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Autor Thema: Thranduil  (Gelesen 15420 mal)

Tiberius Ogden

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Thranduil
« am: 21. Jan 2019, 19:41 »
Reworked Elvenking Thranduil


This Thranduil's rework leads to Grimbeorn's thread.


We think that the best Middle-earth warrior deserves more focused abilities for the time of War ... currently he provides common bonuses to units, can activate maggic bubble or summon peaceful feast. Not to mention that Galadriel is able to give him Palace guards that are probably hidden under her skirt.

So we stayed loyal to his portrayal in the movies - mass slayer and unit supporter and little reworked his skillset. Synergy between both roles, between Thranduil and his units, was something really important for us while crafting the new skillset.

Abilities:

Zitat
Level 1: Noble wrath - Thranduil unleashes his fury on the battlefield to protect Mirkwood. Attacks much faster and deals splash-type damage for a short period of time. All near allied units learn from Thranduil's formidable fighting skills and get +20% experience while fighting beside the king.


We think that it fits not only to mass slayer hero, but also to army leader - example of synergy between roles.
 
Zitat
Level 3: Mount/Dismount - Thranduil mounts/dismounts his mighty elk to ride/go on foot.


Such lovely elk deserves to be available earlier, than on the fifth level.

Zitat
Level 5: Sindarin Armour - Thranduil puts on his battle armour, which gives him +25% to defense. His silver armour inspires nearby units and grants them +35% defense against monsters, heroic, elite and siege units. (Passive ability)



It fits to 4.5. siege patch, too.

Zitat
Level 7: Feasts of Mirkwood - Thranduil gives orders to begin a special feast which offers the best vine from Dorwinion. The feast generates resources, raises the command points by 50, reveals stealth units and slowly regenerates units and their abilities. If enemies get very near the feast, Elves will vanish immediately. The feast may only be summoned once at the same time.


Although we think that it fits into the spellbook (but Lorien's spellbook is currently overcrowded), we still wanted to keep such unique ability, even reworked it in order to fit more to Lorien gameplay.

Zitat
Level 10: Royal Counterattack - Thranduil summons a shield wall of two rows of Palace Guards around him, which starts moving against enemies and attacking them. All allied units near Palace Guards, including the Elvenking, get +50% attack.


We moved famous ability to ultimate spot and added second row, because additional troops trough the gift seem strange. Otherwise it looks like that Galadriel has second row of troops under her skirt ...

You can see wonderful synergy between Thranduil and his troops. He fights for them and inspires them, and they fight for their king.


Thranduil can receive upgrade "Silver gem" through Gifts of Lorien.



What is problematic and what we removed completely:

Zitat
Level 3: Arcane Shield - Thranduil surrounds himself in a magical barrier which absorbs incoming damage. The shield will be depleted after 10 hits and then automatically regenerated after 60 seconds. (Passive ability)


Definitely unique ability, fits for tank hero, but not for Woodland king Thranduil. Such magic exceeds even Maiar - for instance battle mage Gandalf. Also inspiration from Warcraft is obvious.
Maybe it would work for Nordor Glorfindel, but he already has similar and more lore-friendly tank abilities.
So we want to keep it that's why we suggest to move it to CaH. Fans of Elf lord class will have at least something really unique and well known.


We hope that you enjoyed reading and we are looking forward to debate with you about Edain's Thranduil!  xD

P.S. ...



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« Letzte Änderung: 27. Feb 2019, 15:18 von Tiberius Ogden »

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #1 am: 22. Jan 2019, 01:56 »
I was about to address similar issues in your previous Mirkwood topic, but this one now looks the most appropriate for such type of feedback.

First of all, let us start with the concept:
Personally, I like every single suggestion, and I totally understand why, in your opinion, two of the current abilities need to slip in lower slots, being therefore available earlier. Really, there is not much to add to your work. On a literary, lore-based perspective, I fancy how his level-7 ability references his battle against the evils of the North. If I'm not mistaken, the Woodland King was well alive in the First Age, as he was (very likely) a Sindarin prince at the court of Elwë, in Doriath. Very significant connection ;)

Nevertheless, I would like to point out something, which I've been pretty fixated on for quite a long time. It's a kind of atavistic issue that keeps me awake at night. In front of it, changes on abilities or strategy move to the background of the holistic portrait. The problem I have with him is probably caused by an ill combination of his skills, but not solely because of his current power set. It's quite simple: I just don't like him, as a hero.

It's the same with Lothlórien's current scout heroes. I don't like him. He looks slow, clumsy and sluggish. He should be as skilled as Elrond or Celeborn. A veritable master-swordsman, versed in the secrets of all blades. Agile, rapid and lethal, just as he swings his sword in DOS. Plus, he's a natural-born leader, since he rules his realm with an iron fist and in all occasions defended the borders against any sort of menace. Whenever I play with him, I see very little of a king, neither of a deadly warrior.
I get that much energy has been poured into his design. That's apparent, given the array of unique features. Only, uniqueness cannot always make up for flaws, or automatically transform a hero in a legend. I perceive it clearly: there seems to be something that doesn't work.

I might be completely misled, but I blame his current animation at large. It may have been the most viable choice, yet at what cost? The two aforementioned Elven sires are utterly amazing; though assigned to different roles, they do splendidly in battle. On the other side, I can barely move Thranduil around, without having the chance to prove his value. Again, we're talking about different roles and functions, but the comparison with his two Elven fellows is quite unforgiving, if you ask me.
I hope there will be room for a possible (needed) overhaul; not so much dissimilar to what has lately befallen our White Lady.



Concerning the last proposed ability, what doesn't seem to fully convince me is the fact that Palace Guards happen to be everywhere in the game. Theoretically, they should embody an imposing elite unit, and this they do beautifully. No complaints, except that the player may easily recruit battalions upon battalions of them. There's no limit. Wherefore, are we really sure that a shield wall (made entirely of such unit) could be enough unique for an ultimate feature? I believe there might be some differentiation problematics, there.

Additionally, Aragorn's own phantom wall already brings in the Mod an akin concept, even though its main purpose differs substantially with that of Palace Guards. I like the idea nonetheless, as it should explore his commander-like side, and we know that the Woodland King wages war only in very rare situations, when the own safety of the woods is in peril.

Said that, that's where the lancers from the Hobbit come to the rescue!
What about allowing him to temporarily summon a host of those lancers, ordered in a very tight, strict formation, so to form a quasi-impenetrable wall. This is shown in the extended edition of BOTFA.
It should create a vast and long wall of pikes and shield, not for his personal protection, but for the sake of your very army. It can either be stationary or movable, albeit very slow. Also, it would sort of resemble the testudo formation of Roman legions, symbolising Elven warfare tradition and severe discipline, against lesser adversaries.



(From 4:04)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=TpsFWBzDHkk

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #2 am: 22. Jan 2019, 11:22 »
I personally don't think that Tranduils dress doesn't work that well with his fighting abilities.
So when you recruit him, he does take a staff and two swords with him, got an ability to lead his troops into battle, but he doesn't take an armor with him?
Doesn't really suit him in my opinion. So if we want him to be that way, that he is someone who stays with his troops out of battle as long as he can, he should have the party tent as his first ability.
Maybe it would suit more if Galadriels Gifts would make the party much bigger, because she gives better wine and Lorien elves come to join the party. But armor is okay too.

Leadership would come then on lvl 3, Elk maybe together with his armor on lvl 5, Wrath of the Elvenking lvl 7.
I like the rest of your suggestions, although I must agree with Walküre about the shield wall.

Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #3 am: 22. Jan 2019, 13:09 »
I just don't like him, as a hero.
It's the same with Lothlórien's current scout heroes.

Well, you're not alone ... Quite many of us ... xD

I get that much energy has been poured into his design. That's apparent, given the array of unique features. Only, uniqueness cannot always make up for flaws, or automatically transform a hero in a legend. I perceive it clearly: there seems to be something that doesn't work.

That's because he was created before BOTFA came out ... but even if we completely try to ignore last Hobbit movie, and Thranduil's deadly swords, we still would have problem with him, cause he has forced to tank role, which doesn't fit him ... but also the rest of his skillset is quite mixed.
He looks like "All in one" hero, you know ... bubble shield ... feast ... unit support ... not too focused abilities.

He should be as skilled as Elrond or Celeborn. A veritable master-swordsman, versed in the secrets of all blades. Agile, rapid and lethal, just as he swings his sword in DOS. Plus, he's a natural-born leader, since he rules his realm with an iron fist and in all occasions defended the borders against any sort of menace. Whenever I play with him, I see very little of a king, neither of a deadly warrior.

It's without doubt. Don't forget what movie makers told us: "If Galadriel is the most powerful being in the Middle-earth during the time of Hobbit, then Thranduil is definitely the most badass warrior in the Middle-earth during that period."

He should be killing machine ... and normally when you see a guy with two swords on the battlefield ... you immediately realise that you and all of your troops will have serious problems ...  8-)
But still needs unit support aspect, as he is a noble king and protector of his realm.

So the role of mass slayer for him is obvious (with some unit support aspects) ...  :)

I've reworked some of his abilities which fit to mass slayer above ...

What about allowing him to temporarily summon a host of those lancers, ordered in a very tight, strict formation, so to form a quasi-impenetrable wall. This is shown in the extended edition of BOTFA.
It should create a vast and long wall of pikes and shield, not for his personal protection, but for the sake of your very army. It can either be stationary or movable, albeit very slow. Also, it would sort of resemble the testudo formation of Roman legions, symbolising Elven warfare tradition and severe discipline, against lesser adversaries.


(From 4:04)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=TpsFWBzDHkk

Why so limited and complicated?
Palace guards are special unit in the movies, it's pretty clear ... troops who protect their king and his halls.
So in order to make them unique, they can stay in Thranduil's skillset plus be limited heroic unit.


It means that we need regular lancers for Mirkwood, who fit to overall Mirkwood design and correspond to other units.


And solution is extremely simple - add spears instead of swords/bows to Mirkwood troops and you've created the new unit!  xD
« Letzte Änderung: 10. Feb 2019, 01:58 von Tiberius Ogden »

Julio229

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #4 am: 22. Jan 2019, 13:52 »
Edit: After thinking about it and seeing the proposed Grimbeorn changes (which I feel are a nerf on him), and the proposed gift of Lórien that Thranduil would get, I'm not sure that I agree with this proposal anymore. While I still think Thranduil feels a bit unfocused, I'm not so sure now about the details of the proposal, so I can't really say I'm in favour of it right now.

I really like this Thranduil rework. He is not a bad hero currently in my opinion, but he did feel a bit unfocused and this would certainly go a long way to make him be on the Celeborn or Elrond level of greatness he deserves!

About the Palace Guards, I feel like they could be reduced to a heroic unit, letting the unused Mirkwood Pikes take their place as a regular unit. It would make Thranduil's (now) level 10 more impactful than them being a regular unit as they are now (which also poses the problem of Lothlórien being too good against Cavalry, which are their main "weakness" IIRC), so maybe moving them to an Heroic unit and making regular Mirkwood Pikes be part of the faction (though of course this could be of no help to the problem posed before), lowering the effect of such a good unit as the Palace Guards are, could be a good effect.

I definitely think the Palace Guards work better on Thranduil's ability than the Pikes, unless the ability was to be lower than level 10, or even, one of the lines could be Pikes and the other one Palace Guards :P (though it being Palace Guards only could work towards the ability's "impact" and effectiveness)

About Grimbeorn, he'd definitely make a good fit to be Lórien's tank hero, however I can't speak much about him because he is one of the heroes I use the less in Edain (not by his fault, I don't usually go for Beornings), but I'll probably try to use him more so I can contribute to that side of the discussion!

« Letzte Änderung: 9. Feb 2019, 17:35 von Julio229 »


Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #5 am: 22. Jan 2019, 14:10 »
I really like this Thranduil rework.

Thanks for feedback! I've already implemented quite a lot of your thoughts in the edited comment of mine above!  xD
I am still editing something ...  Professional deformation  :P ...

Maybe it would suit more if Galadriels Gifts would make the party much bigger, because she gives better wine and Lorien elves come to join the party. But armor is okay too.

Nice one! I've already thought about it.
Exactly, armor is fine, but ...

Zitat
* Orophin and Rumil: Elven armor that drastically increases their defenses.
* Haldir: Blessed Arrow with more damage and a larger radius than Radiant Arrow
* Celeborn: Lordly armor that increases defences and damage
* Thranduil: Royal armor and an additional row of Palace Guards for his shield wall
* Legolas: Bow of the Galadhrim that increases damage of Hawk Strike and Arrow Wind

 ... not so unique, many heroes can receive armour ... it seems like Galadriel is walking armory. Armour for her people fits ... but for Thranduil? It looks like Thranduil doesn't have money for buying royal armour ... poor forest guy ...  :P

Also your idea how to improve feast isn't bad, but we have to take into account that gifts of Lorien should be directly linked to hero.

So ...


So Thranduil would receive his armour normally on level five - together with ability "Protector of Woodland realm" which will be probably passive ...

« Letzte Änderung: 24. Jan 2019, 01:44 von Tiberius Ogden »

Only True Witchking

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #6 am: 22. Jan 2019, 16:26 »

I have to say, I am quite happy about the plans to rework Thranduil, because I very much dislike his current skillset.
I personally of course, would much rather look to the books than to the films, but since Edain in general is getting continously closer to the movies, while straing from the books, I believe that Thranduil is one of the characters who should stay the most with the movies.
He is portrayed in a very cool way I think, and is my favourite character from BOTFA - though that's not saying much.
Visually, he of course is almost perfect, and his character is at least believable for the most part.

What I'm not a fan of, is the skillset that is currently proposed, mainly because of two abilities:
Wrath of Elvenking - Thranduil fought many times with the great beasts from the North. Temporarily gains +75% attack bonus against Monsters, heroic and elite units, can't be knocked down and attacks much faster for short period of time.
Even when ignoring the lore aspect of the first sentence, I don't think this ability is fitting for a mass-slayer. Especially monsters, but also heroic and elite units normally don't appear in great numbers.
Furthermore, Mirkwood and Lorien can already very easily deal with single entities: They have a lot of very good archers, and of course they also have Legolas. And Legolas, eventhough his "Hawkstrike" ability went from 'OP' to 'useless', is still very efficient against not only heroes, but specificially monsters.

So in my personal opinion, "Wrath of the Elvenking" should rather give a bonus similar to this: Thranduil attacks faster and has splash damage for a short period of time.

Also, since I am already talking about Legolas, we shouldn't forget that the prince of Mirkwood already has mass-slayer capabilities due to his insane firing speed and his lvl 10 ability.

The second Thranduil ability I don't like very much is the moving shield wall, I'd still keep the stationary one in some form or another (or just get rid of it completely, and replace it with something else, like an attack order; in the extended movie he's commanding the volleys of arrows against the dwarves and later the orcs: "Leithio!").

Also, his shield wall and leadership seem a bit weak, but then again, it's Edain 4.
I know why I still have the hero submod for 3.8.1 on my laptop.  8-)

But it's good that someone has a plan how to get rid of the chewing gum bubble.

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #7 am: 22. Jan 2019, 17:18 »
It seems that the topic is quite spiralling. Not out of control, though, but rather in the right direction :)
Note aside, it also appears to be the day of valorous Elven lords. From one lord to the other. May it be the time when mistakes will be corrected and flaws fixed.

Concerning the major overhaul, I pretty much agree with everything Tiberius and Julio have said on the matter. The issue does lie in his current (mal-appointed) role. It's clear that it doesn't fit him so well. The idea of correcting it therefore sounds very good. In addition, I see the point regarding Palace Guards: if we want them to be really elite, in the very sense of the word, they should necessarily be gone from the regular outpost and instead be made a special feature of the Woodland King. This makes so much sense, now. Those guards have the supreme, imperative task of caring about the monarch's own well-being. Spawning them as if there were no tomorrow negates their particular nature.
Besides, models of those lancers already exist, if I remember correctly. Ready to be used.

So Thranduil would receive his armour normally on level five - together with ability "Protector of Woodland realm" which will be probably passive ...

I'm fine with a passive ability that grants him his renowned silver armour. I think the current mechanics are one of those inconsistencies that the next patch should (must) do without, like Narya in the hands of Círdan, and so on. Also, I remember your old comment on ModDB: you're right, the Lady is not a walking armoury :D



I'm certain that the general concept will be polished for the better, until it's properly finalised. However, I believe we have another problematic to tackle, and I have anticipated it in my previous reply. What about his controversial animation?

He sports the same animation of Éowyn, if I'm not wrong, which slows his movements down and hampers his attack. We've already concurred that his noble profile corresponds to that of a deadly hero. Hence, given the radical change of skills and role, shouldn't we also seize the opportunity and find another suitable animation? I know that his stance system does not permit him to choose from a wide variety of possibilities, but I'm sure it's worth the try. Without proper movements, any big proposal is more or less halved in effectiveness.

Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #8 am: 22. Jan 2019, 17:21 »
"Wrath of the Elvenking" should rather give a bonus similar to this: Thranduil attacks faster and has splash damage for a short period of time.

I was thinking about splash damage, but then I realized that he deals splash damage through the aggresive stance:
Zitat
Double Sword Stance (aggressive stance) - Thrandul wields two swords and deals slight area damage. Enemies are attacked when sighted.

But with the Wrath of Elvenking Thranduil can affect larger area, why not. Ok, I'll edit my post. I'll keep "monster issue" fow now, because probably that skill will be on level 7. We will see.

moving shield wall, I'd still keep the stationary one in some form or another (or just get rid of it completely, and replace it with something else, like an attack order; in the extended movie he's commanding the volleys of arrows against the dwarves and later the orcs: "Leithio!").

I don't want to him command archers, it's up to Legolas who can train them. Summon of special unit quite fits to him, but I'm still thinking how to make last ability stronger and keep mass slayer - unit supporter aspects ...  8-|

Also, his shield wall and leadership seem a bit weak, but then again, it's Edain 4.

I am quite careful. He costs 2 400 (so not 3 000 like faction leaders) and he is outpost hero. But I'll see.

But it's good that someone has a plan how to get rid of the chewing gum bubble.

You got us! xD ...

Besides, models of those lancers already exist, if I remember correctly. Ready to be used.

So what are we talking about?  :P

He sports the same animation of Éowyn, if I'm not wrong, which slows his movements down and hampers his attack. We've already concurred that his noble profile corresponds to that of a deadly hero. Hence, given the radical change of skills and role, shouldn't we also seize the opportunity and find another suitable animation? I know that his stance system does not permit him to choose from a wide variety of possibilities, but I'm sure it's worth the try.

I completely agree. Some animation worthy of agile elf and badass warrior, opposite to slow king.  8-|
« Letzte Änderung: 22. Jan 2019, 18:02 von Tiberius Ogden »

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #9 am: 24. Jan 2019, 01:17 »
This is the rework I did not know I needed until it was posted. I've always found Thranduil fine but this rework is brilliant. The bubble has always bothered me too, however, I quite like the current effect of Galadriel's gift as I see it being more unique then a simple damage buff. But, it is true that it does not make much sense lorewise, why would a gift from galadriel suddenly push Thranduil to don his armor and command additional troops.

Now, this is a bit pulled by the hairs but here I go, we know Galadriel is a quite a powerful enchantress right? What if Thranduil was now recruited in his armor straight from the start and casting gifts of galadriel on him would grant him something similar to his old bubble shield, some form of increased armor but more subtle. In addition, it would make sense for a gift from Galadriel affecting a troop summoning ability to add Lorien troops to the mix. Lorien isn't exactly known for its tanky/beefy units but perhaps they could be reinforced with galadhrim in the inner circle, more apt to tear down foes to get through the pike wall.
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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #10 am: 24. Jan 2019, 14:14 »
Since the topic is obviously intertwined with Gifts suggestions and mass-slayer skills, I assume that the proposed level-5 ability would thereby change, turning into a passive one. It may still grant additional defence against monsters (though lower than the shown values) and a splash-type attack (very impactful in combat). What's new is that Thranduil shall wear the silver armour from the Hobbit we all adore :)

Furthermore, as indicated in the Galadriel thread, her gem will bless him with the current magical bubble.

P.S. If it's going to be passive, the ability might need another title. Something digging into his story as a Sindarin prince and wise Elven general.

Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #11 am: 24. Jan 2019, 18:01 »
Hey guys!

Latest rework of Thranduil's skillset!

Above ... ;)

I still keep his Mass slayer role because we want to be loyal his movie portrayal, and move tank role to Grimbeorn, whose nature can sustain heavy damage (and I'm still working on him), but we also have to take into account that already two heroes have or will have mass slayer aspect.
Legolas and Galadriel. I don't think that Legolas is pure mass slayer, his whole skillset is inadequate for that role, rather he is (at least for me) agile hero with mass slayer aspect. Also ranged mass slayer sounds quite strange, which leads me to Galadriel - some people consider her mass slayer due to her AoE. But we shouldn't forget that her primary attack is effective only against unarmoured regular units, but against monsters, elite, heroic units, siege units etc. is pretty useless. In the upcoming patch will have "White lady banishment" ability but this is only one ability, but yes, we can also say that she has mass slayer aspect.
So in total two heroes (if we want to rework Grimbeorn).
But what Lorien completely lacks is unit supporter. There is only Haldir with one or two unit support abilities and of course, current Thranduil who is also forced to be tank.
So as you can see I stressed his supportive abilities, he is king after all, but connect them with mass slayer aspects.
« Letzte Änderung: 7. Feb 2019, 17:23 von Tiberius Ogden »

Only True Witchking

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #12 am: 7. Feb 2019, 15:12 »
I'm in favour of the current proposal for the Thranduil rework.
It combines two very different roles, and it does that very good.
So if you want to start a list, you can write my name down.

Or should I rather say: Dafür? ;)

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Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #13 am: 7. Feb 2019, 17:22 »
Would be great if someone would create picture of Thranduil's armor for level five. xD

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #14 am: 7. Feb 2019, 17:34 »
Would be great if someone would create picture of Thranduil's armor for level five. xD

I will :)

Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #15 am: 8. Feb 2019, 16:47 »
Just one argument to not static but moveable Thrandul's ultimate ability:

Zitat
Level 10: Royal Counterattack - Thranduil summons a shield wall of two rows of Palace Guards around him who start moving against enemies and attack them. All allied units near to Palace Guards, including Elvenking, get +50% attack.

Not only that huorns are static:

Zitat
Revenge of the Huorns

Summons a circle of Huorns that entrap and attack enemies within.

But also this Aragorn's ability is pure copy of Thranduil's shield wall:

Zitat
Level 10: Demand of the King - Aragorn summons a crowd of Oathbreakers in a circle around himself. Enemies can't pass through the Dead without suffering heavy damage.

That's why I want Palace Guards to be more offensive, slowly moving towards enemy troops and attacking masses, and not only staying in one place defending Elvenking. Because current execution fits to tank and not to mass slayer.



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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #16 am: 8. Feb 2019, 19:07 »
Let me present thee, concept-maker, the new level-5 icon pertaining to the Woodland King :)



Zitat
THRANDUIL

Level 1: Noble Wrath - Thranduil unleashes his fury on the battlefield to protect Mirkwood. Attacks much faster and deals splash-type damage for a short period of time. All near allied units learn from Thranduil's formidable fighting skills and get +20% experience while fighting beside the king.

Level 3: Mount/Dismount - Thranduil mounts/dismounts his mighty elk to ride/go on foot.

Level 5: Sindarin Armour - Thranduil puts on his battle armour, which gives him +25% armour. His silver armour inspires nearby units and grants them +35% attack against monsters, heroic, elite and siege units. (Passive ability)

Level 7: Feasts of Mirkwood - Thranduil gives orders to begin a special feast which offers the best vine from Dorwinion. The feast generates resources, raises the command points by 50, reveals stealth units and slowly regenerates units and their abilities. If enemies get very near the feast, Elves will vanish immediately. The feast may only be summoned once at the same time.

Level 10: Royal Counterattack - Thranduil summons a shield wall of two rows of Palace Guards around him, which starts moving against enemies and attacking them. All allied units near Palace Guards, including the Elvenking, get +50% attack.


Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #17 am: 9. Feb 2019, 00:33 »
Let me present thee, concept-maker, the new level-5 icon pertaining to the Woodland King :)



It's wonderful, as usual. :)

I'm really glad, we'll see where the next debates will lead us, but even now I'm very satisfied with proposed Thranduil's concept, because it'll solve at least two issues.

1) Personal feeling - many fans of the best Middle-earth warrior just don't like him, because his skillset is unfocused, his tank role forced, and Thranduil is overall pretty boring and and he can never meet movie expectations.
We all know where is the problem - he was crafted before BOTFA was released.

2) Roles of heroes in Lothlorien - woodland faction has the most heroes in the game (and also many units), but none of them is clear unit supporter. There is only Haldir with one or two clear unit support abilities, as well as current Thranduil, who is primarily tank. That is quite inadequate.
Yes, he is formidable warrior, but also the only elven king during the Third age in the Middle-earth and protector of woodland realm. So make from Thranduil ultimate unit supporter, but still keep mass slayer aspect from the movies, were obvious choices.


« Letzte Änderung: 9. Feb 2019, 03:43 von Tiberius Ogden »

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #18 am: 9. Feb 2019, 14:50 »
It seems we're almost done with the formulation of all positive arguments and with the holistic conception of his in-game design. Now, near the end of the journey, is still an obstacle to surmount: what about his animation?

His current animation is one of the principal reasons why his performance comes off as disappointing and not impactful enough. He's clearly counted among the most skilled swordsmen of Middle-earth. A sensational warrior, and this the Hobbit trilogy shows very clearly. In our case, if we are to make him a lethal mass-slayer, he just needs movements that work accordingly and facilitate his goal: massacring enemy units.

Well, which is the animation set that could avail our purposes, then? We have in the game a plethora of incredibly fitting Elf-styled moves. However, we should not forget that his unique three-weapon stance system requires certain gestures and postures, so he may fight properly. Do you have any idea about alternative replacements? I haven't wrapped my head around the issue yet. I think this passage of the debate has equal priority. As Tiberius wrote, Thranduil's concept is relatively old (and quite dated, at this point); it suffers from both a wrongly appointed role and some sluggish animations. If we long to change him for the better, we must tackle this problematic, too.

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #19 am: 9. Feb 2019, 17:55 »
I like the ideas about this concept. One thing only:

Zitat
Level 1: Noble Wrath - Thranduil unleashes his fury on the battlefield to protect Mirkwood. Attacks much faster and deals splash-type damage for a short period of time. All near allied units learn from Thranduil's formidable fighting skills and get +20% experience while fighting beside the king.

Splash damage is it not redundand with the current stance system? i mean, you can just get area-of-effect damage with double blade stance.
Agree with you that the animation it's a problem.

Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #20 am: 9. Feb 2019, 18:06 »
Splash damage is it not redundand with the current stance system? i mean, you can just get area-of-effect damage with double blade stance.

Zitat
Double Sword Stance (aggressive stance) - Thrandul wields two swords and deals slight area damage. Enemies are attacked when sighted.

Yeah, but it only does "slight AoE". Splash damage would affect everything around him plus his attack would be much faster - wrathful mode if you want - during that Thranduil shows his amazing fighting skills to his soldiers.

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #21 am: 10. Feb 2019, 23:34 »
You've made quite a lot of progress, I still need to catch up with the rest of the great Lorien Hero Overhaul. I've had time to maul over the proposal and with the recent change to the Gift of Galadriel I can definitely say that I support this proposal. As for the animation, it is a tricky one we need a single handed attack animation which can also support a staff without looking awkward. Quite a daunting task, I'll try to think about it over the week to see if I can figure out anything.
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AulëTheSmith

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #22 am: 10. Feb 2019, 23:55 »
Splash damage is it not redundand with the current stance system? i mean, you can just get area-of-effect damage with double blade stance.

Zitat
Double Sword Stance (aggressive stance) - Thrandul wields two swords and deals slight area damage. Enemies are attacked when sighted.

Yeah, but it only does "slight AoE". Splash damage would affect everything around him plus his attack would be much faster - wrathful mode if you want - during that Thranduil shows his amazing fighting skills to his soldiers.

We can do even better in my opinion, in order to differentiate and even more underline the ability as millenarian swordman. During the effect of noble wrath:

Sword and staff (Difensive stance): the area of knock back is increased.
Single sword (normal stance): the Elven king gets +25% of melee attack (single damage, no aoe)
Double sword (aggressive stance): area of effect is increased.

In normal stance he will have some more chance to face strong heroes or monster, in aggressive stance you can easily slay tons of enemy, while in defensive stance you will be able to keep the enemy at bay with knock back (especially useful if Thrandul is wounded and surrounded by many enemies).
It's a good way to underline is versatile character as very skilled warrior, as you want to achieve with this overhaul  :)
In this way, you will not make the unique stance sistem flat (it would be weird if
you can get the same splash damage in the same way for all the three system, you'll nullify the uniqueness of the system).
By the way, count me as in favour of course  8-)



Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #23 am: 11. Feb 2019, 00:06 »
Sword and staff (Difensive stance): the area of knock back is increased.
Single sword (normal stance): the eleven king gets +25% of melee attack (single damage, no aoe)
Double sword (aggressive stance): area of effect is increased.

I thought about increased AoE for all stances ...
but I also thought about different "fast effects" for all stances ...  xD ... like your suggestion.

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #24 am: 26. Feb 2019, 13:24 »
I am glad you gave him his armor at Level 5 and the magic shield through Galadriels gifts. Last one is a great idea and the first one the main point I wanted to see. So same as "TheOnlyTrueWitchking" I am for your suggestion.

Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #25 am: 27. Feb 2019, 04:52 »
I am glad you gave him his armor at Level 5 and the magic shield through Galadriels gifts.

Yes, it's not only obvious, but also natural solution which corresponds with many other heores in the game and also provides option how to give Thranduil some really unique and acceptable gift.

the first one the main point I wanted to see

It's my favourite new skill in his skillset, which explores Thranduil's fighting skills but also highlights his new ultimate unit support role that Lothlorien desperately needs.

We can say that his whole rework fills the gap in the Edain roles but still reflects our thoughts and hopes that he must be that formidable warrior from the movie. 8-)

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #26 am: 27. Feb 2019, 15:13 »
As someone already said: i didn't think Thranduil needed an overhaul before i read this. This is amazing concept for Thranduil, what a truly Elven king deserves. Well done. I'm in favor of this. Still I find the picture of Noble Wrath not quite good. It would be better if the pic resembled Thranduil fighting. Not an easy task, i know, but still.....

Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #27 am: 27. Feb 2019, 16:58 »
As someone already said: i didn't think Thranduil needed an overhaul before i read this. This is amazing concept for Thranduil, what a truly Elven king deserves. Well done.

Because we've got used to him. Well not me, or Walk, or many others. Cause we remember that day, when Thranduil was announced on Moddb. Immediately followed backlash from the fans that he is not like in the movies, neither visually nor his skillset. The truth is that he was like in the movies - like in the first two Hobbit movies. Edain team just was faster and crafted him before Botfa came out. And it was the main problem.

Then we at least invented his stances - first official idea from the Edain international community which was fully implemented, by the way - but it didn't help either.

Then ET crafted his armour, which was implemented via gift, well, it was right move to the third movie, but I also stated the famous line, which is still relevant these days - that Galadriel is not walking armory and that we should reconsider the way how Thranduil can get the armour in order to make gifts more unique.

Many fans critized his tank role ... "Tank, why? he is mass slayer ... tell me which abilities he has as a tank?'" and response from the ET, that "he has magic shield", really didn't help. xD

And time has passed and here we go again. Personally I would like to see Thranduil as a mass slayer as well. Problem is that such aspect is already present in the faction, at least two or three heroes have AoE abilities. What we can't find in woodland faction is standard unit supporter, and as a king should be the really great unit supporter with strong leadership.
But it doesn't mean that we can't implement mass slayer aspect in some of his unit support abilities. ;)
Synergy between the roles, between Thranduil and his units.

I find the picture of Noble Wrath not quite good. It would be better if the pic resembled Thranduil fighting. Not an easy task, i know, but still.....

I'm sure that Walk will think about that, but it's not a priority. I've just recyclated current pic which quite fits - Thranduil looks noble there.
« Letzte Änderung: 27. Feb 2019, 22:28 von Tiberius Ogden »

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #28 am: 27. Feb 2019, 17:41 »
I think the current icon is well suitable for its relative ability. Being a level-1 feature, when Thranduil is still clothed in kingly robes, it would be unwise to utilise images showing him armoured and fighting.

If anything, I might craft a new icon for his ultimate skill. I'll try to pull something out of my magic hat ;)

Besides, a general question: has someone managed to find a new set of animations, as good as a decent replacement for his present, sluggish movements? Perhaps, this is the last major hurdle we must overcome.

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #29 am: 27. Feb 2019, 17:51 »
I’ve mainly been avoiding this thread and the Grimbeorn thread for a while, but I feel like I should respond to the discussions since I do have a lot to say on the topic. I’ll talk about both here since the proposals are linked. Overall, while I like some ideas of the proposals, I don’t really agree with them. I’ll go through the in-depth reasons why.

Thranduil first. From what I can tell, the proposal is trying to make him into more of a mass slayer but mainly a unit supporter. I don’t really see how the proposal is making him a mass slayer though beyond giving him a temporary AOE effect (even though he already has a permanent AOE effect). I like the idea of Royal Counterattack since it does differentiate from Aragorn’s skill, but I’m not sure it counts as a mass slaying skill (it is basically a summon after all). I’m not really convinced by the supportive changes either to be honest. The current armour leadership has been removed and the attack bonus has been moved onto his level 10 (although buffed). He’s also had a small experience boost and a passive boost against elites/monsters etc. It seems a bit of a nerf from what his current supporting aspect is, and also a bit unnecessary (does Lorien really need ways of dealing with monsters and elites when they have the best archers in the game as well as very good pikes?). In addition, the current leadership suits Thranduil’s character a lot better. In the lore, he and his kingdom were always reclusive, acting defensively to protect their borders from spiders and orcs. It was only in times of need that Thranduil sent his armies to attack (e.g. at the Battle of Five Armies and the Battle of Dol Guldur). In the Hobbit book, even though he wanted his share of the treasure, he was reluctant to start a full war for gold, only going to battle when Dain’s armies arrived. I feel that the unit supportive aspect of this proposal is too aggressive to fit with Thranduil’s character and mindset. In addition, I’m not sure that he’d go on to lead the other units of the faction, considering how isolationist he was. While I did like the Arcane Shield, I don’t really mind it being replaced if the replacement is good (which I believe the Gift is now after a bit of convincing). As for the animations issue, if a good enough set can be found which portrays his grace in battle well, then I’d support that change.

Grimbeorn now. I’ll go through each of his abilities individually to say what I think about them. The only change I can see for the form switch is the removal of the extra building damage when in human form which is a little bit of a nerf but not too bad, I suppose. Ferocious Strike has had the “heavy damage” removed which again seems like a bit of a nerf. I like the Deadly Jump (even if it does just seem like another Gimli leap of which there are 3 in the mod currently). Survival Instinct is the same as currently so that’s fine. With Beorn’s Bees, you’ve said that they’d damage enemies when he’s under attack. That seems sort of redundant to me since, if you’re in the situation where you’d use that ability, he’d already be the in the thick of battle and therefore be getting attacked anyway. As for Power of the Wilderness, the main changes I can see are that the +100% damage has been replaced by being immune to lances and gaining extra armour, which is a decent trade.

Overall, while I’m not really opposed to any of the changes (other than Thranduil going from a defensive hero to an offensive hero via his support abilities), they mostly seem unnecessary for me to be honest. Current Thranduil is one of the heroes I pretty much always get in Lorien matches (along with Galadriel and Haldir) for how useful he is in game, and this proposal doesn’t really seem needed if that makes sense, at least compared to other aspects of the mod. As for Grimbeorn, I’ll admit that I don’t really use him that much in games, but I’m not really sure that this proposal would change how I use him that much. It just seems like a minor nerf.
« Letzte Änderung: 27. Feb 2019, 21:21 von OakenShield224 »

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #30 am: 27. Feb 2019, 21:30 »
I think the current icon is well suitable for its relative ability. Being a level-1 feature, when Thranduil is still clothed in kingly robes, it would be unwise to utilise images showing him armoured and fighting.

If anything, I might craft a new icon for his ultimate skill. I'll try to pull something out of my magic hat ;)

Besides, a general question: has someone managed to find a new set of animations, as good as a decent replacement for his present, sluggish movements? Perhaps, this is the last major hurdle we must overcome.
Then perhaps this image. Here he looks noble and valar like.

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #31 am: 27. Feb 2019, 22:39 »
Great picture, but I consider it quite abstract for the purpose. I mean, we already have an icon of Thranduil portraying him in a front, direct and portrait-like pose. Having two similar pictures would be a bit redundant. The current throne depiction is slightly more situational for my likings :)

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #32 am: 28. Feb 2019, 00:15 »
I do see your point but the reason for changing the pic in the first place is because we are changing the ability completely. In my opinion it doesn't deserve to be replaced by another ability picture (Arcane Shield in this case). I mean Elrond has the same situation with the armor and the restoration power (the icons are very similar, one centered at his face, the other - chest). 
Then again i found such image, quite similar to the one you Walk already had:

Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #33 am: 28. Feb 2019, 00:23 »
Proposed picture for noble wrath fits, because you can see some noble move from Thranduil ... your pictures, on the other hand, are static.

You made great joke by the way - current picture of arcane shield (which I used for noble wrath) doesn't even fit for arcane shield, because arcane shield doesn't fit either. :P

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #34 am: 28. Feb 2019, 00:43 »
Noble move. I mean, what exactly is he doing in this picture that makes it so unique? Turning around?  Throwing away his cloak? That's not an argument.
Anyway i think i'm not able to find a suitable pic for this one so i won't complain amymore. If all else fails we could use the closeup of his crown.

steadii

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #35 am: 28. Dez 2020, 15:06 »
I think that Thranduil as tank is forced. He is father of Legolas and in time of Hobbit the best warrior in Middle-earth. He was created before Botfa and because of that the game feeling while playing with him is not so good. Instead of agile mass slayer we have slow tank. I think that make him mass slayer with unit support aspect (because of king) is great idea. And i always thought that Grimbeorn would be perfect tank - he is old, strong and beornings were tortured by orcs so they can sustain a lot damage. Switching their roles would solve the problem with roles in Lorien.

Also I am not sure about that arcane shield, Thranduil is not magician.
« Letzte Änderung: 28. Dez 2020, 15:11 von steadii »