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Autor Thema: Changes to Ring Hero Sauron's abilities  (Gelesen 2423 mal)

The_Necromancer0

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Changes to Ring Hero Sauron's abilities
« am: 28. Jan 2020, 12:34 »
This suggestion stems from a discussion we had on Discord concerning Sauron's Ring Hero abilities. We felt that some of them could be change to fit more accurately with the lore and hopefully to make him a more interesting hero to use tactically. Our ideas and opinion differed on some of the abilities to change and what to change them into so I will leave my thoughts here and I hope does that also participated in the discussion on Discord will leave theirs so we get a maximum of suggestions.

Our first target during the discussion was, surprisingly, Dark Will. The discussion revolved around the fact that Sauron was never really a great warrior considering he was a Maiar. Even when boosted by the One Ring, at the peak of his power, he was defeated by a Man and an Elf. Sure, they were not just any man and elf but two of the most important figures of their time and powerful warriors, however, Sauron was at the utmost peak of his power and possessed the One Ring. Plus, at no point does it say that they were defeated by Sauron's strength at arms. No, as far as we know, both were literally consumed alive by the Sauron's body heat:

Zitat
maybe, the heat of Sauron’s hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so Gil-galad was destroyed

As for Elendil, if we are to believe the unfinished tales, his corpse (read ashes) could fit in a casket small enough to be carried by Isildur. And yet, this feature of Sauron is not present in-game, which is where this proposal's first part comes in. A new passive to replace Dark Will:

Zitat
Fiery Presence
Sauron emanates an intense heat, affecting all of those in direct combat with them. Enemies in a very small area around him take fire damage over time, those strong enough to survive the heat for longer than a few seconds also lose some armor and attack due to the heat.

Such a passive also has the goal of exploring the power of high level passives, something I don't think Edain does a lot. From memory, the only heroes with a high level passive are Beregond and Aragorn. High level passives has always be a concept that really interested me, and I wish to see more in Edain. Anyways, moving on.

Concerning another ability Consuming Darkness, this one we had more disagreements over and since I will be giving my thoughts, which are not those of everyone that was involved in the discussion. My thoughts on this ability is that it is extremely oppressive as it currently is. I love this ability because unlike the rest of knockbacks it actually affects heroes, but I think making it castable is too much, my personal thoughts in that discussion was that this ability should, when activated, still create the consuming darkness but only around Sauron, either then following him as he moves or simply staying on the spot it was initially cast. The second suggestion is made to differentiate the ability more from Elrond's level 10 and differentiate the way players are using it.

Alright, next one. Congrats for making it this far, we're almost done. The next ability we discussed was the heal, Foul Vitality (sick name btw). While I personally didn't see anything wrong with it, we believed it could be enhanced by being modified slightly into a more vampirism ability, a callback to his vampire form. This would still give him the self sustain he needs to endure in extended battles without making him completely unfun to fight against.

Finally, the last ability we thought could be changed was Rain of Fire, it's not really confirmed in lore. We didn't really have any ideas for this one but there is definitely a lot of potential.

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WarOfTheRingVeteran

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Re: Changes to Ring Hero Sauron's abilities
« Antwort #1 am: 28. Jan 2020, 17:34 »
Okay, I really like these suggestions. Especially the idea for a passive high level ability. I think it's great if we manage to make room for more lore accurate powers and abilities in the game. Plus a passive ability based on Sauron literally radiating heat... yeah, it sounds pretty appropriate for the Lord of the Rings

Uhh... I haven't used MU in years... so I guess it's customary to write that I support this or something?

Btw, I swear to god I can't for the life of me figure out how to change my username and put a profile picture on this website... someone please help?
« Letzte Änderung: 28. Jan 2020, 17:39 von WarOfTheRingVeteran »

Only True Witchking

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Re: Changes to Ring Hero Sauron's abilities
« Antwort #2 am: 28. Jan 2020, 19:06 »

While I do think Sauron needs some changes, this feels more like a debuff to me.
Unless Sauron was substantially buffed in 4.5; weakening him would make him basically completely unable to compete with Gorthaur and his different forms in my opinion.

I personally think that the passive ability is a cool idea, but I would rather have it instead of "Consuming Darkness"; an ability which I never really liked and that is not at all supported by Lore.

This could then lead to Dark Will losing the "trample" damage, but still being a factor in showing that Sauron is by far the strongest being in the Third Age(even without Ring, he is stronger than Galadriel or Elrond with Ring); and should he get his most powerful weapon back, the fall of middle-earth could not be stopped (which is the entire point of Lotr  :D).

I would be totally fine with Sauron being a mass-slayer rather than the OP supporter/negative supporter (and good hero-killer) he should be, but I think if he loses Dark Will he should be able to compete much more against heroes in normal mode.
Gil-galad, Elendil and unknown amounts of support from Elrond, Isildur and Cirdan are not exactly the same as Haldir.

I will maybe make some suggestions in the future, I had a half-finished concept lying around somewhere.

Signed,
The Only True Witchking

“In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl. A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face."

WarOfTheRingVeteran

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Re: Changes to Ring Hero Sauron's abilities
« Antwort #3 am: 28. Jan 2020, 19:43 »
Zitat
Avatar: Upload image on image host site (like imgur or abload), not larger than 120*150. Copy "Direct Link", put into the correct place in your profile.

The Username can only be changed by the Team now, there is a thread where you need to make a request: https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,34840.0.html

THANK YOU SO MUCH!

I'll change my username when I feel sure I wanna keep it, cause I guess I can't really go changing it all the tame

Ranting Misanthrope

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Re: Changes to Ring Hero Sauron's abilities
« Antwort #4 am: 29. Jan 2020, 01:48 »

While I do think Sauron needs some changes, this feels more like a debuff to me.
Unless Sauron was substantially buffed in 4.5; weakening him would make him basically completely unable to compete with Gorthaur and his different forms in my opinion.

I personally think that the passive ability is a cool idea, but I would rather have it instead of "Consuming Darkness"; an ability which I never really liked and that is not at all supported by Lore.

This could then lead to Dark Will losing the "trample" damage, but still being a factor in showing that Sauron is by far the strongest being in the Third Age(even without Ring, he is stronger than Galadriel or Elrond with Ring); and should he get his most powerful weapon back, the fall of middle-earth could not be stopped (which is the entire point of Lotr  :D).

I would be totally fine with Sauron being a mass-slayer rather than the OP supporter/negative supporter (and good hero-killer) he should be, but I think if he loses Dark Will he should be able to compete much more against heroes in normal mode.
Gil-galad, Elendil and unknown amounts of support from Elrond, Isildur and Cirdan are not exactly the same as Haldir.

I will maybe make some suggestions in the future, I had a half-finished concept lying around somewhere.

Signed,
The Only True Witchking


   The new ability slot can even be extended into a full Palantir with which Sauron can utilise a new arsenal of powers, it depends on the mod teams eagerness and will, for there are lots of possibilities. Sauron's powers and weaknesses can be altered & transferred to highlight different sides of him.

For instance; Sauron; when he recovers his past powers through Gorthaur Form, gets access to his warrior form and the most of his battle powers, but then he loses some of the advantages of his previous forms and in every form, it feels like a new hero each time you switch between forms and have to read carefully each skill again for micros.
Cuz there's no an obvious correlation/resemblance between skills. I acknowledge that Annatar form should be unique, though.

Once again upon taking the Ring, he evolves into something different yet again, which is an inconvenience gameplay-wise, because, in addition to getting mostly brand new skills, you also lose the track of/bound between his previous form Gorthaur, again.

What I'm saying is that instead of giving each form a completely new style with very few useful abilities that have to be micro-managed to be useful, giving him a complete revision to keep his forms in line from his first form (Necromancer) to the last one (Sauron) could be healthier overall.
Also, we've seen that his shadow and flame forms were basically rendered into a single form in the film, besides, aforesaid changes can be adapted in many ways, like a new full Palantir with new skills or it can be also done through the removal of unnecessary skills (Power of Maiar -> Aura of Flame passive, Healing Skill -> A new unique sustain power) and we/you guys can substitute them with better options, like Necro have said, giving him a new/improved version of darkness aura for his ultimate form can actually be quite fun, like a dangerous darkness that unceasingly emanates from him for x effect till the end of the duration of the spell, again, that would be emphasizing his relation to darkness and maybe even control over fire.

   Yet another example for this is that ''Necromantic Power'' skill that imbues selected troop with necromantic power to explode upon death, but the question is why would you use such a painful spell when you could just go all-in with ur more straight and effective powers, like for someone who sang songs of power and magic, or reanimated old kings of yore, imbuing a single common troop of orcs just to explode upon death is just kinda a bit indirect and lame. 


   Particularly those relatively important parts together provide a better feeling of wholeness and uniqueness.




« Letzte Änderung: 29. Jan 2020, 02:11 von Ranting Misanthrope »

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Changes to Ring Hero Sauron's abilities
« Antwort #5 am: 29. Jan 2020, 11:34 »
My original intent was not to balance Sauron, but rather to give him a more interesting mechanics. Dark Will is very cool but it's basically a one click "kill everything" button.

It is true that removing Dark Will is a debuff on the short term, you won't be able to suddenly gain value by clicking a single button. However, if the passive is properly balanced in terms of damage over time and debuff it will actually be a buff in the long run.

The reason for that is simple: that passive is on all the time. With dark will, the second you click the button you gain huge value, but then it runs out and then there's a cooldown. Dark will lasts for 30 seconds, that's about the average duration for a buff, you also have to factor in animation time, movement time, ect... That's a lot of time during which dark will isn't getting value, compared to a passive which provides value all the way from the start of the fight to the end.

All you have to do is be more careful about your positioning. Sauron will still be a mighty force to be reckoned with, you could remove every single ability but his "Lord of Mordor" passive and he would still be a force to be reckoned with.  [ugly]

Just a side note, I wouldn't say Consuming Darkness is unsupported by lore. Sauron was a great sorcerer, while there is no bit confirming it or mentioning his ability to throw his enemies off their feet I don't think such a spell is out of the realm of possibility. We do however know that Sauron was never really much of the warrior, most of his power coming from his nature as a Maiar rather than personal skill at arms.

« Letzte Änderung: 31. Jan 2020, 00:31 von The_Necromancer0 »
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The_Necromancer0

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Re: Changes to Ring Hero Sauron's abilities
« Antwort #6 am: 31. Jan 2020, 00:30 »
An addition to this proposal based off a previous suggestion, Dark Will could still exist in Sauron but instead of being triggered by clicking a button it would be triggered by casting Power of the Past Ages back onto Ring Hero Sauron. Currently, you can cast the ability on him but the only effect is a few lightning, technically that is still a use but when you compare it to something like Galadriel's Tier 3 powers where you either get a mighty tornado or a huge buff it seems a bit weak.

In addition, this will give the spell more strategical value, as currently you can easily save this spell to cast it in the case Sauron or Gorthaur dies without much opportunity cost. With this additional function you will have to carefully consider the value of you can gain from Dark Will and how risky it is for Sauron to die.

Finally, this, I hope, erases some of the concerns people had. Dark Will remains and the passive is still implemented. After all, Power of the Past ages is a fitting reason for Sauron to suddenly become much more powerful.
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Only True Witchking

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Re: Changes to Ring Hero Sauron's abilities
« Antwort #7 am: 31. Jan 2020, 16:11 »
I think that's an excellent idea.
Not only would it require more strategic thinking, but also give "Power of the Past Ages" a purpose after you get The Ring (something I really liked in Edain 3.8.1).
“In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl. A great black shape against the fires beyond he loomed up, grown to a vast menace of despair. In rode the Lord of the Nazgûl, under the archway that no enemy ever yet had passed, and all fled before his face."

Walküre

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Re: Changes to Ring Hero Sauron's abilities
« Antwort #8 am: 6. Feb 2020, 13:55 »
Passive abilities never cease to fascinate me, in a way. There's something in their long-term, pervasive nature which seems to tell a lot about the relative hero whom the feature has been granted to. Even more so, when we enter the realm of ultimate heroes, or Ring heroes; I don't deny that the proposal therefore interests me a great deal.

So, if suggestions tend to lean on a passive, level-10 power, I would be wholeheartedly for it. No doubts. Furthermore, as I read above, the current Dark Will would be put to better use as a 'bonus effect' via Sauron's spell, thus following in the legacy of Galadriel and her tailored spells themselves. I suppose it would be fair game, if these two titans were to become the sole ones boasting such a possibility.

As for the concept itself, I'm just a bit worried about its actual display and potential on the battlefield. Doesn't his fiery form (the Necromancer) already function similarly, by scorching near enemies through his incandescent wave? Perhaps, we might widen the purpose of this change and mine the character's own lore even deeper, so to adjust the prospective ability to both context and need. Anyway, I look forward to other people's inputs.