28. Mär 2024, 19:55 Hallo Gast.
Willkommen Gast. Bitte einloggen oder registrieren. Haben Sie Ihre Aktivierungs E-Mail übersehen?

Einloggen mit Benutzername, Passwort und Sitzungslänge. Hierbei werden gemäß Datenschutzerklärung Benutzername und Passwort verschlüsselt für die gewählte Dauer in einem Cookie abgelegt.


Select Boards:
 
Language:
 


Autor Thema: Balrog in goblin faction  (Gelesen 5055 mal)

The_Necromancer0

  • Edain Team
  • Beschützer des verbotenen Weihers
  • *****
  • Beiträge: 1.529
  • There is evil there that does not sleep
Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #15 am: 5. Nov 2019, 12:08 »
Would it also be able to give this balrog a bit of an intelligent behavior such as using the fly to get to its target, setting itself abalze when engaging it, using roar/fire when surrounded by many units?
Come chat Edain on Discord: https://discord.gg/CMhkeb8
Questions on the Mod? Visit the Official Wiki: http://edain.wikia.com/

FG15

  • Administrator
  • Ringträger
  • *****
  • Beiträge: 5.268
Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #16 am: 5. Nov 2019, 13:44 »
Up to a certain degree yes.

dgsgomes

  • Pförtner von Bree
  • *
  • Beiträge: 75
  • "If by my life or death I can protect you, I will"
Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #17 am: 6. Nov 2019, 10:48 »
FG15, can Durin's bane be summoned inside of a Castle with gate? Also, can it pass through Lothlorien's bases elevated bridges? Can it attack castle gates without attacking walls? Can it fly from the outside to the inside of a castle?
(for all these questions, the balrog would work as an AI)

I'm asking this because I'd like to understand the coding limitations more before proposing something

FG15

  • Administrator
  • Ringträger
  • *****
  • Beiträge: 5.268
Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #18 am: 6. Nov 2019, 10:58 »
Don't really know most of these, haven't ever used the Balrog after the change to the BfME1 building system.

From what I remember from playing BfME1, the Balrog has to be summoned outside castles, can't move through gates (he is too big), can destroy walls and gates and can fly over walls.

As I wouldn't really know the actual limitations until I'm doing some work on the Balrog (and even then I'm often able to circumvent some of those), just propose something and I will intercept, when something seems clearly impossible to me.

dgsgomes

  • Pförtner von Bree
  • *
  • Beiträge: 75
  • "If by my life or death I can protect you, I will"
Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #19 am: 6. Nov 2019, 18:06 »
Okay, I will make a full proposal; to do this, as I don't know for sure, I will suppose that the Vanilla's summoned Balrog lasts from 1 minute before vanishing only for time ratio reasons

1- The Balrog would be summoned the same way as in Vanilla
2- It would not be controlled by the one who summoned it instead, it would work as an A.I. agressive to any player's unit that crosses his path
3- It would last for double the amount of time that it lasted before vanishing in Vanilla to compensate it's destructive power for not being player controlled - in my logic, it would last for 2 minutes for time ratio reasons

4- As soon as the Balrog is summoned (appearing from the ground the same way as in Vanilla), it would use the ability Scream to make a terror out of it's appearance to everyone arround it; after that, it will atack the nearest priority target (unit or hero)
5- When it's timer reaches 15 seconds, Durin's bane would use his Fire Whip ability in the nearest priority target (unit or hero), and would continue attacking the nearest priority target after that (unit or hero)
6- When it's timer reaches 30 seconds, the Balrog will head to the closest enemy's camp/castle, which it would reach using the Wings ability
7- Right after reaching a base by flying, it would use the Ignite ability, and right after that it would use the Breathe Fire ability in the nearest priority target (building); after that, it will continue attacking the nearest priority target (building)
8- When it's timer reaches 1 minute, it would use Fire Whip in the closest priority target (unit or hero); after that, it would continue attacking the nearest priority target (unit or hero)
9 - When Durin's Bane timer reaches 1 minute and 15 seconds, it would use the Scream ability; right after that, it would continue attacking the nearest priority target (building)
10 - When it's timer reaches 1 minute and 30 seconds, it would use Ignite again and, right after that, would keep attacking the nearest priority target (building)
11- When it's timer reaches 1 minute and 45 seconds, it would use Fire Whip in the closest priority target (unit or hero); after that, it would continue attacking the nearest priority target (unit or hero)
12- When it's timer reaches 2 minutes, the Balrog would finally vanish

As you can see, the idea is to make the Balrog highly destructive both against buildings and units, as well as to make it dangerous even if you know what is coming next and with an A.I. that is not easily cheated; for example, even though you know that after 30 seconds of appearance the Balrog will head to your base, there is very little you can do to absolutely prevent it's destructive capacity in such a short amount of time - but not everything is lost, as having heroes with great capabilities, such as a levelled up Gandalf, may prevent you from massive destruction!

Walküre

  • Edain Unterstützer
  • Hoher König von Gondor
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 4.706
Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #20 am: 8. Nov 2019, 00:21 »
I reckon it has been a very wide-ranging discussion, and the fact of it being related to future content, pleases me even more. I can really sense the great anticipation that the Goblins always instil in people. Good thing, I say! ;)

Anyhow, I tried to follow the salient sections of this thread of ours and read into anyone's objectives or motives, although I confess that some parts I have perhaps missed completely. Nonetheless, I am reading The Lord of the Rings, at the moment, and have recently had the pleasure to go through the tense pages of the Fellowship's misadventures in Moria. Starting from such a premise, I would really like to give the debate a definite input, and then make it turn towards an even more unique direction, if you permit me.

1. First comes a very general question of mine: why do we need the Balrog to assume the role of neutral, faithless, and unbound enemy? Why do we have to turn him into, for lack of better descriptions, a 'game hazard'?

That is exactly what I feel like questioning, being it one of the major pillars which sustain several previous proposals and arguments.

While exploring the books deeper and deeper, the only official source, I never got the slight impression that Durin's Bane was so loose and untameable a threat for all the parties involved (Orcs and heroes). Actually, to my utter surprise, the fiery demon we all came to dread, seems to take a defined leading role among the lesser creatures he finds himself surrounded by. Not only is his arrival in the chamber cheered for by Goblins (he makes his appearance earlier, in the books), but the same swarm of foes are subsequently seen jeering and shouting against Gandalf, during the famous duel atop the bridge. Last, but not least, the Balrog is incontrovertibly evil, whether he be in league with other usurpers or not. As far as I grasped from my read, even if not directly affiliated, a sort of tacit consent or agreement between Orcs and Morgoth's blazing servant is quite tangible to be noticed (packs of Goblins chase the Fellowship even unto the western boundaries of Lothlórien).

Given the apparent status of the said demon as a force for evil, it would be pretty naïve to waste his potential. In other words, it is my opinion that taking the Balrog away from the player will not do any good; we have played with him for ages, making full use of his impeccable set of devastating abilities. He was never meant to be a side-feature of the game, nor an ornamental embellishment.
The Misty Mountains faction is supposed to include every peril, beast, Orc, and monster crawling either on or under those peaks. The Balrog does belong to the context in which he happens to be a part of.

2. Concerning the constructive aspect of my general consideration, there might be another path we could choose to proceed on. A more insidious route, yet indubitably much more creative.

The Balrog ought to stay as the playable calamity we have come to know throughout the eventful years of the BFME series. Be it a final spell or not, there is an ulterior candidate that would make for a dreadful, non-aligned concept...

Zitat
"Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day."
Gandalf the White



The Nameless Things are one of the darkest riddles of Middle-earth. They are briefly mentioned by Gandalf in his recounting of the battle against Durin's Bane, from the utmost low to the highest top of the mounts, and they are not addressed anymore thereafter. The two Maiar fell in the immense chasm of Moria, down to the deepest recesses of Arda itself, which had not been mined by Dwarf, Orc, or wicked entities of any sort. There, the wizard told the Three Hunters that gigantic tunnels had previously been excavated by some 'Nameless Things', which Sauron himself has no knowledge of. Primordial creatures, as old as the very world, inhabiting the abyss even prior to the coming of the Ainur, whose ignorance of their existence indicates that, as the text infers, this mysterious kind could represent an imperfect by-product of the Music, which no Angel was directly involved in and which most likely stemmed from the original discord in the melody.

Gandalf appears quite loth to go into plainer details; almost terrified, since, in his words, reporting more of those secrets would 'darken the light of day'...

If we are to piece everything together, I would say that we are dealing with primeval horrors. A ruined, marred, and antique monstrosity, albeit taking neither side in the conflict between light and dark, which makes them a good deal more interesting. Neither benevolent nor malevolent by nature, despite being one of the most lethal species one could find in the lore. An unwelcome experiment that Eru only knows about, perchance?



If you see a possible scope for proposing another ultimate or tier-3 spell, I would be more than glad to craft a concept fashioned on such obscure fragments. As you may know, referring to the vanilla vision of Goblins themselves, there are still a few gaps of missing canonical material that we might fill in with official book-lore.

Speaking about animations and models, do not we already have an abominable earth-gnawing worm at hand? Like many times before, we had better use extant content in the best of the ways. There is a chance to come up with something extremely innovative. Needless to be reminded, we would not be compelled to lose control of the Balrog, in such a scenario.

What say you? :)

dgsgomes

  • Pförtner von Bree
  • *
  • Beiträge: 75
  • "If by my life or death I can protect you, I will"
Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #21 am: 8. Nov 2019, 21:42 »
You are right, the Balrog is definitively evil, just like the goblins. However, 2 things must also be considered. First of all, evil creatures often are corrupt, treacherous and hostile even to each other; this is shown, for example, in the confrontation between orcs and uruk-hai, orcs and other orcs, Azog and his subordinates. Secondly, the Balrog is a far superior beast compared to the goblins, which are weak and easily expandable, so I wonder... Why would Durin's Bane side with such irrelevant creatures?

It's very different from Shelob and the Mordor faction, for example; it seems that the giant spider and the Cirith Ungol orcs have something like a pact of no aggression/mutual benefit - and even if they did not have this "relation", Sauron, the central figure of the whole faction, is a much superior being (even more than Durin's Bane) that could easily demand an allegiance from Shelob if that was his wish. This situation does not occur in Misty Mountains, which is centered in the figure of Bolg, a creature that is definitively irrelevant near the Balrog of Moria.

On the other hand, one might say that "oh, through your logic there is no sense for Smaug siding with Misty Mountains". That makes sense, but only partially; Smaug is not only a very proud creature, that the goblins would definitively flatter, but also a dragon - so he lusts for gold more than anything else. That is why the greatest calamity would side with the goblins: they have what to offer in exchange of the dragon's allegiance - and it seems that this concept was repeatedly discussed in the poll about Smaug's role on Misty Mountains here in MU.

Well, all that said, that is why it makes sense for Durin's Bane to be agressive to all beings and non subordinate to anyone.

-----

About your proposal of associating the "nameless things" to the Wyrm's concept in a single spell, I have to say: go ahead! I wanna know your thoughts about it, of course! I've created a poll about my initial ideas for the upcoming Misty Mountains' spellbook; I encourage you to detail your proposal there  :)

Walküre

  • Edain Unterstützer
  • Hoher König von Gondor
  • ***
  • Beiträge: 4.706
Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #22 am: 10. Nov 2019, 01:10 »
I'm on my part thankful for reading your and anyone's feedback, DGS. It's always a pleasure to liven the atmosphere of the forum and to bring warmth for the cold autumn, as well. Of greater note, we are debating content that is to undergo serious changes in the time to be. Certain scattered threads and sketched proposals have already been showcased to the public, here; the next step would be to somehow reconcile every effort of ours and prepare the ground for an ensemble, holistic plan for Misty Mountains spells. I'll elaborate more on it in more appropriate places. Thanks for having rekindled interest around the topic, anyway :)



Well, I won't really bore you with further ado on my personal thesis. The kernel of the whole argument is twofold, I say:

1. Some aspects of your remarks I agree with. The Evil makes ruthless use of a myriad of servants; worthless serfs in the eyes of their lieutenants or chieftains (let alone Ringwraiths or Sauron himself). I also second the point you made about inherent treachery among beings that seem to have absorbed faithless tendencies in their bloodstream, since the very beginning of their wretched life. Tolkien himself doesn't forget to often remind us of said natural sin of Orcs and akin creatures, which neither choice nor conscience may reverse. Thirdly, excessive awe, to the point of utter terror, towards their superiors, appears to be a constant in minions' behaviour; the Dark Lord is without a reason worshipped and obeyed by 'virtue' of intimidation and violence, inspiring a sort of cult-like devotion in either ogres or corrupted Men.

Said that, given the Balrog's higher status in the hierarchy (and divine essence, too!), assuming that he might have taken the lead in the deep of the mines, is something I would regard as a no-brainer. To corroborate facts officially, we are just told that by the cited books, where, believe you me, it's more than evident to figure out who actually runs things down under. Moreover, if I were to address the huge disparity of power existing between a flaming old demon and hordes of witless Orcs, that, to me, would be an additional proof that the former happens to hold absolute control over the latter. So, why should he harm his slaves or even work against them?

The last thorny issue is given particular relevance in a game-oriented perspective, in which, as you know, matters are put in a lot easier and intuitive fashion than we are used to otherwise. I suppose there would be loads of people loathing the prospect of not being able to play with their favourite blazing monster from the nether-world, the justification being that he should embody some kind of lawless/uncontrollable calamity (which he is, in a sense, but not at an extreme degree). Forget you not that we are speaking of a final or low-tier spell, with this bearing all the consequences of the case.

2. Yes, I would like to reorder thoughts a bit and craft a more consistent concept involving Nameless Things. I may open a new thread for the occasion. In the end, I will make sure to fine-tune any suggestion with your work on the remaining spells. Wait my coming to your own topic, by the way. I hope we shall be creators and artisans of new worthy ideas to impress the team with ;)
« Letzte Änderung: 10. Nov 2019, 01:15 von Walküre »

dgsgomes

  • Pförtner von Bree
  • *
  • Beiträge: 75
  • "If by my life or death I can protect you, I will"
Re: Balrog in goblin faction
« Antwort #23 am: 10. Nov 2019, 10:56 »
I understood your thoughts about the Balrog's concept; I can call this discussion even, as having Durin's bane controllable or not, it seems that somehow it would be according to the lore anyway; it's more about looking through different perspectives.

That said, yes, I'm looking forward to your feedback on my suggestions; modesty apart, I personally think that my ideas are good, are fitting to the lore and embraces some of the community's demands, but it's always good to refine some things or to change other things for good. Also, as you are a veteran in here, having your support is great.

Lastly, yes, hopefully we can be of great help for the team on this matter  :)