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Autor Thema: Smaug, the Chiefest and Greatest of Calamities  (Gelesen 37502 mal)

The Witch-King of Angmar

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #90 am: 2. Jan 2018, 12:37 »
Wonderful suggestion I like the whole thing, count me in +1

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #91 am: 2. Jan 2018, 14:52 »
Then I'll put your name in the green list, Wielder of the Iron Crown!! xD thank you for your support :)

Garlodur

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #92 am: 14. Jan 2018, 18:30 »
You are both completely right Aulë and Walk. The topic should focus on the core of the concept, the abilities and details are of later importance.

Thus I wanted to address a few things I noticed while reading through the first page proposal again.

First, there seem to be 6 abilities in both Smaug forms, including one for landing and for taking flight. Is this on purpose? I imagine it would be interesting to have the stances button work in this aspect, but on the other side it grants a strong mass-slayer hero more ability slots, which should be balanced out in the end by making his abilities relatively weaker.

Second, the Dragon Lair aspect needs some refinement. I assume it will be built on an outpost spot, which begs the question what other purposes it fulfills. Also, we need to determine its style: will it be like the Dale village, Mirkwood or Border Stronghold? Or perhaps a design unique to the Goblin playstyle, offering straightforward and simple gameplay? With that in mind we can establish the cost of the outpost, which has direct consequences for the strategic timing of the Tribute system, and indirectly to Smaug's strength.

Personally I would like to see the Misty Mountains as an uncomplicated faction which gets many of its upgrades, buffs, leadership and building levels through instantaneous and temporary means. This should offer an interesting contrast to factions that are strong throughout all phases of the game (Dwarves and Lórien), as well as to factions that build up power till a late game climax (Isengard and Imladris).

What this means for the Dragon Lair outpost in particular, and the central spell for the Misty Mountains in general, is a clear distinction between the different stages of upgraded creep lairs. So far we know the Misty Mountains builds Warg/Wolf lairs and Troll Caves on settlements, and two outposts related to Dragons and Mountain Giants. These buildings will offer two-tiered advantages to the player: initially they will produce resources and recruit corresponding monsters, in the second phase they offer buffs or unlock certain units.

The Dragon Lair recruits Fire Drakes (perhaps Cold Drakes too, if a niche is found for them) and produces medium resources in the beginning. As the Central Spell is unlocked the Drakes can be upgraded through the system known from 3.8 growing up with wings etc. (correct me if I'm wrong here, I haven't played this version). Additionally Smaug can be summoned through tributes. As for Smaug I would propose these tributes to unlock a certain abilities rather than increase his level, because it seems more simple to me and because it allows for making the Tribute System feel more necessary. Thus it is worthwhile investing in all 'steps' of tributes, because they unlock 3-4 of his abilities.

I hope this inspires you Aulë. I promise to keep a frequent eye out on the developments here  ;)

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #93 am: 16. Jan 2018, 23:43 »
You are both completely right Aulë and Walk. The topic should focus on the core of the concept, the abilities and details are of later importance.

Thus I wanted to address a few things I noticed while reading through the first page proposal again.

First, there seem to be 6 abilities in both Smaug forms, including one for landing and for taking flight. Is this on purpose? I imagine it would be interesting to have the stances button work in this aspect, but on the other side it grants a strong mass-slayer hero more ability slots, which should be balanced out in the end by making his abilities relatively weaker.

Second, the Dragon Lair aspect needs some refinement. I assume it will be built on an outpost spot, which begs the question what other purposes it fulfills. Also, we need to determine its style: will it be like the Dale village, Mirkwood or Border Stronghold? Or perhaps a design unique to the Goblin playstyle, offering straightforward and simple gameplay? With that in mind we can establish the cost of the outpost, which has direct consequences for the strategic timing of the Tribute system, and indirectly to Smaug's strength.

Personally I would like to see the Misty Mountains as an uncomplicated faction which gets many of its upgrades, buffs, leadership and building levels through instantaneous and temporary means. This should offer an interesting contrast to factions that are strong throughout all phases of the game (Dwarves and Lórien), as well as to factions that build up power till a late game climax (Isengard and Imladris).

What this means for the Dragon Lair outpost in particular, and the central spell for the Misty Mountains in general, is a clear distinction between the different stages of upgraded creep lairs. So far we know the Misty Mountains builds Warg/Wolf lairs and Troll Caves on settlements, and two outposts related to Dragons and Mountain Giants. These buildings will offer two-tiered advantages to the player: initially they will produce resources and recruit corresponding monsters, in the second phase they offer buffs or unlock certain units.

The Dragon Lair recruits Fire Drakes (perhaps Cold Drakes too, if a niche is found for them) and produces medium resources in the beginning. As the Central Spell is unlocked the Drakes can be upgraded through the system known from 3.8 growing up with wings etc. (correct me if I'm wrong here, I haven't played this version). Additionally Smaug can be summoned through tributes. As for Smaug I would propose these tributes to unlock a certain abilities rather than increase his level, because it seems more simple to me and because it allows for making the Tribute System feel more necessary. Thus it is worthwhile investing in all 'steps' of tributes, because they unlock 3-4 of his abilities.

I hope this inspires you Aulë. I promise to keep a frequent eye out on the developments here  ;)

Hi Garlodur, i'm happy you finally come to the thread again, really :)
No, i admit that it was not intentional, but we could definely consider the stance system with the two landing/flying optionas. I find it a good idea. Smaug, after all doesn't really need the three classical stances :) it's true that in this way we had an additional ability, but it also true that one of them i add is passive and influence the armor only ("Impenetrable Armor"), even if in significantly (a suppose +50% it will change his armor in a punchy way, it requires testing to be sure and set a proper value) :). IN the end i like the proposal of making it stance system. I shall insert it in da concept  ;)

I hope it will be in the way you described, troll and wolves in settlements, and more powerful creatures (Giants and Dragons), in outpost. At the beginning i remember i considered the Dragon lair as based on levels, and this is what i put in the main concept, since it matches better with my idea of tributes system. But, now that i'm thinking better, the outpost usually they are not bind to any levels. I'm a little bit torn inside about how to imporve the tributes and dragon lair, despite i'm still sure about unlocking more powerful creature after the central spell, like windged dragon and cold drakes for examples (it could turn also to 6 points of cost, if 5 will be judged as too low balance-wise). Cold-drakes could be strong against structures (like short range siege weapons,thus absolving the same role of battering-rams), winged dragons against units, and so on. I'm just throwing ideas :)

I like your general ideas about dragon lair and i invite you to better develop them, posting them here when they will be ready, take your time of course. I'm look forward to discuss :) 




Walküre

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #94 am: 23. Jan 2018, 15:09 »
Due to the own proposal getting more than 15 votes of approval, as it used to be customary in the past, I shall hereafter include it among the other major concepts of our forum, worthy of considerable note. I'm glad that another proposal joins the family of the Fantastic Four, as I call them. Nevertheless, I hope that what is to be will in fact be well-boding for the purpose of our concerted effort :)

May I also thank all of those who have contributed greatly for the cause and made sure that a really fruitful debate was possible in the politest terms; and I would stress the latter, lest nothing good could result from all of this. It will obviously be possible to garner additional support or negative feedback. The thread will remain open to all.

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #95 am: 24. Jan 2018, 10:05 »
Due to the own proposal getting more than 15 votes of approval, as it used to be customary in the past, I shall hereafter include it among the other major concepts of our forum, worthy of considerable note. I'm glad that another proposal joins the family of the Fantastic Four, as I call them. Nevertheless, I hope that what is to be will in fact be well-boding for the purpose of our concerted effort :)

May I also thank all of those who have contributed greatly for the cause and made sure that a really fruitful debate was possible in the politest terms; and I would stress the latter, lest nothing good could result from all of this. It will obviously be possible to garner additional support or negative feedback. The thread will remain open to all.

And i say that it's an honor for me Walküre!  :) You used the right words, i heartly thank as well everyone involved to the discussion  :)  we'll keep on improving what is to be improved of this concept, along with collecting positive/negative votes.
So once again i invite everyone to express his vote about concept's core and forward his/her opinion about what is to be developed or changed in terms of details. I'm constantly thinking about the works i've started, and the my prime goal is making every concept fruitful for the community  :)

Garlodur

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #96 am: 29. Jan 2018, 12:53 »
Aulë, I did some more thinking on this concept and especially how to incorporate it with the central spell.

I differ a bit in your interpretation of the Dragon Lair, but please bear with me. I am only trying to explore different directions!


Wow, this was more writing than I expected. As always, I hope to have given a clear elaboration of my ideas.

Best,
Garlodur

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #97 am: 3. Feb 2018, 01:37 »
Hi Garlodur, first of all i'm sorry for late answer, i just had not sufficient time for a proper answer :)
I write in total sincerity: your ideas are well explained, and i like them in the whole  ;) I only have few doubts that i'll adress further on in this post  ;)

 I didn't come up with the iconic "Untamed Allagiance" during the creation of the concept, but i think that's a good idea!! "Spoils of the infesting creatures" it is generic too,  it's more specific given that it adresses only one of the aspect of the monsters swarm. i remember someone during the discussion who takes into account the fact that "Spoils of the wild creatures" could be redundand with a possible reintroduction of the classical "Scavenger" passive spell, speaking in terms of names and which things they rapresent.
I think the classic spell's name could be a good replacement. I'd be glad to hear the opinion of the community, but i'm quite conviced to change it in favour of yours  :)
However,as a last remark about the matter, Smaug among all is the one who most rapresents this aspect, being him the most untamable of the monsters. All of the other monsters are still in someway manipulable, despite in a wilder sense with respect to other factions. But this is not so true for Smaug and his hosts of drakes. Dragons are usually very intelligent and so aware of what they can do with their great power. This aspect make them more undependent as well as untamed, precisely  ;)
 Even in the case you refill his cave with gold, Smaug would be a "detached" ally, who answers to no one but himself ;) Needless to say, as we all know it is the most terrible and destructive monsters. So i would stay with the current palantir picture or a similar one which depicts him in a significant way :)

As for the influence on the other structures, i share your vision as i just said some posts ago  :) The central power should unlock "elite" equipment for monsters as well as unlocking terrible new dragons :) I will instert them as a first example quoting you too, and i'm sure when MM will be near we will discuss more about the matter. I saw there are many ideas and visions in the thread MM speculations and questions  ;)

Coming again to the very protagonist of the thread: the ring form and tribute system. If i understood well would you like to make him unlocking abilities by paying tributes. I saw something like that in Hero Submod videos, and it seems quite fitting with the character, even though i would make it more simple. The old one it was too complicated. And, what about the level when you summon him in his temporary form? Should he get limited stats, but with the liberty to unlock all the abilities even though the central spell is not unlocked yet? Admitted that it was in your idea to keep the temporary summon. I'm sorry it is just to better understand your view about the matter, maybe i lost something during reading  :D

Regarding the ring form: it is similar to my idea, from the moment Smaug wears the ring, both because of grediness and because of the Golden armor, he will become slower and uncontrollable. But if you want Smaug's power inverse proportional to your stockpile, then maybe it could not be so effective given that it is a late game hero, and in late game usually you have a lot of resources? Ok let's say in this way the player is encouraged to squander his great wealth in order to reinforce Smaug  [ugly].

Anyway, let me know what do you think in details  :)


Walküre

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #98 am: 3. Feb 2018, 16:20 »
I agree with the core reasoning of Aulë and I add this: taking into account the new role of central spells and their pivotal meaning (they're also referred to as faction spells not without a reason), I see Smaug as the most fitting candidate for our purpose. He towers in potency over all other beasts and simply refuses to swear allegiance to anyone, unless it is for his own advantage; let alone being forced into an alliance by means of intimidation or other tricks. Moreover, although the future spells of the Misty Mountains are still wrapped in mystery, if I were to reintroduce Untamed Allegiance in the spellbook, I would leave the spell as a basic feature (first or second tier) and unaltered, being it already unique and quite iconic.

So, the kernel is that I would nonetheless have Smaug be at the centre of things. We have already gone through the proper quality of the character and his independent trait. I think such implementation would do him justice.

Besides, set aside details and alternatives, do you feel like agreeing with the general structure of the proposal, Garlodur? :)

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #99 am: 4. Feb 2018, 17:43 »
I agree with the core reasoning of Aulë and I add this: taking into account the new role of central spells and their pivotal meaning (they're also referred to as faction spells not without a reason), I see Smaug as the most fitting candidate for our purpose. He towers in potency over all other beasts and simply refuses to swear allegiance to anyone, unless it is for his own advantage; let alone being forced into an alliance by means of intimidation or other tricks. Moreover, although the future spells of the Misty Mountains are still wrapped in mystery, if I were to reintroduce Untamed Allegiance in the spellbook, I would leave the spell as a basic feature (first or second tier) and unaltered, being it already unique and quite iconic.

So, the kernel is that I would nonetheless have Smaug be at the centre of things. We have already gone through the proper quality of the character and his independent trait. I think such implementation would do him justice.

Besides, set aside details and alternatives, do you feel like agreeing with the general structure of the proposal, Garlodur? :)

Indeed Smaug should be a central figure. Dragons are undoubtedly the elite monsters of MM : powerful, proud and independent creatures; with the unique edge to be too much greedy ;)
By the way, I get the uniqueness you are taking about, given that the original spell allowso you to take control of wild caves, underlining in this way what will the most relevant characteristic of the faction: unpredictability. However, I found the name also proper for our central spell because it is general and involves a wider range of creatures with respect tI my original "spoils of infesting creatures". Which general too but referred to a specific aspect, that could have a redundant meaning with "plunderer.
So, to conclude, what do you propose,  kind Walküre, as an alternative name? I would keep the nature of the spell unaltered, which involves upgrades for every monsters, with smaug as central palantir as mentioned before for many reasons. And also, what do you think about ring effects on our great dragon?
I invite Garlodur too to express his vote ;)

Walküre

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #100 am: 4. Feb 2018, 19:25 »
Let me see...

Well, I will perhaps try to come up with other options for the spell's title, in spite of the fact that I think the current solution would do fine either way. Yet, it's better to have more elements to examine rather than fewer. The theme of the title will not change, though. I still recommend it be centred on greed.

I don't have an enough clear portrait of his Ring form. I thus postpone my final judgement; nevertheless, I had already agreed with the basic idea of Smaug the Golden, whose in-game presence would be grandiosely enhanced via gold-toned textures, methinks. This is my personal stance on the concept so far.

Garlodur

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #101 am: 4. Feb 2018, 20:23 »
Besides, set aside details and alternatives, do you feel like agreeing with the general structure of the proposal, Garlodur? :)

Yes, I definitely do! I probably forgot mentioning it, but my ideas indicate my interest to the topic. I would like to see Smaug represented in a unique way fitting to the standards of the Mod and the Misty Mountains faction itself. As the proposal grows I see that the general implementation has been made clearer. And with your contribution, Walk, it must be good enough for the Team to consider.

Coming again to the very protagonist of the thread: the ring form and tribute system. If i understood well would you like to make him unlocking abilities by paying tributes. I saw something like that in Hero Submod videos, and it seems quite fitting with the character, even though i would make it more simple. The old one it was too complicated. And, what about the level when you summon him in his temporary form? Should he get limited stats, but with the liberty to unlock all the abilities even though the central spell is not unlocked yet? Admitted that it was in your idea to keep the temporary summon. I'm sorry it is just to better understand your view about the matter, maybe i lost something during reading  :D

Regarding the ring form: it is similar to my idea, from the moment Smaug wears the ring, both because of grediness and because of the Golden armor, he will become slower and uncontrollable. But if you want Smaug's power inverse proportional to your stockpile, then maybe it could not be so effective given that it is a late game hero, and in late game usually you have a lot of resources? Ok let's say in this way the player is encouraged to squander his great wealth in order to reinforce Smaug  [ugly].

Anyway, let me know what do you think in details  :)

Right, I was hoping not to confound my text with details, but I'm happy to explain myself.

In my suggestion I wrote that Smaug can be summoned, but also permanently recruited after buying the Central Spell 'Untamed Allegiance'. So far we agree on this implementation.

Yet, I don't like how in Aulë's concept the tributes increase Smaug's level. I fear it will be a bit buggy, beside being a bit too complicated to introduce and balance out. We are discussing a late-game option to the Misty Mountains, a faction that has weaker troops in general and benefits from numbers rather than military power. Such is my interpretation of the ModDB articles posted by the Edain Team a few years ago.

Therefore I want to suggest a tribute system that unlocks Smaug's abilities in his summoned and permanent form at the same time. Initially when having built the Dragon Lair Smaug can be summoned to the battlefield for a short time, with a long cooldown. But the player can also choose to make tributes to Smaug that unlock abilities, increase his summon, or shorten the cooldown. I think the best comparison is with Lorien's buildings that are upgraded in steps increasing Command Points, recruitment speed and unit production. With this mechanic, a player recruits/summons Smaug at level 1, with one/two abilities, levelling ordinarily. Yet to extend his power (which should feel like exponential growth) the player is required to pay tribute and unlock his other abilities, that will be unlocked regardless of level requirements. This gives Smaug even a SUPER-late-game aspect, when the match lingers on despite his presence.

I believe that this gives Smaug the extra edge over standard heroes, and highlights his strength as (one of) the last fire-breathing dragons in Middle-Earth. It is through similar intricate systems that the Necromancer (and hopefully soon the Lady of Light  ;)) is implemented. Furthermore, the distribution of abilities through the tribute system makes it easier to balance Smaug in gameplay without having to reduce his stats to a level unworthy of dragons. All in all it will make him nearly the most expensive hero in-game (after the Necromancer's Tasks), while initially recruitable by AI as well.

Please do ask if you want more convincing. I am happy to provide  :)

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #102 am: 4. Feb 2018, 23:13 »
Ok let's do in this way: for now i will keep the current name of the spell, maybe further on we will discuss again on the name, basing on which will be the ideas of the upcoming faction and its spellbook, especially regarding Untamed Allegiance, which has ancient roots; back in vanilla game (Same as for Pluderer).
Beside this, the ideas of Garlodur make a clearer view about the influence in various lair/caves, and i would like to see something like this in game. I really needed fresh ideas about this incompleted matter, as i wrote on main concept; so i'll add them into that part.
For the ring version, i will very comfortable with what i conceived in the past, Walkure. So don't worry i won't change anything on basic ideas ;). In that place also, as for central spell, i need addition rather than changes. For now it is still under development. I have some doubts about what Garlodur proposes on relation between ring Smaug and player resources, for the reasons i stated.
Regarding instead the tribute system, i'll make it more cool to play starting from Garlodur's ideas for sure. I sincerely did not spend so much time on that part  [ugly] rather i concentrated all my efforts on main abilities and core.

Walküre

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #103 am: 5. Feb 2018, 09:14 »
Other options for the spell's own title could be the ones I am to show below. Note that each of them connects with the major theme of greed of the faction, which undoubtedly underlines all. While, if I may say, Untamed Allegiance explores a quite different aspect referring to the feral character of those minions and beasts in general. I therefore suggested it be left untouched and just stay where it is (probably) to be placed. Anyway, these are the names I conceived.

1. Ruthless Greed
2. Obsession for Gold
3. Golden Folly
4. Cursed Treasure
5. Cursed Spoils
6. Impious Infestation
7. Fell Thieving
8. Token of Woes
9. Ill Spoils
10. Usurper

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Smaug, the Cheapest and Greatest of Calamities
« Antwort #104 am: 5. Feb 2018, 11:59 »
Other options for the spell's own title could be the ones I am to show below. Note that each of them connects with the major theme of greed of the faction, which undoubtedly underlines all. While, if I may say, Untamed Allegiance explores a quite different aspect referring to the feral character of those minions and beasts in general. I therefore suggested it be left untouched and just stay where it is (probably) to be placed. Anyway, these are the names I conceived.

1. Ruthless Greed
2. Obsession for Gold
3. Golden Folly
4. Cursed Treasure
5. Cursed Spoils
6. Impious Infestation
7. Fell Thieving
8. Token of Woes
9. Ill Spoils
10. Usurper

Maybe it's true the prejudice about us engineers : we have no fantasy  :D :D that's why I need you everytime I have to come up with names Walküre  :D Usurpers I like, it is general not only referred to treasure meaning precious things, but spoils in a wider sense ;) also Fell thieving  or impious infestation I like  ;)