[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Imladris Suggestions

Loremaster Reconceptualization

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NoldorSithLordsShipwright:
Several people have noted problems with the Loremasters, particularly their ability in sufficient numbers to effectively lock enemies into either debuffs, stuns, or fear and to spam heal your army. They’re also somewhat difficult to handle, being quite micro intensive especially in larger numbers. I’m aware that they are broken enough to be banned in competitive multiplayer matches.

A solution to this could be to make Loremasters prohibitively expensive and increase their CP. In my opinion, this is ultimately a Band-Aid solution to what I believe is a problem with their current concept altogether, especially when these units have the potential to be great without breaking the game.

In addition, several people have noted the lore problems with the Loremaster’s abilities, which seems to put them on the level of ancient, powerful elves such as Elrond and Galadriel and Istari such as Gandalf, Saruman, and Radagast. It can be argued that such power be reserved strictly for such heroes.

There are several aspects to my proposed solution. Core points will be bolded, specifics (such as numbers and exact effects) will be kept under the spoiler function.

1) Change the loremasters’ basic attacks to melee.

As evidenced by the match between RuudDevil and Necro, loremasters of light with just their basic attacks are able to force a player to retreat their Ring Mode Sauron while their stun and fear abilities helped keep Mordor’s army pinned down. Loremasters of wind are also far too effective, especially in numbers, in keeping enemy armies knocked down. Really, in sufficient numbers loremasters can generally be devastating and overpowering. While a valid strategy would be to focus them down, their ranged attacks and special abilities on top of their relatively high health (1000 hp last I checked) make them too easily protected.

Switching their attack to melee would make them far more vulnerable due to their relatively low armor and emphasize Imladris’ prominent weakness against massed archers/artillery.

To compensate and so that they don’t simply become generic or too easily slaughtered in a melee, their attacks would have special properties depending on the loremaster’s specialty.


* Stone: Moderately high single-target siege damage that lowers a building’s armor value; low damage against units with small area of effect; enemy units are knocked down and pinned.
* Seas: Small area of effect. Moderately low damage. Enemy units are drenched and suffer movement and attack speed penalties.
* Light: Single-target. High damage. Enemy units are stunned and blinded by brilliant light and more vulnerable to fear and magic damage.
* Winds: Moderate area of effect. Low damage. Enemy units are blown back.
2) Remove the loremasters’ current abilities.

I already covered the balance issues with the basic attacks and their abilities as well, especially when deployed in numbers (spam heal, fear, and stun). The nature of the abilities and basic attacks is such that one could potentially reach a critical mass of loremasters and be able to render enemy actions useless. Ultimately, I felt that the abilities, both basic and combined had to go, along with the ability to combine with each other.

I understand this will require compensation for the loss of such impressive abilities. Which leads me to the next part of my proposal.

3) With the abilities removed, Mystical Studies is replaced with this concept:

Distribution of Lore: Specialized loremasters attached to a battalion grant the battalion unique bonuses in addition to a boost in experience gain. Only one loremaster may attach to a battalion.

Stone: Allows the attached battalion to damage gates and grants them 25% resistance to damage from siege engines. The damage they inflict will never be more than half the damage that a battering ram can inflict in the same amount of time.
Seas: The attached battalion gains 50% resistance to magic, elemental, and poison damage and is affected 50% more by healing effects.
Light: Grants the attached battalion stealth detection and increased sight range. Units attacked by the attached battalion receive a temporary 25% penalty to damage, attack range, and sight range. The damage penalty does not apply to siege units. This penalty is applied by trample damage and trample revenge damage.
Winds: Grants the attached battalion 25% bonus movement speed. Melee units get 15% attack speed while ranged units get 15% attack range.

Advanced Distribution of Lore: The active abilities (minus the formation/weapon toggles) of battalions with a loremaster attachment are enhanced.

Rivendell Swordsmen


--- Zitat ---Stand Fast: For 30 seconds, the Swordsmen gain 25% armor and slow enemy cavalry 30% more when they are trampled.
--- Ende Zitat ---


* Stone: The Swordsmen are like stone pillars that support the structures of Imladris and form the backbone of Imladris’ forces. The Swordsmen gain additional 25% armor.
* Seas: The Swordsmen act like a river, slowing those who would dare to cross them. Trample drag is increased by 20% and attacks decrease the speed of hit enemies by 15%.
* Light: The Swordsmen act as pillars of light for their fellow allies, banishing confusion. The Swordsmen are unaffected by Dissent effects.
* Wind: The swings of the Swordsmen are such that the wind moves with their blades, allowing them to affect the flight of nearby objects. The Swordsmen gain 10% resistance to arrows and flying units, and flying units that strike the swordsmen gain a 50% speed penalty.

--- Zitat ---Advance: The Swordsmen gain 25% damage and 35% movement speed for 30 seconds.
--- Ende Zitat ---


* Stone: The march of the Swordsmen is as steady as the movement of the earth. The Swordsmen cannot be knocked down.
* Seas: The march of the Swordsmen is as the coming of the tide. The Swordsmen cannot be slowed down.
* Light: The Swordsmen train their sight forward, their keen eyes guided by the light of the loremaster. Forward sight range increased by 30% for 30 seconds. Affects stealth detection range, so still useful under Omiscience.
* Winds: The Swordsmen advance with the wind. The Swordsmen gain additional 15% movement speed.
Rivendell Spearmen


--- Zitat ---Shield Wall: The spearmen change their fighting style and use their shields to protect themselves. They gain 70% armor but lose 30% movement speed for 30 seconds
--- Ende Zitat ---


* Stone: Like the walls of stone that defend their citadels, the Spearmen are difficult to smash down. The Spearmen gain tripled resistance against knock-back and trample and slow cavalry down thrice as much.
* Seas: Just as the power of Ulmo deters evil creatures from crossing over the waters of Arda, so too do the Spearmen deter the forces of evil from crossing them. The Spearmen’s resistance to magic, elemental, and poison damage is tripled for 30 seconds.
* Light: The Spearmen wield their great shields as mirrors, reflecting light into the eyes of their enemies. Enemy units within moderate range in front of this battalion lose 100% sight range and 10% attack and stealthed units are revealed. This effect persists for 5 seconds after leaving the area of effect.
* Winds: The Spearmen orient themselves with the wind at their backs which wards away any missiles that would harm them. The Spearmen receive tripled armor against arrow damage for 30 seconds.
Blade Masters of Rivendell


--- Zitat ---Focused Assault: For 30 seconds, the Blade Masters deal increased damage against enemies without heavy armor.
--- Ende Zitat ---


* Stone: The Blade Masters strike with force enough to splinter armor. Damage bonus applies to units with heavy armor.
* Seas: Like a maelstrom, the Blade Masters wield their blades to draw their enemies in to be killed. Struck enemies are pinned for 2 seconds.
* Light: Light shines off the weapons of the Blade Masters, dazzling enemies as they whirl their weapons. All enemies damaged by the Blade Masters lose 50% sight and attack range and 10% damage.
* Winds: The Blade Masters channel the wind with the strikes of their blades, helping them to strike even those opponents just out of the reach of their weapons. The area of effect of their basic attack is increased by 25%.
Veterans of the Last Alliance


--- Zitat ---Masterful Example: Increases the experience gain of nearby units by 50%.
--- Ende Zitat ---

Loremaster effect: Triples the experience gain of nearby units and grants them the attached Loremaster’s LV. 1 bonus. This does not stack with the bonuses granted by other loremasters of the same specialty or the Gathering of Lore defensive bonus nor does it affect their active abilities.
Middle-earth’s Last Line of Defense


--- Zitat ---LV. 1: the Veterans gain double damage at the cost of 50% speed
--- Ende Zitat ---


* Stone: The Veterans are equipped with the knowledge to rend the earth and the structures built atop it. Each attack on enemy buildings slows down their production by 25%. The effect is improved at level 20.
* Seas: The Veterans attack in a steady rhythm like the ebb and flow of the sea, wearing away the shore. Each strike on an enemy hero, monster, or building wears down 5% of their armor, stacking until their armor is stripped completely.
* Light: Light shines from the weapons of the Veterans, dazzling non-elite enemy units. Enemies are stunned for 3 seconds when damaged.
* Winds: The Veterans move in haste and are unaffected by any speed maluses, including this one.

--- Zitat ---LV. 10: the Veterans gain 50% armor
--- Ende Zitat ---


* Stone: With each attack the Veterans suffer, the Veterans better find their grounding, losing 25% speed and gaining 25% armor, stacking until a max of 100% speed loss and 100% armor gain.
* Seas: The Sea constantly reforms no matter how one strikes at it. So long as the Veterans are in combat, they slowly regain health, but at 25% the rate they heal out of combat.
* Light: The golden armor of the Veterans shines bright, giving hope to allies. Nearby allies are unaffected by fear and negative auras such as Dread Visage.
* Winds: The wind of their blows carries enemies away. The Veterans’ attacks knock enemies back.

--- Zitat ---LV. 15: the Veterans become immune to knock-back and trample
--- Ende Zitat ---


* Stone: The Veterans resist 90% of siege damage.
* Seas: The Veterans resist 90% of magic, elemental, and poison damage.
* Light: The Veterans cannot lose their leaderships.
* Winds: The Veterans resist 90% of arrow damage.

--- Zitat ---LV. 20: the Veterans deal triple damage
--- Ende Zitat ---


* Stone: The lore of Aulë deals not only in the materials of the earth but in all manner of constructs. The Veterans’ attacks disable enemy buildings and can open enemy gates.
* Seas: All the firstborn seek healing and rest across the sea. The Veterans stand in defense of all those firstborn who grow weary of Middle-earth. Every attack suffered by the Veterans slowly heals surrounding allied units by a fixed amount. Does not affect fellow Veterans.
* Light: All the brood of Morgoth fear the light of Varda and few can stand before her radiance. The veterans channel her light in battle and whenever a Veteran kills an elite unit, heroic unit, or monster, non-elite enemy units cower before the Veterans. Whenever the Veterans kill a hero, all non-heroic enemy units flee before the Veterans.
* Winds: The Veterans learn to wield the wind with their blades, letting the winds of Manwë carry their blows across the battlefield. The Veterans’ attacks gain a moderate area of effect. Enemies further away from the main target are damaged less but are still affected by knock-back.
Rivendell Lancers


--- Zitat ---Ride Them Down: Rivendell Lancers passively deal twice as much flanking damage as other cavalry. This ability can be activated to give the Lancers 30% speed and 50% less deceleration when trampling.
--- Ende Zitat ---


* Stone: The Lancers act like a mighty hammer, dealing doubled trample damage when activated.
* Seas: When activated, as when an opened flood gate allows water to pass through, each enemy killed by trampling increases the cooldown speed of this ability by 1%.
* Light: When activated, trampled enemies flee for fear of the light of the lancers.
* Winds: When activated, Lancers gain an additional 20% speed and 25% less deceleration.
Glorfindel’s Wind Riders


--- Zitat ---Ride Like the Wind: The Wind Riders urge their mounts on, decelerating 90% less when trampling at the cost of 90% of their damage.
--- Ende Zitat ---


* Stone: Like a landslide buries those who stand before it, the Wind Riders trample their enemies into the ground, pinning and stunning them.
* Seas: As the tide rises quicker with the steepness of the slope, so too do the Wind Riders ride. Every time an enemy survives an attack by the Wind Riders, the cooldown of this ability is decreased by 1%.
* Light: Trampled units are dazed and confused by the rush of light that is the ride of the Wind Riders. Units trampled during Ride Like the Wind turn on each other for a short time and suffer a 50% penalty to sight range and damage.
* Winds: The Wind Riders do not slow down while trampling and trampled units are knocked back with three times greater a force than normal.

--- Zitat ---Legend Slayers: The Wind Riders gain 40% damage for 30 seconds and an additional 20% damage against heroes and monsters for the duration.
--- Ende Zitat ---


* Stone: The Wind Riders’ bonus 20% damage applies to Citadels and Tol-in-Gaurhoth.
* Seas: The Wind Riders regenerate a fixed amount of health whenever they strike a hero or monster.
* Light: All non-elite enemy units flee from the Wind Riders every time they kill a monster or hero.
* Winds: The Wind Riders gain area of effect damage against heroes and monsters.
Dunedain Swordsmen


--- Zitat ---Sprint: For 20 seconds, the Dunedain move 30% faster and gain knock-back resistance.
--- Ende Zitat ---


* Stone: The Dunedain cannot be knocked back.
* Seas: As one finds it difficult to resist the undertow, so too is it difficult to disengage from the Dunedain. Struck enemy units are slowed.
* Light: The Dunedain gain 30% forward sight range for 20 seconds.
* Winds: The Dunedain gain an additional 20% movement speed for 20 seconds.
Dunedain Rangers


--- Zitat ---Unexpected Salvo: The Dunedain fire a volley of arrows, dealing triple damage and revealing hit enemies for a time.
--- Ende Zitat ---


* Stone: Target enemy units are knocked down.
* Seas: As if struck by the spray of the waves, target enemy units are slightly and temporarily slowed down.
* Light: Target enemy units are more vulnerable to fire damage.
* Winds: The wind that carries the arrows lightly damages enemies between the Rangers and the target.
The library is also now given the new passive ability: Gathering of Lore, which has varying effects based on the current level of the library

LV. 2 Library: As long as an allied loremaster of a given specialty lives and is attached to a battalion, the following improvements are made to the static defenses.


* Stone: Walls, gates, and defensive structures have increased armor against siege damage.
* Seas: Floodgate expansions activate at a faster rate and mystical fountains heal at a greater rate. Walls, gates, and all defensive structures have increased resistance to elemental and magic damage.
* Light: Defensive structures detect stealth.
* Winds: Defensive Towers and Catapults have greater maximum attack range.
LV. 3 Library: As long as an allied loremaster of a given specialty lives, all allied units and heroes within a fortress with a library are granted the same bonuses of that specialty in addition to a boost in experience gain. Bonuses granted by the library and by a loremaster do not stack with each other. This does not affect unit abilities


My explanations and defense of these features

My goal in using them as unit attachments in Distribution of Lore to provide significant boosts would allow them to remain significant, give the Imladris army a pretty strong boost but with little to no potential to reach a critical mass where the enemy is rendered unable to do anything, as well as greatly reducing their micro-intensity and maintaining strategic diversity in the faction through the improvement of an already diverse array of abilities rather than creating even more unit abilities.

With Gathering of Lore I want to emphasize the library as a central structure to the Imladris faction: upgrading buildings, allowing access to abilities, providing the faction with its loremasters, and now providing powerful defensive bonuses in conjunction with the loremasters, emphasizing Imladris as a refuge. Given how powerful this makes the library, here are some methods I feel are proper ways to balance this:


* Put a build cap on the library so that one has only one source of loremasters.
Increase the library’s base cost.
* Tweak the values of the loremasters themselves (their cost and/or command points) to better suit their new support role and the bonuses they confer. One might also place a cost for specialization.
* Have each level of Distribution of Lore require Blacksmithing and Military Studies of the corresponding level to be researched as well. One can also include other “Studies” as pre-requisites – an Architectural Studies come to mind, which would affect buildings and defenses; Mystical Studies can be brought back, this time affecting the spellbook.
Regarding the abilities*, I want to give them characteristics relating to their element or to the Vala related to them (Stone – Aulë, Seas – Ulmo, Light – Varda, and Winds – Manwë). You may notice how some Seas abilities have relation to the ebb and flow of the sea and how others deal with protection from evil (relating to how the power of Ulmo flows through all bodies of water and how the forces of evil have difficulty with crossing these bodies). Water is also associated with healing. Wind has a characterization of speed and blowing enemies over. Stone has an association with endurance and stillness and is related to constructs. Aulë is also a smith and crafted all the materials of the earth. Light deals with sight, but Varda is also the Vala feared most by the enemies of the free peoples but an inspiration to the elves. I also want the enhancements to reflect the quality of the unit. Dunedain, for example, will gain modest enhancements, the elite units of Imladris would have greater and occasionally more complex enhancements, and heroic units will have very powerful and the most complex of the enhancements.

* NOTE: For much of the process, I was rather displeased with the specific bonuses I came up with for the unit abilities, as many felt dull and uninspired and repetitive and definitely not up to the high standards of the Edain Team (or maybe I felt that way because of how long I’ve been working on this on my own) and underwent several changes to try and bring it up to this standard – I’m quite aware the Team and Community would better appreciate uniqueness in that area. But I feel like I’ve done what I could on my own and community feedback is necessary to improve and refine the ideas further.
Given the elimination of their ranged abilities and relegation to a pure support role, I don’t think this would upset the game balance that much if at all, and Imladris’ vulnerability to sustained ranged attacks, especially to artillery, is still present even if I provided some soft counters, which comes at the cost of the other significant bonuses. The player also has to choose between using the Loremasters and making your army even more elite or bolstering the faction’s already low numbers with more regular units.

I am happy with the core of the concept. Any comments, questions, and suggestions would be much appreciated. If you could also give separate comments for both the core and the specific details, that would help me immensely. Also, while I am well pleased with the core of the concept, I am not a good judge of numerical values and how well they impact a game, so comments and suggestions in that area and regarding the specific enhancements for each active ability would be most appreciated.

FG15:
Thank you for the long and elaborated concept.

But I'm against the concep as every single combination would require a completly new unit. Furthermore, about half of all the abilities aren't possible to implement and also the rest would cause bugs.

NoldorSithLordsShipwright:
I was unaware of that kind of limitation. Thanks for letting me know.

Back to the drawing board!

Walküre:
If there is no remark left to add, I think it would be wise to lock the topic. Nevertheless, I remember that we did discuss about possible improvements for Lore Masters in a past thread; it is still open and may therefore be read with ease. It is there, in case one were interested in the matter :)

--- LOCKED ---

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