thing would be that, while it would be awesome to have Smaug in game as soon as possible, maybe it would be overkill. Here is what I would say:
Have a building called 'Tresure Chamber', not really related to Dragons, that just accumulates the loot MM make with all their various ways. In this case, Smaug would be the 10-tier power next to the Balrog, in the sense that you activate his recruitment from a Tresure Chamber. Given the Team's intent to have a power more on the offensive and another on the defensive side, I would say the Balrog is the obvious offense, being that you summon a very edgy and fiery-tempered Demon right under the enemy's nose, a bit like Gondor's Army of the Dead. Still referring to Gondor's spellbook, and basing on the Rohirrim spell, I would say that Smaug would cost quite a number of resources (not the 10.000 of vanilla ring heroes of course) and come with a short delay, given he has to fly to a set location, while the Balrog directly emerges from the depths.
This is merely a concept of how to recruit Smaug, whom some have said to be too powerful of a beast to be recruitable as normal heroes. Otherwise the concept given by Aule is, to me, absolutely perfect.
About the Ring part for Smaug, I agree the Ring makes more sense into the treasure chamber rather than on the Dragon himself (which is honestly kinda fun to think about), but as to its possible effects, I'm not sure. Given that Smaug is considered a 'defensive' spell in the concept I'm proposing here, I would say he gains increased armor while close to allied structures and a power boost, and perhaps a fiery aura about him that gives passive burn damage. Just throwing out ideas here.
Thanks again for the awesome concept Aule :)
AulëTheSmith:
--- Zitat von: Spacetyrant93 am 15. Dez 2017, 14:08 ---Hello people, I come really late to this thread (and back to this forum in general actually), and I would like to give my two cents on this topin, which I admit I love.
First of all, my most honest congratulations and thanks to Aule, whom gave us such an in-depth, extremely reasoned concept about Smaug, about whom I agree on nearly everything, images included! XD
There would be a few things I would adress though. I apologise if some things have already been pointed out or suggestions already made, I am terrible at remembering, so please know that I mean no offense whatsoever.
I agree with others that Smaug should be important to the faction, but the central thing would be the Orcs, and Bolg getting this messy load of monsters under firm control, so I would not have Smaug as a central spell.
Another thing would be that, while it would be awesome to have Smaug in game as soon as possible, maybe it would be overkill. Here is what I would say:
Have a building called 'Tresure Chamber', not really related to Dragons, that just accumulates the loot MM make with all their various ways. In this case, Smaug would be the 10-tier power next to the Balrog, in the sense that you activate his recruitment from a Tresure Chamber. Given the Team's intent to have a power more on the offensive and another on the defensive side, I would say the Balrog is the obvious offense, being that you summon a very edgy and fiery-tempered Demon right under the enemy's nose, a bit like Gondor's Army of the Dead. Still referring to Gondor's spellbook, and basing on the Rohirrim spell, I would say that Smaug would cost quite a number of resources (not the 10.000 of vanilla ring heroes of course) and come with a short delay, given he has to fly to a set location, while the Balrog directly emerges from the depths.
This is merely a concept of how to recruit Smaug, whom some have said to be too powerful of a beast to be recruitable as normal heroes. Otherwise the concept given by Aule is, to me, absolutely perfect.
About the Ring part for Smaug, I agree the Ring makes more sense into the treasure chamber rather than on the Dragon himself (which is honestly kinda fun to think about), but as to its possible effects, I'm not sure. Given that Smaug is considered a 'defensive' spell in the concept I'm proposing here, I would say he gains increased armor while close to allied structures and a power boost, and perhaps a fiery aura about him that gives passive burn damage. Just throwing out ideas here.
Thanks again for the awesome concept Aule :)
--- Ende Zitat ---
Hi spacetyrant and welcome to the discussion (and welcome back to the forum) :)
You don't have to apologize everyone here have the right to point out or state an opinion :)
First of all, I would prefer to address the central spell on monsters given that MM will be the monsters faction by definition. Don't know why, but rather anyone focused his attention on the total description of the spell: it will provide upgrades for different monsters, besides unlocking Smaug ( he's the central image because is the most famous and important among the terrible creatures :) ). I'm sorry if for now the part regarding the other monsters is incomplete, I think we will have more time to discuss deeply this matter in the future, when the faction will be near :)
Furthermore, I think basic Goblin units will be very well supported by Bolg himself, which will provide them discipline and leadership. The chieftain of the goblin army will be central and the only one without a title-like name (unlike the others: The Deflier, The Goblin King, The Chieftan of Moria) (at least you can extrapolate that looking at the old news about mm given by the team years ago). There's no need to center the spell on basic units in my opinion. The very faction which is more uniquely centered on Orc is Mordor :). Lastly, as I know there is a good idea about the permanent/left side 10pp spell, which is the Azog's command banner we have seen in BOTFA.
About the cost of Smaug himself, the forum members stopped me about making him cost more than 3000 resources, because in that way wouldn't be possible for the AI to recruit him (it is a technical, reason).
Considering all, in my opinion there are sufficient constraints to justify an over the average mass slayer like the dragon should be :)
ITA: Comunque se non ho visto male sei italiano, mi sorprende e mi fa sempre piacere trovarne in questo forum :)
This is for all of you guys.
I hope no one misunderstood my words when i answered to Garlodur. Remember that every thoughts of you make me reflect. In fact I'm continuously thinking about changes in the concept, especially about the three most debated things which are dragon sickness, hypnotic gaze and the ring form (which I remember you have good bases, but it is the most uncompleted in terms of details). So leaving aside big changes/twists , which I just explained very well why I cannot do, if you agree/disagree on the pillars of the concept I warmly invite you to state your in favour - against vote ;)
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