Smaug, the Chiefest and Greatest of Calamities

[dkbluewizard]

Well let's just put a laser cannon on Smaug's back and have him shoot beams, that should be quite unique indeed...

The reason I brought up Theoden is because he was actually inhibited (books) or taken over (movie) by Saruman/Wormtongue. He is a ring hero so the ability that is proposed for Smaug would effect him if going by canon.

[AulëTheSmith]

Well let's just put a laser cannon on Smaug's back and have him shoot beams, that should be quite unique indeed...

The reason I brought up Theoden is because he was actually inhibited (books) or taken over (movie) by Saruman/Wormtongue. He is a ring hero so the ability that is proposed for Smaug would effect him if going by canon.

Quote from the book:

Bilbo was now beginning to feel really uncomfortable. Whenever Smaug's roving eye, seeking for him in the shadows, flashed across him, he trembled, and an unaccountable desire seized hold of him to rush out and reveal himself and tell all the truth to Smaug. In fact he was in grievous danger of coming under the dragon-spell. But plucking up courage he spoke again.

The dragon spell that Tolkien describe I think is our hypnotic gaze. Then my question is: if an enemy hero encounter the eyes of Smaug and he's hypnotized, then why Smaug shouldn't be able to force the target to do what he want or to say what he want to know?
I personally don't see this ability so dangerous as you fear dkblue. At least your joke about the laser beam is a bit exaggerated as a comparison. I don't think my proposal goes such so far from our purpose like a laser cannon proposal 
Obviously with some constrains and balance wise consideration. My old post of Sauron goes more in this direction I think 

[dkbluewizard]

I know this from the book very well Aule. Bilbo still didn't take the ring off which shows my point--heroes are not controlled, but inhibited. I'm sorry if you don't think me on board with this. Ask yourself this Aule and everyone else, do you really think Smaug could takeover the Witch King from Mordor? He is not a ring hero in Mordor, he is in Angmar, but not in Mordor. Or do you think he could do this to Glorfindel?

[NoldorSithLordsShipwright]

Read the text carefully. Bilbo, at worst, only had flashes of Smaug's gaze, thanks to invisibility (and the Ring was probably helping him resist since the Ring wants to go back to Sauron and not get stuck on a charred hobbit corpse/pile of ash in a dragon hoard).

In this concept, we can assume that target heroes will be getting Smaug's fully focused gaze and against the full might of Smaug's hypnosis.

[dkbluewizard]

The issue here is there is no resistance factor like in the books. If Smaug uses the ability, the hero is controlled. I just see that as too powerful, and as far as uniqueness goes. Wormtongue did it.

Edain Team initially had him just taking over average units. What is wrong with this? Why are we trying to make it against heroes?

I mean, if we are to do a black and white list of heroes that should or shouldn't be controlled, then I suggest we list out all the heroes and say which ones could be controlled and which ones shouldn't.

To be honest, I would be okay with Smaug hypnotizing heroes as you guys say if we actually had a list of all the heroes he could and couldn't take over. For instance, I do not believe he could hypnotize any of the Ring Heroes that we have with the exception of Thorin, Boromir, & Theoden:

This includes Elrond, Sauron, Gandalf, etc. But I also don't believe he should be able to hypnotize any of the nazgul (loyal to Sauron, had rings, and no eyes). The following are a list of heroes who I feel would have total resistance to Smaug's gaze.

Imladris: Glorfindel, Elladan/Elrohir (can't focus on both at same time), possibly Arwen if you are saying she has the Elessar, & Cirdan

Gondor: Aragorn & Faramir (if going by the movie he resisted the One Ring).

Lothlorien: Possibly Celeborn and Thranduil are the exceptions but I would let you guys decide that.

Rohan: Everyone is free game

Dwarfs: I would say everyone is free game save for maybe Lord/King Dain

Angmar: Everyone is free game, remember Ring heroes with the exception of Thorin, Theoden, and Boromir fall into this category so the Witch King is the only exception here. Oh and Karsh

Mordor: Mouth of Sauron (magical sight and like the Nazgul, don't feel Smaug could undo what Sauron has done) & All Nazgul.

Isengard: Outside of Saruman, everyone is free game.

Misty Mountains: William, Tom, and Bert for the same reasons as Elladan/Elrohir & Smaug, otherwise everyone else is free game.

Others: Any evil Men save probably the ring heroes would be affected. The Blue Wizards would not be affected, Tom Bombadil, Goldberry, Radagast, Durin's Bane, and  Erebor Gandalf would not be affected either.

If a list like this was implemented in the resistant factor, then I would be for the gaze of Smaug, you guys can debate whether you want the Hobbits affected or not, but Galadriel's light path would allow Frodo to have the ring so he would most likely not be affected.

[AulëTheSmith]

The issue here is there is no resistance factor like in the books. If Smaug uses the ability, the hero is controlled. I just see that as too powerful, and as far as uniqueness goes. Wormtongue did it.

That's why I want to adapt and reshape the Sauron's concept in favour to Smaug  In that concept you have three possible effect and they depend actually on the resistance of the characters. In fact want to change is the dependent variable: instead of the level, I would make the power of the hero the real variable that counts. Such that for 2500-3000 heroes like witch King, Gandalf, Saruman, etc it would be almost impossible to fall in the case one (total temporary conversion). For example it could be 10% of probability to fall in case one, 40% in case 2, 60% in case 3.
For scout heroes instead, the probability to be converted (fall in case one), would be very high, smething like 70%.
For middle cost heroes (1200 to 2000) same probability of 33,333% to fall in one of the three cases.
Ring heroes (while wearing the ring) are totally excluded from hypnotic gaze.

I get your point about ring wraiths and wraith in general. The fact is, if we are speaking about lore only, then Nazgul shouldn't take damage from common weapon, neither from arrow I think. Also power like the cripple effect of Lurtz should not have any effect on Nazgul. if we take into account lore only. The fact is, lore is only one of the important things we have to take into account, but also game play and technical feasibility. A good concept is the one that is a good trade off between these three components.
In conclusion of that, I would make them very resistant but not totally unaffected, for game play reason.

NoldorSithLordsShipwrigh t Can I count you as in favour?

[dkbluewizard]

Yes Aule, but then you are saying there is a 10% chance of taking over Saruman, Sauron, etc. which I don't think Smaug could do that, especially since the whole premise of Smaug fighting on the MM faction's side is that he is doing it for Sauron.

Well fire arrows, water, light, and elbereth all affected nazgul which is shown by the physicality of the computer game.

Case in point, Smaug's ability as it stands is too powerful, even with the 10% chance factor--there is no way Smaug would be able to take over heroes like Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel, WK, etc. not only is it not canonical, it makes him OP in a game sense.

[OakenShield224]

I'd just like to say how much I love this idea. You have my support AulëTheSmith.
In terms of the hero conversion ability, I agree that some heroes shouldn't be affected by the ability. I'd say all Ring Heroes aren't affected by the ability. For all other heroes, there is a 33% chance that they are converted. If they aren't converted, they are weakened for a small time (e.g. abilities recharge slower, slower attack speed, and reduced experience gain).

[AulëTheSmith]

I'd just like to say how much I love this idea. You have my support AulëTheSmith.
In terms of the hero conversion ability, I agree that some heroes shouldn't be affected by the ability. I'd say all Ring Heroes aren't affected by the ability. For all other heroes, there is a 33% chance that they are converted. If they aren't converted, they are weakened for a small time (e.g. abilities recharge slower, slower attack speed, and reduced experience gain).

I'll count on you as in favour 
I think at this point we all agree about excluding Ring bearers, so that point is quite consolidated.

About Sauron I could agree (I had not taken him in to account yet), dkblue, as an exceptional case. He's way powerful Maia in magical term, and also given his multiples shapes i cannot see him as a target of this ability. Sauron himself cuold manipulate Smaug, and not the contrary. (That is what would have probably happened if Smaug was still alive during war of the ring, It was the reason why Gandalf support the quest of erebor after all).
A part of him, the discussion is open and cannot be closed easily. Even for Saruman and Gandalf. Despite they still are superior creatures, being maiar, due to their human form they still have weaknesses. In particular I deem Saruman the most corruptible and controllable of the two. It's my opinion don't take it as personal
I'm glad to hear any opinion about the matter 

[dkbluewizard]

Aule you are as congenial as ever. But you said ring bearers, and Gandalf, Saruman, Galadriel, and Elrond all bear rings of power. I doubt anyone from the White Council would be affected.

Like I said before, I am in favor of this actually being a thing, but as discussed and as Oakenshield pointed out, there needs to be a list of heroes who wouldn't be affected. The ring heroes even without the One Ring in their possession, should not be affected (again Theoden, Thorin, and Boromir would be the exceptions).

So how about you make a list of the heroes that would and wouldn't be affected and we may all have something better to draw upon. If you are saying that just heroes who actually bear the One Ring, then the ability is too powerful--if you are just saying ring heroes...then okay I guess, but for reasons stated earlier I don't think Smaug could do that to some of the other heroes.

Let me know--I am actually IN FAVOR IF there are limitations placed on the ability.

[NoldorSithLordsShipwright]

Yes, you make count me as in favor.

[AulëTheSmith]

After reflecting more deeply, and taking into account all the variables, maybe it would be wise and balanced to remove the effect of conversion form all the ring heroes (both in normal and ring form), which usually are also the leaders of their respective factions.
Apart of lore reasons, which not in any case are easy to evaluate ( we can only make Theories of what could happen if various heroes cross Smaug's magic gaze), also from a gameplay perspective is better to make a general and balance consideration which is as much as possible equal for al the faction.
In conclusion, only the two other effect I listed for Sauron should affect the main leaders of the faction.
About Nazgul and these type of creatures I sincerely don't know what has to be done, from a lore and logic perspective I would exclude them, but in a gameplay perspective I would include them.
In general all the heroes will be affected by the effect 2-3 which will be about stunnig effect and sharing of the sight. I will craft the concept for Smaug later 

[dkbluewizard]

Aule, have you also considered what would happen if the Nazgul were taken over? I mean they draw power from Sauron, I mean their level is his level/rank. So if you convert them, would that be a coding issue? Could they even do anything? I don't personally know. That is why I think there should be a list of heroes who are affected and who aren't. That way like you said there is balance and the ability is still effective.

I mean, just because I can't control Sauron or Gandalf, doesn't mean the ability is useless, converting Mollock or Denethor can still be traumatic to the enemy. So as stated earlier, make a list of heroes who would be affected by Smaug's gaze so that we have something better to go on and implement.

[AulëTheSmith]

Aule, have you also considered what would happen if the Nazgul were taken over? I mean they draw power from Sauron, I mean their level is his level/rank. So if you convert them, would that be a coding issue? Could they even do anything? I don't personally know. That is why I think there should be a list of heroes who are affected and who aren't. That way like you said there is balance and the ability is still effective.

I mean, just because I can't control Sauron or Gandalf, doesn't mean the ability is useless, converting Mollock or Denethor can still be traumatic to the enemy. So as stated earlier, make a list of heroes who would be affected by Smaug's gaze so that we have something better to go on and implement.

Yes, bugs could be a problem too in that case, and for ring heroes in general. I crafted a first draft of the power it should be sufficiently balanced. It is visible in the main concept.
 If anyone more lore-master than me has something to suggest me then feel totally free to express yourself  . Especially about the Drak Lord and Ring wraith.

[dkbluewizard]

Well just read my above list of heroes that should or shouldn't be affected. I say we have a discussion here. If you feel someone on my list (as shown above) should/shouldn't be affected, state why and the source.

Aule, one of the things I am thankful for is your devotion and skill to this craft--my nit pickiness is just that and nothing more. It is tied to the lore, so if I seem like a broken record...it is because I am and I have no soul 

JK, but joking aside, I do support this ability full heartily I have said that numerous times. I think the list I presented is a perfect place to resource on who Smaug could affect with his gaze.