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Autor Thema: Nameless Things  (Gelesen 2703 mal)

Walküre

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Nameless Things
« am: 26. Nov 2019, 19:43 »
Zitat
"Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day."
Gandalf the White





I salute you all, kind attendees of the Edain community! After having hinted at the general topic in other miscellaneous threads, now comes the time to put flesh on the bones of what I imagine might interest some, here. Coincidences not seldom bring about favourable chances for rethinking or reshaping extant concepts; on such note, I have recently had the pleasure to read Gandalf's exact words on his eventful duel against Durin's Bane, and it immediately clicked in mind that we could draw from pure canon another conceptual pearl to work on, as we ever strive to perfect details in the best of the ways and fill in any 'lore gap' that one may encounter along the path.

The Misty Mountains faction has long been suffering, as it was initially envisioned during previous Edain eras, from unfocused features, great dispersion of canonical potential, and outright fictional content, serving the latter as patch or filler in the face of scarcity of means and sources. Therefore, however necessary it may have been earlier, future plans revolving around Goblins will reasonably comprise much more consistent concepts (feeding majorly from official founts). This we have been trying to attain so far, by the own reordering of both spells and heroes (in the main), which no other suggestions might exemplify better than those centred on Smaug and the Balrog. Another wave of clever reshuffling consists, I suppose, of all the mechanics tied to the third principal folk that the very faction is made of: hunting Orcs, of the like led by the Defiler (as we know him in Edain) in the Hobbit trilogy.

It should naturally follow that further polishing proposals would function and exist in a similar rationalising spirit. So, getting to the kernel of the topic, today I present you my personal suggestions on an ulterior piece belonging to the greater mosaic.



NAMELESS THINGS

Lore:

The starting quotation makes undoubtedly for a considerably obscure passage to examine. Nevertheless, I believe it does give us enough to speculate about within the frontier of the canons, albeit dealing with strangeness and sheer mystery, and said cryptic insights may actually work in our favour; the less we are told, the fewer unimportant facts or less nitpicking we are going to be bound to. Let us turn it to our good.

Book- and lore-wise, Nameless Things are described by Gandalf the White as ancestral creatures which abide in the deepest recesses of Arda and gnaw at its lowest rocky layers, ending up with boring vast and long caverns/tunnels into the abyss. According to the wizard's limited knowledge on the matter, such uncanny breed of monsters do everything they do in the full ignorance of the upper world, unbeknownst even to the Dark Lord himself, who certainly fears no rival in terms of unveiling tenebrous secrets and discovering foul beasts to enslave for his purpose.

What has eerily unsettled me, is how Gandalf almost recoils and hesitates before the prospect of telling all of what occurred beneath Moria, as though terrified by his firsthand experience (concluding that bringing more reports of it would 'darken the light of day').

Speculations:

1. We can infer that, given the extraordinary alien context at issue, neither the Valar nor their archenemy were aware of non-affiliated monstrosities dwelling in nether-places, which also implies that Nameless Things themselves may have come to be as an aberrant by-product of the First Music (once harmonious melodies had been blemished through discord and malcontent). That is, we are with near certainty speaking about old, immensely old entities, that have supposedly been mining the pits of the earth for thousands of forgotten years. Older than the very Angels, which places them on the newly-crafted world prior to the arrival of the Ainur. Possibly, the eldest bit of lore that we could expect from Tolkien's mythology.

2. Despite their absolute neutrality and them being untouched by outer evil, it is quite consequential to assume that Nameless Things are nonetheless one of the most lethal kinds of abominations which one might ever incur. Without much digressing, they embody ancient, reckless, wild, and feral horror as never others might do in their stead, driven by primordial instincts and by nothing pertaining to a thinking, conscious intellect. If we were to compare that idea of irrational violence to Sauron's cunning and complex machinations, it should strike us quick how so apparent and colossal a dissimilarity exists between the two types of 'danger'. It is, indeed, their very primeval ferocity that renders them a bit of a norm-defying outsider, and a mind-challenging section of Middle-earth's tales which is all the more worth shedding light upon, especially if put beside the more common definition of treacherous malice, widely spread throughout the ages of Eä.

3. Thirdly, just to elaborate more on the previous point, being inherently indomitable and of 'prehistoric' nature, is supposedly translated into very simple forms of life, the adjective signifying raw, basic, and rudimentary beasts. I shall go through this in plainer fashion, later in the presentation. Now, suffice it to say that Nameless Things might be widely deemed less complex than some of the Enemy's infamously-renowned servants, such as winged Dragons, Vampires, or Werewolves. Whenever I look at the latter typology of creatures, I cannot help picturing in my mind the fact that a superior will has first shaped them in an unusual guise and imbued its making with a certain reason to be, whether it be wings to fly huge distances and defy air resistance, fire-breathing capabilities, dreadful claws to rip preys apart, and so on. In other words, the more structured a 'product', the likelier said creation had been given life by the work of magic (pervasive, long-lasting magic), with magic abiding by every rule and custom that Tolkien prescribed.
On the contrary, the less characterised/quixotic they are, the more plausible that no deity or high power has presided over their coming into being. An example to cite would be worms; semi-shapeless, uncharacterised worms, which surely represent life in its former, initial stages.

Ergo: Nameless Things were neither brought to existence by divine powers (other than the One himself), nor do they exist to carry out specific functions. They are known by none, save Gandalf, and they obey nobody. That is the founding premise behind their concept. Stressing their essential spirit will be relevant to the well-conceptualising of this proposal.

In the game:

I beg your pardon for the lengthy disquisitions on lore, but I wanted to get those points across as best as I could. Moving aside from it, it is good time we spoke of in-game mechanics.

Zitat
First and foremost, I think it is by now clear which existing BFME concept I am aiming at: the ground-devouring Wyrm.

That subterranean horror falls magnificently in the aforesaid categories, being itself an excavating beast that inhabits the underworld and happens to come in the appearance of a gargantuan worm, qualifying outlandishly for primordial early-age creature. Furthermore, let us not the following consideration slip off our mind: relying on older material would spare us toil, troubles, and strife connected to the devising of new models/graphics/animations. Why should we trouble ourselves with a quest of little use, when the solution lies directly before our very eyes?



Zitat
The own spell, which is to occupy either the third or final tier, will permit players to summon three or four Nameless Things from the abysses of the world. They will be much sturdier and resilient than how the feature used to be in the vanilla, and their emerging on the surface will be accompanied by a series of quakes and the temporary darkening of heavens, causing units in their vicinity to plunge into despair, and casting a sense of desolation in the other surrounding enemies (whose effects I would like to discuss with the community). In addition, I think it wiser to retain their fire-breathing attacks, unless other alternatives are shown to be feasible, otherwise there would most likely be deficiencies related to offensive capacity and overall impact.
Needless to say, this is to be a double-edged weapon: Nameless Things will not make any difference from friends or foes, due to their untamed and deadly temper, if 'temper' we may say. Players, be ye warned!

Here is my comprehensive suggestion, despite being still a bit sketched, especially for anything that concerns gameplay. Notwithstanding flaws to get right, I hope we shall debate together and allow the thread to join the family of all honourable concepts which have, in the end, found their proper place in the modification. In case we conceived other possible skills to endow Nameless Things with, I would cherish that wholeheartedly.
What say you? :)

dgsgomes

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Re: Nameless Things
« Antwort #1 am: 27. Nov 2019, 12:02 »
Well, being in keep with the lore while enhancing gameplay is always a thing that pleases me a lot. The overall concept of your suggestion has these 2 points, while also recycling features of Vanilla games, which is also a great thing. That's why I already support the core of your suggestion.

However, I think that some things need to be discussed. First, I think that this power will most likely be in the third row, as one of the slots for the final row is already for Durin's Bane (agressive/short term role), and the other will probably be for Smaug (which is not only a very important and desired power for this row, but is also more fitting for a defensive/short term role than the concept you suggested)

Well, considering what I am especulating, the Nameless Things must fit balance-wise to a third row. Said that, as we know that wyrms in game already have a very destructive power, putting multiples of them would be of a massive destruction, even more if they be "much sturdier and resilient" as you suggested. On the other hand, they are Nameless ThingS, so having multiples of them would make more sense, and would surely be more cool  :D

So what I say is, they may be multiple (3 is a good number), but I'm afraid they can't be sturdier than they already are, and their individual stats will probably need a nerf (like their fire damage - or at least against buildings) to make their implementation possible. Even though making them agressive to everyone makes sense (even more than the Balrog), this fact by it's own won't make it possible to make the wyrms stronger without affecting the balance, as the summoner player will always summon the Nameless Things on an enemy base and won't risk putting his troops close to them (and the wyrms lack mobility, so it won't be really that dangerous to units).

Summing up, I think your concept would work better if:
1- This spell goes to the 3rd row
2- The spell summons 3 wyrms, possibly one emerging 3 seconds after the other (I liked the idea of quakes in the process)
3- The fire power of wyrms is substancially reduced (not much against units, but substancially against buildings)
4- The wyrm's health/armor is reduced

Note: most of what I said is considering that the summoning time of the Nameless Things remains the same as from Vanilla



AulëTheSmith

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Re: Nameless Things
« Antwort #2 am: 2. Jan 2020, 00:19 »
I'm of course absolutely in favour of this idea, I really like the connection with the lore of Nameless Things, or at least the few information we have. It's an optimal way to bring another piece of tradition into the Edain universe! Well done, Walküre my friend!  ;)
Regarding the game mechanic, they will be controllable by the player but their attack will affect both allies and foes? (if i have understood well)
I can see no alternatives to the vanilla fire breath, for now. It seems wise to keep the current Wyrms' design as it is  :)

Anyhow, i finally closed once for all the university chapter, so apart of standard working timetable, i should have more time at disposal. I hope to contribute with more ideas in the near future. By the way happy new year!

Canis carcharothias

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Re: Nameless Things
« Antwort #3 am: 9. Jan 2020, 18:48 »
The proposal is very well written, as always Walküre, which makes it more difficult for me to say it, but my vote is a nay. I'll explain why:

We are talking about beings not know even to some of the most powerful maiar, so that, as you say, could even precede their arrival to Arda. They have been nibbling the Ambar probably before other beings like, for example, Ungoliant, stablished on the planet. They should be really powerful, excedingly so, as tolkien uses to do with old things, so I think that they won't fit in the gameplay, much less as a third tier spell.

These beings have not been seen by anyone, ever, except Gandalf and, probably, the Moria Balrog. Having them appear in bright light in the middle of combat would be even more exceptional than seeing a Vala.

We now nothing about them, it's not even neccessary that they look like worms or "something simple": Ungoliant looks like an spider and Tom Bombadil looks like a man with a hat, and the origin of both could be as misterious as the nameless things one.
The worm in the game hints clearly to a modified subterranean dragon, and, after reading above, we could think that that is not important, but dragons are linked to Melkor, so it would be nice to clearly separate a "nameless thing" from this reptilian group, this could be fixed with a model change.

We don't even know if the Watcher in the Water is a nameless thing, as is related to the depths of Moria and Gandalf also doesn't know what it is, so we could be even duplicating on said nameless things. (this could be in conflict with the first argument as the Watcher is a Tier 3).

I would extend more but I'm in a hurry, sorry for this abrupt end. Is a good concept but is way too lore breaking for me.

Cheers!

Julio229

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Re: Nameless Things
« Antwort #4 am: 9. Jan 2020, 19:18 »

I agree with this assessment of the proposal and have to say I'm against the implementation of this proposal. I've explained my grievances with it before, and part of it is summed up really well in Canis' post.

The other part of it for me is the feeling of wasted potential, so to speak, that comes with the proposal. The concept of the Nameless Things has always been a really intriguing one for me, one of my favourite mysteries in Tolkien's writings. It feels like such a mysterious concept, if it were to be represented in game and not to be kept "hidden", but instead showing the creature as it is, should be something more unique and that we haven't seen before. A recoloured (I assume) Wyrm that's been there since BFME II is not really a good fit for how enigmatic these beings are, given that even in Tolkien's writings there is mention of creatures similar to the Wyrms as depicted in BFME, with the Wereworms, so the concept of a giant worm does not really feel like it would fit the idea of something that even Gandalf hasn't ever seen before, and something that scares even him.

So, overall, while I'd love to see the Nameless Things represented in BFME, the concept that brings them in should be one that befits their mystery, and not just be a recoloured, renamed thing that every person that has played BFME knows about, since it would be exactly the opposite of what the Nameless Things are in the very lore.


OakenShield224

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Re: Nameless Things
« Antwort #5 am: 9. Jan 2020, 21:33 »
I agree with the assessments given by Julio and Canis and am against this proposal. I've explained my reasoning before but the main reasons is the wasted potential in both the appearance and in the actual gameplay effect of the Nameless Things. Having something completely unknown to even Gandalf be represented by a recoloured wyrm (something that is identifiable even in the base game as well as having similarities to something from the Hobbit films) just seems disappointing. I understand that your main motive with choosing this design is to reduce the workload on the Team, but I think that, with something like this, it would be better to either go all out on a new design that stands out or to do nothing at all.

Also the concept said
Zitat
The own spell, which is to occupy either the third or final tier, will permit players to summon three or four Nameless Things from the abysses of the world. They will be much sturdier and resilient than how the feature used to be in the vanilla
This would make it a 4x a tier 3 power (but sturdier). Even if that's a tier 4 power, that seems very powerful considering how strong one wyrm can be if used correctly. And yet for it to be anything else would make it even more disappointing as a concept for the Nameless Things, which puts it in the difficult situation of not fitting in anywhere, balance wise.
« Letzte Änderung: 9. Jan 2020, 21:47 von OakenShield224 »