28. Mär 2024, 15:31 Hallo Gast.
Willkommen Gast. Bitte einloggen oder registrieren. Haben Sie Ihre Aktivierungs E-Mail übersehen?

Einloggen mit Benutzername, Passwort und Sitzungslänge. Hierbei werden gemäß Datenschutzerklärung Benutzername und Passwort verschlüsselt für die gewählte Dauer in einem Cookie abgelegt.


Select Boards:
 
Language:
 


Autor Thema: Strengthening of faction leaders  (Gelesen 6908 mal)

SP19XX

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Pförtner von Bree
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 81
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #15 am: 18. Sep 2018, 15:06 »
That would be interesting, and indeed does make sense, but then that leaves us back to square one with the initial issue of replacing his mount, which as I said, I would personally love to see tied to his leadership as an active aspect, allowing him to retain it while making room for something new.

Seleukos I.

  • Edain Balancetester
  • Galadhrim
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 732
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #16 am: 18. Sep 2018, 17:52 »
I really like the idea of giving Elrond an ability to buff the armor against arrowes. But I think excluding ranged heroes isn't needed. This ability can replace the mount or, if you don't want to loose the mount, added in any other way.

regardes
Seleukos I.

Smeargollum

  • Edain Balancetester
  • Gesandter der Freien Völker
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 369
  • #teamfish
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #17 am: 19. Sep 2018, 18:04 »
Hello everybody,
in the last days I thougt about the question:
 "Witch ability could replace the mount of Elrond?"
And now an idea has come into my mind. Because of the fact that the new central spell of Imladris is a bit...peculiarly.
Zitat
During their long and eventful life, the scholars of Rivendell have gathered immense knowledge of the world, and both Elrond and Arwen are able to foresee what is to be. Feeding from this recurrent theme, omniscience appeared to be a sound concept for the central spell of the faction.

Omniscience: The scholars of Rivendell are granted omniscience by the Valar. Libraries reveal the entire map permanently.

Under a strategic perspective, the spell should not be underestimated. Disposing of perfect knowledge, a good player can react to every opponent's move. Imladris remains also loyal to its iconic principle of quality over quantity: while other factions generally purchase their central spells for four or five points, Imladris must buy its for seven.
And if we would make that the spell is only for a short time active we could give Elrond a ability that make the spell durable.
The lore background:
In the Hobbit triologie (movies) the dwarves bring there map to him that he can red it.
And so he could make the attenuated central spell stronger. I think this would make the balance more interesting because if you kill Elrond the Imladris-player can't see the wohle map.
In a short form: The new Imladris central spell gets an active spell so that you see the map for a short time. But when Elrond is on the field and on the level you see the whole map. The ability of mout gets replaced by a passiv ability that buffs the central spell.

I'm looking forward to your feedback! :)
Best regards
Smeargollum


"What if the real balance was the friends we made along the way?"

FG15

  • Administrator
  • Ringträger
  • *****
  • Beiträge: 5.268
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #18 am: 19. Sep 2018, 20:12 »
Elronds mount was added because the community wished for it.

SP19XX

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Pförtner von Bree
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 81
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #19 am: 19. Sep 2018, 22:10 »
Elronds mount was added because the community wished for it.
Indeed and it is nice to have, which is why in my proposal I mentioned adding it as an active aspect of his Leadership to retain it.

Walküre

  • Edain Unterstützer
  • Hoher König von Gondor
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 4.706
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #20 am: 19. Sep 2018, 22:57 »
The community asking for a mount was actually one of the first major threads that arose in the forum, at the dawn of the very English forum. A very in-depth discussion and among the most popular ones hitherto debated. That doesn't mean, of course, that new suggestions cannot be brought to the general attention, since any refreshing idea is more than welcome here, but people's will should be taken into consideration, too, and equally respected. On par with lengthy disquisitions about the lore or gameplay mechanics, a widely-recognised popular support was also a significant drive for the old proposal to be finally accepted, not before having gone through every single detail and hue, though. Prior to community support comes the due discussing of concepts.

Ergo: I suppose that retaining the mount and implementing additional effects could rightly be a just compromise that saves both the past and the present. In particular, expanding the role of the Ring of Air does sound as an interesting point to start from. Vilya was primarily meant for support and preservation; there might be the proper scope for endowing the Ring with something else than the hero's defence (which was a great improvement already, at the time).
« Letzte Änderung: 19. Sep 2018, 23:03 von Walküre »

Seleukos I.

  • Edain Balancetester
  • Galadhrim
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 732
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #21 am: 20. Sep 2018, 17:24 »
I for my part really like the idea of making Elrond work together with the new central spell as Smeargollum suggested. This would make the centralspell mutch more interesting and more dynamic.
Zitat
Elronds mount was added because the community wished for it.
I wasn't aware of this, but I can understand the decision of the team.

Zitat
Indeed and it is nice to have, which is why in my proposal I mentioned adding it as an active aspect of his Leadership to retain it.

If the mount will stay in the game, this would be the best solutionn, I think.

regardes
Seleukos I.

Smeargollum

  • Edain Balancetester
  • Gesandter der Freien Völker
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 369
  • #teamfish
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #22 am: 20. Sep 2018, 18:15 »
Thank you all for replaying!
I personly can't think about a lore- or a realy good gameplayreason to give Elrond that mount.
Lore:
In "The Hobbit" Elrond is just sitting in Rivendel and gives advises.
In "The Lord of the Rings" Elrond is also in Rivendel and heals Frodo made a nice party and there was this big council and he send the felowship of the ring with Frodo. Later he send the Twins to war but Elrond stayed in Rivendel.
In the "Simarilon" he was the lord of Imladris while Sauron prevailed about the rest of Middle-Earth. In this time it could be that he ride on his horse in a battle but we don't know.
Also we know that he was the herald of Gil-Galad but theirhe was proboably also as an
infantry soldier.
In the movies he ride one time in the Hobbit but that was just a short film-cutting.
So from lore I can't think of a reason.
Gameplay:
I think that Imladris had already Arwen and Glorefindel as cav-heros and also very powerful elit cav. So I don't think that also Elrond must be able to ride but if you want a third riding hero why not giving a mount ability to the Twins?
But neverless I would love to read the tread of giving Elrond the mount. Can mayby someone send me the link to that topik, please?

Zitat
Indeed and it is nice to have, which is why in my proposal I mentioned adding it as an active aspect of his Leadership to retain it.
But if you all want to have the mount ability I would also like that idea.
And please can you write what you think of the roots of my suggestion because I would like to know if you all think taht this would be bad or if you think that it would be nice but the mount if better.

Best regards
Smeargollum


"What if the real balance was the friends we made along the way?"

SP19XX

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Pförtner von Bree
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 81
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #23 am: 20. Sep 2018, 18:45 »
Thank you all for replaying!
I personly can't think about a lore- or a realy good gameplayreason to give Elrond that mount.
Lore:
In "The Hobbit" Elrond is just sitting in Rivendel and gives advises.
In "The Lord of the Rings" Elrond is also in Rivendel and heals Frodo made a nice party and there was this big council and he send the felowship of the ring with Frodo. Later he send the Twins to war but Elrond stayed in Rivendel.
In the "Simarilon" he was the lord of Imladris while Sauron prevailed about the rest of Middle-Earth. In this time it could be that he ride on his horse in a battle but we don't know.
Also we know that he was the herald of Gil-Galad but theirhe was proboably also as an
infantry soldier.
In the movies he ride one time in the Hobbit but that was just a short film-cutting.
So from lore I can't think of a reason.
Gameplay:
I think that Imladris had already Arwen and Glorefindel as cav-heros and also very powerful elit cav. So I don't think that also Elrond must be able to ride but if you want a third riding hero why not giving a mount ability to the Twins?
But neverless I would love to read the tread of giving Elrond the mount. Can mayby someone send me the link to that topik, please?

Zitat
Indeed and it is nice to have, which is why in my proposal I mentioned adding it as an active aspect of his Leadership to retain it.
But if you all want to have the mount ability I would also like that idea.
And please can you write what you think of the roots of my suggestion because I would like to know if you all think taht this would be bad or if you think that it would be nice but the mount if better.

Best regards
Smeargollum
The main part you also need to consider though is tyat in Imladris only Elrond and Cirdan provide leadership bonuses, with the primary part of it being with Elrond. In a faction designed to balance it's cavalry with infantry, having no hero capable of providing that actually hinders that side of it, from a gameplay perspective imo. When we consider all other factions with a cavalry base underlying it, all of them have this in a fashion;
Gondor: Faramir, Imrahil, Aragorn (to a degree).
Rohan: Eomer, Theoden, Hama (to a degree).
Iron Hills: Dain Ironfoot, Dain's Messenger (forgot his name).
Lothlorien: Thranduil

Or counter based leaderships;
Angmar: The Witch King
Mordor: All Nazgul
Isengard: Sharku (via Howl Boost).

Without it this leaves Imladris as the only faction without this option.

Seleukos I.

  • Edain Balancetester
  • Galadhrim
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 732
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #24 am: 20. Sep 2018, 19:49 »
Well, Arwen has her banner, whitch is kind of a healing-leadership and she can make enemies run away, whitch also can be used a in supportive way.
But basicly you are right and I for my part would be fine with Elrond keeping his mount (by adding it to his leadership, as you suggested) and getting the ability Smeargollum suggested.
I hope you can understand what I'm trying to tell you (bad english :D)

regardes
Seleukos I.

AulëTheSmith

  • Elronds Berater
  • **
  • Beiträge: 300
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #25 am: 20. Sep 2018, 21:02 »
Hello fellows;
Considering the discussion so far concerning Elrond, i do like to say that i like his current implemetation with the mount ability. At the same time  i have also the desire to explore in a deeper way the nature of Vilya, the Ring of Air. I don't know, however, how should it be possible to keep the mount and at the same time free a slot for a new power.
if i understood correctly Sp19xx you would retain the mount putting it in the same slot of leadership as active part of the ability? but, would it be too much to have an additional ability?
I indeed like the idea of protection against arrows which is an important issue when we speak about small hordes such as Noldor warriors. I proposed something similar for the first Cirdan's ability, in the concept i conceived with the help of Walkure, "Ulumuri" (i.e. the horns of Ulmo  ;)) as an alternative to immunity to fear.

https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,34267.msg457626.html#msg457626

As Walkure said, the best way lore-wise would be to connect Vilya with the buildings. It would be in favour of the new siege print of the next patch too. Sadly, it is not a unique idea and Elrond is not properly a building interferer hero, game-wise.

About Saruman i wrote something several months ago in Isengard Brief suggestions, in my opinion also he derseves some more chances to keep back stronger enemy heroes, given that he cannot quickly escape niether he has a great armor to suistain a single combat. It should be noted though that it will have a life point boost from the spellbook in the next patch.


Walküre

  • Edain Unterstützer
  • Hoher König von Gondor
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 4.706
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #26 am: 21. Sep 2018, 23:35 »
But neverless I would love to read the tread of giving Elrond the mount. Can mayby someone send me the link to that topik, please?

You can read everything here:
ELROND

As for the lore, I think that all the points you have listed actually reinforce the lore accuracy of Elrond riding a horse in the game; that is, his millennium-old experience in battle and his utmost authoritative status as leader. Also, his scholar-type character is already well represented in the game, where, by the way, he mainly fulfils the role of a unit supporter (with secondary mass-slayer aspects). Hence, an efficient war machine on the battlefield.

In light of his extraordinary life and of the Mod's own design, imagining that he cannot have a mount on his own seems quite unthinkable to me.



Besides, if all agree on commencing a discussion that is centred on Elrond only and aimed at developing some suitable alternative abilities for him, I suppose that opening a whole new thread in the Imladris board would be the most appropriate thing to do.

Smeargollum

  • Edain Balancetester
  • Gesandter der Freien Völker
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 369
  • #teamfish
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #27 am: 23. Sep 2018, 18:16 »
Hello everybody!
Thanks for the link Walküre! :)
Ok, when you all want the mount and I am the only guy who don't want to have it, it seems like I have to be happy with the mount.
One last thing:
Zitat von: SP19XX
The idea I had in the past was to merge his mount as an activatable aspect of his level 5 leadership, thus allowing it to be retained, while another ability could then also be added without taking away from anything.
What do you think of that idea? If you think this is a nice idea which ability would you put in the new free place? Would you like the ability I posted for that free place?
Let me now what you think of SP19XX idea.

Greetings
Smeargollum


"What if the real balance was the friends we made along the way?"

OakenShield224

  • Elbischer Pilger
  • **
  • Beiträge: 173
  • Welcome, my sister-sons, to the Kingdom of Erebor!
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #28 am: 23. Sep 2018, 18:35 »
If I remember correctly, Elrond in 3.8.1 had an ability where a target hero would gain experience. That could be added back in.

An alternative could involve giving a target hero double experience gain for a set amount of time. If the hero is already level 10, then it could be something else that would show that he is teaching the hero (e.g. letting them ignore heavy armour, letting them knock down enemy troops, letting them do AOE, increasing their attack speed etc.). The bonus would be temporary of course.

SP19XX

  • Edain Betatesting
  • Pförtner von Bree
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 81
Re: Strengthening of faction leaders
« Antwort #29 am: 23. Sep 2018, 19:40 »
If I remember correctly, Elrond in 3.8.1 had an ability where a target hero would gain experience. That could be added back in.

An alternative could involve giving a target hero double experience gain for a set amount of time. If the hero is already level 10, then it could be something else that would show that he is teaching the hero (e.g. letting them ignore heavy armour, letting them knock down enemy troops, letting them do AOE, increasing their attack speed etc.). The bonus would be temporary of course.
To be honest I'm rather glad that skill is gone, as it was quite basic, and just meant another of their heroes skipped some effort, and snowballed more effectively.

Though as a Unit / Hero Support, a skill in it's general direction could work, so with the general theme of that, a suggestion I have is this;

Council of Elrond
Elrond grants his council to the selected hero. For 30 seconds the target will gain double experience and is immune to knockback. If the target is level 10, their attacks will also knock down enemies upon impact.