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Autor Thema: Dwarven Outpost Discussion  (Gelesen 8713 mal)

OakenShield224

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Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« am: 4. Dez 2018, 18:03 »
Hello everyone!

I want to talk about something that hasn't really seen much discussion, but I feel is still important. This is the Dwarven outposts.

Ered Mithrin first: while the individual units are pretty unique and the building itself is really interesting, the dragonslayers are quite weak and aren't really used that much in games. The outpost itself is also one of the most expensive outposts in game (especially with all the upgrades), and so far it isn't really reflecting the cost.

Dale and Laketown is where the main issue is though. As of right now, the main use they have is resource generation and a forward outpost with a tower and a well. However, this isn't really a reason to choose it over the generic outpost which can be just as good of a forward base if you use the Stonemason upgrades to get the defensive buildplots. The units aren't useful beyond just having larger battalion sizes. The regular Ered Luin units are faster than the Laketown units, and the Erebor Axethrowers are better than the Dale Archers. Overall, the units just don't have a use in the dwarven factions as they currently stand. The same can be said of the heroes Bard and Brand. Both of them work around supporting the Laketown/Dale units, but if those units aren't bought then there isn't a reason to really get the heroes either. Brand's Inherited Black Arrow ability is decent but Erebor doesn't really need more high damage when they have heroes like Stonehelm. The same situation goes for Bard, except he deals an extra bonus to monsters and dragons which means that it would only be useful against Mordor (and Goblins in the future).

So now I've hopefully explained why the outposts need some reworking. The only question now is what to do with them which is what I want to ask here. One option is to nerf the Erebor axethrowers and to buff the Dale Archers, giving them more of a role in the faction. The same thing could work with the Ered Luin and Laketown archers. However, in both scenarios, it would still leave the pikemen and swordsmen without a use. The best case scenario would be the outposts to fill in something that the dwarves lack (like how Mirkwood offers tankier units to Lorien or Minas Morgul/Dol Guldur offers stronger orcs to replace the basic Mordor orcs) but the dwarves (especially Ered Luin) don't really lack anything that the outposts could then replace.

I'd like to hear what you have to say about this topic. What do you think should happen to the outposts?/

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #1 am: 4. Dez 2018, 21:59 »
This isn't so much what I think is best for those two outposts but rather what I'd like to see.

First of all I would like to see the dale archers become semi-elites limited to a certain number. They would remain the same price but gain a good stat increase possibly alongside a battalion size decrease. They would come to compliment the Axethrowers' shorter range and allow the dwarves to hit enemy archers in the backline, since it is what it seems their ability are intended to help with. Perhaps their ability could even be changed to a temporary ability that makes them shoot black arrows for a short time in exchanged for reduced movement speed?

Much in that same fashion, Dale swordsmen would become the same semi-limited elites that excel at fighting other swordsmen thanks to their shield and skill and in addition can use their formation to catch up to the fleeing units if need be. Upgrading them with forged blades further improves that strength by allowing them to deal additional damage to swordsmen.

I don't have a specific concept in mind for the pikemen, can't just have them deal additional damage to pikemen that would be a weird synergy in my opinion. Following that if their price is reduced, Laketown soldiers could come in as cannon fodder and help with Ered Luin's army and have that as their unique edge.

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AulëTheSmith

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #2 am: 5. Dez 2018, 00:54 »
They would remain the same price but gain a good stat increase possibly alongside a battalion size decrease.

Totally agree with Necro on this point. I always think that the logic "weak units in large numbers" does not fit very well on Dale nor it does on Lake Town. Both the Towns have not a large army but rather few but well trained guards. What about reduce the number to 10 unit (with improved stats) and limit each type to three battallions at maximum?
I don't have new formations or new abilites in mind right now, but i would like to hear any new ideas that can make the two armies more useful as well as unique :)

Walküre

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #3 am: 6. Dez 2018, 16:47 »
I second the opinion that smaller battalions would suit the context better. Needless to say, rendering some of the exclusive units of both outposts (or all of them, as to say) elite would actually make said sub-factions a good deal more appealing. Balance and values aside, this might be a rather good start to move from, though I've not figured out how to keep the whole ensemble coherent yet. Logically, elite troops firstly exist as a prerogative of the main faction; the beating heart of the entire structure. So, one great challenge of whatever proposal would probably be to conceive a harmonious and detailed design that takes into consideration every single aspect we've hitherto hinted at.

A few possible guidelines that could help the debate develop:
1. What will be the general logic behind the concept? A quality-based one, or just a balance rearrangement?
2. If elite troops are to be included, they would necessarily need a set of distinctive features to dispose of.
3. How will all reconcile with the main Dwarven castle/camp? Dwarves already have a couple of unique tricks up their sleeve. Not only will suggestions have to fit well in the holistic portrait, but any distinct ability or mechanics should sport a satisfying degree of differentiation, too.

Anyway, I myself don't feel like proposing something specific, for now. I haven't pictured anything fixed or defined in my mind. I'll gladly let others take the initiative :)

Smeargollum

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #4 am: 15. Dez 2018, 20:18 »
Hello everybody!
Better late than never xD So I wil post here what I think about this topic. First of all I have to say I realy like the topic and the desire to talk about that dwarven outposts because I don't like two of them and the third I have never build so far 8-|

Dale and Lake Towen:
I (and many other multiplayer player) feel that they are very op because two of them on e.g. the map FoI2 give as much mony as the whole map. So I think that have to be nerved. But it shouldn't be that after that nobody build them. So I would say the units must get better. But I don't know how this could be managed because when that man of a towen who are the whole day fishing can fight better than a dwarve who is born for fighting it is not very logical [ugly]
Making them more quickly than dwarves only Erebor is effekted because Ered Luin is just quick. But even by Erebor it isn't a real reason to build that units of Dale. When you have some ideas how to make them more atracktive I would like to hear them!

Ered Mithrin:
I have never build that outpost so I don't know much about it but I will also write something to this. As OakenShield224 already said it is very expensive. I don't know how strong the units and the dragonslayer are so I can't say somethig to this 8-|
But I think it could also be a reason why it is so unatrctive that Iron Hills are so bad. Or better the other two dwarven factions are way better. And when in the multiplayer someone picks Iron Hills he wants to troll or he don't want to play an op faction like Erebor or ered Luin. So when this would be changed it might be that the Ered Mithrin outpost become more often used. :)

So I hope you understand my bad english [uglybunti]
Best regards Smeargollum
« Letzte Änderung: 15. Dez 2018, 20:22 von Smeargollum »


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OakenShield224

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #5 am: 15. Dez 2018, 21:11 »
I agree with Aule on logic behind their armies. The regions have a large population to really justify a spam tactic. They don't really seem as a region to just throw soldiers at the enemy.

I agree on the idea that Dale can focus on longer range archers while the axe throwers (currently big glass cannons) become a bit more balanced. However, we'd then need to find a way of applying this too the other units as well. I do like Necro's idea of having them act as an anti-unit category counter.

One of the few things we see about Laketown's soldiers in the films is that they are mainly just guards. One idea could be that they act as a slower, defensive unit in the game, designed to support allied buildings (and the outpost especially). This could then contrast the fast, offensive Ered Luin units. What do you think?

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #6 am: 15. Dez 2018, 21:26 »
A wild thought runs in my head....

Unlike the other realms of men, Laketown and Dale were always much smaller in size both surviving thanks to their alliance with other forces, Laketown with Mirkwood and Dale with Erebor. Dale was completely unable to hold out against the invasion of the Easterlings and only survived thanks to help of the dwarves, and laketown was never truly tested in combat apart from the battle of the five armies, which they brought only 200 or so people. Their main army force was the militia that kept the "peace" (read: beat up Bard), of course the regular people would still be able to grab weapons and hit the nearest enemy with it. So here's my best shot at a new concept for LakeTown:

Getting the housing upgrade now allows recruitment of Bard and of a unit called Roused Townsfolk
Getting the military section allows to train the usual milita units, "elite" troops with small battalion sizes and limited. Their abilities become more defensive oriented (oaks idea), meant to protect a city rather than fight on open fields.

Bard's leadership now switches between providing a big buff to the roused townsfolks (Men of the People) and providing a lesser buff to all Laketown units (Heir of Girion)

Roused townfolks are a spammable units with the old battalion sizes and stats of peasants? maybe weaker than peasants. I'm sure they could use a passive or an active ability but I don't have anything in mind rn.

Still a bit rough of an idea but that's basically it, current laketown infantry becomes restricted and elite-ish and rouse townfolks, a spammble units, becomes the bulk of your laketown force with bard as support.
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Julio229

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #7 am: 15. Dez 2018, 23:29 »

I quite like this idea! Would it be the same for Dale, or would Dale have something different? Since maybe it wouldn't fit with Dale.


The_Necromancer0

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #8 am: 15. Dez 2018, 23:38 »
It could be adapted to Dale but I personally feel like it wouldn't fit. Dale is a prosperous city, much more civilized with clearer separations. The standard of living is higher and there is no need to know how to fight to survive. They would be able to field a greater militia force but the townsfolk wouldn't know how to fight. So I would keep my other concept for Dale as it is, limit the Dale militia troops to like 4-5 and limit the Laketown militia troop to 3.
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OakenShield224

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #9 am: 16. Dez 2018, 16:52 »
I really like your idea Necro. And I agree that it wouldn't really fit with Dale.

Another potential idea that could be included is the concept of trade. I feel like it could be included in someway that to Dale, seeing as it had economic relations with Mirkwood, Erebor, Rhovanion, Rhun, and even Gondor after the War. If this is implemented in someway, it could be something else that could differentiate it from Lake Town.

Smeargollum

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #10 am: 16. Dez 2018, 19:26 »
I have to say it sounds logic that the normal people of lake towen are on the level of pesants. But that unit you called Roused townfolk won't be build I think. Because when they are so weak there is no reason to build them imo. You have to get an outpost that costs 800 and then upgrad it with an upgrad that costs 400 or 500 (I don't remember right now). This is a lot of mony you have to pay for the opotunity to build a unit that is very weak. And also when they would cost about 100 resorces you could just pay 100 more and buy a gardian battelion. While you can recrute peasants since the first minute of the game you need a few minutes until you can recrute the Roused townfolk.
What do you think about this?
Sry for bad english 8-|
Best regards Smeargollum


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The_Necromancer0

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #11 am: 16. Dez 2018, 21:33 »
True that they would need to be incentivized. I'd like to point out however that the Housing Area would be built eventually since it allows the player to get resources from his building.  So being able to recruit this unit is just an extra bonus. However, you're right that the cost would be a problem considering how cheap standard dwarven infantry (those dwarves, always ready to fight over a couple pennies). The way I would do it is to reduce their CP and recruitment time. You could mass them more quickly and in larger number, in addition, once bard is recruited he could synergize with them to make them worth every penny. Perhaps a horde bonus too? Don't wanna make them OP but the current state of Dale and Laketown is sad, merely used as anchors on the map when their lore has so much to offer.
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Smeargollum

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #12 am: 18. Dez 2018, 19:07 »
Good evening!
I think it would need a few things to make that unite well integrited:
1. The things that you sad (Horde bonus, low Cp cost and low recrutement time)
2. What about making the dwarven gardians a bit more expensive? Like on the level of
    the Uruk-Hai of Isengard. Because I think it would be quite cool and logic if the
    dwarves would cost more than Gondor soldirs. And if a change like this wouldn't
    destroy all kind of balance in this mod I would realy like to see it.
When the dwarves would get a bit more expensive it might be a reason to build some spamm units even is a later game.
What do you think about this?
Sry for bad english 8-|
Best regards Smeargollum


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The_Necromancer0

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #13 am: 18. Dez 2018, 19:25 »
Making the guardians more expensive would force the user to build spam but it would make it impossible to play dwarves unless the stats of the guardians were also boosted. If the enemy dwarf is forced to get an outpost to survive then it becomes easy to guess his strategy, if you block the outpost they'll be unable to spam out troops. I don't think touching the current balance is a good idea, we should preferably work to incentivize the spam troops by making them more attractive standalone troops.

In my eyes, the current benefits from the the roused townfolks should be enough, they're a cheaper alternative to dwarves that you can mass rapidly and in greater numbers. In addition, with Bard and enough troops you get additional buffs.
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Smeargollum

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #14 am: 18. Dez 2018, 19:58 »
Oh I forgott writing it but of course I meaned also to buff the stats of the dwarves. And I think forcing the dwarve to rush an outpost would be very boring and would make a campy game and nobody wants that.
But I think you are right that it would be better to leave the balance system unaffected.
Zitat
to incentivize the spam troops by making them more attractive standalone troops.
I don't have a idea how to make this in this example. Because the outpost comes late or at least later than the barracks for other spamm units. And in the game phase when the outpost can come there isn't a reason to build a spamm unit for me. And I can't thought of a role that this unite could have in the faction Ered Luin. Because the Ered Luin gardians are also very quick can fight better than the roused townfolk (without Bard) and are not very expensive. And instead of buying a oupost upgrade it for recruting units in it and getting Bard (that the  roused townfolk can fight much better) you can simply buy a Thorin and then your dwarves are much better. So I don't know which role this unite could get. I would like to hear which role you think would fit for this unit.
Best regards Smeargollum!


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AulëTheSmith

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #15 am: 23. Dez 2018, 13:45 »
I think that such a units could still serve also in middle game, as long as they are cheap and in large numbers. The idea of recruiting them via the houses is both consistent (the very core population of Lake Town) as well as useful in my opinion in a gameplay perspective. Here an idea about design from GW:


They should be an non-upgradable units, with raw weapons. Very similar to Rohan peasants but with some different passive ability that i have not in mind right now.
Furthermore, coming back to the Lake Town guards, that on the contrary we want to make more interesting, here an interesting quote from the book which i had inspiration for another crazy idea, so to say  [ugly]:

Zitat von: The Hobbit, Chapter XVII - The Cloud Burst
With cries of “Moria!” and “Dain, Dain!” the dwarves of the Iron Hills plunged in, wielding their mattocks, upon the other side; and beside them came the men of the Lake with long swords

What about make the lake town swordmen wield a longer sword? This would justify an ability (suitable for an elitè unit) that both can reduce the speed and also break easier the armor of the enemy. A more advanced version of the current "Hold at Bay!". In this way we would have Dale Swordmen with light blade and shield, lake town swordmen with heavy blades. Maybe also a change of the animation should be necessary in that case (Carn Dum swordmen for example?). It would also make them appear more elitè rather than just a copy of other light swordmen in Edain. I'm aware that a heavy weapons are not exactly very confortable for a guard (who must chase down outlows and enemies of the master), but they surely are more suitable for an elite guard who can fight in the middle of a big battle.   
All of this keeping the idea of reducing the battalion from 15 to 10 men.
« Letzte Änderung: 2. Jan 2019, 01:06 von AulëTheSmith »

Lorienkeks

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #16 am: 28. Dez 2018, 21:25 »
Hey Folks,

I just read the thread and my idea is to make the 3 Dale and Laketown units an eliteunit, and limitate them on 1. And Bard and Brand get a Spell to spawn Rouse Townfolk near a Dale/Laketown unit. They could also be against their own type.

Hope you like it

Smeargollum

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #17 am: 31. Dez 2018, 15:52 »
Hello everybody!
I have to say the idea of AulëTheSmith is very intresting . :) Because it would fit to Ered Luin when they get a swordunit that can hold the line better than the weaker Ered Luin gardians. I think it would be cool if they would have a ability to break the enymies armor.
They could kill havy armored units very fast and it would fit to the long swords.
So I have to say that I realy like your idea Aulë!
But I still don't think that this unit Roused Townfolk will have a change to get in this mod because they are a eg (early game) unit but they don't come in the eg because you need that outpost first.
Zitat
to make the 3 Dale and Laketown units an eliteunit, and limitate them on 1
I don't think that it is good to limit this units to one because:
1. You could only build three units in this outpost. Ok, maybey you can spamm tonns
    of the Roused Towenfolk guys. But I don't think that this would be realy cool. 8-|
2. If they get to elite level like the unit Aulë suggests I wouldn't say they shouldn't be
    limited.
This is what I think about this. Mabey others think diffrent? ;)
Sorry for bad english xD
I wish you a happy new year!
Best regards Smeargollum
« Letzte Änderung: 31. Dez 2018, 15:55 von Smeargollum »


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Tienety

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #18 am: 21. Jan 2019, 10:52 »
I think main problem are too weak units on dwarves outpost. We do not need any limit for units from Dale/Lake-Town.
If we look to vanilla, Dwarves have available two units cheap Axe Throwers and more expensive Men of Dale with bows. Dale/Lake-Town outpost need to offer better archers like in vanilla.

Just make Dale/Lake-Town/Ered Mithrin units more expensive and stronger like men of Carn Dum.

Smeargollum

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #19 am: 23. Jan 2019, 18:06 »
Hello Tienety!
It is an intressting idea I have to say, but I personally don't like it for the sword and pike units of Dale and Laketowen outpost because it is imo not very logic that normal men are stronger in fighting than dwarves. So I don't like it for all units of this outposts but I quite like it for the archers just because dwarves don't like to kill the enymy with a bow. They love to kill them with axes :D
And when I remember corectly it is described it the books that the archers of Laketowen and also from Dale are quite good. So it would fit in my opinion that the archers get to elite-level but I don't think it would fit for the swords and pikes.
Good evening Smeargollum


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Tienety

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #20 am: 23. Jan 2019, 23:57 »
Well, maybe this is a reason why we have only Dale archers in vanilla. :D
Dwarves need only better archers from Lake-Town/Dale from outpost. They have better infantry in castle.
Maybe Dale/Lake-Town Spearmen and Swordsmen can be just some temporarily summon from Outpost's bulding.

kmogon

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #21 am: 26. Jan 2019, 10:37 »
I would like to share some of my ideas about how I would imagine Dale and Laketown outposts should look.But before that we have to consider why they need change and reasons for this, I think, are:
1. units which don't represent their homeland properly as well as they don't really fit in dwarven playstyle.
2. Poorer defense and economy compared to basic outpost.

So my idea isn't focused on one of the towns but on them in general. Also I dislike staying with spam tactic in form of armed peasants but I managed to fit them in.

Outpost would have new power as soon as he will be built called
Defenders of the city - for a short amount of time spawn one battalion of armed townsmen who will defend their city to last man standing. Increase number of spawning battalions by one for every upgrade done to city.
In another words fully upgraded city will be able to call 5 battalions of peasants

About townsmen they will be basic infantry with one passive skill called
I don't really know right now - slightly increase armor for every peasant as well as dale/laketown unit near.
That would make them even more effective in larger numbers which would stop enemy long enough for dwarves to arrive.

About military units. Due to Dale and Laketown being cities, not countries, their army should consist of well trained units in small size. Also there is no need for them to cover late game as all elite units do, but rather to support dwarves in aspects which they have lacking.
So I would make them limited to 3 battalions for every kind ( 9 battalions in total ) and decrease their units number from 15 to 10, with increasing their stats.
Their present at the battle would be more in supportive way than as main late game army.

We would start with archers. As we all know Dale archers are one of the best in whole middle earth so thats normal they shouldn't be considered as basic ones. I came up with this idea for them:

skilled marksmen (passive skill) - every shot decrease speed of enemy by 30%. If target is a monster its speed is decreased by 60%

this skill would allow to slightly decrease speed disadvantage of dwarves in therms of cauching reatreating enemies

long shot(formation/temporary skill?) - greatly increase fire range and damage, but greatly decrease fire rate.
This skill is what I think is lacking for now in Edain - a true sniping unit with great damage but low fire rate. It also, after fire arrow upgrade, allows dwarves to deal with one problem which I see in some battles in recent Edain version - catapults. They can deal lots of damage in two armies combat but their speed allows other factions' units to deal with them relatively quickly. Due to dwarfs being slower it's hard time to deal with siege engines. And here comes the power which allows to deal with this disadvantage.

As for now it's all, because time is not on my side but I will be thinking about the rest of units and I will gladly hear your feedback.

OakenShield224

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #22 am: 22. Feb 2020, 17:06 »
Hello everyone!

It's been a while but I'd like to continue this thread with a concept I've come up with for the Lake-town and Dale outposts. My main intention with these concepts is to make the outposts more unique, both from each other and from the Dunedain Outpost, as well as to make both the units and heroes more useful for the faction. Hopefully it'll also help the outposts fit better with their in-lore inspirations. It's an absolute unit of a concept so I've split it up. Note that all numbers are subject to change as balancing goes on.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First things first with Lake-town. From the descriptions of Lake-town in the books, and the appearances in the films, the town was in a decline from when Erebor was under Dwarven control. The people there had a lower standard of living and the main military force were local guards who were there to keep the peace. It was mainly the efforts of Bard that helped to improve the town and the livelihoods of those living in it (especially after the Battle of Five Armies when he helped to rebuild a home for them).

By default, the outpost would consist of a town centre that can produce resources roughly equivalent to a standard resource structure. It will be able to recruit the Lake-Town units as standard without any upgrades required before their recruitment.  Bard himself will be a main focus of the sub-faction to support both the units and building itself. He will be the centre of the Lake-town's development in a similar manner to Cirdan. But more detail on him later.

The Outpost can use the following abilities:

Master’s Influence – The Master of Lake-town exerts his influence on the Outpost. For a short time, the outpost produces double resources. However, Bard and any Lake-town units across the map are weakened, and the Outpost will be unable to heal nearby units or fire arrows.

Town Defence – Summons a battalion of Roused Townsfolk to defend the Outpost for a short time. The number of summoned battalions can be increased through the Housing upgrades.

Roused Townsfolk (basic weak swordsmen with large battalion sizes):
 - The Common Folk (for each individual unit of the Townsfolk in the area, the Townsfolk gain an extra +1% armour and damage. Passive)


This concept will reduce the standard economic potential of the outpost. As such, Master's Influence acts as a temporary economic boost at the expensive of your military and defenses. It will be up to the player to see if this drawback is worth it. Town Defence on the other hand should act as a short-term defensive option to hold off small attacks and delay enemy forces till reinforcements arrive. This is partly to compensate for how much harder the defensive upgrades are to access with this concept. This fits with what we saw of them in the Hobbit where each person would be willing to fight to defend their home. It can be improved by the following upgrade:
Housing – the Lake-town outpost will earn +25% resources. Will increase the number of battalions summoned by Town Defence by one. Can be bought 3 times. Visual effect: adds extra houses to the outside of the central building.

The current units of the outpost are very underutilised, mainly because they can't do anything that the standard dwarves do not do already. They were originally used as a faster alternative to the slower, tankier dwarves, but this all changed in 4.3 with the Dwarven Renaissance. As such, this concept will change the heroes to suit the current style of the basic Ered Luin Dwarves.
The Outpost allows access to the following units. The units of the outpost will be slower than the Ered Luin units, focusing on their role as local guards. They also have an extra couple of units per battalion. They'd act in a defensive manner to defend buildings and compliment Ered Luin's speed. As such, they are more designed to hold an area as opposed to the dwarves who would spread out further and take new land. This suits the military shown in the Hobbit which was mainly there to keep the peace and prevent dissent (films) and to protect the town against dragon attacks (books). If needed, the Ered Luin archers can have their range reduced slightly to provide incentive for these units.

Lake-Town Guards (The Guards of Lake-town had one main job: to keep the peace in a town that would become more and more tense as conditions got worse. They were a symbol of authority in the town and would fight off anyone who caused trouble.
Pikemen. Can get HA and FB):
 -   Defenders of Lake-Town - the Guards gain a small damage boost when around allied (dwarven) buildings and a larger boost when close to the Lake-Town outpost. Passive
 -   Hold at Bay - activate to reduce the speed of units they strike for small time by 20%. If the Guards are close to an allied building, the speed reduction is increased to 40%.

Lake-Town Archers (Lake-town's Archers were often sent out to fight off ranging parties who approached the town. However, their ultimate test came when Smaug the Terrible descended on the town and they were forced to fight for their lives.
Higher range than Ered Luin Archers. Can get HA and FA):
 -   Defenders of Lake-Town - the Archers gain a small damage boost when around allied (dwarven) buildings and a larger boost when close to the Lake-Town outpost. Passive
 -   Damage Control - activate to reduce the damage of units they strike for a small time by 20%. If the Archers are close to an allied building, the damage reduction is increased to 40%.


Bard the Bowman will also get a rework to show his role in the story as slayer of Smaug and rebuilder of Dale...the "man of the people". This concept will also hopefully give more of a choice about whether to use the shortbow or longbow in combat, something that is very underutilised in current versions of the mod. This is done by allowing this choice to affect his other abilities as well. As Bard levels up, he will be able to improve the Outpost itself, as well as improving the units that come with it. Roused Townsfolk can be supported from across the map (which fits with how much the common folk looked up to Bard) while the main militia would need to be in Bard's proximity. I have removed the current Smuggler ability because of it being unnecessary with the faction. Ered Luin is already the fastest of the dwarven factions and can use the mineshafts to travel even faster. In addition, the faction gains little bonuses from the stealth compared to Lothlorien. By removing it, this plan can focus more on Bard's status as a leader of Lake-town and rebuilder of Dale.

Level 1: Bow Toggle – Switch between the shortbow and longbow. The shortbow will have a higher rate of fire but the longbow will have a higher range.
Level 3: Man of the People – Bard grants any Roused Townsfolk summoned by the Lake-town Outpost +25% armour and damage from across the map. Will also grant the bonus damage and armour to any nearby Lake-town units. Passive
As Bard levels up, he will attempt to return Lake-town to its former glory and improve the lives of its inhabitants. Passive. If a new outpost is built, there will be a delay before Bard’s upgrades have an effect (for balancing)

-   Level 3 – The outpost will be able to heal nearby units (can add a well to the outpost)
-   Level 6 – The outpost will fire arrows on nearby enemies
-   Level 10 – The outpost will have increased armour (could show with better stone foundations at the base of the outpost)
Level 5: Bard's Thrush - Bard's thrush rises into the air to scout enemy territory. Bard’s vision is increased in this time. The thrush can detect stealth in a large area around Bard and will slow nearby monsters and cavalry by 15%. If Bard is using his shortbow, it will reduce the damage of those affected by 15%. If Bard is using his longbow, it will reduce the armour of those affected by 15%.
Level 7: Girion’s Heir – as Bard comes into his own, the people of Lake-town accept him as their new leader. When activated, nearby Lake-town units will gain double experience in combat. Will also summon two permanent battalions of Roused Townsfolk to Bard’s side. These permanent battalions will cost CP
Level 10: Black Arrow – Bard fires his Black Arrow at the target, dealing massive damage and double that to monsters and dragons. After firing the arrow, Bard must retrieve it off the ground where he fired it to use it again. If Bard is using his shortbow, the Arrow will knock down and stun the target for 3s. If Bard is using his longbow, the Arrow will deal an additional +25% damage.

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The City of Dale was generally a bit better built than Lake-Town with stone on solid ground instead of wood on water. Living conditions were higher and the people of Dale were more powerful due to their close relationship with the Dwarves of Erebor. Dale was a trading realm with connections to various regions in Middle Earth, even going as far as Gondor or the Shire. It is this trade that is the core of the Dale Outpost.

The Dale Outpost consists of the central marketplace with a few houses around it. It will produce the same resources as a standard resource building and will have slightly higher health than the Lake-Town outpost. The Outpost will be defended by a few creep Dale guards (both melee and ranged). It will have the following ability:

Trade with the Mountain – Dale begins a trade deal with Erebor. When the ability is used on a target external mineshaft, the Dale Outpost will spawn a caravan that will automatically travel towards the target mineshaft. When it reaches the target, the mineshaft will earn +20% resources for a time. The caravan will also earn resources while on the battlefield (similarly to a standard resource building). If the caravan is destroyed before it reaches its destination, it will drop treasure that can be picked up by anyone. The caravan itself is uncontrollable.

This ability has a large risk/reward element. The greatest reward will come when further buildings are chosen, however this will leave the caravans vulnerable for a longer time. The player will need to decide which option is worth it given their situation in the game.
The Outpost will also have the following upgrades:

Trade with the Shire – Dale begins to trade with the Shire, exchanging hand-crafted toys for food and pipe weed. The Dale Outpost and Trading Caravans will permanent gain +20% resources. Visual effect: a few barrels of pipe weed on the Dale Outpost

Trade with the Woodland Realm – Dale begins to trade with the Woodland Realm, exchanging food for barrels and elvish assistance in times of need. Allied units around the Dale Outpost will be able to heal outside combat. Visual effect: adds a cart to the Outpost that looks similar to the carts of food used by Thranduil’s army in BotFA.

Trade with Dorwinion – Dale begins to trade with Dorwinion, acting as a crossroads between the Woodland Realm and the wine sellers of the east. The Dale Outpost and Trading Caravans are now protected by lightly armoured elven archers with high damage and low armour. The Outpost also earns +15% resources. Requires Trade with the Woodland Realm to have been bought.

Trade with the Shire and Dorwinion would keep the focus on Dale being an economic powerhouse. Trade with the Woodland Realm on the other hand, would allow for healing towards nearby units. This will not include the leadership bonuses provided by the current well upgrade however, and so will make the outpost and surrounding units less of a main to attack.

Dale had a higher standard of living than Lake-town and was generally more civilised. Their units will be more elite and so have a small limit to their number (3-5 maybe). They will have powerful archers that can disrupt enemy forces from range as well as faster swordsmen who can break away from enemies when surrounded. To compensate, axe throwers can be nerfed to act as short range, medium damage ranged units with a slower rate of fire.

Archers of the Thrush (after Bard the Bowman defeated the Smaug the Terrible with his bow and rebuilt Dale, he understood the importance of archers with the Northern Wastes so close. He then built an order of elite archers within the city whose job it was to master the bow and defend Dale in times of trouble. Though Bard is long dead, the order he created is still a highly respected organisation and its archers are some of the best archers east of the Woodland Realm.
Elite archers with high range. Can get HA and FA.)
 -  The Bowman’s Order – Whenever the Archers of the Thrush are firing, nearby allied archers gain a small damage boost. Passive
 -  Level 2: Black Arrows – The Archers fire their Black Arrows at the target, dealing higher damage, slowing them and lowering their vision for a few seconds.

Dale Swordsmen (the elite guards of King Brand were skilled with use of longswords. In battle, they will be able to keep their foes at range before charging forwards and catching them by surprise. Many of these warriors fell in the Siege of Erebor when defending their King from the Easterling forces.
Elite swordsmen that are faster than the Erebor units. Their attacks can strike from slightly further away. Can get HA and FB)
 -  Hold at Bay – with each strike, the Dale Swordsmen reduce the damage of those they strike. Passive
 -  Charge! –the Dale Swordsmen begin a charge. They temporary gain bonus speed and will knock over those they hit. When this time is over, they are slowed for a few seconds


As with Bard, Brand will also gain a rework that'll emphasis his role in the story as the King and defender of Dale who fell alongside King Dain in a last stand against the Easterling armies. The faction lacks a tanky hero and so Brand can help with this role, while also supporting the Dale units. This aspect can be improved when he is close to allied heroes and buildings, again representing his last stand at the Battle of Dale.
Note: Brand will not have a toggle in this concept and will primarily use his sword and shield. Also, I am still up for suggestions for the level 10. This was chosen because it is an iconic part of Brand, but it does not fully fit with him in this concept, so I will change it if a better ability comes up in discussions.
 
Level 1: Defence of the City – Brand will gain +1% armour for every second that he is in combat (up to a max of +30%). This will last for 10s after he leaves combat and will reset after this time. If Brand is close to an allied hero or building, he will gain +2% armour every second. Passive.
Level 3: King of Dale – Dale units in a large radius around Brand are temporarily immune to knockback and fear, and gain +15% armour, damage and +50% experience. In addition to this, they will also be affected by Brand’s armour boost from Defence of the City.
Level 5: Falcon’s Mark – Brand summons his falcon to mark a target enemy unit/hero/building. The target will be permanently revealed until the player uses the ability on another target, the target is killed, or Brand is killed. The target will also take more damage from Brand and Dale units.
Level 7: Last Stand – for a short time, Brand has heavily reduced speed. However, the limits on Defence of the City are removed and Brand will throw back enemies he strikes.
Level 10: Inherited Black Arrow – In his most desperate hour, Brand uses the Black Arrow he inherited from his grandfather. This ability does not have a cooldown time, and if used repeatedly does the same amount of damage as a normal attack. However, the longer the ability is left unused, the more damage it will do. If the ability is not used for 240 seconds (4 minutes), the attack will deal +200% normal damage. (Note: this ability needs buffs to how much the damage builds up)



Overall, I hope that this concept would be a good reworking for the currently lacklustre Dwarven Outposts. Credits to the Wikia Team (Necro in particular) who helped with quite a few ideas and helped to make it a bit more balanced from the start. I hope you all enjoyed the concept, and I'd appreciate any feedback.

In Favour:
Captain Corrigan (Discord)
Trondheim (Discord)
tolgayurdal
Necro
CaptainChunk
Julio229 (Discord)
NoldorSithLordsShipwrigh t
turin.turambar
Seleukos I.
One True Witchking
Smeargollum
Strider (Discord)
MaxPower (Discord)
kmogon't (Discord)
Bogdan Hmel


Against:
« Letzte Änderung: 4. Mai 2020, 13:42 von OakenShield224 »

tolgayurdal

  • Gast
Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #23 am: 22. Feb 2020, 17:52 »
Greetings!

Dwarven Outposts need a rework as known. I really like the consept, it is very nice. Lake Town and Bard parts suit lore-wised. Dale and trade relationships seems perfect. The only exception is Shire trade, i personally don't think that it can be happened nor necessary but of course it is just my opinion about it. Also Brand fits and becomes more useful in this consept. I want to congratulate every one who helps to prepare these ideas. Lastly, i support the consept.

Sincerely.

OakenShield224

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #24 am: 22. Feb 2020, 18:02 »
Thanks for the feedback! I'll add you to the "in favour" list.
With regards to the trade with the Shire, the city of Dale had quite a big trade in toys and other hand crafted goods. Some of these went to the Shire, especially when it came to a certain long-expected birthday party. Also, we can guess that trade continued between Erebor and Dale in the east and the Shire, Bree-lands and Ered Luin in the west.
Zitat
On this occasion [Bilbo's Birthday Party] the presents were unusually good. The hobbit-children were so excited that for a while they almost forgot about eating. There were toys the like of which they had never seen before, all beautiful and some obviously magical. Many of them had indeed been ordered a year before, and had come all the way from the Mountain and from Dale, and were of real dwarf-make...

Zitat
Noises of trumpets and horns, pipes and flutes, and other musical instruments. There were, as has been said, many young hobbits present. Hundreds of musical crackers had been pulled. Most of them bore the mark DALE on them; which did not convey much to most of the hobbits, but they all agreed they were marvellous crackers. They contained instruments, small, but of perfect make and enchanting tones. Indeed, in one corner some of the young Tooks and Brandybucks, supposing Uncle Bilbo to have finished (since he had plainly said all that was necessary), now got up an impromptu orchestra, and began a merry dance-tune. Master Everard Took and Miss Melilot Brandybuck got on a table and with bells in their hands began to dance the Springle-ring: a pretty dance, but rather vigorous.

tolgayurdal

  • Gast
Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #25 am: 22. Feb 2020, 18:42 »
I appericate the quotes from the book, it is beyond imagination appearently. The rest remains almost perfect as i specified.

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #26 am: 22. Feb 2020, 18:46 »
I support this concept as it provides a very nice differentiation between Dale and Laketown and hopefully also gives them both uses within their respective dwarven realms.
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CaptainChunk!

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #27 am: 22. Feb 2020, 19:27 »
Hey Oak,

I really liked the caravan mechanic and also Bard's set of abilities and utility to the faction that you presented, the outposts really need a change in my opnion. About the caravans, what is the limit of caravans you'll be able to use at the same time? 1 per outpost? I think the limit of the caravans is very important for balance. Great concept, you have my support.  :)

 

OakenShield224

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #28 am: 22. Feb 2020, 19:57 »
Hi Chunk!
It should be one caravan per outpost at any time. FG and I had a discussion about a similar concept a few months ago and he was saying that using more caravans at once would be very difficult to do with the auto pathing aspect of their movement. With this concept, the outpost is designed to help the slower Erebor sub-faction gain and get rewarded for holding map control.

NoldorSithLordsShipwright

  • Gast
Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #29 am: 22. Feb 2020, 23:40 »
I would like to declare that I too am in support of this proposal.

The differentiation between Dale and Lake-town is very much appreciated as well as the character you give them through their proposed mechanics - Lake-town as a run-down fishing town, Dale as a booming center of trade.

turin.turambar

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #30 am: 23. Feb 2020, 01:45 »
Not well known around here, but wanted to say I heavily SUPPORT this proposal. If I were to propose a bit of a tweaking, I'd say the lakeTown could use some more varied upgrades (though I'm not sure about which one), maybe make dale abilities unlock upgrades for sale instead of giving them freely, but I'm not an expert at balance, so no real opinion about it.

Concept looks anyway very refreshing and would imo add a great variety to the outpost available for dwarves.

Seleukos I.

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #31 am: 23. Feb 2020, 17:06 »
Hi,
I have to say I really like this concept :)
You can add me as "in favor".

I hope this will help to make the defensive focus of Dale and Laketown less important and the units and heroes more important^^

best regardes
Seleukos I.

Only True Witchking

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #32 am: 24. Feb 2020, 02:03 »
I absolutely love this suggestion!

In fact, the only thing I would want to change is the Lvl 10 ability of Brand.
Right now it appears as though he inherited Bard's Black Arrow, however that arrow sunk together with Smaug, and no one ever dared to come near the place were the dragon's corpse rotted.

To add to that, it does not fit with the rest of his concept as a strong defensive melee-hero and it seems quite underwhelming for a Lvl 10 ability.

Instead, I would change his Lvl 7 ability to something akin to this:
Steadfast Ally
The target allied (Dwarven-)hero gets +30% Armour for a medium period of time. Should the hero die during that time, Brand has area of effect damage for 10 seconds.
This resembles how Brand stood side by side with Dáin, each of them fighting to the last. Of course it was Dáin who fought over Brands corpse, but had Dáin fallen first, Brand would surely have done the same.
It would also extend his tank-aspect onto other heroes, which seems less out-of-concept than a ranged single-target attack.

Thus, "Last Stand" would move to Level 10. To compensate for this, the ability could gain the added effect of Brand healing himself with each strike, to further reinforce the idea that he gets stronger if he is fighting in melee combat, and to show his great resilience.

Of course this are only ideas - anything except the Black Arrow would do, really.

Other than that, I am completley in favour of this suggestion!

Signed,
The Only True Witchking
“In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl. A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face."

Smeargollum

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #33 am: 24. Feb 2020, 09:57 »
Hello together,
I am glad to see a new idea coming about this topic and have to say that I realy like it!
It would be realy cool for the gameplay to have this variations between this outposts, especially this eco-system of the Dale outpost sounds great.
Maybe it would be good to add a limitation to the elite units of Dale, because if not I fear that many Erebor players would just get the quicker elite units form the outpost instead of dwarven units which are so slow. But I am not sure about it.
Furthermore I would like the Brand level 10 ability suggested by Only true Witchking more as well; it just fitts a bit better imo.

But all over I am heavily in favor of this concept! :)


"What if the real balance was the friends we made along the way?"

OakenShield224

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #34 am: 24. Feb 2020, 18:15 »
Thanks for the support everybody!

Smeaegollum:
I like the idea of adding a limit to the Dale units, especially considering that they don't need an expansion to get them anymore. The units would also be more expensive than the standard Erebor units.

One True Witchking
When I was designing Brand, I wanted to keep the Black Arrow as a last-ditch effort type of ability. That being said, I wouldn't be opposed to it being replaced by something else that would suit his gameplay style a lot more. I'm not sure about your Steadfast Ally ability though. While it does suit the character, I'm a bit wary of granting dwarven heroes armour boosts (especially when it comes to heroes like Gimli or Thorin Stonehelm who are powerful enough already). I'd welcome any more suggestions though.

Bogdan Hmel

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #35 am: 29. Feb 2020, 12:23 »
OakenShield224, your concept is very interesting and I would be glad if it is implemented in the game.
I would like to make a small suggestion. Archers of Dale and Lake Town will be elite units, but you can hire a limited number of them. Or you can add a new elite detachment to the outpost - Bard / Brand's comrades-in-arms, you can only hire 1 or 2 battalions.
The team said that it does not want to have many types of units in the game, since each of them must have its own role. But there is a way out of this situation: they can add new units to the game that are unique, but in a limited number.

OakenShield224

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #36 am: 22. Mai 2020, 13:56 »
Hello everyone! I just want to add a little bit extra to the concept. After talking to FG15 about it on the Discord server, he said that it is unlikely that Brand would lose his bow, as it is a design choice that all factions within the mod would have at least one ranged hero. As such, I have reworked Brand's concept as follows:

Level 1: Toggle Weapon – Toggle between sword and shield/bow

Level 1: Defender of the City – For every second that Brand is in combat, he will gain +1% armour (up to a maximum of +30%). This lasts for 10s after he leaves combat and will reset after this time. Once he has reached the maximum armour boost, Brand will be immune to knockback and his attacks will knock back those they strike.

Level 3: King of Dale – For a short time, Dale units in a large radius around Brand gain +15% damage and armour, and +50% experience gain, as well as resistance to fear. The armour boost from Defender of the City will  also be applied to them in this time. Left click to activate

Level 7: Falcon’s Mark – Brand summons his falcon to mark the target unit. If used on an enemy, they will be revealed to the player and nearby enemies will take +15% more damage from Brand and Dale units. If used on an ally, they and nearby Dale units will gain increased vision, range and damage. The falcon’s effect is permanent until the marked unit is killed or Brand selects another target

Level 10: Last Stand – For a short time, Brand has heavily reduced speed. However, the limits of the armour boost of Defender of the City are removed and he will gain armour twice as quickly. His attacks will continually throw back those they strike. Sword attacks will deal a small AOE effect while bow attacks are faster.

This concept for Brand will make him a little more unique within the mod as a ranged tank hero. Having a tank hero is also something that's currently lacking within the Erebor faction. His Defender of the City and Last Stand abilities fit with his actions during the Battle of Dale where he defended the gate of Erebor. He will also be able to improve the skills of Dale units, making them more worthwhile in combat.

I look forward to seeing your feedback. If this concept gets more support, it will be included within the main Outpost concept.

Vin55

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Re: Dwarven Outpost Discussion
« Antwort #37 am: 22. Mai 2020, 14:23 »
Sounds good,

Yours kindly,

Vin55