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Dwarven Outpost Discussion

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OakenShield224:
Hello everyone!

I want to talk about something that hasn't really seen much discussion, but I feel is still important. This is the Dwarven outposts.

Ered Mithrin first: while the individual units are pretty unique and the building itself is really interesting, the dragonslayers are quite weak and aren't really used that much in games. The outpost itself is also one of the most expensive outposts in game (especially with all the upgrades), and so far it isn't really reflecting the cost.

Dale and Laketown is where the main issue is though. As of right now, the main use they have is resource generation and a forward outpost with a tower and a well. However, this isn't really a reason to choose it over the generic outpost which can be just as good of a forward base if you use the Stonemason upgrades to get the defensive buildplots. The units aren't useful beyond just having larger battalion sizes. The regular Ered Luin units are faster than the Laketown units, and the Erebor Axethrowers are better than the Dale Archers. Overall, the units just don't have a use in the dwarven factions as they currently stand. The same can be said of the heroes Bard and Brand. Both of them work around supporting the Laketown/Dale units, but if those units aren't bought then there isn't a reason to really get the heroes either. Brand's Inherited Black Arrow ability is decent but Erebor doesn't really need more high damage when they have heroes like Stonehelm. The same situation goes for Bard, except he deals an extra bonus to monsters and dragons which means that it would only be useful against Mordor (and Goblins in the future).

So now I've hopefully explained why the outposts need some reworking. The only question now is what to do with them which is what I want to ask here. One option is to nerf the Erebor axethrowers and to buff the Dale Archers, giving them more of a role in the faction. The same thing could work with the Ered Luin and Laketown archers. However, in both scenarios, it would still leave the pikemen and swordsmen without a use. The best case scenario would be the outposts to fill in something that the dwarves lack (like how Mirkwood offers tankier units to Lorien or Minas Morgul/Dol Guldur offers stronger orcs to replace the basic Mordor orcs) but the dwarves (especially Ered Luin) don't really lack anything that the outposts could then replace.

I'd like to hear what you have to say about this topic. What do you think should happen to the outposts?/

The_Necromancer0:
This isn't so much what I think is best for those two outposts but rather what I'd like to see.

First of all I would like to see the dale archers become semi-elites limited to a certain number. They would remain the same price but gain a good stat increase possibly alongside a battalion size decrease. They would come to compliment the Axethrowers' shorter range and allow the dwarves to hit enemy archers in the backline, since it is what it seems their ability are intended to help with. Perhaps their ability could even be changed to a temporary ability that makes them shoot black arrows for a short time in exchanged for reduced movement speed?

Much in that same fashion, Dale swordsmen would become the same semi-limited elites that excel at fighting other swordsmen thanks to their shield and skill and in addition can use their formation to catch up to the fleeing units if need be. Upgrading them with forged blades further improves that strength by allowing them to deal additional damage to swordsmen.

I don't have a specific concept in mind for the pikemen, can't just have them deal additional damage to pikemen that would be a weird synergy in my opinion. Following that if their price is reduced, Laketown soldiers could come in as cannon fodder and help with Ered Luin's army and have that as their unique edge.

AulëTheSmith:

--- Zitat von: The_Necromancer0 am  4. Dez 2018, 21:59 ---They would remain the same price but gain a good stat increase possibly alongside a battalion size decrease.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Totally agree with Necro on this point. I always think that the logic "weak units in large numbers" does not fit very well on Dale nor it does on Lake Town. Both the Towns have not a large army but rather few but well trained guards. What about reduce the number to 10 unit (with improved stats) and limit each type to three battallions at maximum?
I don't have new formations or new abilites in mind right now, but i would like to hear any new ideas that can make the two armies more useful as well as unique :)

Walküre:
I second the opinion that smaller battalions would suit the context better. Needless to say, rendering some of the exclusive units of both outposts (or all of them, as to say) elite would actually make said sub-factions a good deal more appealing. Balance and values aside, this might be a rather good start to move from, though I've not figured out how to keep the whole ensemble coherent yet. Logically, elite troops firstly exist as a prerogative of the main faction; the beating heart of the entire structure. So, one great challenge of whatever proposal would probably be to conceive a harmonious and detailed design that takes into consideration every single aspect we've hitherto hinted at.

A few possible guidelines that could help the debate develop:
1. What will be the general logic behind the concept? A quality-based one, or just a balance rearrangement?
2. If elite troops are to be included, they would necessarily need a set of distinctive features to dispose of.
3. How will all reconcile with the main Dwarven castle/camp? Dwarves already have a couple of unique tricks up their sleeve. Not only will suggestions have to fit well in the holistic portrait, but any distinct ability or mechanics should sport a satisfying degree of differentiation, too.

Anyway, I myself don't feel like proposing something specific, for now. I haven't pictured anything fixed or defined in my mind. I'll gladly let others take the initiative :)

Smeargollum:
Hello everybody!
Better late than never xD So I wil post here what I think about this topic. First of all I have to say I realy like the topic and the desire to talk about that dwarven outposts because I don't like two of them and the third I have never build so far 8-|

Dale and Lake Towen:
I (and many other multiplayer player) feel that they are very op because two of them on e.g. the map FoI2 give as much mony as the whole map. So I think that have to be nerved. But it shouldn't be that after that nobody build them. So I would say the units must get better. But I don't know how this could be managed because when that man of a towen who are the whole day fishing can fight better than a dwarve who is born for fighting it is not very logical [ugly]
Making them more quickly than dwarves only Erebor is effekted because Ered Luin is just quick. But even by Erebor it isn't a real reason to build that units of Dale. When you have some ideas how to make them more atracktive I would like to hear them!

Ered Mithrin:
I have never build that outpost so I don't know much about it but I will also write something to this. As OakenShield224 already said it is very expensive. I don't know how strong the units and the dragonslayer are so I can't say somethig to this 8-|
But I think it could also be a reason why it is so unatrctive that Iron Hills are so bad. Or better the other two dwarven factions are way better. And when in the multiplayer someone picks Iron Hills he wants to troll or he don't want to play an op faction like Erebor or ered Luin. So when this would be changed it might be that the Ered Mithrin outpost become more often used. :)

So I hope you understand my bad english [uglybunti]
Best regards Smeargollum

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