[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] General Suggestions
Strengthening of faction leaders
Bogdan Hmel:
Hello to all lovers of Edain Mod.
I apologize in advance for my English.
I think that leaders (or the strongest heroes of factions) need some strengthening. Many of them cost 3,000, but are rather fragile and in addition are highly specialized. I propose to strengthen these heroes, but also make them more expensive with the help of improvements, spellbook points or special buildings necessary for hiring a hero.
Lorien - Galadriel: Firstly, I propose to transfer her ability to "Gifts of Lorien" to another place - very strange when the third ability of the most powerful hero of the faction is used only a few times per game. Secondly, it is necessary to remove the negative effect in the fourth ability.
"Gifts of Lorien" I propose to replace with a temporary form "Ancient Might" from the concept proposed by Valkyrie. Also, I propose to add Galadriel a passive bonus to the nearest troops / heroes, since she - the heart of the faction.
To balance these improvements, I propose to add in the citadel of Lorien the construction - a mirror of Galadriel, without which it is impossible to hire a Lady of Light. In this way Galadrieli's cost will increase, but AI can still build it. Also this building will open the capacity of "Gifts of Lorien". The alternative to the mirror is Lorien's royal Talan.
Gondor - Gandalf. I propose to strengthen his automatic shield (reduce the cooldown or increase the duration of action), and add leadership for allied heroes. The gray wanderer always supported those who fight against darkness. Since Gondor already has enough heroes with leadership for the troops, Gandalf can gain leadership for the heroes. He can also influence the troops, giving them immunity to fear. I believe that it is not worthwhile to increase the value of Gandalf, because it is necessary to spend on him precious spellbook points.
Isengard - Saruman. I think that the White wizard also needs leadership for the heroes. In addition, I suggest that he add a passive effect - a chance to knock back the enemy hero during an attack - just as he does with conventional troops. Saruman is weak in open confrontation and does not have a shield, so this ability will be very useful to him.
Mordor - Witch King. The main Nazgul with the improvement of armor and so is hired for 4000 resources, this is the ideal way to increase its value. I have only one idea with his reinforcing. Boromir told that the enemies were beastly near the Witch-King. But he already has a strong passive ability, so it does not need to be made OP.
In Angmar, the Witch-King can be enhanced by using a central ability in the spellbook.
Rohan - Theoden. He does not cost 3000, unlike the other leaders, but with the help of the central ability of the book of incantations, King Rohan can get more powerful leadership (as the Edain team wants to do).
Gnomes - I think that the heroes of gnomes are already strong enough.
Imladris - Elrond and Glorfindel. In the proposals in the section "Imladris" there is a topic dedicated to Glorfindel. I agree that this hero is not strong enough. During the War of the Ring, he was one of the strongest warriors, and perhaps the strongest.
I propose to raise the price of Glorfindel to 3000 and significantly strengthen it (I will try to write about the changes in abilities in the existing topic). Also, I suggest removing the mount / dismount ability from Elrond (it seems completely unnecessary) and adding for him the ability to support troops / heroes. The cost of Elrond, I propose to raise to 3000. Thus, the player will find it hard to find 6000 resources on both heroes and will have to choose who to hire - a powerful mass slayer and a supporter or a strong tank warrior.
Seleukos I.:
Hello Bogdan Hmel,
first of all I have to say you suggestiones sound quite interesting^^
--- Zitat ---I apologize in advance for my English.
--- Ende Zitat ---
So do I^^
Lorien:
--- Zitat --- I propose to transfer her ability to "Gifts of Lorien" to another place - very strange when the third ability of the most powerful hero of the faction is used only a few times per game.
--- Ende Zitat ---
And how often do you use Aragorn´s second ability, for example?
Many heroes have abilities, whitch you don´t use that often, but that dosn´t mean they are bad. I´m personally fine with "gifts of Lorien".
--- Zitat ---Secondly, it is necessary to remove the negative effect in the fourth ability.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Actually I don´t think so. Without the negative effect this ability would be to strong. Just imagine you could buff Celeborn with 60% armor and damage, without any risk!
--- Zitat --- Also, I propose to add Galadriel a passive bonus to the nearest troops / heroes, since she - the heart of the faction.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Since Lorien already has very strong leadership (Haldir 30% damage and Tranduil 25% armor and damage), I don´t think this would be necessary.
Gondor:
I can´t say so much about Gandalf, because I don´t use him so much (never), but this
--- Zitat ---Gandalf can gain leadership for the heroes. He can also influence the troops, giving them immunity to fear.
--- Ende Zitat ---
would make him to strong, I think. Gondor already has immunity to fear thanks to Aragorn´s leadership and, if I´m not mistaken, Faramir´s. Even without a leadership for heroes Aragorn is hard to be killed, so making Gandalf buffing heroes would make "herospamm" even stronger as it is now.
Isengard:
--- Zitat --- I think that the White wizard also needs leadership for the heroes.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Same as for Gondor: Herospamm would get even stronger.
--- Zitat --- In addition, I suggest that he add a passive effect - a chance to knock back the enemy hero during an attack - just as he does with conventional troops.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Saruman isn´t supposed to fight heroes. With Lurtz you can crippel heroes and kill them with youre berserkers and Lurtz. On top of that Saruman already can use "fireball" to knock back heroes. So I would say he is strong enought.
To the witchkings I can´t say anything, beause again I never use them.^^
Dwarves:
--- Zitat ---I think that the heroes of gnomes are already strong enough.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Here we agree.^^
Rohan:
--- Zitat --- He does not cost 3000, unlike the other leaders, but with the help of the central ability of the book of incantations, King Rohan can get more powerful leadership
--- Ende Zitat ---
Yes, Theoden becomes a powerfull supporter as he should be.
Imladris:
Elrond:
--- Zitat --- Also, I suggest removing the mount / dismount ability from Elrond (it seems completely unnecessary)
--- Ende Zitat ---
You are rigth, this ability is really useless.^^
--- Zitat ---adding for him the ability to support troops / heroes.
--- Ende Zitat ---
I actually think he already gives 25% armor to nearby troops. And he should have this spell rechargetime ability to support heroes.I think that is enought.
Glorfindel:
--- Zitat --- I agree that this hero is not strong enough. During the War of the Ring, he was one of the strongest warriors, and perhaps the strongest.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Well, if you can level him up he is quiet a strong warrior. Of course he can´t slay an entire army anymore (like in the vanila bfme2), but he is strong enought, for me.
So that is what I think about youre suggestiones.
regardes
Seleukos I.
Smeargollum:
Hello everybody,
I just want to add one littel point.
Concerning the power "Mirrow of Galadriel"
--- Zitat ---Secondly, it is necessary to remove the negative effect in the fourth ability.
--- Ende Zitat ---
I also think that this would be wrong. Not only because of the balance but also because of the books. Sam gets discouraged when he look in the mirrow.
--- Zitat ---Then suddenly Sam gave a cry and sprang away." I can't stay here,"he said wildly. "I must go home. They've dug up Bagshot Row, and there's the poor old Gaffer going down the hill with his bits of things on a barrow. I must go home.
--- Ende Zitat ---
The fellowship of the ring, the mirrow of Galadriel
So it is imo good and lorefrendly that is gives also debuffs.
Greeting
Smeargollum
Walküre:
I salute you all, gentle users of Modding Union. I come quite late to the discussion, and I apologise for that; whenever major heroes (faction leaders, for the most part) find themselves at the centre of the topic, I'm always delighted to hear about people's opinions :)
I would just like to make a couple of needed clarifications that might interest you.
1. First of all, as far as I have had knowledge until now, it's not possible to have heroes exceed the cost of 3000 resources, not even if we're talking about leaders of some given factions. You may have noticed in the game that said amount of resources (3000) is exactly the limit beyond which nobody could go. Because the Edain 4.0 balance is substantially based on that of BFME1, where no hero would in fact cost you more than the aforementioned sum.
2. As anticipated in the relative article, Angmar's Witch-king is likely to undergo a general overhaul in future patches, with this involving also the own central spell of the faction. So, I encourage you to wait, for none of your hopes will be disappointed.
3. My personal view on Elrond and some insights into what had been, at the time, the whole debate which led to the current design.
--- Zitat von: Seleukos I. am 26. Aug 2018, 16:23 ---Elrond:
--- Zitat --- Also, I suggest removing the mount / dismount ability from Elrond (it seems completely unnecessary)
--- Ende Zitat ---
You are right, this ability is really useless.^^
--- Ende Zitat ---
I completely disagree with you, here. A couple of years ago, the English community had been long discussing Elrond in the forum (you may easily find the thread in the Imladris board) and that had ultimately started a very broad topic on the matter; one of the most popular and viewed out of all the others in English boards. Users, including me and other past members of the community, provided tonnes of different arguments to back specific suggestions and, not seldom, discussion would go far across in-game boundaries and reach the pure lore.
Our common point was nonetheless the same: we were not completely satisfied with how Vilya used to be portrayed in previous versions and with the fact that the hero's design was still lacking deeper characterisation. Namely, his concept from Edain 3.8.1 was perceived too much generic and quite bland for the revolutionary 4.0 era.
Elrond is maybe one the most versatile and dynamic heroes of the Mod. Agile and able to serve a wide variety of purposes, boasting hero-supporter and mass-slayer aspects. But his main role is that of a unit supporter, without a doubt. The lore shows this defined character of his quite clearly, since he was the commander of Gil-galad's armies and his herald on the field as well. Following the death of the High King, he remained in charge of the few Noldorin elite troops who still lingered in the world. Add to this his immense experience in battle, thanks to many centuries spent at the head of Elven hosts during wartime years, and the incredible fact that he was even there, when the Host of Valinórë landed in Beleriand to end Morgoth's uncontested dominion of Middle-earth (First Age of Arda).
This peculiar trait I speak of is embodied by his leadership bonus on troops and by the very mount ability. I know that some find it boring or useless, but it's rather the opposite. Rivendell, behind the sole Rohan, is the most cavalry-based faction in the game (equalled only by Gondor, probably), relying on powerful heavy-armoured riders. Hence, there would be no point in depriving Elrond of the great possibility of riding alongside his noble knights. Having a mount also permits him to head to anywhere he's needed, carrying with him his support-oriented skills and his fearful magic. This also mirrors the vision of the Hobbit films, too, in which he does lead his riders whilst patrolling the borders.
Other alternatives I cannot think about. In Edain 3.8.1, he used to sport an ability which gifted allied heroes with a bit of experience. And features of this kind become unserviceable once they fulfil their purpose. Furthermore, it's also a quite naïve of an effect, I reckon.
His current design is therefore a marvellous example of how the community's will has been taken into consideration by the team, flourishing in an overall positive result, while going back to the past would be a blatant step backward.
4. As FG wrote on ModDB, Galadriel has undergone a total overhaul. All of her three forms. This is meant to renew her own prominence in the faction, focusing on her as it's due and endowing her with unique powers that suit the general logic at heart of the 4.5 patch.
Similarly to that past ability of Elrond, she was bound to sacrifice two precious slots of her power set to perform global-ranged magic. Yet, things will change soon! Every single ability of hers has been either replaced or improved for the better. Wait and you shall see ;)
--- Zitat von: Smeargollum am 26. Aug 2018, 20:35 ---
--- Zitat ---Then suddenly Sam gave a cry and sprang away." I can't stay here,"he said wildly. "I must go home. They've dug up Bagshot Row, and there's the poor old Gaffer going down the hill with his bits of things on a barrow. I must go home.
--- Ende Zitat ---
The fellowship of the ring, the mirrow of Galadriel
So it is imo good and lorefrendly that is gives also debuffs.
--- Ende Zitat ---
True, it's definitely lore-accurate, but also very much contradictory (game-wise). Galadriel is supposed to represent the most renowned paladin of the good side; a champion of the Free People and a guardian of peace (no surprise that the White Council was born at her specific request). We're also speaking about a level-7 ability (the one preceding her ultimate power). So, not only does that aleatory element render the ability a bit complex to figure out, but the additional negative effect of the case also kills what of good was left to use. Extremely underwhelming, I say.
As remarked above, this ability has finally been revised and given another rationale in the game, feeding from an interesting passage of the canons.
Only True Witchking:
Hello everyone.
Maybe I will give my thoughts on the Topic later, but Right now I only want to add three Points:
1. I agree that Glorfindel should be changed, and I'm currently working out a concept for him (in German).
2. I am against the idea of having Mordor-Witchking always with armour, because I really like his other form, and it looks much cooler to have all nine without upgrades. Also, the later upgrade fits the lore much better.
3. @Walküre: As far as I am aware, BFME1 Witch-King cost 8000, and Gandalf 6000.
And the Nazgul I think are 5000. So I think your point about the 3000 cost is incorrect, but I'm going to look it up a bit later, in case I'm wrong.
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