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Autor Thema: Smaug, the Chiefest and Greatest of Calamities  (Gelesen 5902 mal)

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #75 am: 25. Nov 2017, 12:54 »
Well just read my above list of heroes that should or shouldn't be affected. I say we have a discussion here. If you feel someone on my list (as shown above) should/shouldn't be affected, state why and the source.

Aule, one of the things I am thankful for is your devotion and skill to this craft--my nit pickiness is just that and nothing more. It is tied to the lore, so if I seem like a broken record...it is because I am and I have no soul  ;)

JK, but joking aside, I do support this ability full heartily I have said that numerous times. I think the list I presented is a perfect place to resource on who Smaug could affect with his gaze.

Apart the ring heroes (bug, gameplay and in some cases also lore reasons) and Sauron's servants which are like a part of Sauron himself and depends by him ( beside lore reasons it could be a source of bug as you rightly said) i see no reasons to totally exclude the others from the effects. I found more reasonable and game play interesting to introduce a resistance against the magic of Smaug. Such that for example Aragorn should be very very difficult to subjugate.

Speaking about the mere power of the spell, I don't think the Smaug gaze is as powerful as the Glaurung that transfixed Turin the dragon slayer by definition. But in the same way I would say the heroes of first-second  age are not comparable with the majority of the hero in game. They are on a superior level. So in conclusion my lore opinion is that Smaug'eyes can affect almost every hero, but with minor effect on the more powerful one, like as you said Thranduil. But as I said, there's no only lore to consider. Also balance,gameplay,bugs . And these last three are the main reasons why we excluded ring heroes and Nazguls, beside Tolkien's universe tradition reasons.

I just recently found that in the Hero submod the author introduced the gaze in game, probably inspired by the old article of MM . Maybe, despite the old dear 3.8.1 was less balanced, some hero submod player could inform us about how much this spell can affect the balance of the game. As I understand, the version of the submod does not allow the conversion of ring heroes only ;)

dkbluewizard

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #76 am: 25. Nov 2017, 17:14 »
3.81 excluded ALL ring heroes, so i don't think Smaug's gaze would work on some, and as listed earlier, I gave the reasons why his gaze would affect boromir and thorin. But whatever you guys want to do, i'll say no more but I think Edain shares my insights, as I don't feel they they feel Smaug's gaze should affect Sauron, his nazgul, and many other heroes.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Garlodur

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #77 am: 30. Nov 2017, 23:55 »
Aulë, it's great to see someone working so closely on a concept that's at the heart of many Edain fans.

Let me tell you that you've made a great start but I have my doubts about gameplay, some of which indicated before.

There are many points I'd like to address, so here we go:


I think that's it for now. I hope to not have discouraged you with my outcries for uniqueness. I would help more constructively, but my mind is occupied by another Edain proposal of mine.

Best of luck, Garlodur

dkbluewizard

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #78 am: 1. Dez 2017, 13:25 »
Nah, I think Aule's concepts are perfect. And as far as "lore constriction." Pg. 35 line 16 pretty much shows that we as a community have already disregarded the lore when it pertains to Smaug as a hero for MM (even says a "Brass Ring" of it). So I think Aule's concept is the best and closest we get on all accounts. Look Smaug isn't the end all and be all of Middle Earth, Sauron is.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #79 am: 12. Dez 2017, 15:24 »
Hi Garlodur  :)
 first of all, thank you for you feedback and sorry for the late answer.
I would try to clarify better my choices:


1st point : at least for me, as long as we excluded the ring heroes, there's no deadlock in the development of the idea. In this case,it is not directly a controlling of mind, but rather an indirect manipulation of the victim which is stunned and confused by the spell (the time need to be balance properly of course). It is a delicious reference to the power of the father of all fire-worms, so i deem it lore-friendly  :)

2nd-4th point : concerning level 1 and 10 abilities, i think they fit perfectly with the mass-slayer characterization of Smaug. As i wrote, i don't like fire ball and even less the fire-shaped dragon attack. They rightly belong to wizards. Furthermore, i don't think single target attack fit at all for Smaug. I used exactly the logic of the level 1-10 abilities of  Gandalf as an example of mass slayer: both wizards blast and word of power damages the enemy units and knock them back, but with a different scale of power of course (also in the ring form the bright word of power has effect on armor, which distinguish it more inuniqueness). In the same way incinerate and i'm fire,i'm death should have the same firespreading effect on a certain area (that's something that fits far better for a big dragon like him imo!!), but with a different area and animation (one in movement, the other when standstill in flight), and also with slightly different effect to give them more purposes!!
Concerning roar of the beast and wing hurricane, one make the units flee, the other knock back and damaged them ( but smaug is standstill so is not so protected!), given  the player the possibility to finish the damaged target with raged weapon or melee troops! At least even if i know i didn't add anything apart from original/classical/vanilla effects ( and you may say me that ideas seem "flat"  ;)), i can see there are some differences between the two :)

3rd point : it seems about dragon sickness (yeah maybe the name fits better for Thorin II, i could change it in "dragon greedyness" or something like that) the forum is quite divided [ugly]. I cannot say anything more than what i say to TheDarkOne: it seems balanced and rapresent well the character in my opinion. In particular the double-cut effect (both against you or the enemy) underlines the fact that Smaug doesn't care about alliances especially about treasures. He instead pretend a tribute even when permanently in game  :) That's my view but i could be wrong of course. it could be not funny in game or not balanced. This i cannot know because it requires testing :)

5th-6th point : about the ring you are right, still it's work in progress. I would still work on greedyness and brutal power anyway. Because i think smaug doesn't want to resamble maia or similar creatures. He deems himself just perfect, and even more he will feel invicible under the influence of the ring i believe  ;)
I will clarify better the role of the dragon lair later on if it is not clear, i promise :)

Anyway, the FOR-AGAINST list are founded on agree-disagree on the general ideas (small details and some effects can change). I'm still quite new here (more or less 8 months),  so i have not so much experience in "management" of concept-related threads  [ugly]. But, a thing i'm learning is that we cannot agree or disagree on single details otherwise we start an eternal loop  [ugly]. So, about the general concept you agree or disagree? or i have to take you as "in-maybe" phase for now? ;). Feel yourself free to judge.
Of course i will take into account all the ideas and modify some details and/or effect, this i can do for sure  ;). What i cannot do is twist totally the ideas, both because i quite like them as they are (otherwise i would had not proposed them  [ugly]) and last but not least because just some people agreed with them  ;)



« Letzte Änderung: 12. Dez 2017, 21:08 von AulëTheSmith »

Walküre

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #80 am: 13. Dez 2017, 15:40 »
Theoretically, there is no boundary or some sort of limit that might constrain people during the debating of a concept, provided that all belongs to the topic which is being discussed. Said that, I second the Smith's words: focusing on details is always fine, but it wouldn't be wise and constructive for our scope, if we were to twist and change the foundations of the concept radically, lest we start a chain of infinite debates and lengthy as well, without this thread benefiting from any of that. The very purpose of this topic was the showcasing of a quite established suggestion, comprised of all the needed indications. It follows that, if there is someone who agrees with the kernel of the proposal, albeit being wary of a couple of details, I wholeheartedly suggest them express themselves in plain terms first, and then we could delve deeply into the minor sides of the conceptual construction. The utmost objective of ours is the gathering of all support possible in the forum, if people share favourable opinions in regards of the founding premises of this concept.

Coming quite late to the examining of the issue, I think that leaving just Ring-heroes aside, speaking about the hypnotic gaze, is at the end of the day the best solution. Making use of the sheer lore doesn't really help here, since we're still within an in-game scenario; above all, there is a simple yet prime reason for the original choice of writing the sole Ring-heroes off the list and it's very practical: all descriptions in the game should be the most concise possible, for the sake of the players and of the very character, as having endless essays about the effects of a feature (indicating which heroes may be affected and which may not) would likely result in an awful outcome.

dkbluewizard

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #81 am: 13. Dez 2017, 15:44 »
Cool now I can hypnotize Bard and don't have to worry about that black arrow. Thank you.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Walküre

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #82 am: 13. Dez 2017, 16:14 »
Cool now I can hypnotize Bard and don't have to worry about that black arrow. Thank you.

By using your own logic, Galadriel should basically be immune to pretty much all heroes, the Witch-king could only be slain by female characters or creatures, the Dark Lord would literally be invincible, the Ring-wraiths could not be killed by standard units and the list goes on and on. The game would therefore be rendered a living hell and nightmare.

The lore serves the noblest of the purposes, when it gives rationality and substance to a given concept, finding that proper coherence that permits a feature to fare well in a real-time strategy game; not when it's used to force itself into the game in such a disruptive manner or to back ridiculous arguments.

dkbluewizard

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #83 am: 13. Dez 2017, 18:53 »
I don't think you can read into my logic. How presumptuous.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #84 am: 13. Dez 2017, 19:03 »
Theoretically, there is no boundary or some sort of limit that might constrain people during the debating of a concept, provided that all belongs to the topic which is being discussed. Said that, I second the Smith's words: focusing on details is always fine, but it wouldn't be wise and constructive for our scope, if we were to twist and change the foundations of the concept radically, lest we start a chain of infinite debates and lengthy as well, without this thread benefiting from any of that. The very purpose of this topic was the showcasing of a quite established suggestion, comprised of all the needed indications. It follows that, if there is someone who agrees with the kernel of the proposal, albeit being wary of a couple of details, I wholeheartedly suggest them express themselves in plain terms first, and then we could delve deeply into the minor sides of the conceptual construction. The utmost objective of ours is the gathering of all support possible in the forum, if people share favourable opinions in regards of the founding premises of this concept.

This is exactly what I meant, thank you Walküre the smart  ;). I mean I don't want to discourage people at all, every suggestion Is warmly welcome, but at the same time if we restar again in discussing the very bases/pillars of the concept than I'm afraid we fall in an eternal loop ("Dormammu I've come to bargain", if you got the reference   :D:D ).

Cool now I can hypnotize Bard and don't have to worry about that black arrow. Thank you.
By using your own logic, Galadriel should basically be immune to pretty much all heroes, the Witch-king could only be slain by female characters or creatures, the Dark Lord would literally be invincible, the Ring-wraiths could not be killed by standard units and the list goes on and on. The game would therefore be rendered a living hell and nightmare.

The lore serves the noblest of the purposes, when it gives rationality and substance to a given concept, finding that proper coherence that permits a feature to fare well in a real-time strategy game; not when it's used to force itself into the game in such a disruptive manner or to back ridiculous arguments.

Thank you again. I just wrote that lore is not the only thing (I used the word variable to be precise), just because the reasons you say. Also Smaug should be invulnerable to any normal arrow in game, and he should be very big, like an entire Edain castle  [ugly]. By this example you can clearly see, dkblue, that you cannot be so much attached to the lore because still is a game. We Must find the right trade off between gameplay and lore. The right equilibrium between the two is the only way. Walküre raised optimal point in this sense, and clear examples.

dkbluewizard

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #85 am: 13. Dez 2017, 19:26 »
If I was so attached to the lore, I would still be complaining about Smaug being a ring hero when in the books it says that he can't use any of his treasure (a brass ring of it). States that in the Hobbit.

So I don't think I am stuck on the lore. I am stuck on balance though, and that is why I said what I said.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #86 am: 13. Dez 2017, 19:49 »
If I was so attached to the lore, I would still be complaining about Smaug being a ring hero when in the books it says that he can't use any of his treasure (a brass ring of it). States that in the Hobbit.

So I don't think I am stuck on the lore. I am stuck on balance though, and that is why I said what I said.

Balance is important too. But, I think taking into account the power of the heroes and setting a proper duration time of the hypnotic state we can reach a good equilibrium, together with a fun to play ability  ;)

dkbluewizard

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #87 am: 13. Dez 2017, 19:58 »
So how long then? Same length of time as Saruman's ability? I might go for that.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

Walküre

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #88 am: 13. Dez 2017, 21:01 »
So how long then? Same length of time as Saruman's ability? I might go for that.

In this mundane and whimsical forum of ours, as you once branded it, people gather together and try to find shared compromises. This is what debating is all about and you know this very well. Hence, you might try to avoid coming up with other replies of the kind that is shown in previous passages. Not only do they not contribute to the topic, but they also frustrate the activity of those who are genuinely interested in finding solutions. Some people might lose patience and stop appeasing your voluble temper. I know you can be much more creative, when you really want to.

I don't think you can read into my logic. How presumptuous.

Besides, if you don't like me or if I irritate you in some ways, it's totally fine. No one is compelled or forced to interact with every member of the community. It is not via compulsion that bonds blossom and prosper. Only, there are forum rules that need to be respected and customary norms that ensure a pleasant environment to be established. In any case, whether you like it or not, I have so much respect for Aulë and for all the work he has poured into this proposal, and that's why I assure you that this thread shall not be held hostage of a single unstable person.

dkbluewizard

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #89 am: 13. Dez 2017, 21:21 »
So how long then? Same length of time as Saruman's ability? I might go for that.

In this mundane and whimsical forum of ours, as you once branded it, people gather together and try to find shared compromises. This is what debating is all about and you know this very well. Hence, you might try to avoid coming up with other replies of the kind that is shown in previous passages. Not only do they not contribute to the topic, but they also frustrate the activity of those who are genuinely interested in finding solutions. Some people might lose patience and stop appeasing your voluble temper. I know you can be much more creative, when you really want to.

I don't think you can read into my logic. How presumptuous.

Besides, if you don't like me or if I irritate you in some ways, it's totally fine. No one is compelled or forced to interact with every member of the community. It is not via compulsion that bonds blossom and prosper. Only, there are forum rules that need to be respected and customary norms that ensure a pleasant environment to be established. In any case, whether you like it or not, I have so much respect for Aulë and for all the work he has poured into this proposal, and that's why I assure you that this thread shall not be held hostage of a single unstable person.

I agree, so feel free to back out anytime, I have said nothing wrong or insulting. Unlike you.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.