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Autor Thema: Imrahil - Prince of Dol Amroth  (Gelesen 7792 mal)

OakenShield224

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Imrahil - Prince of Dol Amroth
« am: 6. Okt 2018, 13:47 »
Hello everyone. Today I’d like to talk about one of the least used heroes in the mod: Imrahil. At the moment, he’s only ever useful when using beacons but, as beacons are so underused currently, Imrahil is hardly ever seen. I know that Fiefdoms will be seeing some changes in 4.5 which will hopefully make them more useful. However, while Imrahil’s abilities are interesting, they in general just aren’t as effective as they should be. To add to that his Atheling Guard are quite possibly the weakest heroic units in the game.
Overall, the Imrahil in the mod doesn’t fit the figure described to us in the books of a heroic, inspiring leader who led Minas Tirith’s forces during the siege and was praised by so many. This is why I have come up with a proposal on how Imrahil could be:

Level 1: Mount/Dismount – switch between mounted and on foot

Level 1: Prince of Dol Amroth - changes to a support palantir where Imrahil can adjust the strategy to adapt any situation and ensure his troops at prepared for battle:
 - Standard tactics - Soldiers of the fiefdoms near Imrahil will be granted +15% attack power as well as armor by this leadership.
 - Aggressive tactics - This leadership grants +30% attack power to soldiers of the fiefdoms near Imrahil.
 - Defensive tactics - this leadership grants +30% defence to soldiers of the fiefdoms near Imrahil.
 - To Gondor's Aid (needs level 3)- Imrahil brings support to Minas Tirith in its time of need. Select a target Border Stronghold to give it a permanent bonus. Repeatedly selecting a Stronghold will improve it further:
   First Upgrade – Dol Amroth troops are recruited 20% faster
   Second Upgrade – Dol Amroth troops can be recruited for 75% of their original price
   Third Upgrade – Dol Amroth troops are recruited with heavy armour


Originally I was going to have the ability improve the beacons, but I was told that it would be redundant with the 4.5 changes to the beacons. Therefore, it now affects the Dol Amroth troops. This fits with the idea of Imrahil as the person who brought aid to Minas Tirith before the siege and probably prepared his troops well before doing so. By having it be multiple upgrades, it would prevent the ability from becoming too overpowered at once, requiring extra time before you can use it to it's full potential.

Level 5: For Honour - Imrahil and his troops dash through enemy lines, treading their foes under the hooves of their mighty horses. Imrahil and nearby cavalry will have -25% crush reduction for 30 seconds

While the idea of this ability is good in 4.4.1, in practice it isn't very effective. My change is to have it also affect nearby cavalry which shouldn't be too OP as it isn't a massive buff like Theoden's Glorious Charge. It is a reference to the charge of Dol Amroth when rescuing Faramir and his men before the Siege of Gondor.

Level 8: Atheling Guard – Imrahil summons his atheling guard from Dol Amroth to his side. The Atheling Guard allow Imrahil to recharge his abilities 33% faster and grant him +15% armour as long as they remain close together. If the Guard is summoned while Imrahil is mounted, the Guard will be mounted. If the Guard is summoned while Imrahil is on foot, the Guard will be on foot. Only 1 battalion can be summoned at the same time. They are summoned at level 1 and can gain experience.

As said before, the Atheling Guard are the worst heroic unit in game. Their smaller batallion size makes them more vulnerable, and Imrahil's abilities aren't useful enough to justify their passive or their status as a level 10 power for an outpost hero. I've buffed them by having them improve Imrahil's armour and also by making them a level 8 power.


Level 10: Discipline - in Gondor's darkest hour, Imrahil temporarily takes command of its armies. For 30 seconds, his leadership will affect all allied troops as well as fiefdoms troops. Dol Amroth troops will heal themselves after every attack. All nearby non-Dol Amroth troops gain +50% experience.

The current Discipline is a good idea in theory, but not effective in execution. With the changes I've made to it, the ability will show off the strong and inspiring leader that Imrahil was during the Siege, granting a temporary buff to all nearby troops.

I hope that you will like these changes and that they would turn a rarely seen hero into one that is worth it! Any feedback is welcome. Thanks to Necro, Julio229, and Samsara for helping with a couple of abilities and stopping the proposal from being redundant with the 4.5 fiefdoms changes.

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Tiberius Ogden


Edit: moved the leadership palantir back to how it orignally was after Gnomi's feedback. Added To Gondor's Aid to this palantir, since the ability doesn't need to be used in combat situations. Thanks to Necro for this idea.
Edit 2: changed the buffs for To Gondor's Aid to make it a bit more balanced and changed the formatting a little bit.
« Letzte Änderung: 28. Feb 2019, 12:15 von OakenShield224 »

Julio229

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Re: Imrahil - Prince of Dol Amroth
« Antwort #1 am: 6. Okt 2018, 14:34 »
I agree that Imrahil is kinda underused in 4.4.1, and this change would certainly make him be overall more useful, while retaining his capabilities and overhauling the ones that weren't all that good. It will also reflect his character better than the previous version did. Overall, I'm in favour of this suggestion!


AulëTheSmith

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Re: Imrahil - Prince of Dol Amroth
« Antwort #2 am: 6. Okt 2018, 15:38 »
I've used him very few times because of the reasons you stated. I like that you included his leadership in the stance system (much more useful like this than the classic three stances). I like the changes overall, he's much more effective in your concept. Therefore, my dear Oaken, you got a capital YES from me  8-)

Smeargollum

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Re: Imrahil - Prince of Dol Amroth
« Antwort #3 am: 6. Okt 2018, 17:02 »
I think that all of your suggestions are very cool and lore-frendly. But I don't know if the hero might be a littel bit strong because the beacons troops get an revision in the next version whitch will probably buff them and if we add also an poverfull supporter it could be to strong. Also the leaderships of Aragorn, Boromir and Faramir efects them and then plus the new Imrahil... I don't know. But I think when it is not op it would very nice to give Imrahil youre new abilitys.
So all over I like youre idea!
Have a nice day!
Smeargollum
« Letzte Änderung: 6. Okt 2018, 17:06 von Smeargollum »


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The_Necromancer0

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Re: Imrahil - Prince of Dol Amroth
« Antwort #4 am: 6. Okt 2018, 17:29 »
Very much agree with this system. My only comment is the stance system. I'm not sure whether it is still wise to keep the original stance as it might deter users from changing the buff if it also put Imrahil at risk. For example if he is engaged in combat against a strong foe, changing him to aggressive stance to buff the troops would also result in him taking more damage. Just food for thought.

Overall, as I've stated previously, this is going to make Imrahil a mighty hero in my opinion. He might even need a price increase  :D

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NoldorSithLordsShipwright

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Re: Imrahil - Prince of Dol Amroth
« Antwort #5 am: 7. Okt 2018, 04:39 »
I agree that Imrahil as currently implemented is quite underwhelming compared to how he is described in the books. I feel that this would definitely make Imrahil a better, less gimmicky part of Gondor's hero roster.

I am in favor.

Isildurs Fluch

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Re: Imrahil - Prince of Dol Amroth
« Antwort #6 am: 7. Okt 2018, 12:46 »
I´m also in favor of this pruposal...
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OakenShield224

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Re: Imrahil - Prince of Dol Amroth
« Antwort #7 am: 7. Okt 2018, 12:56 »
Thanks for the support! For balance, the numbers can be changed later on if it is too overpowered. My concern was mainly to make Imrahil a worthwhile purchase. As Necro said, a price increase could also be applied if Imrahil becomes too strong.

As for the stance system, the way I see it, it isn't too different from Thranduil's system. The main difference being that Thranduil's affects himself, while Imrahil's affects others around him. It would mainly encourage users of Imrahil to be slightly more cautious if they want to make the best use of the bigger buffs.

Gnomi

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Re: Imrahil - Prince of Dol Amroth
« Antwort #8 am: 7. Okt 2018, 13:22 »
I don't think that you can use the stance systems flawlessly for leaderships.

Leaderhips normale reset every 1 second and last at least 2 seconds.
Otherwise it would cause problems, as it could happen that you loose the leadership for a short period of time. (less than 1 second is also problematic, as it causes bugs).
Also I think that there can't be a (visible) cooldown for switching between  the stances.
That means taht you can constantly have 2 or even all 3 leaderships at once, if you just switch constantly between the stances.

OakenShield224

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Re: Imrahil - Prince of Dol Amroth
« Antwort #9 am: 7. Okt 2018, 14:20 »
Edited the original post with an idea to have "To Gondor's Aid" be included in his current leadership palantir to avoid technical and balance issues with the stances.

Seleukos I.

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Re: Imrahil - Prince of Dol Amroth
« Antwort #10 am: 7. Okt 2018, 17:07 »
Hello all together,
I haye to say I really like that idea. :)
With one exeption:
Zitat
- To Gondor's Aid (needs level 3)- Imrahil brings support to Minas Tirith in its time of need. Select a target Border Stronghold to give it a permanent bonus. Repeatedly selecting a Stronghold will improve it further:
   First Upgrade – Dol Amroth troops are recruited with forged blades
   Second Upgrade – Dol Amroth troops are recruited with heavy armour
   Third Upgrade – Dol Amroth troops can be recruited for 50% of their original price
This would be far to strong (if I understood the ability correctly :D ). After the third upgrade you can recruit elit Units with heavy arnor and forged blades for 250?
I would Change the Bonus to
first upgrade: Dol Amroth troops are recruited at Level two
second upgrade: Dol Amroth troops are recruited 20% (or more) faster
third upgrade:Dol Amroth troops can be recruited for 50% of their original Price

For a level five ability this should be strong enought, I think.

But I like the rest of the Concept :)

best regardes
Seleukos I.

Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Imrahil - Prince of Dol Amroth
« Antwort #11 am: 28. Feb 2019, 01:01 »
You have my dafür for simple reason - I don't use him, I really don't know what to do with him and what he is supposed to be or what his abilities are about.
Maybe it's because that outpost fortress isn't so interesting like Mirkwood or Dol Guldur etc.
But it's just another reason why in Dol Amroth should be really interesting hero, worthy of building that fortress.

OakenShield224

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Re: Imrahil - Prince of Dol Amroth
« Antwort #12 am: 28. Feb 2019, 12:14 »
Thanks for the support Tiberius! I think Imrahil is a weak hero in general, but also a symptom of the issue with the fiefdoms (which I've heard has been fixed for 4.5). As for the fortress, I wouldn't really say that it's the worst fortress in game (mainly because Dol Amroth soldiers are pretty good) but I wouldn't really say it is the best and part of that is due to Imrahil.

SP19XX

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Re: Imrahil - Prince of Dol Amroth
« Antwort #13 am: 28. Feb 2019, 13:22 »
I think the issue also stems from it being one of the more costly Outpost structures (beaten only by Minas Morgul / Dol Guldur) and tied with Ered Mithrin that is then reliant on a second structure for his full potential that is reliant on time and free command points. While the Dol Amroth Swordsmen are strong, they lack the formation that grante Gondor it's tankiness and their buff can be negligible, especially if we now consider in 4.5 that the Formations of Gondor can cover this gap of it's own accord, and the range of units Imrahil supports is very low indeed.

The Knights of Dol Amroth then are powerhouses as heroic cavalry, but require a minimum investment of 3500 before they can even hit the field and are locked behind a low-mid tier supporting hero at best.

Only True Witchking

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Re: Imrahil - Prince of Dol Amroth
« Antwort #14 am: 28. Feb 2019, 14:16 »
I'm also in favour of this suggestion. I always liked Imrahil as a character, and he deserves to be more useful.
“In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl. A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face."

dgsgomes

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Re: Imrahil - Prince of Dol Amroth
« Antwort #15 am: 4. Nov 2019, 12:40 »
Although I agree that Imrahil's abilities need to be improved and even though I liked this suggestion very much, there is something about it that bothers me a lot: palantir change - this device, as well as abilities with very long and detailed descriptions, IMO makes the game more complex impractically and bad for novice players. I believe the palantir exchange worked brilliantly only for Sauron (necromancer and ring-hero), given not only his figure in the books, but also the fact that he is an extremely central point in Mordor's strategy - so learning all of his skills is a must.

That said, I will respectfully make some suggestions for modifying the abilities you have proposed so as to AVOID creating another palantir for Imrahil - but I want to make it clear that I do not want to dispute your suggestion, which by the way already has a good degree of acceptance; freedom is all yours to accept or not  :)

Level 1: Mount / Dismount - switch between mounted and on foot - remains unchanged

Level 1: Prince of Dol Amroth - Soldiers of the fiefdoms near Imrahil will be granted +15% attack and armor and nearby Cavalry will have -15% crush reduction by this leadership (passive ability)
- this way it would be possible to preserve the idea of the abilities you made while keeping the "For Honour" ability's essence, as well as making a more synthetized skill  ;)
- Also, having both the attack and armor leadership only fits better IMO, as it gives a more "neutral" feeling to Imrahil, the one who agressively led the defences of Gondor (and also leaving the more agressive leadership role for Faramir and the more defensive leadership role for Boromir)  :)

Level 3: To Gondor's aid - Imrahil brings support to Minas Tirith in its time of need. Select a target Border Stronghold to give it a permanent bonus. Repeatedly selecting a Stronghold will improve it further:
   First Upgrade – Dol Amroth troops are recruited 20% faster
   Second Upgrade – Dol Amroth troops can be recruited for 75% of their original price
   Third Upgrade – Dol Amroth troops are recruited with heavy armour

- I'd rather have the Dol Amroth Troops recruited with banner carrier instead of heavy armour, as it would keep the more "neutral" feeling to Imrahil as I said before (it would also not conflict with minor details, like Ring-Hero Boromir's ability of automatically giving heavy armour to all units) - everything else remains unchanged

Level 8: Atheling Guard – Imrahil summons his atheling guard from Dol Amroth to his side. The Atheling Guard allow Imrahil to recharge his abilities 33% faster and grant him +15% armour as long as they remain close together. If the Guard is summoned while Imrahil is mounted, the Guard will be mounted. If the Guard is summoned while Imrahil is on foot, the Guard will be on foot. Only 1 battalion can be summoned at the same time. They are summoned at level 1 and can gain experience.
- I'd make this a level 6 ability to fill the gaps better, and instead of giving it a faster ability recharge time I would give +30% experience to Imrahil to make the ability more useful with the changes - everything else remains unchanged

Level 10: Discipline - in Gondor's darkest hour, Imrahil temporarily takes command of its armies. For 30 seconds, his leadership will affect all allied troops as well as fiefdoms troops. Dol Amroth troops will heal themselves after every attack. All nearby non-Dol Amroth troops gain +50% experience - remains unchanged

Anyway, I hope you like it! Even though Imrahil is a very important character, I don't think that heroes like him (or Mouth of Sauron, for example) should receive 2 palantirs; instead, I pratically did not change your suggestions, I just made them compatible with a single palantir with few small modifications - it is much better gameplay-wise IMO. I've seen that you already made some balance changes after people gave you some feedback, which is also great :)

I hope I helped somehow  :)


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dkbluewizard2

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Re: Imrahil - Prince of Dol Amroth
« Antwort #16 am: 4. Nov 2019, 12:51 »
I'd make this a level 6 ability to fill the gaps better, and instead of giving it a faster ability recharge time I would give +30% experience to Imrahil to make the ability more useful with the changes - everything else remains unchanged.

I think that the problem with more experience is that it becomes useless after Imrahil reaches level 10, and this gets amplified by it being available so late.

Signed,
The Only True Witchking
“In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl. A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face."

dgsgomes

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Re: Imrahil - Prince of Dol Amroth
« Antwort #17 am: 4. Nov 2019, 13:07 »
I personally don't think level 6 is too late, nor I think that reaching level 10 with Imrahil, a not very accessible hero, is an easy task - I personally don't remember getting him on level 10; also, levelling up faster to reach the level 10 ability, which is quite strong, is a great deal, furthermore, having the permanent heroic unit and the significant armor boost for Imrahil are great things and will still make the ability very useful after level 10  ;)

dkbluewizard2

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Re: Imrahil - Prince of Dol Amroth
« Antwort #18 am: 20. Jul 2020, 08:07 »
I really like this idea. Please put me on the favor list.