Dúrin's Bane: A reimagining for the iconic spell

[Julio229]

Hello there!

A few months ago, I devised a concept for a reimagined implementation of the Balrog in the game. I didn't initially mean to post it as a suggestion, but thanks to the encouragement of my fellow Wikia team members I decided to improve on it and post it as an official suggestion for the Misty Mountains spellbook, once the gobbos roll around  .

So, without further ado, here it is:

Tier 4 spell for the Misty Mountains: Dúrin's Bane



On buying the spell, it unlocks a new hero: Shaman of Bane, and a spellbook power to summon the Balrog, that is hostile to everyone, temporarily. The Balrog can only be summoned near the Shaman of the Bane. (Necro's idea: The Balrog can be summoned even when the Shaman of the Bane is not on the field.)

At this concept's core is the idea that the Balrog is not on the side of the Goblins at all, and is instead a force that will obliterate anyone that dares to stand in its path. The Shaman of the Bane, through its skillset, will be able to use several abilities that can allow the Misty Mountains player to direct the Balrog's path of onslaught, but if the player is not careful enough, the ability can hinder the player himself, granting an element of risk-reward to the Balrog that I feel fits its nature a lot.

The Shaman of the Bane's skillset is as follows:

Level 1 – Shaman of the Bane – The Shaman of the Bane is one of Moria's most prominent commanders, purely because of the craftiness and boldness he has displayed at manipulating the fell creature that dwells in the depths of Moria: Dúrin's Bane. When the Shaman of Bane is recruited, the Balrog will be summonable from the spellbook. He is hostile to everyone and will move randomly. Activate to create a decoy point, that will debuff nearby enemies by a small amount and deceive the Balrog, leading it there, attacking anything in its path, including the Shaman himself, and also granting two levels to the Shaman of the Bane each time it is used.

Level 3 – Blocked paths – The Shaman of Bane orders a troll to bring down a column, blocking a path temporarily so the Balrog won't go through it. Also knocks back enemies directly below the area where it is activated.

Level 5 – Bring the prisoners – The Shaman orders the goblins to drop some dwarven prisoners on an enemy building, creating a decoy point there. The Balrog will fly there and obliterate the building and keep attacking the area surrounding it.

Level 7 – Hellfire – The Shaman creates an illusion of a dwarven army in a selected place, making the Balrog go over there rapidly and breathe fire in a big area, killing the enemies there.

For this ability, there are two options for the Balrog to travel to the destination: either flying or igniting while gaining a speed buff. The main con for flying is that it'd be too similar to the Shaman's level 5 ability, while igniting, which differs from flying a lot and fits quite a bit, could make it much easier to dodge the fire breath.

Level 10 – Deal with the Dark – For a cost of 2000, the Shaman will make an offering to the Balrog, upgrading the spellbook power for a single use. This will make it so the Balrog is on your side when summoned. Its timer, however, will be shorter than the neutral Balrog's.

The Balrog's timer while summoned as hostile to everyone would be slightly longer than usual, to allow the Misty Mountains player to try and make full use of it, and to make it a more relevant force on the battlefield. His timer while controlled would be the usual short Balrog timer, to avoid it becoming OP since it'd now be in the player's hands for a short time, ready for the Misty Mountains player to make use of all its capabilities.

When the Balrog is under the player's control, it'd have the abilities it used to have in 3.8.1. I consider them to be very fitting, and I see no real need to change them.


All in all, I think that this may be a suitable reimagining for the Balrog spell, given the idea of making every spellbook power unique that started with every spellbook's rework in 4.5, and that will add a lot of flavour to the Goblin faction once it is released.

I hope you enjoyed this concept, if you have any suggestions or feedback, feel free to post it  !

Credit:

- My fellow Edain Wikia team members, for helping with fine-tuning the concept and encouraging me to post it 

In favour:

1. Oakenshield224
2. Captain Corrigan
3. Trondheim
4. Strider
5. CaptainChunk!
6. Seleukos
7. Necro
8. Gandalf7000 (Thrandy on Discord)
9. Smeargollum
10. Fredius

Against:

[The_Necromancer0]

Having discussed this topic in length with Julio, I am of course in favour of this change. I believe it satisfies very well both the lore requirement which stated that the goblins and Balrog co-habited but didn't really interact nor willingly aided each other and the game engine requirement of the Balrog only making short appearances because of the processing load he represents for the game as well as being an interesting mechanic. There were a couple of ideas Julio and I disagreed on, I still very much like this concept and fully support it but I just wanted to give my 2 cents:

Shaman of the Bane - I think the Balrog should also be summonable even when you don't have the Shaman, this presents a strategical choice for the player as they can either summon the Balrog as soon as they purchase the power but lose out on a lot of potential damage or wait for the shaman to be recruited. This also applies for when the Shaman is killed, does the player wait to revive him or does he uses the power straight away potentially catching their opponent off guard. I also think the Shaman shouldn't need to level up, because of his status as a tier 4 power, he should come out of the pit at level 10 and with all his abilities unlocked, reducing the micro investment required for what is already an expensive spell.

Hellfire - This tweak is purely a visual change, and also because of my personal belief that orcs have nowhere near enough magical skill to fool a Balrog. But instead of an illusion of Dwarves, the Shaman should summon a large army of Golbins dressed in dwarven rags.

That's all I would personally change, it's not necessarily better it's just a different take on Julio's base concept. I really hope this suggestion gets implemented 

[Julio229]

Having discussed this topic in length with Julio, I am of course in favour of this change. I believe it satisfies very well both the lore requirement which stated that the goblins and Balrog co-habited but didn't really interact nor willingly aided each other and the game engine requirement of the Balrog only making short appearances because of the processing load he represents for the game as well as being an interesting mechanic. There were a couple of ideas Julio and I disagreed on, I still very much like this concept and fully support it but I just wanted to give my 2 cents:

Shaman of the Bane - I think the Balrog should also be summonable even when you don't have the Shaman, this presents a strategical choice for the player as they can either summon the Balrog as soon as they purchase the power but lose out on a lot of potential damage or wait for the shaman to be recruited. This also applies for when the Shaman is killed, does the player wait to revive him or does he uses the power straight away potentially catching their opponent off guard. I also think the Shaman shouldn't need to level up, because of his status as a tier 4 power, he should come out of the pit at level 10 and with all his abilities unlocked, reducing the micro investment required for what is already an expensive spell.

Hellfire - This tweak is purely a visual change, and also because of my personal belief that orcs have nowhere near enough magical skill to fool a Balrog. But instead of an illusion of Dwarves, the Shaman should summon a large army of Golbins dressed in dwarven rags.

That's all I would personally change, it's not necessarily better it's just a different take on Julio's base concept. I really hope this suggestion gets implemented 

Hi, Necro, and first of all, thanks for the support!

About your suggestions, I must say I'm interested in both of them.

- The summoning even when the Shaman is not present does add a very interesting strategical choice (more than one, in fact), and it improves on that risk-reward element that I wanted the spell to have. About the Shaman of the Bane coming already at level 10, I feel that's a good idea, but I am torn of it because of having access to every powerful ability at once (though the level 10 one is locked behind a cost). But it is definitely something to consider!

- About the Hellfire suggestion, it makes sense lore-wise and I think it'd actually be fitting (and incredibly humorous) to see the goblins dressed in dwarven rags, since yeah, orc shamans probably wouldn't have the skill to create illusions in the guise of a whole dwarven army that would fool a Balrog, so yeah, it does fit that it'd be actual goblins doing that.

So overall, i like both points of your suggestion (even though I'm still torn on the recruitment at level 10) and I think they might be a good change to the proposal!

About the level 10, would it make it a bit better if the Shaman got recruited at level 5 instead? That way, the Shaman would be easier to get to max level, while not having every powerful ability available from the start.

[The_Necromancer0]

Level 5 could be suitable as well, I'm not really sure how to approach the problem. My main concern with having to level him up is that it forces the player to invest more time into a Tier 4 power, which already takes a lot of time to get. Many different approaches could be taken, starting at level 5 is one of them, you could also tweak the Shaman of the Bane so it gives 3 ranks instead of 2, reducing the number of times you have to use that ability. There are many possibilities, it all depends on what other people think, is having to level him up too much to ask? Should he be easier to level up? Should the levelling system be removed entirely? These are all questions that should be considered but to which I don't really have the answer.

[Julio229]

Yeah, I can see the problem with the leveling system and there's a lot of choices that could be made in regards to that. I think opinions from other people about it would be nice, since I'm not really sure either

[Trondheim9]

Very nice concept!  I've already said I was in favor, just wanted to offer my two cents.  I think some of the earlier OP elements and questions could be resolved if each faction had a unique counter to the Balrog.  The risk-reward system is great for this concept, so I think something similar for a counter could be intriguing as well.  The idea would be that a specific hero from each faction can reduce a stat of the Balrog (armor, damage, speed, etc) but only while that hero is close to the Balrog.  The hero would also be 25% slower when close to the Balrog (if using a mount, 75% slower or whatever the equivalent would be).  This reduces an OP aspect of the Balrog and presents a dilemma: if you keep the hero close to the Balrog, you reduce its stats, but the Balrog could very well kill your hero.  I was thinking it could be every faction's Ring hero (not in Ring hero form), but I also think every faction's scout hero could be interesting as well.  The Misty Mountains player will then also be wanting to take out that hero to get the max usage out of the Balrog, so he would possibly deploy troops to deal with that as well, further increasing the risk of the Balrog destroying his own forces.  I don't want to make it too complicated, but if the hero is killed, maybe it could add 5 seconds to the Balrog's timer as a reward.  [Perhaps it is too much of a coding nightmare.] 

I guess the feeling I'm trying to capture is "I might have a chance" rather than "oh a Balrog, I'm super screwed".  I feel like the risk-reward scenario from the original concept is not enough.  By letting the Balrog remain very OP (it is a tier 4 spell after all) but introducing some kind of weakness, the gameplay could potentially be spiced up. 

[Smeargollum]

Greetings,
I have to say that I realy like this concept too! As it is very lorefriendly and proboably one of the concept that isn't too bad for the balance, even though it is realy hard to implement a Balrog to a balanced game like edain.
I support Necro's idea of making the Balrog summonable as well before you get the shaman. This would give the player another tactical desicion, which would increase the gameplay even more.
About the level system of the shaman:
I think it would be good if he comes at level 1, becuase so you can increase his effectiness with the time and he is eventually strong the longer the game takes. But maybe it would be good, if you wouldn't have to rebuy him for a lot of money after he dies. That could be a slight handicap when you have to pay a huge amount of money after he died, as it would be logic when he is not a good fighter. So either make him free to rebuy or less expensice each level, as his magic skills increase.

So I am in favor for this suggestion!
I hope you can understand what I mean with my ... not professionell english 

Best regads,
Smeargollum

[Julio229]

Very nice concept!  I've already said I was in favor, just wanted to offer my two cents.  I think some of the earlier OP elements and questions could be resolved if each faction had a unique counter to the Balrog.  The risk-reward system is great for this concept, so I think something similar for a counter could be intriguing as well.  The idea would be that a specific hero from each faction can reduce a stat of the Balrog (armor, damage, speed, etc) but only while that hero is close to the Balrog.  The hero would also be 25% slower when close to the Balrog (if using a mount, 75% slower or whatever the equivalent would be).  This reduces an OP aspect of the Balrog and presents a dilemma: if you keep the hero close to the Balrog, you reduce its stats, but the Balrog could very well kill your hero.  I was thinking it could be every faction's Ring hero (not in Ring hero form), but I also think every faction's scout hero could be interesting as well.  The Misty Mountains player will then also be wanting to take out that hero to get the max usage out of the Balrog, so he would possibly deploy troops to deal with that as well, further increasing the risk of the Balrog destroying his own forces.  I don't want to make it too complicated, but if the hero is killed, maybe it could add 5 seconds to the Balrog's timer as a reward.  [Perhaps it is too much of a coding nightmare.] 

I guess the feeling I'm trying to capture is "I might have a chance" rather than "oh a Balrog, I'm super screwed".  I feel like the risk-reward scenario from the original concept is not enough.  By letting the Balrog remain very OP (it is a tier 4 spell after all) but introducing some kind of weakness, the gameplay could potentially be spiced up.

Hi, and thanks for the support!

About that idea, I think something like that could work, but my feeling so far is that the constant risk that the Balrog player is at if he doesn't manage to direct the Balrog well enough, plus it being temporary, makes it so the risk-reward concept feels like it's well balanced for me. When you get the Balrog under your control, sure, you have a massively useful tool to use, but given the short timer the Balrog would have, I'm not sure it'd be entirely different from what something like the Army of the Dead might be: a tool that will allow the player to deal massive damage for a short period of time, but still not so much as to completely decide the game unless something goes really awry. The rest of the time, the need to constantly keep the Balrog in check so the summon doesn't backfire for the MM player, I feel is enough to keep a good balance between risk and reward. And anyway, it is a tier 4 after all, so I'm not sure if introducing further cons to it would work in its benefit.

Anyway, it might be something to consider, and if more people agree, I'll give it more thought!

Greetings,
I have to say that I realy like this concept too! As it is very lorefriendly and proboably one of the concept that isn't too bad for the balance, even though it is realy hard to implement a Balrog to a balanced game like edain.
I support Necro's idea of making the Balrog summonable as well before you get the shaman. This would give the player another tactical desicion, which would increase the gameplay even more.
About the level system of the shaman:
I think it would be good if he comes at level 1, becuase so you can increase his effectiness with the time and he is eventually strong the longer the game takes. But maybe it would be good, if you wouldn't have to rebuy him for a lot of money after he dies. That could be a slight handicap when you have to pay a huge amount of money after he died, as it would be logic when he is not a good fighter. So either make him free to rebuy or less expensice each level, as his magic skills increase.

So I am in favor for this suggestion!
I hope you can understand what I mean with my ... not professionell english 

Best regads,
Smeargollum

Hi, and thanks for the support, glad you liked it! 

I definitely see the point behind your thoughts on the leveling system. I can agree that having him at level 1 but only having a big investment of money the first time you recruit the Shaman might be the way to go, since apart from directing the Balrog the Shaman wouldn't be all that useful though there still remains the issue of how the leveling should be tuned up so it is feasible to get the Shaman to the max level in a match. Still, I feel like if the leveling is tuned up in the way Denethor's, for example, is, it might not be all that much of an issue, though it's still a tier 4 that'd come reasonably late.

Anyway, overall, I think that might be one of the better ways to go around it, a sizeable (if that makes sense) money investment to start with, leveling him up from level 1, but then not having to pay near as much if the Shaman happened to die.

[Smeargollum]

Another possibility would be that the shaman levels with the kills of the Balrog, similar to the level system of Sauron in 3.8.1 with the Nazgul. But that would mean that you can't use him at all when the Balrog is on cooldown, so I am not sure.
That is another thing: what is the purpos of the shaman when the Balrog is not on the battlefield... can he fight, does he have some kind of support abilitys for other MM creaturs, or is he only usefull when the Balrog is on the battlefield?
And is the Balrog suppost to take damage by normal units, or just heroes, or just special hero atacks like Glamdring or shouldn't he take damage at all?

That are probably questions you haven't thought about, but maybe some other have ideas what would be optimal...

[Julio229]

Another possibility would be that the shaman levels with the kills of the Balrog, similar to the level system of Sauron in 3.8.1 with the Nazgul. But that would mean that you can't use him at all when the Balrog is on cooldown, so I am not sure.
That is another thing: what is the purpos of the shaman when the Balrog is not on the battlefield... can he fight, does he have some kind of support abilitys for other MM creaturs, or is he only usefull when the Balrog is on the battlefield?
And is the Balrog suppost to take damage by normal units, or just heroes, or just special hero atacks like Glamdring or shouldn't he take damage at all?

That are probably questions you haven't thought about, but maybe some other have ideas what would be optimal...

About the Shaman's purpose when the Balrog's not around, i did partially do something for that by giving his level 1 and level 3 ability some sort of effect, as in, the level 1 would give a slight debuff to enemies, and the level 3 would knock them back on summoning, and probably block their way since the column would be a building-esque object that would temporarily block the way (that would be untargetable/non-destructible for the Balrog, and unsure about the rest of units) but I didn't want to make the Shaman too useful on his own, though maybe something else could be added to him, and I'd welcome any suggestions on the matter!

About who can deal damage to the Balrog, I didn't give it that much thought, I admit, yeah  I pretty much assumed the Balrog itself wouldn't be changed all that much, the main change being the Shaman system and the uncontrollable state of the Balrog, so I guess it would still have the same weaknesses the 3.8.1 Balrog had, or maybe something else if it was to be deemed as impossible to kill, or something. A lot of things have changed since then, so I guess that remains to be seen.

Edit: And about the leveling system, that could be an option, though if I recall correctly the team changed Sauron's leveling system partially because of it being bugged, so I'm unsure if it'd be feasible.

[CaptainChunk!]

Hey people,

I had something in mind while reading the Shaman's purpose without the Balrog and wanted to drop it here.

First of all, I agree with a leveling up system because: The power is a tier 4 power and as Julio said, the power is meant to be a powerful damage dealer in a short period of time so, making the Shaman already a level 10 would be something too powerful in my view and also because of the other thing I have in mind for the Shaman, which is:
-A mechanic similar to Sauron, where he has to 2 templates of skills. One template is for the "control over the Balrog" skills, and the another template is for supportive skills to the Misty Mountains units, that would make sense for a leveling up system since a player would get him early in the game for supportive purpose thus leveling up until the power is available to get.
I don't know yet which skills could be added to the second template, or if it's possible to create, so if anyone have something to fix or add about my statements above, please leave your thoughts in it. 

[FG15]

I believe the level 3 spell sounds a lot better on paper than the ingame implementation would work.

Also, what exactly does this hero do, while the Balrog is on cooldown?

[Julio229]

Hey people,

I had something in mind while reading the Shaman's purpose without the Balrog and wanted to drop it here.

First of all, I agree with a leveling up system because: The power is a tier 4 power and as Julio said, the power is meant to be a powerful damage dealer in a short period of time so, making the Shaman already a level 10 would be something too powerful in my view and also because of the other thing I have in mind for the Shaman, which is:
-A mechanic similar to Sauron, where he has to 2 templates of skills. One template is for the "control over the Balrog" skills, and the another template is for supportive skills to the Misty Mountains units, that would make sense for a leveling up system since a player would get him early in the game for supportive purpose thus leveling up until the power is available to get.
I don't know yet which skills could be added to the second template, or if it's possible to create, so if anyone have something to fix or add about my statements above, please leave your thoughts in it. 

About the second palantir with supportive skills, I think that to include something like that and make the Shaman relevant throughout all the match he'd need to be more akin to a regular hero of the faction, and I'm not sure if I'd go that way with him, though if people feel it's needed to improve the Shaman's viability outside of the Balrog stuff (and the small stuff he gets on the level 1 and 3), it's definitely an idea to consider!

On a sidenote to that, I'm not sure about this so don't quote me on it, but I think the team don't want many double palantir heroes in the game, so only a select few like Gorthaur or Mouth of Sauron keep it. Still, I'm not too sure about that, so take it with a grain of salt  .

Finally, thanks for your input!

(I'll also elaborate on the Shaman's viability on the reply to FG)

I believe the level 3 spell sounds a lot better on paper than the ingame implementation would work.

Also, what exactly does this hero do, while the Balrog is on cooldown?

I can see why the implementation could be a bit iffy, specially due to the blocking of paths which could present some problems when playing in maps that have few ways to go against the enemy, if that makes sense. I'd hope there'd be a way to make it work well, but if it is impossible to do then I think it could always be reworked into something else, I believe there's a lot of possibilities in the system that could help finding a replacement if it were needed.

About the second question, about the viability, I added some small perks to the level 1 and 3 abilities to improve the viability of the hero while the Balrog's not summoned, but, as many people have brought up the issue of the Shaman's viability when the Balrog's not in, I feel that maybe more could be added to the hero to make it more viable. Maybe more secondary effects for the level 5 and 7 abilities when the Balrog's not in, or maybe Chunk's idea about a second palantir? I think those might be good starting points.

Thanks for your input, btw 


PD: given people have quite liked the idea Necro brought up of the Balrog being summonable even when the Shaman isn't around, I believe I will modify the concept to include that, since it adds a strategic layer to it that I feel is pretty interesting and wouldn't change all that much as to make the idea less balanced, or whatever. In fact, it probably improves upon that risk-reward element I go so much on about  I'll still keep the original idea too, so both can be debated if needed.

[The_Necromancer0]

There is an argument that could be made to make the Shaman a full hero. Right now he simply exists to work alongside the Balrog, so when the Balrog is on cooldown his uses are reduced since he only meant to act as a way to direct the Balrog while still adhering to the lore aspect of their collaboration.

Misty Mountains currently doesn't have a disruptor hero, it has a lot of heroes that provide support to its units but none that really disrupt the enemy's formation beyond a few abilities such as Bolg's Level 7 or the Defiler's Level 10.  The question would then be whether to stack his regular disruption abilities together with his Balrog baiting abilities or to give him a second palantir.

Although, the Shaman being less useful while the Balrog is on cooldown isn't necessarily bad, it gives your opponent a chance to hunt him down and try to kill him before the balrog comes off cooldown. With the additional effects of the abilities, the MM player will be incentivized to keep him in his army and not hide him at the back of the base.

[Julio229]

There is an argument that could be made to make the Shaman a full hero. Right now he simply exists to work alongside the Balrog, so when the Balrog is on cooldown his uses are reduced since he only meant to act as a way to direct the Balrog while still adhering to the lore aspect of their collaboration.

Misty Mountains currently doesn't have a disruptor hero, it has a lot of heroes that provide support to its units but none that really disrupt the enemy's formation beyond a few abilities such as Bolg's Level 7 or the Defiler's Level 10.  The question would then be whether to stack his regular disruption abilities together with his Balrog baiting abilities or to give him a second palantir.

Although, the Shaman being less useful while the Balrog is on cooldown isn't necessarily bad, it gives your opponent a chance to hunt him down and try to kill him before the balrog comes off cooldown. With the additional effects of the abilities, the MM player will be incentivized to keep him in his army and not hide him at the back of the base.

Yeah, there's definitely pros for going both ways (making the Shaman a full fledged hero or just bundling effects into his abilities)... While I said before I was unsure about making the Shaman a full fledged hero when replying to Chunk, I'm starting to see more of a point to it, though I think both ways could work well and I'm still leaning towards bundling the effects a bit more. Making him a full fledged hero would definitely fill that role that seems like it'd be very fitting for the Misty Mountains (the disruptor role), and make it so he's useful throughout the game and gets a very interesting boon when you get to tier 4... I'm definitely starting to like that idea more  . Though there's a point that could be made about it being a bit harsher on the balance, if that makes sense.

And then, just keeping him as a Tier 4 unlockable and bundling effects into the Balrog deception abilities (like what the level 1 and 3 have right now) can also make the Shaman feel more useful when the Balrog's not around, giving an incentive to the player to keep them on the army and thus giving an opportunity to the other player to take them down, frustrating their intentions for a bit if they were close to summoning the Balrog.

Both ways seem like they could work for me, and I'm definitely unsure on which one to take  so far the concept leans more towards the bundling one, but I'm seeing it as being feasible either way now.