16. Apr 2024, 22:03 Hallo Gast.
Willkommen Gast. Bitte einloggen oder registrieren. Haben Sie Ihre Aktivierungs E-Mail übersehen?

Einloggen mit Benutzername, Passwort und Sitzungslänge. Hierbei werden gemäß Datenschutzerklärung Benutzername und Passwort verschlüsselt für die gewählte Dauer in einem Cookie abgelegt.


Select Boards:
 
Language:
 


Autor Thema: Strengthening of faction leaders  (Gelesen 7020 mal)

Bogdan Hmel

  • Thain des Auenlandes
  • *
  • Beiträge: 32
Strengthening of faction leaders
« am: 20. Aug 2018, 01:16 »
Hello to all lovers of Edain Mod.

I apologize in advance for my English.

I think that leaders (or the strongest heroes of factions) need some strengthening. Many of them cost 3,000, but are rather fragile and in addition are highly specialized. I propose to strengthen these heroes, but also make them more expensive with the help of improvements, spellbook points or special buildings necessary for hiring a hero.

Lorien - Galadriel: Firstly, I propose to transfer her ability to "Gifts of Lorien" to another place - very strange when the third ability of the most powerful hero of the faction is used only a few times per game. Secondly, it is necessary to remove the negative effect in the fourth ability.
"Gifts of Lorien" I propose to replace with a temporary form "Ancient Might" from the concept proposed by Valkyrie. Also, I propose to add Galadriel a passive bonus to the nearest troops / heroes, since she - the heart of the faction.
To balance these improvements, I propose to add in the citadel of Lorien the construction - a mirror of Galadriel, without which it is impossible to hire a Lady of Light. In this way Galadrieli's cost will increase, but AI can still build it. Also this building will open the capacity of "Gifts of Lorien". The alternative to the mirror is Lorien's royal Talan.

Gondor - Gandalf. I propose to strengthen his automatic shield (reduce the cooldown or increase the duration of action), and add leadership for allied heroes. The gray wanderer always supported those who fight against darkness. Since Gondor already has enough heroes with leadership for the troops, Gandalf can gain leadership for the heroes. He can also influence the troops, giving them immunity to fear. I believe that it is not worthwhile to increase the value of Gandalf, because it is necessary to spend on him precious spellbook points.

Isengard - Saruman. I think that the White wizard also needs leadership for the heroes. In addition, I suggest that he add a passive effect - a chance to knock back the enemy hero during an attack - just as he does with conventional troops. Saruman is weak in open confrontation and does not have a shield, so this ability will be very useful to him.

Mordor - Witch King. The main Nazgul with the improvement of armor and so is hired for 4000 resources, this is the ideal way to increase its value. I have only one idea with his reinforcing. Boromir told that the enemies were beastly near the Witch-King. But he already has a strong passive ability, so it does not need to be made OP.

In Angmar, the Witch-King can be enhanced by using a central ability in the spellbook.

Rohan - Theoden. He does not cost 3000, unlike the other leaders, but with the help of the central ability of the book of incantations, King Rohan can get more powerful leadership (as the Edain team wants to do).

Gnomes - I think that the heroes of gnomes are already strong enough.

Imladris - Elrond and Glorfindel. In the proposals in the section "Imladris" there is a topic dedicated to Glorfindel. I agree that this hero is not strong enough. During the War of the Ring, he was one of the strongest warriors, and perhaps the strongest.
I propose to raise the price of Glorfindel to 3000 and significantly strengthen it (I will try to write about the changes in abilities in the existing topic). Also, I suggest removing the mount / dismount ability from Elrond (it seems completely unnecessary) and adding for him the ability to support troops / heroes. The cost of Elrond, I propose to raise to 3000. Thus, the player will find it hard to find 6000 resources on both heroes and will have to choose who to hire - a powerful mass slayer and a supporter or a strong tank warrior.
« Letzte Änderung: 20. Aug 2018, 01:21 von Bogdan Hmel »

Seleukos I.

  • Edain Balancetester
  • Galadhrim
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 732
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #1 am: 26. Aug 2018, 16:23 »
Hello Bogdan Hmel,
first of all I have to say you suggestiones sound quite interesting^^
Zitat
I apologize in advance for my English.
So do I^^

Lorien:
Zitat
I propose to transfer her ability to "Gifts of Lorien" to another place - very strange when the third ability of the most powerful hero of the faction is used only a few times per game.
And how often do you use Aragorn´s second ability, for example?
Many heroes have abilities, whitch you don´t use that often, but that dosn´t mean they are bad. I´m personally fine with "gifts of Lorien".

Zitat
Secondly, it is necessary to remove the negative effect in the fourth ability.
Actually I don´t think so. Without the negative effect this ability would be to strong. Just imagine you could buff Celeborn with 60% armor and damage, without any risk!

Zitat
Also, I propose to add Galadriel a passive bonus to the nearest troops / heroes, since she - the heart of the faction.
Since Lorien already has very strong leadership (Haldir 30% damage and Tranduil 25% armor and damage), I don´t think this would be necessary.
 
Gondor:
I can´t say so much about Gandalf, because I don´t use him so much (never), but this
Zitat
Gandalf can gain leadership for the heroes. He can also influence the troops, giving them immunity to fear.
would make him to strong, I think. Gondor already has immunity to fear thanks to Aragorn´s leadership and, if I´m not mistaken, Faramir´s. Even without a leadership for heroes Aragorn is hard to be killed, so making Gandalf buffing heroes would make "herospamm" even stronger as it is now.

Isengard:
Zitat
I think that the White wizard also needs leadership for the heroes.
Same as for Gondor: Herospamm would get even stronger.
Zitat
In addition, I suggest that he add a passive effect - a chance to knock back the enemy hero during an attack - just as he does with conventional troops.
Saruman isn´t supposed to fight heroes. With Lurtz you can crippel heroes and kill them with youre berserkers and Lurtz. On top of that Saruman already can use "fireball" to knock back heroes. So I would say he is strong enought.


To the witchkings I can´t say anything, beause again I never use them.^^

Dwarves:
Zitat
I think that the heroes of gnomes are already strong enough.
Here we agree.^^

Rohan:
Zitat
He does not cost 3000, unlike the other leaders, but with the help of the central ability of the book of incantations, King Rohan can get more powerful leadership
Yes, Theoden becomes a powerfull supporter as he should be.

Imladris:
Elrond:
Zitat
Also, I suggest removing the mount / dismount ability from Elrond (it seems completely unnecessary)
You are rigth, this ability is really useless.^^
Zitat
adding for him the ability to support troops / heroes.
I actually think he already gives 25% armor to nearby troops.  And he should have this spell rechargetime ability to support heroes.I think that is enought.
Glorfindel:
Zitat
I agree that this hero is not strong enough. During the War of the Ring, he was one of the strongest warriors, and perhaps the strongest.
Well, if you can level him up he is quiet a strong warrior. Of course he can´t slay an entire army anymore (like in the vanila bfme2), but he is strong enought, for me.

So that is what I think about youre suggestiones.

regardes
Seleukos I.
« Letzte Änderung: 26. Aug 2018, 16:54 von Seleukos I. »

Smeargollum

  • Edain Balancetester
  • Gesandter der Freien Völker
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 369
  • #teamfish
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #2 am: 26. Aug 2018, 20:35 »
Hello everybody,
I just want to add one littel point.
Concerning the power "Mirrow of Galadriel"
Zitat
Secondly, it is necessary to remove the negative effect in the fourth ability.
I also think that this would be wrong. Not only because of the balance but also because of the books. Sam gets discouraged when he look in the mirrow.
Zitat
Then suddenly Sam gave a cry and sprang away." I can't stay here,"he said wildly. "I must go home. They've dug up Bagshot Row, and there's the poor old Gaffer going down the hill with his bits of things on a barrow. I must go home.
The fellowship of the ring, the mirrow of Galadriel
So it is imo good and lorefrendly that is gives also debuffs.

Greeting
Smeargollum

« Letzte Änderung: 29. Aug 2018, 17:08 von Smeargollum »


"What if the real balance was the friends we made along the way?"

Walküre

  • Edain Unterstützer
  • Hoher König von Gondor
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 4.706
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #3 am: 6. Sep 2018, 13:40 »
I salute you all, gentle users of Modding Union. I come quite late to the discussion, and I apologise for that; whenever major heroes (faction leaders, for the most part) find themselves at the centre of the topic, I'm always delighted to hear about people's opinions :)

I would just like to make a couple of needed clarifications that might interest you.

1. First of all, as far as I have had knowledge until now, it's not possible to have heroes exceed the cost of 3000 resources, not even if we're talking about leaders of some given factions. You may have noticed in the game that said amount of resources (3000) is exactly the limit beyond which nobody could go. Because the Edain 4.0 balance is substantially based on that of BFME1, where no hero would in fact cost you more than the aforementioned sum.

2. As anticipated in the relative article, Angmar's Witch-king is likely to undergo a general overhaul in future patches, with this involving also the own central spell of the faction. So, I encourage you to wait, for none of your hopes will be disappointed.

3. My personal view on Elrond and some insights into what had been, at the time, the whole debate which led to the current design.

Elrond:
Zitat
Also, I suggest removing the mount / dismount ability from Elrond (it seems completely unnecessary)
You are right, this ability is really useless.^^

I completely disagree with you, here. A couple of years ago, the English community had been long discussing Elrond in the forum (you may easily find the thread in the Imladris board) and that had ultimately started a very broad topic on the matter; one of the most popular and viewed out of all the others in English boards. Users, including me and other past members of the community, provided tonnes of different arguments to back specific suggestions and, not seldom, discussion would go far across in-game boundaries and reach the pure lore.
Our common point was nonetheless the same: we were not completely satisfied with how Vilya used to be portrayed in previous versions and with the fact that the hero's design was still lacking deeper characterisation. Namely, his concept from Edain 3.8.1 was perceived too much generic and quite bland for the revolutionary 4.0 era.

Elrond is maybe one the most versatile and dynamic heroes of the Mod. Agile and able to serve a wide variety of purposes, boasting hero-supporter and mass-slayer aspects. But his main role is that of a unit supporter, without a doubt. The lore shows this defined character of his quite clearly, since he was the commander of Gil-galad's armies and his herald on the field as well. Following the death of the High King, he remained in charge of the few Noldorin elite troops who still lingered in the world. Add to this his immense experience in battle, thanks to many centuries spent at the head of Elven hosts during wartime years, and the incredible fact that he was even there, when the Host of Valinórë landed in Beleriand to end Morgoth's uncontested dominion of Middle-earth (First Age of Arda).

This peculiar trait I speak of is embodied by his leadership bonus on troops and by the very mount ability. I know that some find it boring or useless, but it's rather the opposite. Rivendell, behind the sole Rohan, is the most cavalry-based faction in the game (equalled only by Gondor, probably), relying on powerful heavy-armoured riders. Hence, there would be no point in depriving Elrond of the great possibility of riding alongside his noble knights. Having a mount also permits him to head to anywhere he's needed, carrying with him his support-oriented skills and his fearful magic. This also mirrors the vision of the Hobbit films, too, in which he does lead his riders whilst patrolling the borders.
Other alternatives I cannot think about. In Edain 3.8.1, he used to sport an ability which gifted allied heroes with a bit of experience. And features of this kind become unserviceable once they fulfil their purpose. Furthermore, it's also a quite naïve of an effect, I reckon.

His current design is therefore a marvellous example of how the community's will has been taken into consideration by the team, flourishing in an overall positive result, while going back to the past would be a blatant step backward.

4. As FG wrote on ModDB, Galadriel has undergone a total overhaul. All of her three forms. This is meant to renew her own prominence in the faction, focusing on her as it's due and endowing her with unique powers that suit the general logic at heart of the 4.5 patch.

Similarly to that past ability of Elrond, she was bound to sacrifice two precious slots of her power set to perform global-ranged magic. Yet, things will change soon! Every single ability of hers has been either replaced or improved for the better. Wait and you shall see ;)

Zitat
Then suddenly Sam gave a cry and sprang away." I can't stay here,"he said wildly. "I must go home. They've dug up Bagshot Row, and there's the poor old Gaffer going down the hill with his bits of things on a barrow. I must go home.
The fellowship of the ring, the mirrow of Galadriel
So it is imo good and lorefrendly that is gives also debuffs.

True, it's definitely lore-accurate, but also very much contradictory (game-wise). Galadriel is supposed to represent the most renowned paladin of the good side; a champion of the Free People and a guardian of peace (no surprise that the White Council was born at her specific request). We're also speaking about a level-7 ability (the one preceding her ultimate power). So, not only does that aleatory element render the ability a bit complex to figure out, but the additional negative effect of the case also kills what of good was left to use. Extremely underwhelming, I say.

As remarked above, this ability has finally been revised and given another rationale in the game, feeding from an interesting passage of the canons.

Only True Witchking

  • Elbischer Pilger
  • **
  • Beiträge: 191
  • Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #4 am: 6. Sep 2018, 14:48 »
Hello everyone.
Maybe I will give my thoughts on the Topic later, but Right now I only want to add three Points:

1. I agree that Glorfindel should be changed, and I'm currently working out a concept for him (in German).

2. I am against the idea of having Mordor-Witchking always with armour, because I really like his other form, and it looks much cooler to have all nine without upgrades. Also, the later upgrade fits the lore much better.

3. @Walküre: As far as I am aware, BFME1 Witch-King cost 8000, and Gandalf 6000.
And the Nazgul I think are 5000. So I think your point about the 3000 cost is incorrect, but I'm going to look it up a bit later, in case I'm wrong.
“In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl. A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face."

Walküre

  • Edain Unterstützer
  • Hoher König von Gondor
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 4.706
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #5 am: 6. Sep 2018, 15:26 »
Yes, you might be right. I remember now. I wanted to point out how Edain adopted and revisited the old castle-based system of BFME1, comprising fixed structures, despite giving birth to a new kind of balance. I've somehow mixed the two things together. My goodness, thank you for correcting me.

The general rule is valid, anyway: as far as Edain balance is concerned, heroes may not cost more than that, lest it imply that some factions could have overpowered or too unbalanced heroes at disposal. This would then break the coherent portrait of the game's design (which wants players to make use of all sorts of strategy, instead of being solely dependent on limited features).
« Letzte Änderung: 8. Sep 2018, 11:18 von Walküre »

Seleukos I.

  • Edain Balancetester
  • Galadhrim
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 732
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #6 am: 10. Sep 2018, 16:31 »
Hello,
@Walküre: concerning Elrond:

Zitat
Elrond is maybe one the most versatile and dynamic heroes of the Mod. Agile and able to serve a wide variety of purposes, boasting hero-supporter and mass-slayer aspects. But his main role is that of a unit supporter, without a doubt.

I agree.
Zitat
Rivendell, behind the sole Rohan, is the most cavalry-based faction in the game (equalled only by Gondor, probably), relying on powerful heavy-armoured riders. Hence, there would be no point in depriving Elrond of the great possibility of riding alongside his noble knights.
You are rigth, but don't forget, the riders of Imladris can get a speedboost and Elrond can't. So he can ride with his riders but when they use there ability, he can't follow them. Glorfindel (and I think arwen) on the other hand can get a speedboost.
 
So I personaly think Elrond (with Aragorn it's the same) dosn't need the ability to mount. Imladris (and Gondor) has/have other heroes to support cav.

The only time I saw Elrond riding was playing against FireFly^^, who uses all Imladris heroes with a horse (Elrond, Glorfindel and Arwen) to destroy my farms. And I don't think this is the way the Lord of Imladris shall be used on his horse!

So when do you use Elrond on his horse apart from running away after a lost battle?

My opinion is that this alility (mount) is a bit unnecessarybut it in't terrible.^^

Again I apologise for my quite bad english.


regardes
Seleukos I.

Walküre

  • Edain Unterstützer
  • Hoher König von Gondor
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 4.706
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #7 am: 10. Sep 2018, 17:30 »
And I thank you for replying :)

I will kindly rest with my opinion on the matter being discussed. You too have rightly acknowledged the fact that his supreme role in the faction is the support and defence of his people. This is the centre around which the entire topic does gravitate, I strongly believe. And, albeit lacking a speed boost, his pivotal unit-supporter nature is for the most part embodied by his permanent leadership.

As we've fairly pointed out, Elrond is a commander; a general and authoritative figure for anyone needing advice or help. A true leader, pure and simple. And this, I dare infer, suggests that he be well capable of assisting his troops in any eventuality that may arise (on foot or on horse). He must be there, always, whenever his people are fighting back all kinds of possible threats. So, his supportive influence does have to reach any point of the map in the quickest instant. That's how I view things and the mount is thus perfect for the purpose, considering his utmost importance in combat (on par with the hero's extremely effective magic that confers him a mass-slayer aspect).

Even if we were to replace the mount and seek other options, there wouldn't be much choice to choose from. Which ability do you think could be a worthy replacement of the current mount? I sense that, should the mount be gone, there would be room for some support-oriented features, which, however, would not fit his design very well: another unit-supporting ability would be too much and a hypothetical hero-supporting power would likewise be redundant, being the role already fulfilled by Arwen. And I wouldn't really like a situation where an experience-granting ability (like in the past) is added, because such solution would unreasonably replace a very dynamic feature, just to make space for a boring ability which would serve very little in game.

Seleukos I.

  • Edain Balancetester
  • Galadhrim
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 732
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #8 am: 10. Sep 2018, 18:14 »
Zitat
And I thank you for replying
So do I.

Zitat
  his pivotal unit-supporter nature is for the most part embodied by his permanent leadership.
This is correct. I agree.
But for me Elrond is more a general and a leader of a big army of infantery and not a man who is "waisting his time" in little skirmishes. Arwen and maybe Glorfindel are the ones who ride across the map harassing the enemy and fighting back his cav whereas Elrond is more the commander of the whole army, like king e.g. Dain.

Zitat
Even if we were to replace the mount and seek other options, there wouldn't be much choice to choose from. Which ability do you think could be a worthy replacement of the current mount?
It's a difficult question, but I would prefere something that has to do with his role as a scholar. Elrond one of the wisest elves ever, so I would like to see this part of his character represented in his abilities. But this is only an idea that came into my mind while reading youre post. Could you imagine something like this (scholar thing)?

Smeargollum

  • Edain Balancetester
  • Gesandter der Freien Völker
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 369
  • #teamfish
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #9 am: 12. Sep 2018, 17:49 »
So hello everybody,
I might be a little late at giving feetback but it was because I hhad't time.

Zitat
Then suddenly Sam gave a cry and sprang away." I can't stay here,"he said wildly. "I must go home. They've dug up Bagshot Row, and there's the poor old Gaffer going down the hill with his bits of things on a barrow. I must go home.
The fellowship of the ring, the mirrow of Galadriel
So it is imo good and lorefrendly that is gives also debuffs.

True, it's definitely lore-accurate, but also very much contradictory (game-wise). Galadriel is supposed to represent the most renowned paladin of the good side; a champion of the Free People and a guardian of peace (no surprise that the White Council was born at her specific request). We're also speaking about a level-7 ability (the one preceding her ultimate power). So, not only does that aleatory element render the ability a bit complex to figure out, but the additional negative effect of the case also kills what of good was left to use. Extremely underwhelming, I say.

As remarked above, this ability has finally been revised and given another rationale in the game, feeding from an interesting passage of the canons.
So I have to say that I haven't thougt aboet the fact that it is a level-7 ability. But still I would say that it would be wrong if the ability would only give buffs. And also I think that it would be boring if the level-7 ability of a very dinamic hero like Galadriel would only give a 0815 buffs were you don't have to think about it if you shall use it or not because it only buffs. But it is still a level-7 ability of a hero that costs 3000 resorcess and for that it miht be that the ability might be a littel bit worse.
So I would say: Why shouldn't we make it that the buffs are much stronger and also the debuffs are stronger?
This would make that the blade of the double-edged sword becomes sharper. And because of the fact that the ability can give three buffs and only one debuff and because of that it is more likely that it is a buff.
I think something like that would make the ability stronger and more interesting.

Sorry for bad english. :o
I'm looking forward to youre feetback.
Best regards
Smeargollum.
« Letzte Änderung: 12. Sep 2018, 20:24 von Smeargollum »


"What if the real balance was the friends we made along the way?"

Walküre

  • Edain Unterstützer
  • Hoher König von Gondor
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 4.706
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #10 am: 17. Sep 2018, 13:33 »
You need not worry, really. The new ability I'm talking about is going to be well worthy of a heroine of Galadriel's stature. I assure you ;)

As it was exactly envisioned, it is to prove very useful in battle, extremely beneficial and viable for dynamic situations. Because the power it entails awards great advantages, with no risk of side-effects or casual setbacks of any kind. Like I told you, the feature is inspired by another crucial happening of the canons, in which context negative influences have simply no reason to be. I would be very glad to add more information to these vague hints of mine, but I can't, as that would spoil the surprise. So, I invite you to be patient and wait for the final outcome. I'm quite sure it won't let you down at all.

But for me Elrond is more a general and a leader of a big army of infantery and not a man who is "waisting his time" in little skirmishes. Arwen and maybe Glorfindel are the ones who ride across the map harassing the enemy and fighting back his cav whereas Elrond is more the commander of the whole army, like king e.g. Dain.

Cavalry holds a very respectable status in Imladris nonetheless; the faction allows you to recruit both typologies of knights from the very beginning, without any boundary or restraint (like the need to build a special outpost, for example). Wherefore, I would say that cavalry does constitute a relevant force to be reckoned with; an essential part of your army, which is equally led to battle by Elrond, thanks to his incredibly versatile concept and 'multitask role', if I may define it this way. Moreover, don't forget that we're considering heavy-armoured cavalry; the heaviest type of the entire game, probably. It's then understandable why those riders are not only apt for harassment or akin tactics.

It's a difficult question, but I would prefere something that has to do with his role as a scholar. Elrond one of the wisest elves ever, so I would like to see this part of his character represented in his abilities. But this is only an idea that came into my mind while reading youre post. Could you imagine something like this (scholar thing)?

I absolutely see the purpose of your suggestions, believe you me. His scholar-type characterisation is definitely fascinating and much fitting. In fact, that's his main activity in LOTR: a wise scholar, versed in even the smallest facets of the lore. A benevolent lord, interested in fostering peace and providing support to anyone in dire need of it. However, as explained in previous comments, the current scenario doesn't really give us so wide a variety of possibilities. Let us examine them together.

1. Foresight would be the best candidate for such a theme. It's also his peculiar skill. Divination is already represented through Círdan, though, who is notably the most far-sighted being in Middle-earth.
2. Rivendell is widely renowned for being a miraculous shelter of quietness and solace. A sanctuary that rejuvenates every weary and suffering that enters the valley. And we already have the perfect feature showing this at hand: the restoration ability. What in the Mod could suit this trait better than restoration?
3. Returning to the beginning of my erstwhile remark, there was a past ability that would grant allied heroes a tiny portion of experience. But the ability is now gone for good, due to the fact that it often ended up being boring and less serviceable as time would pass. Ergo: good riddance!
4. Another clever alternative could reside in building-oriented support. Elrond is the founder of his shrine and his utmost keeper. The imbuing magic which embalms all depends strictly on Vilya. The problem is that there's already something similar in the game, via Erestor and his influence on structures. In addition, Elrond is not supposed to affect buildings either; the strength of his concept lies in the hero's bonus towards units and heroes. On the battlefield. Whereas leaving him behind the safety of your fortress would be an outright waste of potential, given his impressive power set.

I couldn't think about further solutions for a decent replacement, honestly. And, contemplating the whole situation from this perspective, the mount does appear to be much more functional than another scholar-type ability would.

Seleukos I.

  • Edain Balancetester
  • Galadhrim
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 732
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #11 am: 17. Sep 2018, 15:57 »

Zitat
Cavalry holds a very respectable status in Imladris nonetheless;... an essential part of your army

I totaly agree. Imladirs is one of the three most cavalry focused factiones in the game (together with Rohan and Gondor).
Zitat
Moreover, don't forget that we're considering heavy-armoured cavalry; the heaviest type of the entire game, probably. It's then understandable why those riders are not only apt for harassment or akin tactics.

Here I can't agree completely. Imladris cav might be heavy armored, but it's not a "heavy cavalry". Imla cav is fast and good at trampling infantery. A heavy cavalry, like Gondor kights, is better armored and better in melee, but they slow down faster while trampling. (Gondor cav beates Imla cav 1v1)
 So I think Imladris cavalry is, because of theire speedboost, better at harassing and trampling units, as at fighting in melee, what is Elronds part. He has to make youre infantry hold long enought, so that youre cav can trample the enemy to death.

And yes I completely agree with you, that it is very hard to find a well fitting ability to replace the mount. If I can find one, I will post it here.

regardes
Seleukos I.

SP19XX

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Pförtner von Bree
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 81
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #12 am: 18. Sep 2018, 13:06 »
I personally am one of those who actually likes that Elrond has access to a mount, but also agree that he could have something special as well, as a symbol of his scholarly side, but what's to say both can't be done? The idea I had in the past was to merge his mount as an activatable aspect of his level 5 leadership, thus allowing it to be retained, while another ability could then also be added without taking away from anything.

One such idea I had in the past was the following;
Level 3: Wisdom of the Ages
Elrond passes on his wisdom to allied units in a medium range. For 30 seconds the selected units are immune to knockback and are more resistant to arrows.

While basic, this would also help the primary issues Imladris have in the mid game, without taking away from his role as a supporting leader, though if a better solution can be made, I'm all ears.

OakenShield224

  • Elbischer Pilger
  • **
  • Beiträge: 173
  • Welcome, my sister-sons, to the Kingdom of Erebor!
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #13 am: 18. Sep 2018, 13:21 »
If you're talking about something that would allow nearby troops to have arrow and knockback resistance, then one idea that I've had is to include it in his level 10. Have it damage and disrupt enemies in the current area, and then make allies in a much larger area be resistant to arrows. It would fit for someone with some control of nature and air to use that to disrupt arrows in flight, and would also fit with Elrond's role in Middle Earth as someone who protects and preserves.

The_Necromancer0

  • Edain Team
  • Beschützer des verbotenen Weihers
  • *****
  • Beiträge: 1.547
  • There is evil there that does not sleep
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #14 am: 18. Sep 2018, 14:08 »
It would make sense for units that are safe within his personal tornado to be unnafected by arrows unless they be fired by expert ranged heroes. I could totally see the tornado provide a buff against ranged attacks but not against hero ranged attacks.
Come chat Edain on Discord: https://discord.gg/CMhkeb8
Questions on the Mod? Visit the Official Wiki: http://edain.wikia.com/

SP19XX

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Pförtner von Bree
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 81
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #15 am: 18. Sep 2018, 15:06 »
That would be interesting, and indeed does make sense, but then that leaves us back to square one with the initial issue of replacing his mount, which as I said, I would personally love to see tied to his leadership as an active aspect, allowing him to retain it while making room for something new.

Seleukos I.

  • Edain Balancetester
  • Galadhrim
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 732
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #16 am: 18. Sep 2018, 17:52 »
I really like the idea of giving Elrond an ability to buff the armor against arrowes. But I think excluding ranged heroes isn't needed. This ability can replace the mount or, if you don't want to loose the mount, added in any other way.

regardes
Seleukos I.

Smeargollum

  • Edain Balancetester
  • Gesandter der Freien Völker
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 369
  • #teamfish
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #17 am: 19. Sep 2018, 18:04 »
Hello everybody,
in the last days I thougt about the question:
 "Witch ability could replace the mount of Elrond?"
And now an idea has come into my mind. Because of the fact that the new central spell of Imladris is a bit...peculiarly.
Zitat
During their long and eventful life, the scholars of Rivendell have gathered immense knowledge of the world, and both Elrond and Arwen are able to foresee what is to be. Feeding from this recurrent theme, omniscience appeared to be a sound concept for the central spell of the faction.

Omniscience: The scholars of Rivendell are granted omniscience by the Valar. Libraries reveal the entire map permanently.

Under a strategic perspective, the spell should not be underestimated. Disposing of perfect knowledge, a good player can react to every opponent's move. Imladris remains also loyal to its iconic principle of quality over quantity: while other factions generally purchase their central spells for four or five points, Imladris must buy its for seven.
And if we would make that the spell is only for a short time active we could give Elrond a ability that make the spell durable.
The lore background:
In the Hobbit triologie (movies) the dwarves bring there map to him that he can red it.
And so he could make the attenuated central spell stronger. I think this would make the balance more interesting because if you kill Elrond the Imladris-player can't see the wohle map.
In a short form: The new Imladris central spell gets an active spell so that you see the map for a short time. But when Elrond is on the field and on the level you see the whole map. The ability of mout gets replaced by a passiv ability that buffs the central spell.

I'm looking forward to your feedback! :)
Best regards
Smeargollum


"What if the real balance was the friends we made along the way?"

FG15

  • Administrator
  • Ringträger
  • *****
  • Beiträge: 5.274
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #18 am: 19. Sep 2018, 20:12 »
Elronds mount was added because the community wished for it.

SP19XX

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Pförtner von Bree
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 81
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #19 am: 19. Sep 2018, 22:10 »
Elronds mount was added because the community wished for it.
Indeed and it is nice to have, which is why in my proposal I mentioned adding it as an active aspect of his Leadership to retain it.

Walküre

  • Edain Unterstützer
  • Hoher König von Gondor
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 4.706
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #20 am: 19. Sep 2018, 22:57 »
The community asking for a mount was actually one of the first major threads that arose in the forum, at the dawn of the very English forum. A very in-depth discussion and among the most popular ones hitherto debated. That doesn't mean, of course, that new suggestions cannot be brought to the general attention, since any refreshing idea is more than welcome here, but people's will should be taken into consideration, too, and equally respected. On par with lengthy disquisitions about the lore or gameplay mechanics, a widely-recognised popular support was also a significant drive for the old proposal to be finally accepted, not before having gone through every single detail and hue, though. Prior to community support comes the due discussing of concepts.

Ergo: I suppose that retaining the mount and implementing additional effects could rightly be a just compromise that saves both the past and the present. In particular, expanding the role of the Ring of Air does sound as an interesting point to start from. Vilya was primarily meant for support and preservation; there might be the proper scope for endowing the Ring with something else than the hero's defence (which was a great improvement already, at the time).
« Letzte Änderung: 19. Sep 2018, 23:03 von Walküre »

Seleukos I.

  • Edain Balancetester
  • Galadhrim
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 732
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #21 am: 20. Sep 2018, 17:24 »
I for my part really like the idea of making Elrond work together with the new central spell as Smeargollum suggested. This would make the centralspell mutch more interesting and more dynamic.
Zitat
Elronds mount was added because the community wished for it.
I wasn't aware of this, but I can understand the decision of the team.

Zitat
Indeed and it is nice to have, which is why in my proposal I mentioned adding it as an active aspect of his Leadership to retain it.

If the mount will stay in the game, this would be the best solutionn, I think.

regardes
Seleukos I.

Smeargollum

  • Edain Balancetester
  • Gesandter der Freien Völker
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 369
  • #teamfish
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #22 am: 20. Sep 2018, 18:15 »
Thank you all for replaying!
I personly can't think about a lore- or a realy good gameplayreason to give Elrond that mount.
Lore:
In "The Hobbit" Elrond is just sitting in Rivendel and gives advises.
In "The Lord of the Rings" Elrond is also in Rivendel and heals Frodo made a nice party and there was this big council and he send the felowship of the ring with Frodo. Later he send the Twins to war but Elrond stayed in Rivendel.
In the "Simarilon" he was the lord of Imladris while Sauron prevailed about the rest of Middle-Earth. In this time it could be that he ride on his horse in a battle but we don't know.
Also we know that he was the herald of Gil-Galad but theirhe was proboably also as an
infantry soldier.
In the movies he ride one time in the Hobbit but that was just a short film-cutting.
So from lore I can't think of a reason.
Gameplay:
I think that Imladris had already Arwen and Glorefindel as cav-heros and also very powerful elit cav. So I don't think that also Elrond must be able to ride but if you want a third riding hero why not giving a mount ability to the Twins?
But neverless I would love to read the tread of giving Elrond the mount. Can mayby someone send me the link to that topik, please?

Zitat
Indeed and it is nice to have, which is why in my proposal I mentioned adding it as an active aspect of his Leadership to retain it.
But if you all want to have the mount ability I would also like that idea.
And please can you write what you think of the roots of my suggestion because I would like to know if you all think taht this would be bad or if you think that it would be nice but the mount if better.

Best regards
Smeargollum


"What if the real balance was the friends we made along the way?"

SP19XX

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Pförtner von Bree
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 81
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #23 am: 20. Sep 2018, 18:45 »
Thank you all for replaying!
I personly can't think about a lore- or a realy good gameplayreason to give Elrond that mount.
Lore:
In "The Hobbit" Elrond is just sitting in Rivendel and gives advises.
In "The Lord of the Rings" Elrond is also in Rivendel and heals Frodo made a nice party and there was this big council and he send the felowship of the ring with Frodo. Later he send the Twins to war but Elrond stayed in Rivendel.
In the "Simarilon" he was the lord of Imladris while Sauron prevailed about the rest of Middle-Earth. In this time it could be that he ride on his horse in a battle but we don't know.
Also we know that he was the herald of Gil-Galad but theirhe was proboably also as an
infantry soldier.
In the movies he ride one time in the Hobbit but that was just a short film-cutting.
So from lore I can't think of a reason.
Gameplay:
I think that Imladris had already Arwen and Glorefindel as cav-heros and also very powerful elit cav. So I don't think that also Elrond must be able to ride but if you want a third riding hero why not giving a mount ability to the Twins?
But neverless I would love to read the tread of giving Elrond the mount. Can mayby someone send me the link to that topik, please?

Zitat
Indeed and it is nice to have, which is why in my proposal I mentioned adding it as an active aspect of his Leadership to retain it.
But if you all want to have the mount ability I would also like that idea.
And please can you write what you think of the roots of my suggestion because I would like to know if you all think taht this would be bad or if you think that it would be nice but the mount if better.

Best regards
Smeargollum
The main part you also need to consider though is tyat in Imladris only Elrond and Cirdan provide leadership bonuses, with the primary part of it being with Elrond. In a faction designed to balance it's cavalry with infantry, having no hero capable of providing that actually hinders that side of it, from a gameplay perspective imo. When we consider all other factions with a cavalry base underlying it, all of them have this in a fashion;
Gondor: Faramir, Imrahil, Aragorn (to a degree).
Rohan: Eomer, Theoden, Hama (to a degree).
Iron Hills: Dain Ironfoot, Dain's Messenger (forgot his name).
Lothlorien: Thranduil

Or counter based leaderships;
Angmar: The Witch King
Mordor: All Nazgul
Isengard: Sharku (via Howl Boost).

Without it this leaves Imladris as the only faction without this option.

Seleukos I.

  • Edain Balancetester
  • Galadhrim
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 732
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #24 am: 20. Sep 2018, 19:49 »
Well, Arwen has her banner, whitch is kind of a healing-leadership and she can make enemies run away, whitch also can be used a in supportive way.
But basicly you are right and I for my part would be fine with Elrond keeping his mount (by adding it to his leadership, as you suggested) and getting the ability Smeargollum suggested.
I hope you can understand what I'm trying to tell you (bad english :D)

regardes
Seleukos I.

AulëTheSmith

  • Elronds Berater
  • **
  • Beiträge: 300
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #25 am: 20. Sep 2018, 21:02 »
Hello fellows;
Considering the discussion so far concerning Elrond, i do like to say that i like his current implemetation with the mount ability. At the same time  i have also the desire to explore in a deeper way the nature of Vilya, the Ring of Air. I don't know, however, how should it be possible to keep the mount and at the same time free a slot for a new power.
if i understood correctly Sp19xx you would retain the mount putting it in the same slot of leadership as active part of the ability? but, would it be too much to have an additional ability?
I indeed like the idea of protection against arrows which is an important issue when we speak about small hordes such as Noldor warriors. I proposed something similar for the first Cirdan's ability, in the concept i conceived with the help of Walkure, "Ulumuri" (i.e. the horns of Ulmo  ;)) as an alternative to immunity to fear.

https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,34267.msg457626.html#msg457626

As Walkure said, the best way lore-wise would be to connect Vilya with the buildings. It would be in favour of the new siege print of the next patch too. Sadly, it is not a unique idea and Elrond is not properly a building interferer hero, game-wise.

About Saruman i wrote something several months ago in Isengard Brief suggestions, in my opinion also he derseves some more chances to keep back stronger enemy heroes, given that he cannot quickly escape niether he has a great armor to suistain a single combat. It should be noted though that it will have a life point boost from the spellbook in the next patch.


Walküre

  • Edain Unterstützer
  • Hoher König von Gondor
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 4.706
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #26 am: 21. Sep 2018, 23:35 »
But neverless I would love to read the tread of giving Elrond the mount. Can mayby someone send me the link to that topik, please?

You can read everything here:
ELROND

As for the lore, I think that all the points you have listed actually reinforce the lore accuracy of Elrond riding a horse in the game; that is, his millennium-old experience in battle and his utmost authoritative status as leader. Also, his scholar-type character is already well represented in the game, where, by the way, he mainly fulfils the role of a unit supporter (with secondary mass-slayer aspects). Hence, an efficient war machine on the battlefield.

In light of his extraordinary life and of the Mod's own design, imagining that he cannot have a mount on his own seems quite unthinkable to me.



Besides, if all agree on commencing a discussion that is centred on Elrond only and aimed at developing some suitable alternative abilities for him, I suppose that opening a whole new thread in the Imladris board would be the most appropriate thing to do.

Smeargollum

  • Edain Balancetester
  • Gesandter der Freien Völker
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 369
  • #teamfish
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #27 am: 23. Sep 2018, 18:16 »
Hello everybody!
Thanks for the link Walküre! :)
Ok, when you all want the mount and I am the only guy who don't want to have it, it seems like I have to be happy with the mount.
One last thing:
Zitat von: SP19XX
The idea I had in the past was to merge his mount as an activatable aspect of his level 5 leadership, thus allowing it to be retained, while another ability could then also be added without taking away from anything.
What do you think of that idea? If you think this is a nice idea which ability would you put in the new free place? Would you like the ability I posted for that free place?
Let me now what you think of SP19XX idea.

Greetings
Smeargollum


"What if the real balance was the friends we made along the way?"

OakenShield224

  • Elbischer Pilger
  • **
  • Beiträge: 173
  • Welcome, my sister-sons, to the Kingdom of Erebor!
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #28 am: 23. Sep 2018, 18:35 »
If I remember correctly, Elrond in 3.8.1 had an ability where a target hero would gain experience. That could be added back in.

An alternative could involve giving a target hero double experience gain for a set amount of time. If the hero is already level 10, then it could be something else that would show that he is teaching the hero (e.g. letting them ignore heavy armour, letting them knock down enemy troops, letting them do AOE, increasing their attack speed etc.). The bonus would be temporary of course.

SP19XX

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Pförtner von Bree
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 81
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #29 am: 23. Sep 2018, 19:40 »
If I remember correctly, Elrond in 3.8.1 had an ability where a target hero would gain experience. That could be added back in.

An alternative could involve giving a target hero double experience gain for a set amount of time. If the hero is already level 10, then it could be something else that would show that he is teaching the hero (e.g. letting them ignore heavy armour, letting them knock down enemy troops, letting them do AOE, increasing their attack speed etc.). The bonus would be temporary of course.
To be honest I'm rather glad that skill is gone, as it was quite basic, and just meant another of their heroes skipped some effort, and snowballed more effectively.

Though as a Unit / Hero Support, a skill in it's general direction could work, so with the general theme of that, a suggestion I have is this;

Council of Elrond
Elrond grants his council to the selected hero. For 30 seconds the target will gain double experience and is immune to knockback. If the target is level 10, their attacks will also knock down enemies upon impact.

Walküre

  • Edain Unterstützer
  • Hoher König von Gondor
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 4.706
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #30 am: 24. Sep 2018, 00:38 »
To be honest I'm rather glad that skill is gone, as it was quite basic, and just meant another of their heroes skipped some effort, and snowballed more effectively.

Exactly. 'Generic' is the most appropriate adjective, until your heroes would fully level up and then such option be rendered ultimately quasi-useless.

Besides, I believe that Elrond's design is already more or less solid and complete. It's therefore the main reason why any possible other change does not really excite me that much; the said scholar-like (hero-supporter-type) trait is, in my opinion, explored through restoration. I mean, I don't feel that he's in dire need of a new ability, given his consistent characterisation. Very consistent. Nevertheless, coming up with something more creative than the usual mount and retaining the very mount at the same time would be equally nice to see.

I thus suggest someone among the participants in the debate open a new thread in the Imladris board, explaining clearly how the ability should work and all the related arguments backing the point. This topic is getting bigger and denser day after day; it was also started with another more global (general) goal in mind. I fear that a too vast discussion might thereby create a bit of confusion.

OakenShield224

  • Elbischer Pilger
  • **
  • Beiträge: 173
  • Welcome, my sister-sons, to the Kingdom of Erebor!
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #31 am: 25. Sep 2018, 18:01 »
I agree with what you're saying about Elrond being a "complete" hero. With the experience and hero support ideas, I'm just throwing ideas out that others might be interested in. If I had to change one thing about Elrond, it would be to slightly improve his level 10 ability, either by making it affect a larger area, having it do more damage, or having an extra bonus of improving allied armour against arrows.

Smeargollum

  • Edain Balancetester
  • Gesandter der Freien Völker
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 369
  • #teamfish
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #32 am: 27. Sep 2018, 17:57 »
So hello again!
First to Erlond: I am also very glad that his ability of giving heroes experience is gone.


Greetings
Smeargollum


"What if the real balance was the friends we made along the way?"

Walküre

  • Edain Unterstützer
  • Hoher König von Gondor
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 4.706
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #33 am: 28. Sep 2018, 13:57 »
You're absolutely free to open a new thread, whether other people agree with you or not :)

Since the general discussion was more and more leaning towards the Lord of Imladris, I thought it would be better to move the topic in the proper board, either through opening an own thread or posting the proposed concept in the Brief Suggestions thread regarding Rivendell. Just this. The final decision depends on you, based on what you feel like presenting to the public forum. If it's a quite long, complete concept, then you might need a new topic; otherwise, a brief suggestion will do fine.