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Autor Thema: Balrog in goblin faction  (Gelesen 5054 mal)

Malhakai

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Balrog in goblin faction
« am: 27. Mai 2019, 18:01 »
Good day fellow fans,

I have been reading through the threads from edain about the upcoming goblin faction, as well as through various threads by fans about either for or against the inclusion of a permanent Balrog hero.

Personally I was disappointed to see that the Balrog is not a permanent hero of the goblin faction, especially since moria is the central/main base of the goblins - I felt it was fitting for the Balrog to be their central hero. I understand that the Balrog is extremely strong, which appears to be why most do not favour him as a permanent hero.

I have always disliked how the Balrog expires/dies after a period of time, when in the book he would be sleeping.

I was thinking of a design, that allowed him to be a permanent addition to the goblin faction, without being nerfed or making the goblins extremely over powered. What if the goblins received a power that allowed a dwarven moria hall (or perhaps 4 pillars like in Khazad Dum) to be summoned to a location. This location could only be a certain distance away from the central moria base (like how in bfme 2 walls had a maximum distance they could be built). These pillars would be indestructible, but summoned the Balrog to roam/patrol around the pillars in a medium radius. If the Balrog is killed, then the pillars are also destroyed. The Balrog himself would be hostile to all units, similar to how Sharku's summoned warg is hostile to all. All units in the vicinity of the Balrog would also have their damage and armour reduced, similar to Galadriel's debuff aura when she takes the ring. Only 1 Khazad Dum Pillars could be summoned at a time, like the Dwarven Citadel. I am not sure on how the mechanics of modding function, but I also thought that perhaps the Khazad Dum pillars could have a sort of tunnel/crack/pit in the center that the Balrog would roam into. So at first glance, just the Pillars are visible, but when approaching the Balrog would come out of the pit to attack, roam around the pillars, and return to the pit to slumber. This would also prevent the Balrog from dying to arrow fire out of range of his roaming path - meaning that it would take causalities and effort to slay him.

I have attempted to capture the concept of the Balrog in this power - although he lived in Moria with the goblins, they were not exactly allies - more so just living in the same location. He appeared hostile to all, which is why the goblins retreated when he roamed the halls. He did not venture out into Middle Earth, instead made Moria his home, so it makes sense I feel that he should not be able to venture all over the map. He was a terrifying presence to behold, so debuffing other 'lesser' beings I thought was fitting. The Balrog also slumbered for majority of the third age, so I liked the idea of him 'retreating' to the pit.

I felt that this would allow an immersive play style, allowing players to feel like they truly are in Moria - having to avoid the Balrog as he has a mind of his own in his radius. It could allow the Balrog to be summoned to a narrow location, to prevent all players from utilizing that location easily. This way the Balrog could retain his current stats and abilities, and he could use them randomly too. It would mainly act as an immersive power for the goblins, and an added defensive layer to a target location. It could not be placed too close to any players base, but create a sort of forward advance point, or a way to defend a certain location from all players. 

Apologies for this idea not being as well layed out as others. Just wished to share my 2 cents. :-)
« Letzte Änderung: 27. Mai 2019, 18:27 von FG15 »

FG15

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #1 am: 27. Mai 2019, 18:29 »
That sounds quite interesting.

Gandalf7000

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #2 am: 29. Mai 2019, 10:53 »
Good day fellow fans,

I have been reading through the threads from edain about the upcoming goblin faction, as well as through various threads by fans about either for or against the inclusion of a permanent Balrog hero.

Personally I was disappointed to see that the Balrog is not a permanent hero of the goblin faction, especially since moria is the central/main base of the goblins - I felt it was fitting for the Balrog to be their central hero. I understand that the Balrog is extremely strong, which appears to be why most do not favour him as a permanent hero.

I have always disliked how the Balrog expires/dies after a period of time, when in the book he would be sleeping.

I was thinking of a design, that allowed him to be a permanent addition to the goblin faction, without being nerfed or making the goblins extremely over powered. What if the goblins received a power that allowed a dwarven moria hall (or perhaps 4 pillars like in Khazad Dum) to be summoned to a location. This location could only be a certain distance away from the central moria base (like how in bfme 2 walls had a maximum distance they could be built). These pillars would be indestructible, but summoned the Balrog to roam/patrol around the pillars in a medium radius. If the Balrog is killed, then the pillars are also destroyed. The Balrog himself would be hostile to all units, similar to how Sharku's summoned warg is hostile to all. All units in the vicinity of the Balrog would also have their damage and armour reduced, similar to Galadriel's debuff aura when she takes the ring. Only 1 Khazad Dum Pillars could be summoned at a time, like the Dwarven Citadel. I am not sure on how the mechanics of modding function, but I also thought that perhaps the Khazad Dum pillars could have a sort of tunnel/crack/pit in the center that the Balrog would roam into. So at first glance, just the Pillars are visible, but when approaching the Balrog would come out of the pit to attack, roam around the pillars, and return to the pit to slumber. This would also prevent the Balrog from dying to arrow fire out of range of his roaming path - meaning that it would take causalities and effort to slay him.

I have attempted to capture the concept of the Balrog in this power - although he lived in Moria with the goblins, they were not exactly allies - more so just living in the same location. He appeared hostile to all, which is why the goblins retreated when he roamed the halls. He did not venture out into Middle Earth, instead made Moria his home, so it makes sense I feel that he should not be able to venture all over the map. He was a terrifying presence to behold, so debuffing other 'lesser' beings I thought was fitting. The Balrog also slumbered for majority of the third age, so I liked the idea of him 'retreating' to the pit.

I felt that this would allow an immersive play style, allowing players to feel like they truly are in Moria - having to avoid the Balrog as he has a mind of his own in his radius. It could allow the Balrog to be summoned to a narrow location, to prevent all players from utilizing that location easily. This way the Balrog could retain his current stats and abilities, and he could use them randomly too. It would mainly act as an immersive power for the goblins, and an added defensive layer to a target location. It could not be placed too close to any players base, but create a sort of forward advance point, or a way to defend a certain location from all players. 

Apologies for this idea not being as well layed out as others. Just wished to share my 2 cents. :-)
You have my absolute favor on this one! I mentioned a similar way of neutral Balrog on Discord server, but my idea was to summon the balrog as he is now but he'd be neutral. But now reading through your concept i like this one better. Balrog is something that everyone fears, even goblins and it would only be fitting if he'd be neutral to everyone. This would be very nice and the goblin player would need to use different strategy (which this mod is quite good at - different strategies for each faction, heroes and unit types). Good luck with the concept to be included in 4.5. I like it.

Halbarad

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #3 am: 30. Mai 2019, 23:08 »
You have my favor too. Sounds pretty nice. The cave would have to be pretty huge, but something as big as mirkwood fortress could probably big enough. He could lay down while sleeping as he does when disappearing normally and have a huge defense bonus, since his wings surround his body. Also he could also be surrounded by smoke that disguises him while sleeping. This way it would be easier to let him disappear from the battlefield than letting him really disappear for a while (which would probably look a bit odd).

Malhakai

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #4 am: 3. Jun 2019, 16:05 »
The cave would have to be pretty huge, but something as big as mirkwood fortress could probably big enough. He could lay down while sleeping as he does when disappearing normally and have a huge defense bonus, since his wings surround his body. Also he could also be surrounded by smoke that disguises him while sleeping. This way it would be easier to let him disappear from the battlefield than letting him really disappear for a while (which would probably look a bit odd).

I was thinking of a downward slope tunnel that he would walk into, (like the tunnels in LoTR Third Age when the main character fights the first goblin chieftain), opposed to a tall structure like the Mirkwood outpost. I think the Khazad Dum pillars should be the highest point of the structure - however I do love your idea of smoke rising up to hide the Balrog. Perhaps in the middle of the pillars could just be smoke rising, that the Balrog cannot be seen in? The only reason to not have him permanently patrolling is to avoid him easily being killed by arrows0.

I am happy that others are liking this idea :-)

Halbarad

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #5 am: 3. Jun 2019, 17:01 »
Well I had my problems with imagining such a huge, glowing beast as the Balrog just disappear in a tunnel. It does fit to small units and even a dwarven chariot to disappear in a tunnel, but it could be difficult to not just let it seem like the Balrog just disappears when being half into that tunnel. Thats why I came up with this idea.
Although he could be hidden with some smoke when entering the building, so he would not teleport but disappear in smoke when entering the tunnel.

But probably I don't know whats possible for the Edain team to realize and what isn't, so that doesn't have so much importance for me since I really the suggestion.

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #6 am: 3. Jun 2019, 19:01 »
Something to consider when talking about the Balrog is that he is extremely taxing for the computer and leads to more lags and a slower game. When he is on the field for only a short time that normally goes unnoticed, but if he were to stay permanently visible it would probably lead to a lower performance of the game.
Nonetheless, I really like the idea of a Balrog cave, but a way to hide its disappearance for longer times is probably necessary. Maybe it could also be linked with one of the spells for the goblins? Like the defensive 10-cost spell could make him controllable to defend the base (if its possible to limit the movement range of a single character?) or, whats more probable, link it with an offensive spell?
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Malhakai

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #7 am: 3. Jun 2019, 21:19 »
Something to consider when talking about the Balrog is that he is extremely taxing for the computer and leads to more lags and a slower game. When he is on the field for only a short time that normally goes unnoticed, but if he were to stay permanently visible it would probably lead to a lower performance of the game.
Nonetheless, I really like the idea of a Balrog cave, but a way to hide its disappearance for longer times is probably necessary. Maybe it could also be linked with one of the spells for the goblins? Like the defensive 10-cost spell could make him controllable to defend the base (if its possible to limit the movement range of a single character?) or, whats more probable, link it with an offensive spell?

I am really not sure what is possible to mod, and what is not. If this idea/concept becomes popular and the team wish to implement it, I am sure they will know what they can do and how to improve it to ensure the game runs smoothly. I am only a very novice modder, such as altering unit stats/hero availability etc. I really have no idea how hard something like this would be. Just thought of an idea and wished to share it :-)

I would think that this would be a top tier spell, perhaps the top tier defensive spell of the goblins (as edain are customizing faction spell books into offensive and defensive). This idea was an alternative to just summoning the Balrog at any location for a duration, so the offensive top tier spell and central spell would be available for more goblin specific spells instead.

Gnomi

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #8 am: 3. Jun 2019, 21:45 »
Having a permanent Balrog is something very difficult for multiple reasons.
One of the most important ones is what Mandos said:
A Balrog alone is basically as taxing than a full army.
Just imagine a 4-player game with 4 times Mordor (as they are also a spam faction) and all of them are spamming Orcs. Everyone who was in such a game knows that the game will extremly slow down. Now imagine that in LG every player has this spell and uses it - suddenly you don't just have 4 spam factions, but basically the same as 8 factions spamming troups all the time. This will lead to a lot of game crashes.
By having the Balrog as a "small time summon", he will slow down the game only very little and even if all 4 players can summon a balrog - it will most likely not be at the same time and even then, it will just be a very small tiem period.



What does this mean?
A permanent Balrog (or long time summon) will always be tricky, not because we don't want it, but because it will cause massive technical problems.

Malhakai

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #9 am: 11. Jun 2019, 19:39 »
That is obviously something to take into consideration, and I am sure others would know better what the game can handle and what it cannot. Having the Balrog 'vanish' into the pit or smoke would lessen his presence. I just wanted to voice a suggestion :-)

In response though, the same thing could be said for 8 players spamming only cavalry, or only archers, all powers etc. The game will always slow down or potentially crash when a lot is happening at once. In game you can set the command limit to almost unlimited, that feature is available for everyone in every game. Imagine 8 players with unlimited units..... these worst case scenarios are vast, but we should not avoid creating the game world the best it can be simply because a minority of players will abuse the system and 'break' the game causing it to run slowly or crash.

The Balrog is only permanent while the opponent forgoes killing it in its set location. I personally only play against the computer, not other players. When I create a game, I only create a game that is 'realistic' for Middle Earth. So I'd most likely be Dwarves or Lorien VS Goblins, rather than Rohan VS Goblins etc.

Gnomi

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #10 am: 11. Jun 2019, 20:16 »
Zitat
I just wanted to voice a suggestion :-)

Nothing against giving suggestions. xD It's just part of being on a mdoding team that you always try to see the problems.^^ So if I'm sceptical and pessimistic: Don't be hurt by it, it's just part of my job and it's better to look at all the downsides of a concept before it gets integrated, than having done a lot of work for a not working concept. [ugly] Also a lot of concepts look really good in the beginning, but have some flaws in special scenarios. (I remember concepts which are changed more than 10 times, because every time someone noticed some major flaws.... some of our intern concepts never managed to get in the mod, as they were good in theory, but there were huge technical problems^^)
I just point them out, as you can perhaps use the knowledge to make the concept better! :)

Zitat
In response though, the same thing could be said for 8 players spamming only cavalry, or only archers, all powers etc.
Yeah, but you have to look at the dimensions and the time - if all players fight with all their army, they will die and therefore the game will have time with less stress.^^
Also the Balrog is in addition to that - so basically every game with goblins would automatically be double as stressful as every other game. That is nothing nonrelevant.^^
Just because something is bad for the engine we shouldn't just add more things which are even worse for the engine.^^

Zitat
The game will always slow down or potentially crash when a lot is happening at once. In game you can set the command limit to almost unlimited, that feature is available for everyone in every game. Imagine 8 players with unlimited units..... these worst case scenarios are vast, but we should not avoid creating the game world the best it can be simply because a minority of players will abuse the system and 'break' the game causing it to run slowly or crash.
Just as a small note: We are mostly doing things for the normal mode. Things like infinite CP are for fun and people know that the mod is not made to run perfect there.

Zitat
I personally only play against the computer, not other players.


And here we have a problem:
Everything should work in SP and MP and also if we don't just fight realistic battles, but also if we fight unrealistic battles. And for MP balance is very important.
This Balrog is not balanced, it will always be way too weak. Just use one bataillon to distract it (and with knights you can do it without the balrog having a chance to attack you) and your whole army can just walk past it, which makes the Balrog basically completely useless. In MP the balrog won't look cool, most likely it would just be a bit annoying.
Another thing I am currently unsure is how the walking and "sleeping" might work. Sadly the engine gives us some restrictions here. [ugly]
1.) We can use the system of normal creeps. But here the Balrog would always walk around it.
2.) The system of the spider/wolf-defensive building. Here the units stay still... BUT here we have another problem (sigh [ugly]) The units will quite often have animation bugs, like sliding instead of working properly. The spiders are so small that you don't see it and even wolves are small enough that it is not a major problem... But if the Balrog had such a bug... everyone would notice it and it would be way less cooler immediately. Perhaps someone can fix that, but even then the Balrog would still be on the map the whole time, perhaps with less FX, but I'm unsure here.
3.)Something completely new - I have some ideas here, but I'm unsure how they work (adding scripts for the creep player and use the mine system of the dwarves. The main problem would be that the Balrog would somehow "disappear" at the end and not walk down some stairs, which looks less cool immediately, and it will probably have problems, as the Balrog is really slow and walkin out of it will take some time such that many troups will just walk past it, even before he can attack.) But having a problem based on a non-existant system (we don't know if this can be created) is always a bit tricky, as the practicability will not depend on how good the system is, but on luck.^^

Another problem is:
What will stop me from just placing the Balrog directly in front of the enemy base? We would need some minimal distance between the summon and every fortress/castle. And some maps are so small that the Balrog either needs a very little radius (which will cause problems, as he can be killed by archers or everyone can just run past it) or it will not be usable on some maps. That will also need some considerations.^^

Also a lot of people want to actually use the balrog and not just see it. That's why a lot of people want to have the balrog as a hero. They want to play with it. Having it as a creep will look cool, but never feel as satisfiable as using his fire breath to destroy an army or a fortress.^^ For those guys it would be even worse and I can also understand their points. (even though I am completely against the balrog as normal recruitable hero, but the reasoning behind that would be too much)

Again:
I don't want to destroy your idea or bad-mouth it. I just think that it is fairer if I tell you now about my concerns, while it still can be discussed and new ideas can be be build in. Every concept always has problems in the beginning, the question is always: How can they can be deleted? And therefore someone has to talk about the problems.^^

Malhakai

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #11 am: 17. Jun 2019, 16:49 »
Whah! Thank-you for such an in-depth reply. It certainly sounds extremely tricky and too difficult to implement without a great amount of stress. I shall leave the modding to the professionals :-)

Gnomi

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #12 am: 17. Jun 2019, 16:57 »
Zitat
I shall leave the modding to the professionals :-)

That doesn't mean that you should not make anymore  suggestions! xD Most of our concepts are either made by people who have no idea of modding or are at least based on those ideas. Quite often we see concepts and know that they are technically not possible, but as many people seemed to like it, we try to find similar concepts, which are not exactly like the suggestion, but at least similar. (make another concept out of the same basic idea)
It is always important and nice to hear what people want in the mod! xD

dgsgomes

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #13 am: 5. Nov 2019, 11:17 »
Personally I am a bit skeptical of making Balrog permanent, because with the variety of maps that exist in the mod, I foresee a lot of problems with this possibility of making it stationary - either because of the endless bug possibilities or making the game less dynamic.

However, the idea of ​​making Balrog hostile to everyone is very interesting, as it is in keeping with the lore and maybe it can be implemented into the game in an interesting way...

In this case, I was thinking about the possibility of Balrog being invoked in the same way as Vanilla, but this time it wouldn't be controlled - instead, to maintain its destructive power, it could stay on the field for twice the normal time.

But here I would like to know if my idea would be possible coding-wise: could we have an invoked Balrog automatically drive towards the nearest citadel while on the way attacking the living creature or building that is in it's path, including using its abilities?

In other words, it would make Durin's Bane a highly destructive AI, which could be summoned near the enemy base to wreak havoc (Balrog would need to attack gates to invade castles if possible), but would attack even those who summoned it they cross it's path.

Thus, the idea of ​​the hostile Balrog would be maintained to everyone without demanding too much from the game engine, as well as having it on the field for a longer period(**)

FG15

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #14 am: 5. Nov 2019, 11:56 »
Zitat
But here I would like to know if my idea would be possible coding-wise: could we have an invoked Balrog automatically drive towards the nearest citadel while on the way attacking the living creature or building that is in it's path, including using its abilities?
It would be possible to drive him towards the nearest citadel but he probably wouldn't attack anything on the way. So trampling and setting aflame nearby enemies would be everything.
Instead it would be possible to have him automatically drive towards the nearest priority target (heroes, buildings, whatever) and if that gets destroyed setting his sight on the next one.

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #15 am: 5. Nov 2019, 12:08 »
Would it also be able to give this balrog a bit of an intelligent behavior such as using the fly to get to its target, setting itself abalze when engaging it, using roar/fire when surrounded by many units?
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FG15

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #16 am: 5. Nov 2019, 13:44 »
Up to a certain degree yes.

dgsgomes

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #17 am: 6. Nov 2019, 10:48 »
FG15, can Durin's bane be summoned inside of a Castle with gate? Also, can it pass through Lothlorien's bases elevated bridges? Can it attack castle gates without attacking walls? Can it fly from the outside to the inside of a castle?
(for all these questions, the balrog would work as an AI)

I'm asking this because I'd like to understand the coding limitations more before proposing something

FG15

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #18 am: 6. Nov 2019, 10:58 »
Don't really know most of these, haven't ever used the Balrog after the change to the BfME1 building system.

From what I remember from playing BfME1, the Balrog has to be summoned outside castles, can't move through gates (he is too big), can destroy walls and gates and can fly over walls.

As I wouldn't really know the actual limitations until I'm doing some work on the Balrog (and even then I'm often able to circumvent some of those), just propose something and I will intercept, when something seems clearly impossible to me.

dgsgomes

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #19 am: 6. Nov 2019, 18:06 »
Okay, I will make a full proposal; to do this, as I don't know for sure, I will suppose that the Vanilla's summoned Balrog lasts from 1 minute before vanishing only for time ratio reasons

1- The Balrog would be summoned the same way as in Vanilla
2- It would not be controlled by the one who summoned it instead, it would work as an A.I. agressive to any player's unit that crosses his path
3- It would last for double the amount of time that it lasted before vanishing in Vanilla to compensate it's destructive power for not being player controlled - in my logic, it would last for 2 minutes for time ratio reasons

4- As soon as the Balrog is summoned (appearing from the ground the same way as in Vanilla), it would use the ability Scream to make a terror out of it's appearance to everyone arround it; after that, it will atack the nearest priority target (unit or hero)
5- When it's timer reaches 15 seconds, Durin's bane would use his Fire Whip ability in the nearest priority target (unit or hero), and would continue attacking the nearest priority target after that (unit or hero)
6- When it's timer reaches 30 seconds, the Balrog will head to the closest enemy's camp/castle, which it would reach using the Wings ability
7- Right after reaching a base by flying, it would use the Ignite ability, and right after that it would use the Breathe Fire ability in the nearest priority target (building); after that, it will continue attacking the nearest priority target (building)
8- When it's timer reaches 1 minute, it would use Fire Whip in the closest priority target (unit or hero); after that, it would continue attacking the nearest priority target (unit or hero)
9 - When Durin's Bane timer reaches 1 minute and 15 seconds, it would use the Scream ability; right after that, it would continue attacking the nearest priority target (building)
10 - When it's timer reaches 1 minute and 30 seconds, it would use Ignite again and, right after that, would keep attacking the nearest priority target (building)
11- When it's timer reaches 1 minute and 45 seconds, it would use Fire Whip in the closest priority target (unit or hero); after that, it would continue attacking the nearest priority target (unit or hero)
12- When it's timer reaches 2 minutes, the Balrog would finally vanish

As you can see, the idea is to make the Balrog highly destructive both against buildings and units, as well as to make it dangerous even if you know what is coming next and with an A.I. that is not easily cheated; for example, even though you know that after 30 seconds of appearance the Balrog will head to your base, there is very little you can do to absolutely prevent it's destructive capacity in such a short amount of time - but not everything is lost, as having heroes with great capabilities, such as a levelled up Gandalf, may prevent you from massive destruction!

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #20 am: 8. Nov 2019, 00:21 »
I reckon it has been a very wide-ranging discussion, and the fact of it being related to future content, pleases me even more. I can really sense the great anticipation that the Goblins always instil in people. Good thing, I say! ;)

Anyhow, I tried to follow the salient sections of this thread of ours and read into anyone's objectives or motives, although I confess that some parts I have perhaps missed completely. Nonetheless, I am reading The Lord of the Rings, at the moment, and have recently had the pleasure to go through the tense pages of the Fellowship's misadventures in Moria. Starting from such a premise, I would really like to give the debate a definite input, and then make it turn towards an even more unique direction, if you permit me.

1. First comes a very general question of mine: why do we need the Balrog to assume the role of neutral, faithless, and unbound enemy? Why do we have to turn him into, for lack of better descriptions, a 'game hazard'?

That is exactly what I feel like questioning, being it one of the major pillars which sustain several previous proposals and arguments.

While exploring the books deeper and deeper, the only official source, I never got the slight impression that Durin's Bane was so loose and untameable a threat for all the parties involved (Orcs and heroes). Actually, to my utter surprise, the fiery demon we all came to dread, seems to take a defined leading role among the lesser creatures he finds himself surrounded by. Not only is his arrival in the chamber cheered for by Goblins (he makes his appearance earlier, in the books), but the same swarm of foes are subsequently seen jeering and shouting against Gandalf, during the famous duel atop the bridge. Last, but not least, the Balrog is incontrovertibly evil, whether he be in league with other usurpers or not. As far as I grasped from my read, even if not directly affiliated, a sort of tacit consent or agreement between Orcs and Morgoth's blazing servant is quite tangible to be noticed (packs of Goblins chase the Fellowship even unto the western boundaries of Lothlórien).

Given the apparent status of the said demon as a force for evil, it would be pretty naïve to waste his potential. In other words, it is my opinion that taking the Balrog away from the player will not do any good; we have played with him for ages, making full use of his impeccable set of devastating abilities. He was never meant to be a side-feature of the game, nor an ornamental embellishment.
The Misty Mountains faction is supposed to include every peril, beast, Orc, and monster crawling either on or under those peaks. The Balrog does belong to the context in which he happens to be a part of.

2. Concerning the constructive aspect of my general consideration, there might be another path we could choose to proceed on. A more insidious route, yet indubitably much more creative.

The Balrog ought to stay as the playable calamity we have come to know throughout the eventful years of the BFME series. Be it a final spell or not, there is an ulterior candidate that would make for a dreadful, non-aligned concept...

Zitat
"Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day."
Gandalf the White



The Nameless Things are one of the darkest riddles of Middle-earth. They are briefly mentioned by Gandalf in his recounting of the battle against Durin's Bane, from the utmost low to the highest top of the mounts, and they are not addressed anymore thereafter. The two Maiar fell in the immense chasm of Moria, down to the deepest recesses of Arda itself, which had not been mined by Dwarf, Orc, or wicked entities of any sort. There, the wizard told the Three Hunters that gigantic tunnels had previously been excavated by some 'Nameless Things', which Sauron himself has no knowledge of. Primordial creatures, as old as the very world, inhabiting the abyss even prior to the coming of the Ainur, whose ignorance of their existence indicates that, as the text infers, this mysterious kind could represent an imperfect by-product of the Music, which no Angel was directly involved in and which most likely stemmed from the original discord in the melody.

Gandalf appears quite loth to go into plainer details; almost terrified, since, in his words, reporting more of those secrets would 'darken the light of day'...

If we are to piece everything together, I would say that we are dealing with primeval horrors. A ruined, marred, and antique monstrosity, albeit taking neither side in the conflict between light and dark, which makes them a good deal more interesting. Neither benevolent nor malevolent by nature, despite being one of the most lethal species one could find in the lore. An unwelcome experiment that Eru only knows about, perchance?



If you see a possible scope for proposing another ultimate or tier-3 spell, I would be more than glad to craft a concept fashioned on such obscure fragments. As you may know, referring to the vanilla vision of Goblins themselves, there are still a few gaps of missing canonical material that we might fill in with official book-lore.

Speaking about animations and models, do not we already have an abominable earth-gnawing worm at hand? Like many times before, we had better use extant content in the best of the ways. There is a chance to come up with something extremely innovative. Needless to be reminded, we would not be compelled to lose control of the Balrog, in such a scenario.

What say you? :)

dgsgomes

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #21 am: 8. Nov 2019, 21:42 »
You are right, the Balrog is definitively evil, just like the goblins. However, 2 things must also be considered. First of all, evil creatures often are corrupt, treacherous and hostile even to each other; this is shown, for example, in the confrontation between orcs and uruk-hai, orcs and other orcs, Azog and his subordinates. Secondly, the Balrog is a far superior beast compared to the goblins, which are weak and easily expandable, so I wonder... Why would Durin's Bane side with such irrelevant creatures?

It's very different from Shelob and the Mordor faction, for example; it seems that the giant spider and the Cirith Ungol orcs have something like a pact of no aggression/mutual benefit - and even if they did not have this "relation", Sauron, the central figure of the whole faction, is a much superior being (even more than Durin's Bane) that could easily demand an allegiance from Shelob if that was his wish. This situation does not occur in Misty Mountains, which is centered in the figure of Bolg, a creature that is definitively irrelevant near the Balrog of Moria.

On the other hand, one might say that "oh, through your logic there is no sense for Smaug siding with Misty Mountains". That makes sense, but only partially; Smaug is not only a very proud creature, that the goblins would definitively flatter, but also a dragon - so he lusts for gold more than anything else. That is why the greatest calamity would side with the goblins: they have what to offer in exchange of the dragon's allegiance - and it seems that this concept was repeatedly discussed in the poll about Smaug's role on Misty Mountains here in MU.

Well, all that said, that is why it makes sense for Durin's Bane to be agressive to all beings and non subordinate to anyone.

-----

About your proposal of associating the "nameless things" to the Wyrm's concept in a single spell, I have to say: go ahead! I wanna know your thoughts about it, of course! I've created a poll about my initial ideas for the upcoming Misty Mountains' spellbook; I encourage you to detail your proposal there  :)

Walküre

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #22 am: 10. Nov 2019, 01:10 »
I'm on my part thankful for reading your and anyone's feedback, DGS. It's always a pleasure to liven the atmosphere of the forum and to bring warmth for the cold autumn, as well. Of greater note, we are debating content that is to undergo serious changes in the time to be. Certain scattered threads and sketched proposals have already been showcased to the public, here; the next step would be to somehow reconcile every effort of ours and prepare the ground for an ensemble, holistic plan for Misty Mountains spells. I'll elaborate more on it in more appropriate places. Thanks for having rekindled interest around the topic, anyway :)



Well, I won't really bore you with further ado on my personal thesis. The kernel of the whole argument is twofold, I say:

1. Some aspects of your remarks I agree with. The Evil makes ruthless use of a myriad of servants; worthless serfs in the eyes of their lieutenants or chieftains (let alone Ringwraiths or Sauron himself). I also second the point you made about inherent treachery among beings that seem to have absorbed faithless tendencies in their bloodstream, since the very beginning of their wretched life. Tolkien himself doesn't forget to often remind us of said natural sin of Orcs and akin creatures, which neither choice nor conscience may reverse. Thirdly, excessive awe, to the point of utter terror, towards their superiors, appears to be a constant in minions' behaviour; the Dark Lord is without a reason worshipped and obeyed by 'virtue' of intimidation and violence, inspiring a sort of cult-like devotion in either ogres or corrupted Men.

Said that, given the Balrog's higher status in the hierarchy (and divine essence, too!), assuming that he might have taken the lead in the deep of the mines, is something I would regard as a no-brainer. To corroborate facts officially, we are just told that by the cited books, where, believe you me, it's more than evident to figure out who actually runs things down under. Moreover, if I were to address the huge disparity of power existing between a flaming old demon and hordes of witless Orcs, that, to me, would be an additional proof that the former happens to hold absolute control over the latter. So, why should he harm his slaves or even work against them?

The last thorny issue is given particular relevance in a game-oriented perspective, in which, as you know, matters are put in a lot easier and intuitive fashion than we are used to otherwise. I suppose there would be loads of people loathing the prospect of not being able to play with their favourite blazing monster from the nether-world, the justification being that he should embody some kind of lawless/uncontrollable calamity (which he is, in a sense, but not at an extreme degree). Forget you not that we are speaking of a final or low-tier spell, with this bearing all the consequences of the case.

2. Yes, I would like to reorder thoughts a bit and craft a more consistent concept involving Nameless Things. I may open a new thread for the occasion. In the end, I will make sure to fine-tune any suggestion with your work on the remaining spells. Wait my coming to your own topic, by the way. I hope we shall be creators and artisans of new worthy ideas to impress the team with ;)
« Letzte Änderung: 10. Nov 2019, 01:15 von Walküre »

dgsgomes

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Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #23 am: 10. Nov 2019, 10:56 »
I understood your thoughts about the Balrog's concept; I can call this discussion even, as having Durin's bane controllable or not, it seems that somehow it would be according to the lore anyway; it's more about looking through different perspectives.

That said, yes, I'm looking forward to your feedback on my suggestions; modesty apart, I personally think that my ideas are good, are fitting to the lore and embraces some of the community's demands, but it's always good to refine some things or to change other things for good. Also, as you are a veteran in here, having your support is great.

Lastly, yes, hopefully we can be of great help for the team on this matter  :)