28. Mär 2024, 18:53 Hallo Gast.
Willkommen Gast. Bitte einloggen oder registrieren. Haben Sie Ihre Aktivierungs E-Mail übersehen?

Einloggen mit Benutzername, Passwort und Sitzungslänge. Hierbei werden gemäß Datenschutzerklärung Benutzername und Passwort verschlüsselt für die gewählte Dauer in einem Cookie abgelegt.


Select Boards:
 
Language:
 


Autor Thema: Spellbook of Misty Mountains  (Gelesen 4897 mal)

dgsgomes

  • Pförtner von Bree
  • *
  • Beiträge: 75
  • "If by my life or death I can protect you, I will"
Spellbook of Misty Mountains
« am: 8. Nov 2019, 15:53 »
As 4.5 is very close and as many of us love the Misty Mountains faction, maybe we should start discussing some topics already, and the spellbook of Misty Mountains needs to have new features, as many of the powers from Vanilla's Goblin spellbook can't be recycled here.

First, I'd like to say that my following proposal is more about initial concepts as well as a compiled of ideas from people from the community; I just thought that giving some ideas would be of help to start thinking about new concepts for the next faction to be released, even though it's release is very far from close.

Before I start, it's important for me to say that I'm making this proposal based on the old updates about the Misty Mountains - and those have possibly changed in various aspects. Said this, I will explain every thought of mine about each spellbook power.


First of all, here is the draft of Misty Mountains' spellbook:
https://imgur.com/QaHL6yw


> Defensive/long term spells:

1- Drums from the deep - Summons a troll drum which gives +20% armor to nearby allied units and makes them fearless.
> The concept of this power is based in Angmar's obelisk power (but with a buff instead of a debuff, and with a fear resistance), is based on the lore and is also based in the fact that there is already a troll drum model in Worldbuilder that could be used.

2- Work Pit - Summons a work pit. Generates small amounts of resources. Work pits cannot be summoned near other pits. Each work pit summons permanently a horde of goblins from Goblin Town every 3 minutes. The player may have only 3 pits at a time
> The idea here is to create a spell which fits a more long term role and that fits with Goblintown, to have a mirror of the spell "7", which will be a reference to the realm of Gundabad (I want the player to have the possibility of using goblins from all Misty Mountain's realms even if he wants to focus on only making Moria's bases, for example). A work pit levels up just like settlements after purchasing upgrades, but they give only half the resources of an equivalent settlement. Each pit will have 3 Goblin Town's goblins protecting it, which will respawn some time after being killed. The summoned goblins won't be plunderers; therefore, they can't steal resources. Lastly, there is a hobbit work pit model in Worldbuilder that could be used.

3- Armed for war - The monsters of the Misty Mountains prepare themselves for war - allows the purchase of armor upgrades for cave trolls and mountain giants.
> Here is why I came up with this proposal:
1- An important thing to consider is that Misty Mountains will not have siege engines, but only monsters that will be used to siege; as arrow fire is such a prevalent feature of sieges, it is important gameplay-wise that this creatures get more resistant to enemy's arrows;
2- I want to make a reference to the Hobbit movies' trolls; I'm not talking about making those deformed trolls from the BotFA with blades on the hands, I'm talking purely about awesome plate armor for these beasts;
3- I think that cave trolls compared to Mordor's mountain trolls will have a -10% armor and damage (as they are smaller) that will be compensated for a +10% movement speed (as they are faster, more fitting to the faction) and the possibility to throw rocks from a short range; both trolls will cost 600 gp. Well, as the cave troll will work mainly as a siege ram for this faction (and as a player should not always have to use an outpost to create giants for sieging), I thought that giving it an armor upgrade for the cave trolls that would give them a + 200% armor against arrows and + 50% health for 400 gp would be a huge deal to make them more useful for sieging.
4- The mountain giants on the other hand are not lesser monsters like the trolls; they are greater monsters such as the ents and the werewolves, so I imagine that they will also cost 1200 gp. Compared to ents, they will probably have very similar stats (but with a weaker armor against arrows, even though with a slightly stronger armor against general damage and stronger armor against fire); also, Lothlorien has access to Treebeard and Quickbeam as stronger or more dynamic long distance siege units, so, to compensate that, I thought that giving an armor to the mountain giants for 600 gp that would give them +50% armor and +50% health would boost considerably the use of these beasts - even more considering the fact that they will only be produced in outposts.

4- Scavenger > Remains the same from Vanilla.

5- The Chiefest and Greatest of Calamities
> There is a poll discussing especifically about this power; for those interested, here is the link:
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,34953.0.html


> Offensive/short term spells:

6- Cave Bats - Summons cave bats. They reveal stealthed units, nearby enemies loose 20% armor.
> Well, it's a spell from Vanilla which fits the lore, the bats can still be controlled; only the debuff was adjusted.

7- Warg ambush - In the selected area, wargs and warg riders from Gundabad will continuosly spawn and chase nearby enemy units
> The concept of this power is based on Gothmog's power to recruit individual orcs to the battlefield; this spellbook power, on the otherhand, will have stronger units that will spawn in greater numbers (but they also can't be controlled and will be temporary)

8- Awaken Wyrm > Remains the same from Vanilla.

9- Summon Watcher > Remains the same from Vanilla.

10- Durin's Bane > There is a poll discussing especifically about this power; for those interested, here is the link:
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,35742.0.html


> Central spell:

11- Untamed allegiance - buildings will be protected by half-troll marauders (now settlements will be guarded by 1 half-troll marauder each and outposts and citadels will be guarded by 3 upgraded half-troll marauders each which will respawn some time after being killed), units produced in the settlements are recruited 50% faster, allows the drake lair to be built and the recruitment of drakes (passive ability)
> Here I thought that the idea behind untamed allegiance was really fitting for a central spellbook spell, but not as it was in Vanilla, because as soon as all lairs in the map were destroyed, the spell had no use; also, because of the fact that Misty Mountains will be able to recruit almost every unit from the creep lairs through settlements or outposts, there was no reason for this power to remain the same way. That is why I went for this new proposal;
- As drakes are the greatest monsters (and therefore will have a price of 1800, I suppose), just like oliphaunts, they should be harder to get, as they are very strong and levelling them up will be very rewarding strategically. That is why this power reflects an interesting idea: by having this power unlocked, the drakes feel like the goblins are worth their support and will fight as their allies.
- The faster recruitment speed for settlements is also fitting for this faction - it does not only consist in spamming units, but in swarming the enemy, quickly producing units that are naturally faster than most of other faction's units.
- About the marauders, I just thought of a way that could implement them just for a nostalgic feeling, but without being an important part of the faction (just as Edain Team wishes) - that is why they won't be controlled and won't appear in larger numbers. Also, I tried to implement them not in a broken way; for example, it will still be possible to harass settlements with cavalry, because a single half-troll will not be able to beat an entire batallion, even if it is unupgraded; however, a weaker/damaged cavalry batallion will not get much done against the marauder.


IN FAVOUR

1. GildorInglorion


AGAINST


GildorInglorion

  • Bilbos Festgast
  • *
  • Beiträge: 7
Re: Spellbook of Misty Mountains
« Antwort #1 am: 9. Nov 2019, 17:58 »
It's a wonderful work. First I thought %50 recruitment speed would be too op but then realised it's only for settlements. Every spell is just perfect. You have succeeded to catch the feel and aesthetic of Goblins.

dgsgomes

  • Pförtner von Bree
  • *
  • Beiträge: 75
  • "If by my life or death I can protect you, I will"
Re: Spellbook of Misty Mountains
« Antwort #2 am: 10. Nov 2019, 11:56 »
Thank you for your support  :)

I will explain the point concerning the settlements anyway just to be clear - I had to make some assumptions in how some of the settlements would work, because the last update about Misty Mountains was in november of 2013 and left some questions open. Well, here is what I thought about each building:


1. Troll Lair: can train Tom, Bert and Bill, generates resources, reduces the cost of cave trolls (2 reduces in 10%, 3 reduces in 15%, and so on - the discount are familiar with).
> I thought that regular trolls should not be trained here, to avoid some nosense spam, to prevent this settlement from being too op and to give a reason for a Troll Cage to exist; on the other hand, as this building gives resources as well as discount for trolls, it will surely be constantly built.

2. Warg Lair: can train Gundabad wargs, generates resources, reduces the cost of Gundabad warg riders (2 reduces in 10%, 3 reduces in 15%, the same thing).
> I think of this building being very useful for early and mid game if functioning this way; Gundabad wargs can be used to rush enemy units in the early game (just as Angmar wolves), and the discount that this settlement provides will be of use in the mid game if the player decides to go for Gundabad, as he can have access to a cheaper and strong cavalry force.

3. Goblin Lair: can train goblin fighters and goblin spearmen, generates resources, goblins near the lair get a +30% damage boost (just like Rohan's farms)
> Differently of the Ruin, which will be in a Moria base and will be used for creating goblin fighters, goblin archers and goblin drummers, in the settlement you will be able to create goblin spearmen (even though they are weak, they can help prevent cavalry harassment in the early game), but as goblins from the lair are more "primitive", in the settlement you won't have access to goblins archers and drummers, and goblins from there won't have access to weapon and armor upgrades (such as scavenged armament).


So, even though +50% recruitment speed might look scary, it will not be accessed from the very start of the game; also, settlements won't be able to build very strong units, they will just emphasize the "swarming" feature of the Misty Mountains.


For those interested, here is the article that inspired these ideas:
https://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-misty-mountains-part-one


EDIT: I just red that the Slave Prison from Goblintown was the building chosen to give discount for trolls; even though it does not make much sense to me, as perphaps it should give discount to Goblintown's own units, I was wrong with that assumption

GildorInglorion

  • Bilbos Festgast
  • *
  • Beiträge: 7
Re: Spellbook of Misty Mountains
« Antwort #3 am: 10. Nov 2019, 17:13 »
It saddens me the faction won't have goblin spearmens in that version too.(They didn't have it also in 3.8.1, but you were able to train them from lairs.) But anyway, if your suggestion will be implemented into the game it would be really cool. Otherwise you can not stand a chance against cavalry armies in the early game. I don't say goblin spearmens can stop cavalries on their own and they shouldn't anyway, I like them weak  :D but at least they can slow the cavalries more and can give them slightly more damage.

I liked the logic behind the troll lair. Massing strong cave trolls would be so bad for the enemy even if it's the mid game or late. I hope they impelement all your works, not just only these.

tolgayurdal

  • Gast
Re: Spellbook of Misty Mountains
« Antwort #4 am: 12. Apr 2020, 11:16 »
Greetings!

This is the rightest place to offer the Misty Mountains spellbook, i think. Actually i am not an expert about the faction but i would like to share my ideas.


Tier 1

•   Dwelt in the Mountains: Target recruitment building recruits a battallion instantly for free.
•   Cave Bats: Vanilla. Dynamic vision bonus and debuff enemies.


Tier 2

•   Drums from the Deep: Enemies nearby the selected Moria passageway fear with the sound for a time.
•   Onslaught from Below: Already explained by the team.
https://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-misty-mountains-part-two


Tier 3

•   Pact of Hate: Passive. Enables Giant and Dragon Lair outposts to produce resources and doubles the settlements' income and guards.
•   Scavenger: Passive. Vanilla. Grants gold for killing.
•   Watcher in the Water: Vanilla. Summons the watcher for a time.
•   Awakened Wyrm: Walküre had a remarkable work about it.
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,35850.0.html


Central Spell
•   The Usurper: AulëTheSmith had crafted outstanding consept for Smaug.
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,34953.0.html


Tier 4

The Balrog has been a mystery due to Edain 4.x. Clearly he is not only too strong for one spell but also the player should not access him whenever he attacks. This does not sound canonicle for his nature. The demon settled in Moria at first and claimed there his habitat after awoke. So it is perfect for ultimate defensive spell as guarding his base from anything else.

But only defensive usage would be a waste for a power like it. If Sauron could dominate the earth, Durin’s Bane definitely would be an attack force on the battlefield. Also his presence is attached through the armies of mountains. The cooperation between them encourges the invasion whole map.
 

Best regards.

Shadowlord

  • Thain des Auenlandes
  • *
  • Beiträge: 32
  • “Farewell sweet earth and northern sky”
Re: Spellbook of Misty Mountains
« Antwort #5 am: 15. Apr 2020, 20:55 »
I think this Spellbook is brilliant at capturing what the Misty Mountains faction is without removing iconic Spellbook powers from vanilla, specifically the Watcher and the Balrog.

That said though, I am not a fan of the tier 4 defensive power being centered around Smaug. While I do like a of lot of the concepts that @AulëTheSmith came up with his Smaug concept. I think Smaug shouldn't be as integral to the Misty Mountains faction as a lot of fans say he should be. Since Smaug even though he's a force of nature, he's never meant to be the leader of the Misty Mountains faction like Sauron is. He's meant to be an ally to the Misty Mountains for his own personal gain, nothing more. So all I would ask would be to replace the "The Chief and Greatest Calamities" power with something else.

Maybe a buffed version of the Onslaught from Below power that @tolgayurdal suggested.

Other than the questionable tier 4 power, your spellbook is rock solid. I approve


tolgayurdal

  • Gast
Re: Spellbook of Misty Mountains
« Antwort #6 am: 15. Apr 2020, 21:54 »
Agreed and mentioned that Smaug does not intend to lead the faction. Also supported Aule's proposal, apart from that you can express all of your ideas (like parts or unlike) freely. I don't blame you for being different, it is another colour at the end.

tolgayurdal

  • Gast
Re: Spellbook of Misty Mountains
« Antwort #7 am: 16. Apr 2020, 18:46 »
Misty Mountains Spellbook Extended

Following the spellbook of Misty Mountains suggestion, there shown up some mechanic problems about implementation. A couple power needs to have additional aspects and more explaination clearly. I have some ideas how can it be at optimum. Let’s empower the spellbook to full potential at last.

Reworked Spells:


The main subject of the spellbook was not enigma to everyone. AuleTheSmith and Walküre crafted outstanding consept for Smaug, as mentioned. But the central spell needs a slight implementation for the faction. The fact is that Smaug is not a chained dragon for Misty Mountains, he acts for his own like Balrog. So the player can not control him all the time, also it might break the balance against other factions. Plus he did not work for the faction at the beginning, he came from somewhere and usurped a place with treasures. Thus the explaination of the power evolves to:


It is not only usage of Smaug of course, he is more needed in the late game. Speaking of which the ultimate offensive spell was defined for controlling Balrog. Obviously if the player does not have the defensive one, this spell becomes completely useless. But it still can be filled by something similar.

Smaug and Balrog share to be potential ally of Misty Mountains armies, the player can use both of them against common enemies. Thus the final agressive spell has a small but efficient change;


With this way the dragon can be controlled without any constraint only for a time. He has following skills that fits of his nature, created by Aule:

https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,34953.0.html

In flight
1.   Landing
2.   Roar of the Beast
3.   Impenetrable Armor (passive)
4.   Wings like an hurricane
5.   Incinerate

On the ground
1.   Flying
2.   Dragon Breath
3.   Roar of the Beast
4.   Greediness (passive)
5.   My Claws are Spears

His abilities are perfect for his role, the building destroyer and mass slayer. As known, the faction hero roster has been explained and these roles haven’t appointed on purpose. But still he has to be temporary even now up to balance.

The question is when the player can use him permanently? I think the anwer is only on his ring form.

The Golden One
1.   Landing/Flying
2.   The Golden Armor (passive)
3.   Hypnotic Gaze
4.   Immeasurable Greediness (passive)
5.   I’m fire, I’m death

He lost his former speed with golden armor but receives more destructive skills instead. Only now the other players can compete against the faction with his full time form.

The Misty Mountains faction should be ready to implement with this, i think. The path of Smaug and Balrog have been finalized upto the spellbook.


Best regards.

dkbluewizard2

  • Wanderer des Alten Waldes
  • *
  • Beiträge: 52
Re: Spellbook of Misty Mountains
« Antwort #8 am: 16. Apr 2020, 21:56 »
This is good, the only thing I am NOT in favor of is that Smaug is just an elevated Summon. He is controlled at the final spell "Natural Allegiance," but this is only for a time. I would like to see Smaug permanent.

Instead of only for a short time, since this is representing a "what if" scenario--Smaug would lead the armies if Sauron ever got a hold of him and would have used him to great destruction in the North. As stated by Gandalf. So as time goes on, Smaug should become the leader and be used by Sauron to implement massive amounts of calamity among the free peoples.

So I say make the last tier spell make Smaug a permanent hero, where he can be controlled until he is killed, and he can be built in the lair once again. That is the only suggestion I have.

But need I remind everyone that the Balrog may work on his own, but he is a general and not a wandering beast--he commanded troops as one of the Seven Chiefs in Melkor's army. So he is capable of leading and commanding troops. This however is not important to the proposal, it is just a lore correction.

Otherwise I am IN FAVOR of this proposal as long as Smaug is changed to being a permanent hero without time constraints.

tolgayurdal

  • Gast
Re: Spellbook of Misty Mountains
« Antwort #9 am: 16. Apr 2020, 22:26 »
I see your points, my friend, truely. It is totally upto ET afterwards. This is the most complicated thing in the game, i guess. Smaug is always problematic for balance obviously. He should be permanent at last spell.

dkbluewizard2

  • Wanderer des Alten Waldes
  • *
  • Beiträge: 52
Re: Spellbook of Misty Mountains
« Antwort #10 am: 17. Apr 2020, 02:56 »
I agree that it is complicated and canonically controversial--but sadly ET had no other alternative. We probably could have avoided and saved ourselves a lot of lore and gaming headach if the Balrog was just implemented, but sadly ET couldn't do this due to his overpowering gaming presence.

I think what has been outlined is as good and close to the lore as we can get. Thank you for all the contribution Tolgayurdal and everyone who participated in the community. Job very well done!

Shadowlord

  • Thain des Auenlandes
  • *
  • Beiträge: 32
  • “Farewell sweet earth and northern sky”
Re: Spellbook of Misty Mountains
« Antwort #11 am: 21. Apr 2020, 01:56 »
The more I think about it, the more I am in agreement with @dkbluewizard2 view about Smaug. Smaug shouldn't be in the Spellbook at all. I don't even think there is a need to have such complicated mechanics behind how you can temporally recruit Smaug at all.

The vanilla Balrog is a fine spellbook power for the tier 4 section of the offensive tree, but I do think the tier 4 defensive power should be something else. Maybe use the Were-Worms from the Battle of the Five Armies film or something else entirely.

tolgayurdal

  • Gast
Re: Spellbook of Misty Mountains
« Antwort #12 am: 21. Apr 2020, 11:38 »
Thanks for feedback. Smaug and Balrog are testing the balance of the faction upto vanilla ideas, i think. I tried to show their best functionality in mentioned mechanisms. I am not against other versatile usages at all, though i am not the one who will implement them. This was just a suggestion, you might offer yours as well.

Agreed about permanency of Smaug after @dkbluewizard2 as stated. But in general, we are away from Misty Mountains and waiting it as the last planned faction.

Best regards.

dkbluewizard2

  • Wanderer des Alten Waldes
  • *
  • Beiträge: 52
Re: Spellbook of Misty Mountains
« Antwort #13 am: 21. Apr 2020, 20:20 »
Let me clarify that I am okay with what is proposed. That is to say that I am okay with Smaug being part of the spell book. If we go with the hypothetical timeline that Edain Team is using for Smaug, then he would become the main leader of the faction and would be a central force.

Just as Gandalf canonically states in the books since Smaug would allow Sauron to recreate Angmar and cause havoc to the kingdoms of the North.

So Smaug being part of the spell book--I am okay with this. Just as long he is permanent am I content with the proposal.

Shadowlord

  • Thain des Auenlandes
  • *
  • Beiträge: 32
  • “Farewell sweet earth and northern sky”
Re: Spellbook of Misty Mountains
« Antwort #14 am: 21. Apr 2020, 21:38 »
Let me clarify that I am okay with what is proposed. That is to say that I am okay with Smaug being part of the spell book. If we go with the hypothetical timeline that Edain Team is using for Smaug, then he would become the main leader of the faction and would be a central force.

Just as Gandalf canonically states in the books since Smaug would allow Sauron to recreate Angmar and cause havoc to the kingdoms of the North.

So Smaug being part of the spell book--I am okay with this. Just as long he is permanent am I content with the proposal.


I see what you mean now about being ok with what is proposed. The problem is, I don't understand what you mean being Smaug LEADING the faction. Since he's been shown to be acting independently from the other factions of Middle Earth. Sure he might join Sauron but it's not like Smaug would be leading Sauron's armies.

We never have an example of Smaug leading an army of goblins, gundabad orcs, or any armies in general. So if you could please clarify. What do you mean by Smaug leading the Misty Mountains faction according to the Edain team timeline? Why would Smaug want to lead them at all? Wouldn't he just be causing havoc on his own accord, and at best the Misty Mountains armies would just use the opportunity to attack their enemies while they're being subdued by a huge red dragon.

Also considering that Bolg is the canonical leader of the Misty Mountains in the lore.  In general why would the Edain team want Smaug to be the leader of the Misty Mountains faction?

tolgayurdal

  • Gast
Re: Spellbook of Misty Mountains
« Antwort #15 am: 21. Apr 2020, 22:13 »
Smaug fills the central spell like Theoden, leader of his faction. The last spell has to be bought for his permanency according to proposal. But this topic has never confirmed by team, so there is no availability.

Canonicly Smaug is not intended to lead faction, there are other heroes capable to do that which might be Balrog through spellbook. As stated this is not reliable source for investigation.

dkbluewizard2

  • Wanderer des Alten Waldes
  • *
  • Beiträge: 52
Re: Spellbook of Misty Mountains
« Antwort #16 am: 22. Apr 2020, 07:44 »
I was saying canonically speaking and going by the hypothetical timeline--Smaug would be leading the faction of the Misty Mountains like Glaurung did, not because he wants to, but because Sauron is ordering him to.

It is like Morgoth telling Glaurung or Ancalagon to go and lead his armies--I mean mostly they would be content to sit on their pile of gold.

But Gandalf always feared that Sauron was going to use Smaug in a way to really mess up the kingdoms of the north.

This is what I was saying by Smaug being the central spell--it is in a hypothetical timeline where Sauron would have ordered Smaug to lead the armies, just as Morgoth ordered Ancalagon.

This is why Smaug fits the central spell. That is all that I was saying.

Shadowlord

  • Thain des Auenlandes
  • *
  • Beiträge: 32
  • “Farewell sweet earth and northern sky”
Re: Spellbook of Misty Mountains
« Antwort #17 am: 22. Apr 2020, 19:32 »
I was saying canonically speaking and going by the hypothetical timeline--Smaug would be leading the faction of the Misty Mountains like Glaurung did, not because he wants to, but because Sauron is ordering him to.

It is like Morgoth telling Glaurung or Ancalagon to go and lead his armies--I mean mostly they would be content to sit on their pile of gold.

But Gandalf always feared that Sauron was going to use Smaug in a way to really mess up the kingdoms of the north.

This is what I was saying by Smaug being the central spell--it is in a hypothetical timeline where Sauron would have ordered Smaug to lead the armies, just as Morgoth ordered Ancalagon.

This is why Smaug fits the central spell. That is all that I was saying.

Thank you for clarifying. I wasn't sure before what you meant being Smaug leading the Misty Mountains, now I see where your coming from.

While I am still off the mentality that Sauron would be fine with Smaug going on a rampage on his own, and ordering Bolg to lead the armies instead. Since Smaug is a 100 armies worth of fighting power and he wouldn't need an army to back up him, but rather insure there aren't any survivors left. You do bring up a good point with your Glaurung example.

I am still not sure if the ET is truly going with this hypothetical timeline concept, I feel like if they did, they would have given Smaug a far larger role in the faction I.E Sauron and mentioned that in one of their earlier posts. Like giving him an innate ability to boost the effectiveness of buildings in the vein of the Influence of Sauron. I can be wrong.

If the spellbook was designed with this hypothetical timeline in mind, then I am fully in favor of it. But I still feel strongly that if the Spellbook didn't consider this hypothetical timeline, that Smaug's presence shouldn't be in it at all, but rather have a central power revolving around Bolg, or one of the mechanics of the Misty Mountains in general.

tolgayurdal

  • Gast
Re: Spellbook of Misty Mountains
« Antwort #18 am: 22. Apr 2020, 21:59 »
As a part of this consept, i already expressed my thoughts about Smaug before. The truth is that when ET decided to add Smaug into the faction, the balance and ring mechanic had not been clear, i think. The proposal is an only suggestion after all, its role is only reference (i avoid even given the most of numbers). Also when it comes to lead the faction, Bolg might be the rightest choise especially during prefered timeline. But it does not mean Smaug leaves, he is a force of MM, maybe the most dangerous one in the faction. It is more important that the way provided maximum efficiency in the faction afterwards.

Anyway, as long as the details comes forth, i will try to feedback almost every opinion.

Best regards.

dkbluewizard2

  • Wanderer des Alten Waldes
  • *
  • Beiträge: 52
Re: Spellbook of Misty Mountains
« Antwort #19 am: 22. Apr 2020, 23:13 »
You know I am grateful for the ET and any contribution they do for the MM. I once proposed something that would have made all parties happy.

Like the Dwarfs, I proposed two factions for the Goblins (Misty Mountains and Iron Mountains)

The Misty Mountains would have had everything that they said: Trolls, Goblins from Goblin Town, Moria, Gundabad and the wild etc. But the Goblins could switch out to the Iron Mountains like the Dwarfs with Ered Luin, Iron Hills, or Erebor.

I had Smaug the leader of the Iron Mountains as the mass slayer, King's Bane (the Cold Drake that killed Fror and Dain I) as the Tank, and then I had several orc/troll like heroes.

The main difference between the two factions was the monster build. While MM could utilize Giants, Trolls, and Ogres--Iron Mountains could utilize different dragons.

I had the Balrog leading the MM faction and I had Smaug leading the IM faction.

Unfortunately nobody wanted this but I felt that this would have solved a lot of headaches and added another evil faction.

I like whatever the ET does but it outstands me that such lovers of the lore who are Tolkienists negate the most epic part of the books which is canonical.

That is to say the Balrog and Gandalf's fight. If it had not happened then Rohan and Gondor could not have been saved by Gandalf. Saruman would not have been overthrown, and the Fellowship would have been killed. The Ring would not have made it any further than Moria.

Gandalf's sacrifice is one of the most epic and beautiful things about LOTR, and this process is repeated canonically with Aragorn at the Black Gate, Boromir at Amon Hen, and Frodo at Imladis ("I will take it!").

I feel like not including the Balrog as the faction leader is a canonical mistake, but in the end no amount of stating the obvious and pointing this out makes a difference.

Shadowlord

  • Thain des Auenlandes
  • *
  • Beiträge: 32
  • “Farewell sweet earth and northern sky”
Re: Spellbook of Misty Mountains
« Antwort #20 am: 23. Apr 2020, 00:42 »
I apologize if any of my past or future criticisms may have came off as hostile or condescending. @tolgayurdal I respect your proposal and the amount of thought and time you put into it, despite my different views on Smaug. However I feel that I should have expressed this before, but my fear would be by placing so much emphasis on Smaug or the Balrog, the rest of the aspects of the faction like the monsters, the unique mechanics, or even the other heroes. Will become overshadowed as a result, making the Misty Mountains feel less like a culmination of different types of orcs/goblins, monsters and the like. And instead a faction that revolves entirely around Smaug and the Balrog. Don't get me wrong, Smaug and the Balrog are cool as hell. And they are a staple of LOTR and the Hobbit in both the books and the films.

But one of the biggest appeals to me about the Misty Mountains faction is seeing some of the more obscure monsters in the Legendarium get their chance to shine on the battlefield. To me, by making Smaug and the Balrog that prominent, and putting so much attention to them, that myticisim, that concept that makes the faction special, gets lost.

Don't get me wrong, the Balrog and Smaug being faction leaders can totally work, but I would prefer to have more attention on the various monsters (I.E different types of trolls, dragons, wargs etc.) that make up the misty mountains, or heck even the unique types of orc and goblin troops from Moria, Gundabad, and Goblintown. Get the attention they deserve.

@dkbluewizard, I thought about this concept for a while, but the more I think about the intricacies of the Misty Mountains factions in the lore. More and more I think it should have a similar system to the Dwarves, where the player can choose from one of two, if not three factions. With the other two factions being able to come to their aid. Your point is very much valid.

dkbluewizard2

  • Wanderer des Alten Waldes
  • *
  • Beiträge: 52
Re: Spellbook of Misty Mountains
« Antwort #21 am: 23. Apr 2020, 02:38 »
I apologize if any of my past or future criticisms may have came off as hostile or condescending. @tolgayurdal I respect your proposal and the amount of thought and time you put into it, despite my different views on Smaug. However I feel that I should have expressed this before, but my fear would be by placing so much emphasis on Smaug or the Balrog, the rest of the aspects of the faction like the monsters, the unique mechanics, or even the other heroes. Will become overshadowed as a result, making the Misty Mountains feel less like a culmination of different types of orcs/goblins, monsters and the like. And instead a faction that revolves entirely around Smaug and the Balrog. Don't get me wrong, Smaug and the Balrog are cool as hell. And they are a staple of LOTR and the Hobbit in both the books and the films.

But one of the biggest appeals to me about the Misty Mountains faction is seeing some of the more obscure monsters in the Legendarium get their chance to shine on the battlefield. To me, by making Smaug and the Balrog that prominent, and putting so much attention to them, that myticisim, that concept that makes the faction special, gets lost.

Don't get me wrong, the Balrog and Smaug being faction leaders can totally work, but I would prefer to have more attention on the various monsters (I.E different types of trolls, dragons, wargs etc.) that make up the misty mountains, or heck even the unique types of orc and goblin troops from Moria, Gundabad, and Goblintown. Get the attention they deserve.

@dkbluewizard, I thought about this concept for a while, but the more I think about the intricacies of the Misty Mountains factions in the lore. More and more I think it should have a similar system to the Dwarves, where the player can choose from one of two, if not three factions. With the other two factions being able to come to their aid. Your point is very much valid.

@ Shadowlord: Unfortunately ET doesn't want to do that. So if they were to implement stuff canonically to the Misty Mountain faction, I would want the Balrog. But since they don't want to do that, we'll have to settle with Smaug instead.

Which Smaug as a Ring hero is cool and all--it is just that, not canonical. Unfortunately.