29. Mär 2024, 11:16 Hallo Gast.
Willkommen Gast. Bitte einloggen oder registrieren. Haben Sie Ihre Aktivierungs E-Mail übersehen?

Einloggen mit Benutzername, Passwort und Sitzungslänge. Hierbei werden gemäß Datenschutzerklärung Benutzername und Passwort verschlüsselt für die gewählte Dauer in einem Cookie abgelegt.


Select Boards:
 
Language:
 


Autor Thema: Wait a second: Catapults?  (Gelesen 5521 mal)

Walküre

  • Edain Unterstützer
  • Hoher König von Gondor
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 4.706
Re: Wait a second: Catapults?
« Antwort #15 am: 26. Aug 2018, 03:22 »
However, my point was never that catapults (or just trebuchets) should have an immobile & firing stance because that feature is in AoE2. Whether that feature was in AoE2 or not, i would still argue for it. TBH i hadn't even realised trebuchets did this in AoE2, i never played it that regularly (i used to play the 1st when i was a kid XD).

Just because AoE is a different game with different mechanics to BMFE and has imobbile catapults, does not automatically mean that immobile catapults will be ill-suited to edain imo.

No, I get your point. Mine does not revolve around the fact that other solutions from other games cannot work in a different context, no matter what; I would be glad, if they did, but they don't really seem to fit in well, here. As stated, battles are not as spread and stretched all over the map as in Age of Empires. It would be wrong, if it weren't so, given the focus of BFME on major clashes and strategy as a whole.

Additionally, that mount/dismount feature makes trebuchets extremely vulnerable, forcing the player to divert too much attention and energy towards them; too much than it would be proper to do, I mean. Thus, this could theoretically halt the game's pace excessively and, most importantly, unnecessarily. My greatest concern, as Edain should instead flow freely and enough fluidly.
That's the most apparent divergent motive between the two games. I've therefore taken Age of Empires as an effective example due to that specific kind of stationary catapults being present there and the series' own style (the paradigm of RTS).

We already have stationary catapults on walls. I would say it's quite enough for me, and I'm in favour of them being made even more useful for defensive purposes, as you equally are. Other replicas of them on the open battlefield would not be so much fine-tuned, though, in my personal opinion.

I don't think mobile catapults would require a damage and range buff because of their lack of mobility. I think they are strong enough as it is and, as previously mentioned I think they should be weaker than wall catapults because of the outnumbering issue. You could however argue they could use a health buff vs infantry and cav, i'm not sure if it's necessary but you could debate it.

Increasing their damage and range would likely be quite an obligatory consequence, in that they should eventually be given something which truly differentiates them from their normal counterparts, thereby providing the player with a just reason to buy such tools in the first place; uniqueness among all factions and within every faction could then benefit from it. Otherwise, we would probably find ourselves with a different siege weapon at hand, albeit with no significant advantage of note (to word it better, a worthy alternative), compared to normal catapults. What's the point of their being in the Mod, in that case?

Besides, new catapults or not, I'm very pleased that siege does appear to be on the majority's radar, as an absolutely pivotal theme in the general game construction. From my side, siege might get more challenging and overall more exciting by fixing some flaws that still persist, like, the most pressing issue, pre-determined games. Once mended the lack of multiple several options in a game, widening the horizons of the strategic offer, this should hopefully have positive repercussions on everything tied to the problematic. But I don't think that said hypothetical solution goes hand in hand with changing siege weapons even more, with the sole exception of wall catapults and stressing the particularity of those which already exist (without any stationary features); other than that, I suppose they're fine as they are, especially after the changes they've already undergone in the forthcoming patch. That's all.

If you succeed in proposing suitable suggestions or additions, I wish you good luck with dealing with so vast an array of matters. Regardless of it, it's ever a pleasure to converse with you, too :)

Halbarad

  • Edain Unterstützer
  • Soldat Gondors
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 1.682
Re: Wait a second: Catapults?
« Antwort #16 am: 26. Feb 2019, 19:18 »
Hi,
first of all: The suggestions are not only about catapults but of course for Isengart ballista too.
I lately rethought the whole catapult problem and had come to the conclusion, that such an active shooting mode wouldn't be the ideal solution (although it would be much better than simply limiting catapults or increase command points or something like that). So I postet a concept in the German forum wich I want to share with you. I think balance explanations aren't necessary because Goodfella already told us here why catapults have to change.
So I found out, that all catapults usually move while being ready to fire (fire arm down). That didn't seemed so logical to me, such a tension the whole time and in all kind of weather must be bad for the material, the robes and these things. Next thing I realized: If you shoot with a catapult and then try to move it, the catapult arm goes down in about one second, like it doesn't take any effort to put it under tension.

So why don't we combine the balance-issue with the logical issues?

My suggestions
1. Catapults don't move while being under tension - so if you move it, the catapult arm goes up, not down
2. Catapults can only getting loaded and under tension while not moving (like archers only putting their bows under tension when they are standing and not moving)
3. It should take much longer to reload a catapult and put the catapult arm under tension. The animation of the arm getting under tension shouldn't be a flowing movement as it is now. The catapult-people also don't put it under tension in one flowing movement. Also we could add some sounds to make it more epic, like clicking from the movie when Mordors catapult is getting loaded or some creaking wood for catapults like we also hear it in Stronghold Crusader for example.

Trollcatapults
They shouldn't be loaded when moving. So every time player wants to shoot, a troll goes back to the sling, grabs a stone from the ground and puts it into the sling. Then he is going back to the front and then the catapult shoots.
(such a thing could be added to other catapults too)

Slowing down catapults by arrows and damage
I do like the system that arrows don't really do damage on catapults, but in reality they could hit the catapult-people (/-trolls). So how about that:
1. Catapults getting slowed down when being hit by arrows
2. Catapults getting slowed down when getting damage
3. (in addition to 2:) Catapults can be repaired by an active skill like gates have. It costs money and while being repaired the player can't use the catapult (can't move or shoot).

Gondor catapults could look a bit stupid when being moved with the catapult-arm up all the time, so I would make an exception for that. So that one has to get slowly reloaded every time it shot and only after that the player can move it. Or that one could get one active shooting mode and one active moving mode. In comparison to other catapults it does look pretty huge so that would be logical to me.

Sounds for Catapults while getting loaded:
Mordor Catapult sounds at 0:40: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX4KKkSKZAY
Sound from Stronghold Crusader/ Stronghold 2:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0xd3rearc0eh6n7/AADvXQJ7reQAxOtwLRMG6MTsa?dl=0

JackyJack

  • Hobbit
  • *
  • Beiträge: 4
  • They're taking the rum to Isengard !
Re: Wait a second: Catapults?
« Antwort #17 am: 7. Mär 2019, 04:48 »
Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum but I play Edain since 3.7 ^^
I'm very concerned by this subject since I play a lot in LAN (as someone said previously, siege against IA is not very important...).
Halbarad said it justly, today, sieges are done just with a bunch of catapults and some pikes to defend it... Personally, I never played a game (or maybe just one or two) where I needed to build siege towers, ladders or needed to do a several-phases siege (maybe I just didn't play against good players too...).
But I really think it would be good if, at a moment of the game, the attentions of both players (in a 1v1) are fixed on what's going on near the fortress.
I want, as a defender to have the opportunity to send a cav because the aggressor has to weaken one of his flanks to get into the castle...
For now, he just has to sit with his catapults, archers and pikes and right click on my wall-trebuchets. Then, he destroys the gate and it's a all-in.
Sometimes it's more tricky but it's basically how it works now...

One of the main things that I think would be essential is to drastically reduce damages of catapults against units on a wall (but I think you talked about it in your "Road to 4.5").
Second is, as Halbarad said, to make wall-trebuchets more effective than mobile catapults : the aim is to force the aggressor to attack with many different means (towers, ladders, mines...) and to attract defensor attention (understand : "force the defensor to move his screen") on a diversion points, while he takes advantage of this distraction to place mines on the other side of the fortress... this is challenging ! :D

And on the other way, even if there is a breach in the walls, the defensor has still to be able to turn the tables...

So, to return to the subject, I think that making catapults unmoveable while firing is quite a good idea... It gives a better chance to the defensor to take them down.
Anecdote : something to fix, when you command to Isengard balista to roll through rohirrim or infantry, they actually kill them... and making them unmoveable would prevent this problem ;)
It will force aggressor to always pay attention to enemy's cav... And this could be emphasised if catapults are more precious ! Maybe, a way to prevent players to always focus on catapults and win a whole game out of them is to increase their price and command points ?
They may be a real advantage (shooting buildings from afar, preventing heavy losses) but at a cost... And it's a bit historical : catapults, onagers and trebuchets were quite rare, sieges were often done with ladders and rams or by spreading fire on wooden parts or by using ruse (diversion...).
Actually, it would be far more interesting to use catapults in a more disruptive way than destructive ! Using catapults to press the enemy to act foolishly even though it doesn't kill a lot of his men... Using catapults to attract enemy's attention to allow the infantry to put foot on the walls.
I personally prefer a lot infantry battles than catapults battles and I would really like to be forced to use other siege weapons because catapults cannot win alone...

That's my desire and opinion :)
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us