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Autor Thema: Thranduil  (Gelesen 15435 mal)

Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #15 am: 8. Feb 2019, 16:47 »
Just one argument to not static but moveable Thrandul's ultimate ability:

Zitat
Level 10: Royal Counterattack - Thranduil summons a shield wall of two rows of Palace Guards around him who start moving against enemies and attack them. All allied units near to Palace Guards, including Elvenking, get +50% attack.

Not only that huorns are static:

Zitat
Revenge of the Huorns

Summons a circle of Huorns that entrap and attack enemies within.

But also this Aragorn's ability is pure copy of Thranduil's shield wall:

Zitat
Level 10: Demand of the King - Aragorn summons a crowd of Oathbreakers in a circle around himself. Enemies can't pass through the Dead without suffering heavy damage.

That's why I want Palace Guards to be more offensive, slowly moving towards enemy troops and attacking masses, and not only staying in one place defending Elvenking. Because current execution fits to tank and not to mass slayer.



Walküre

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #16 am: 8. Feb 2019, 19:07 »
Let me present thee, concept-maker, the new level-5 icon pertaining to the Woodland King :)



Zitat
THRANDUIL

Level 1: Noble Wrath - Thranduil unleashes his fury on the battlefield to protect Mirkwood. Attacks much faster and deals splash-type damage for a short period of time. All near allied units learn from Thranduil's formidable fighting skills and get +20% experience while fighting beside the king.

Level 3: Mount/Dismount - Thranduil mounts/dismounts his mighty elk to ride/go on foot.

Level 5: Sindarin Armour - Thranduil puts on his battle armour, which gives him +25% armour. His silver armour inspires nearby units and grants them +35% attack against monsters, heroic, elite and siege units. (Passive ability)

Level 7: Feasts of Mirkwood - Thranduil gives orders to begin a special feast which offers the best vine from Dorwinion. The feast generates resources, raises the command points by 50, reveals stealth units and slowly regenerates units and their abilities. If enemies get very near the feast, Elves will vanish immediately. The feast may only be summoned once at the same time.

Level 10: Royal Counterattack - Thranduil summons a shield wall of two rows of Palace Guards around him, which starts moving against enemies and attacking them. All allied units near Palace Guards, including the Elvenking, get +50% attack.


Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #17 am: 9. Feb 2019, 00:33 »
Let me present thee, concept-maker, the new level-5 icon pertaining to the Woodland King :)



It's wonderful, as usual. :)

I'm really glad, we'll see where the next debates will lead us, but even now I'm very satisfied with proposed Thranduil's concept, because it'll solve at least two issues.

1) Personal feeling - many fans of the best Middle-earth warrior just don't like him, because his skillset is unfocused, his tank role forced, and Thranduil is overall pretty boring and and he can never meet movie expectations.
We all know where is the problem - he was crafted before BOTFA was released.

2) Roles of heroes in Lothlorien - woodland faction has the most heroes in the game (and also many units), but none of them is clear unit supporter. There is only Haldir with one or two clear unit support abilities, as well as current Thranduil, who is primarily tank. That is quite inadequate.
Yes, he is formidable warrior, but also the only elven king during the Third age in the Middle-earth and protector of woodland realm. So make from Thranduil ultimate unit supporter, but still keep mass slayer aspect from the movies, were obvious choices.


« Letzte Änderung: 9. Feb 2019, 03:43 von Tiberius Ogden »

Walküre

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #18 am: 9. Feb 2019, 14:50 »
It seems we're almost done with the formulation of all positive arguments and with the holistic conception of his in-game design. Now, near the end of the journey, is still an obstacle to surmount: what about his animation?

His current animation is one of the principal reasons why his performance comes off as disappointing and not impactful enough. He's clearly counted among the most skilled swordsmen of Middle-earth. A sensational warrior, and this the Hobbit trilogy shows very clearly. In our case, if we are to make him a lethal mass-slayer, he just needs movements that work accordingly and facilitate his goal: massacring enemy units.

Well, which is the animation set that could avail our purposes, then? We have in the game a plethora of incredibly fitting Elf-styled moves. However, we should not forget that his unique three-weapon stance system requires certain gestures and postures, so he may fight properly. Do you have any idea about alternative replacements? I haven't wrapped my head around the issue yet. I think this passage of the debate has equal priority. As Tiberius wrote, Thranduil's concept is relatively old (and quite dated, at this point); it suffers from both a wrongly appointed role and some sluggish animations. If we long to change him for the better, we must tackle this problematic, too.

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #19 am: 9. Feb 2019, 17:55 »
I like the ideas about this concept. One thing only:

Zitat
Level 1: Noble Wrath - Thranduil unleashes his fury on the battlefield to protect Mirkwood. Attacks much faster and deals splash-type damage for a short period of time. All near allied units learn from Thranduil's formidable fighting skills and get +20% experience while fighting beside the king.

Splash damage is it not redundand with the current stance system? i mean, you can just get area-of-effect damage with double blade stance.
Agree with you that the animation it's a problem.

Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #20 am: 9. Feb 2019, 18:06 »
Splash damage is it not redundand with the current stance system? i mean, you can just get area-of-effect damage with double blade stance.

Zitat
Double Sword Stance (aggressive stance) - Thrandul wields two swords and deals slight area damage. Enemies are attacked when sighted.

Yeah, but it only does "slight AoE". Splash damage would affect everything around him plus his attack would be much faster - wrathful mode if you want - during that Thranduil shows his amazing fighting skills to his soldiers.

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #21 am: 10. Feb 2019, 23:34 »
You've made quite a lot of progress, I still need to catch up with the rest of the great Lorien Hero Overhaul. I've had time to maul over the proposal and with the recent change to the Gift of Galadriel I can definitely say that I support this proposal. As for the animation, it is a tricky one we need a single handed attack animation which can also support a staff without looking awkward. Quite a daunting task, I'll try to think about it over the week to see if I can figure out anything.
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AulëTheSmith

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #22 am: 10. Feb 2019, 23:55 »
Splash damage is it not redundand with the current stance system? i mean, you can just get area-of-effect damage with double blade stance.

Zitat
Double Sword Stance (aggressive stance) - Thrandul wields two swords and deals slight area damage. Enemies are attacked when sighted.

Yeah, but it only does "slight AoE". Splash damage would affect everything around him plus his attack would be much faster - wrathful mode if you want - during that Thranduil shows his amazing fighting skills to his soldiers.

We can do even better in my opinion, in order to differentiate and even more underline the ability as millenarian swordman. During the effect of noble wrath:

Sword and staff (Difensive stance): the area of knock back is increased.
Single sword (normal stance): the Elven king gets +25% of melee attack (single damage, no aoe)
Double sword (aggressive stance): area of effect is increased.

In normal stance he will have some more chance to face strong heroes or monster, in aggressive stance you can easily slay tons of enemy, while in defensive stance you will be able to keep the enemy at bay with knock back (especially useful if Thrandul is wounded and surrounded by many enemies).
It's a good way to underline is versatile character as very skilled warrior, as you want to achieve with this overhaul  :)
In this way, you will not make the unique stance sistem flat (it would be weird if
you can get the same splash damage in the same way for all the three system, you'll nullify the uniqueness of the system).
By the way, count me as in favour of course  8-)



Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #23 am: 11. Feb 2019, 00:06 »
Sword and staff (Difensive stance): the area of knock back is increased.
Single sword (normal stance): the eleven king gets +25% of melee attack (single damage, no aoe)
Double sword (aggressive stance): area of effect is increased.

I thought about increased AoE for all stances ...
but I also thought about different "fast effects" for all stances ...  xD ... like your suggestion.

Halbarad

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #24 am: 26. Feb 2019, 13:24 »
I am glad you gave him his armor at Level 5 and the magic shield through Galadriels gifts. Last one is a great idea and the first one the main point I wanted to see. So same as "TheOnlyTrueWitchking" I am for your suggestion.

Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #25 am: 27. Feb 2019, 04:52 »
I am glad you gave him his armor at Level 5 and the magic shield through Galadriels gifts.

Yes, it's not only obvious, but also natural solution which corresponds with many other heores in the game and also provides option how to give Thranduil some really unique and acceptable gift.

the first one the main point I wanted to see

It's my favourite new skill in his skillset, which explores Thranduil's fighting skills but also highlights his new ultimate unit support role that Lothlorien desperately needs.

We can say that his whole rework fills the gap in the Edain roles but still reflects our thoughts and hopes that he must be that formidable warrior from the movie. 8-)

Gandalf7000

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #26 am: 27. Feb 2019, 15:13 »
As someone already said: i didn't think Thranduil needed an overhaul before i read this. This is amazing concept for Thranduil, what a truly Elven king deserves. Well done. I'm in favor of this. Still I find the picture of Noble Wrath not quite good. It would be better if the pic resembled Thranduil fighting. Not an easy task, i know, but still.....

Tiberius Ogden

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #27 am: 27. Feb 2019, 16:58 »
As someone already said: i didn't think Thranduil needed an overhaul before i read this. This is amazing concept for Thranduil, what a truly Elven king deserves. Well done.

Because we've got used to him. Well not me, or Walk, or many others. Cause we remember that day, when Thranduil was announced on Moddb. Immediately followed backlash from the fans that he is not like in the movies, neither visually nor his skillset. The truth is that he was like in the movies - like in the first two Hobbit movies. Edain team just was faster and crafted him before Botfa came out. And it was the main problem.

Then we at least invented his stances - first official idea from the Edain international community which was fully implemented, by the way - but it didn't help either.

Then ET crafted his armour, which was implemented via gift, well, it was right move to the third movie, but I also stated the famous line, which is still relevant these days - that Galadriel is not walking armory and that we should reconsider the way how Thranduil can get the armour in order to make gifts more unique.

Many fans critized his tank role ... "Tank, why? he is mass slayer ... tell me which abilities he has as a tank?'" and response from the ET, that "he has magic shield", really didn't help. xD

And time has passed and here we go again. Personally I would like to see Thranduil as a mass slayer as well. Problem is that such aspect is already present in the faction, at least two or three heroes have AoE abilities. What we can't find in woodland faction is standard unit supporter, and as a king should be the really great unit supporter with strong leadership.
But it doesn't mean that we can't implement mass slayer aspect in some of his unit support abilities. ;)
Synergy between the roles, between Thranduil and his units.

I find the picture of Noble Wrath not quite good. It would be better if the pic resembled Thranduil fighting. Not an easy task, i know, but still.....

I'm sure that Walk will think about that, but it's not a priority. I've just recyclated current pic which quite fits - Thranduil looks noble there.
« Letzte Änderung: 27. Feb 2019, 22:28 von Tiberius Ogden »

Walküre

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #28 am: 27. Feb 2019, 17:41 »
I think the current icon is well suitable for its relative ability. Being a level-1 feature, when Thranduil is still clothed in kingly robes, it would be unwise to utilise images showing him armoured and fighting.

If anything, I might craft a new icon for his ultimate skill. I'll try to pull something out of my magic hat ;)

Besides, a general question: has someone managed to find a new set of animations, as good as a decent replacement for his present, sluggish movements? Perhaps, this is the last major hurdle we must overcome.

OakenShield224

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Re: Thranduil
« Antwort #29 am: 27. Feb 2019, 17:51 »
I’ve mainly been avoiding this thread and the Grimbeorn thread for a while, but I feel like I should respond to the discussions since I do have a lot to say on the topic. I’ll talk about both here since the proposals are linked. Overall, while I like some ideas of the proposals, I don’t really agree with them. I’ll go through the in-depth reasons why.

Thranduil first. From what I can tell, the proposal is trying to make him into more of a mass slayer but mainly a unit supporter. I don’t really see how the proposal is making him a mass slayer though beyond giving him a temporary AOE effect (even though he already has a permanent AOE effect). I like the idea of Royal Counterattack since it does differentiate from Aragorn’s skill, but I’m not sure it counts as a mass slaying skill (it is basically a summon after all). I’m not really convinced by the supportive changes either to be honest. The current armour leadership has been removed and the attack bonus has been moved onto his level 10 (although buffed). He’s also had a small experience boost and a passive boost against elites/monsters etc. It seems a bit of a nerf from what his current supporting aspect is, and also a bit unnecessary (does Lorien really need ways of dealing with monsters and elites when they have the best archers in the game as well as very good pikes?). In addition, the current leadership suits Thranduil’s character a lot better. In the lore, he and his kingdom were always reclusive, acting defensively to protect their borders from spiders and orcs. It was only in times of need that Thranduil sent his armies to attack (e.g. at the Battle of Five Armies and the Battle of Dol Guldur). In the Hobbit book, even though he wanted his share of the treasure, he was reluctant to start a full war for gold, only going to battle when Dain’s armies arrived. I feel that the unit supportive aspect of this proposal is too aggressive to fit with Thranduil’s character and mindset. In addition, I’m not sure that he’d go on to lead the other units of the faction, considering how isolationist he was. While I did like the Arcane Shield, I don’t really mind it being replaced if the replacement is good (which I believe the Gift is now after a bit of convincing). As for the animations issue, if a good enough set can be found which portrays his grace in battle well, then I’d support that change.

Grimbeorn now. I’ll go through each of his abilities individually to say what I think about them. The only change I can see for the form switch is the removal of the extra building damage when in human form which is a little bit of a nerf but not too bad, I suppose. Ferocious Strike has had the “heavy damage” removed which again seems like a bit of a nerf. I like the Deadly Jump (even if it does just seem like another Gimli leap of which there are 3 in the mod currently). Survival Instinct is the same as currently so that’s fine. With Beorn’s Bees, you’ve said that they’d damage enemies when he’s under attack. That seems sort of redundant to me since, if you’re in the situation where you’d use that ability, he’d already be the in the thick of battle and therefore be getting attacked anyway. As for Power of the Wilderness, the main changes I can see are that the +100% damage has been replaced by being immune to lances and gaining extra armour, which is a decent trade.

Overall, while I’m not really opposed to any of the changes (other than Thranduil going from a defensive hero to an offensive hero via his support abilities), they mostly seem unnecessary for me to be honest. Current Thranduil is one of the heroes I pretty much always get in Lorien matches (along with Galadriel and Haldir) for how useful he is in game, and this proposal doesn’t really seem needed if that makes sense, at least compared to other aspects of the mod. As for Grimbeorn, I’ll admit that I don’t really use him that much in games, but I’m not really sure that this proposal would change how I use him that much. It just seems like a minor nerf.
« Letzte Änderung: 27. Feb 2019, 21:21 von OakenShield224 »