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Autor Thema: a way to balance herospam  (Gelesen 3680 mal)

turin.turambar

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a way to balance herospam
« am: 3. Mär 2020, 23:59 »
According to the current state of the meta, herospam is, to put it bluntly, overpowered.

The main reason for it comes down to a simple fact, that is that the best way to fight heroes is with other heroes (because even the hero killer each faction have performs best if accompanied by other heroes).

To avoid having herospam as a far too good tactic, I suggest a new unit type is added to each faction (or rather, some currently underused units in each faction are "repurposed" and if ALL unit in a faction are already much used, new units are created, but I don't think that will be necessary).

That unit would play against heroes very much the same role the pikes play against cavalry. (and, just like the pikes are suboptimal when it comes to fighting against non cav units, these units would be suboptimal when fighting against standard units). This way you'd have a good old rock scissors paper including heroes as well, with heroes > standard units > anti-heroes units > heroes.

Now to the units that could play that role (probably with a tweaking in their cost and stats so they become stronger vs heroes and weaker vs units should that be useful), per faction. (some are currently empty, I'll fill them if people give ideas and enjoy the suggestion :

Imladris

The dunedain, that are currently barely used, would be perfect for that role imo. It makes sense lore wise, given they're descendant of great kinngs and numeronean , and they also are currently not really useful (at least, not for their troops).

Lothlorien

I'd say the ministrel is currently not used enough, but it wouldn't really make sense lore wise, and that would be a total repurpose.

Alternatively, maybe mirkwood units could be a solution, but they're already quite different from lothlorien unit imo, so I don't really know

Gondor

The dol amroth troops are as it stands rarely seen in gondor, so maybe giving them that purpose would make them actually useful. As for the lore accuracy, they're supposed to be elite troops, trained differently from gondor troops that are more used to a constant struggle against mordor.

(as for arnor, I'd guess the dunedain or high elves could be recruited from the elven fortress, or maybe if the heir to the throne hero decides to go as a ranger, the dunedain could get an upgrade making them valuables herokillers)

Rohan

Not yet any idea, maybe something from the archery range as it currently isn't used at all imo doesn't have much use except for spearthrowers, but I don't really see what troops would play that role in a coherent way.

Dwarves

Not yet any idea, maybe lake-city / dale troops, but to be seen with the proposal for these outpost to be reworked what that would give. And the iron hills outpost units would undoubtly need to have a similar role as well.

Isengard

I heard the berserk weren't very used, so maybe making them deal only single target damage, but potentially heavy damages would allow them to play the herokiller role for isengard. (It IS also lore wise, given they killed haldir in movie).

Mordor

Mordor being mordor, I don't really know, they already have so much possibilities. I'd say the dol guldur outpost could produce these units instead of their free orcs, since it was in the hobbit movies the place sauron almost caught gandalf, so linking it to the anti hero units of mordor would make sense.

Angmar

Not yet any idea, I didn't play them even ONCE since release, but maybe zaphragor is already strong enough so they don't need these troops, but I don't really know.



And now, to get an easy view of the reception, the IN FAVOUR / AGAINST list that follows :

IN FAVOUR


Turin.turambar


AGAINST
!josdos

« Letzte Änderung: 5. Mär 2020, 21:23 von turin.turambar »

Halbarad

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Re: a way to balance herospam
« Antwort #1 am: 4. Mär 2020, 01:58 »
I do see the problem of hero spam too, especially in teamgames. But I don't think that it is that easy, since normal units like battalions of swordsmen won't be able to do significant damage against enemies heroes fighting between their allied units (which are strong against your herocounters).
There are some possibilities that could weaken hero spam:
1. Higher up their reviving prices and time when the hero killed on high level
2. Abilities in general, or very strong abilities like Gandalfs word of power could get a timer when these heroes are being revived.
3. Bound heroes strength to their troops appearance on the battlefield. Angmar builds Hwaldar without even using Hillmen could make them weaker. Same thing with Karsh and barrows and wights. For example:
0 wights or barrows: -50% armor
1 wight or barrow: -40%
2 wights or barrows: -30%
...
5: +-0
6: +5%
...
10: +25% armor

That would lower the effect of gained experience, so that the player who first leveled up his heroes wouldn't automatically superior in all battles between heroes.
To give another idea, I also recently suggested (in the german forum) a new concept for Gulzar, bounding his spells to other sourceres on the battlefield and not his level. Like one sourcerer = one ability. Would be a huge amount of work but in the end it would lower the benefits of some easy herospam.

Coming to troops that should be strong against heroes, I wouldn't go too much on direct damage but also on things, that could weaken enemies heroes. That could be for example
1. Poison that deals damage for a very very long while. Not much damage, but as much damage as there is needed to stop these heroes directly healing themself automatically when outside of combat. It would be pretty easy to counter that for good factions, so it shouldn't be the only way. Dol Guldur Spiders and Gulzars Acolytes could do that (after they exploded), since Angmar and Mordor do already have possabilities against heroes (Carn Dum Swordsmen, Battle Troll with sword).
2. Lowering stopping enemys heroes abilities rechargetime by some passive ability. Could be a sideeffect of Dunadan-Archers ability, although I think that librerians of light should be also good.
3. Strengthen nearby allied units against heroes. Dol Amroth soldiers could do that (they already do have an ability that makes allied infantry stronger, so I wouldn't say that they aren't good, but they could be in that hero-killing role.
4. Lower the amount of experience heroes gain (from killing units or units being killed around them)

Rohan has its officers, Erkenbrand, Grimbold and the other one. One of them could do the job.
Lorien theoretically has Beorns in the EG and silverthorn arrows for the lategame while Isengart berserks should be already good enough for the job.
You could also think about making Ringlo Vale Swordsmen strong(er) against heroes.

Archaon the Ever-Salty

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Re: a way to balance herospam
« Antwort #2 am: 4. Mär 2020, 05:23 »
i tested berserkers against heroes in the past, it takes about 4-5 berserkers to kill beragond..... its not a good unit for that.

turin.turambar

  • Bilbos Festgast
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Re: a way to balance herospam
« Antwort #3 am: 4. Mär 2020, 07:53 »
albarad, thank you very much for the detailed answer.

point 1 was tried in previous and current update, but didn't seem to do much, and keeping on doing so would imho probably lead to more frustration than actual fix.

point 2 : 'm not sure the problem comes from heroes being able to use their abilities right as they come to the battlefield, but maybe thta could weaken them a bit, but I don't think that alone will be enough. (you in addition rarely play to get your heroes killed I'd say)

point 3 could be nice, but I'd rather link it to all the troops rather than a certain kind of troops (mainly to get less work to do, and to handle that way "lone wanderer" type of heroes.) I mean herokillers and faction leaders don't have overall THAT much of a given troop you can link them to. Think for example of gandalf, aragorn, eowyn, the WK etc. etc. Also not sure heroes would still be enjoyable if they're utterly useless without army, so maybe a tiny penalty but nothing too big.

As for troops, giving micro to do doesn't seem THAT annoying to me, plus if there are multiple kind of troops (cav, lancers etc.), you could choose the one most appropriate for the job depending of opponent hero. That's more or less what happens already with monsters I'd say. (the pikes are strong against them even if the opponent is careful not to trample them). If these units were as strong against heroes than pikes are against monsters and as weak against other units than pikes are, they would imo be VERY useful depending of what you're up against.

For the different ideas you have for the troops, I must say they all look good, making these units be good against heroes in more way than just dealing damages. I don't know if the habit is to add them into the suggestion message then or not, still quite new on the forum...

I'd be very much against giving the beorns this role in lorien though, as they're already very strong, so a unit already quite strong that have a cav role shouldn't be the choice to get even more abilities imo. From what I heard, the berserks would indeed need tweaking to play that role, as they're quite weak against heroes as it stands. Ringlo vale seemed to me like they already had a role, but otherwhise why not. (IF that suggestion is implemented, I'd say though that it is important to make the "anti hero troops" be troops playing that role and ONLY that role, so to ease balance, and also make it not a big split up in X different buildings in faction. Reason why I insist troops playing that role must in current state feel underpowered / underused)£.

Thanks again for the feedback.

ljosdos

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Re: a way to balance herospam
« Antwort #4 am: 4. Mär 2020, 11:33 »
I am against making heroes weaker. i do not see a problem with people spamming heroes. Heroes are strong yes but sending hem alone against an army is still suicide. They still cost a lot of money which you wont have when you are trying to build a decent army and upgrade your economy. Spamming them would mean that you just build one unit for 1000-3000 resources and just send them in without care for their survival. Most people who do this lose the game in the long run. Going for your factions heroes is just how the game currently works. If you do not build them you are in a disadvantage against anyone who has heroes. The job of every player is not to feed the enemy and have them level up their heroes faster than you can level up yours. When you have upgrades and can micro your troops , enemy heroes can be killed. You are spending more resources on a hero then on a fully upgraded unit. so it is just fair to have them be strong enough to be (when used correctly) a manace that must be dealt with.

About adding hero countering units/abilities thats something I would be fine with. But in my opinion they shouldnt be passive debuffs but more like an active ability like the uruk hai hunting arrows.

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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Re: a way to balance herospam
« Antwort #5 am: 5. Mär 2020, 00:09 »
Giving units a special strength against heroes won't work unless they have a ranged attack just because of the pathfinding in this game. Single entities can move through units, but battalions can't. Archers can focus fire a single target from afar, so they could theoretically play a role here, but archers have always been troublesome due to them growing exponentially stronger and buffing them againt heroes would only make that worse.

turin.turambar

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Re: a way to balance herospam
« Antwort #6 am: 5. Mär 2020, 08:41 »
ElendilCousin thank you very much for the answer. I'm not sure contact troops (swordsmen and pikemen) wouldn't be useful as well here  (they could eventually take less damage from heroes as well and more from classic troops). If the opponent micro properly, as you say, his hero will probably survive, but that will at least put a bit more pressure on him, and some other troops such as cavalry or archers (anti hero or not) could deliver the final blow.

And concerning archers it wouldn't be a buff but a "repurposing", reason why I tried to propose only units I currently found underused compared to what their respective factions had to offer. So these archers wouldn't be only buffed against heroes, but also rebuffed against standard troops, precisely to avoid a new opness.

ljosdos thank you for the answer. Can I then put you in the in favour list (with the current state of the proposal). I do want to propose alternatives to fight a given tactic, because diversity of gameplay means more tactics, but not nerf herospam, reason why the proposal focuses on proposing alternatives and way to fight it, but not to reduce its strength.

ljosdos

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Re: a way to balance herospam
« Antwort #7 am: 5. Mär 2020, 20:37 »
ElendilCousin
ljosdos thank you for the answer. Can I then put you in the in favour list (with the current state of the proposal). I do want to propose alternatives to fight a given tactic, because diversity of gameplay means more tactics, but not nerf herospam, reason why the proposal focuses on proposing alternatives and way to fight it, but not to reduce its strength.
I am for adding new tactics to deal with heroes. But I do not know if it is possible to implement it without changing how the game currently works. About your repurposing of units idea in its current state I will have to say I am not in favour. Heroic units as hero counters would be a more fitting solution imo. Giving heroic archers some kind of hunting arrow and heroic close combat units an ability to weaken or slow enemy heroes would actually be enough.

turin.turambar

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Re: a way to balance herospam
« Antwort #8 am: 5. Mär 2020, 21:27 »
Thank you for the answer !josdos (I updated the post according to your answer).

In my opinion heroic units already have a role and would probably be too costly and become too overpowered if they were to become the anti hero of factions in addition to being able to level further than standard units and being quite strong against standard units.

Halbarad

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Re: a way to balance herospam
« Antwort #9 am: 5. Mär 2020, 21:55 »
I am against making heroes weaker. i do not see a problem with people spamming heroes. Heroes are strong yes but sending hem alone against an army is still suicide.

First: It isn't about making heroes weaker, they will still do the same amount of damage against units.
Second: It is for heroes at Level 1. It isn't if you send Gandalf Level 10, Elessar and leveled Boromir, Beregond  and Imrahil against an army without heroes/ with just one or two. Gandalfs Word of Power destroys the army, Aragorn can heal, the rest kills the enemies heroes. Now you have 5 Spellpoints, all your heroes are leveled up and your enemy can do nothing to stop you.
But yes, nobody sends them in alone. You combine them with some troops, often a few troops where they can hide inside. It isn't that good/ easy in 1vs1, especially on maps like Fords of Isen, where splitting up your armies and harassing is important. But especially games with more than 2 players it is a different story.   
In 4.5, I played Angmar and played 3vs2. After my ally was defeatet I still won against 3 other players. My heroes were leveled up and I had as much of them as they had together, that was the importent thing. Helegwen freezes enemies while Witchking and Zaphragor Level 10 destroy the army, my other heroes kill their not leveled up heroes. Of course my enemies weren't that experienced in playing online, but yes, herospam is really really good in bigger games. I still have the replay of that match, but you won't be able to see it with 4.5.2...

Nevertheless I still get the point that heroes should not get to weak. Alone, they are worth their price and thats what we should keep in mind when talking about suggestions.

FG15

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Re: a way to balance herospam
« Antwort #10 am: 6. Mär 2020, 09:28 »
The question is, if the problem happens mainly in larger games and we put most of the hero counters in the outpost, does that really improve it? In such games there are a lot less outposts, so only 1 player per team would have access to them. Is that enough?

tolgayurdal

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Re: a way to balance herospam
« Antwort #11 am: 6. Mär 2020, 10:57 »
It is an interesting topic due to players' choise. I actually don't know what should be implemented about this. The truth is that i am not against the hero spam as long as it is balanced but the reasonable point is that (as i stated at the last line of my Dorwinion consept) both outpost heroes counter individually in the same game. Maybe it is better to decide some time later (cause of high tension of effective heroes) until then we should move on our work like the next update or other consepts. This might solve the problem temporary but opens a certain window in the rightful time.

Best regards.


turin.turambar

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Re: a way to balance herospam
« Antwort #12 am: 6. Mär 2020, 17:41 »
I'd say the anti hero units could for some factions be recruited in outpost but not necessary for ALL of them. (That could be another point to make each faction more specific, even if they're already a great deal different.)

I don't know for sure whether having only one player per team who can build these units would be enough, but I'd think it would at least allow for more diversity. (In addition, it would make map control yet more relevant and could allow some factions to create new synergies if one needs the outpost and the other doesn't to counter heroes.)

The main problem with the current situation from what I heard is that if your opponent goes herospam, the best thing you can do is to do the same, where for other units (i.e cav), you have a countering unit to oppose. So adding a counter, even if not THAT easily available wouldn't be detrimental to the game imo. (And discussing about it isn't detrimental to, for example, misty mountains development process I'd say)

tolgayurdal

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Re: a way to balance herospam
« Antwort #13 am: 6. Mär 2020, 18:29 »
I am afraid the balanced herospam consept (the interesting topic) is misunderstood. It needs to be clarified such as: if the ai sends a bunch of heroes to enemy bases, they counter. But the player controls the heroes under the balance ( in this case without attacking ), the number and content of outposts don't matter. Both sides can be exist in terms of the peace ( i don't believe that this can not be simplified any further ).

What matters in Edain universe focussing consepts, as long as the role endured, there should not be problem (especially for the next updates). Besides that i am really annoyed herospam topic so far. It is completely clear that, if the subject brings detrimental to outposts, the hero will be removed ( this sounds the best solution unless providing the midway ).


Gnomi

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Re: a way to balance herospam
« Antwort #14 am: 6. Mär 2020, 19:10 »
Hey tolgayurdal,
I believe that you missunderstood something. Everyone was talking about pvp matches (player vs player) and not AI matches.
Basically Balance is always for the Multiplayer first and not AI battles, as the AI always cheats and never uses any tactics (like using counters in an efficient way)

tolgayurdal

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Re: a way to balance herospam
« Antwort #15 am: 6. Mär 2020, 19:44 »
Hey Gnomi,
Now i see the problem and the topic should be for the multiplayers. Sorry for misunderstanding.

they_stole_it_from_us

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Re: a way to balance herospam
« Antwort #16 am: 16. Apr 2020, 16:19 »
I am new to the Board and this is my first post as well.

I just wanted to put a vote in favour of heroes as well. It's one of the things that separates this game from other accountant style RTS gameplay of Starcraft and don't wanna see this game take that turn.

I support my arguments with the reason that the entire lore is about Heroes and Villains and not the troublesome peasants or filthy orcs but a greater vision of the leaders. So, even if the pros raise voices in favour of Unit fights rather than heroes gameplay, that would still won't be in the vision of the lore.

Not only creation of heroes must drive the overall balance of the faction but I would also raise balancing concerns considering just unit fights till the end. For eg.

Mordor - If a player doesn't produce Sauron at the start and fights vehemently and yet loses against Heroes supported army, that mustn't initiate any balance discussions because the whole vision of Mordor is that of Sauron. That would make the faction to produce Sauron as soon as quickly to consider long term goals but that is the whole point of the lore isn't it?

Similarly with other factions as well.

The last thing I am afraid of this great mod to turn towards other rush RTSs like CNCs where nothing seem to happen where it is supposed to happen or at least have some flexibilities within the gameplay.

Heroes have huge costs to them and they must be rewarding. Planning against a particular hero should also form part of the strategy rather than mindlessly spamming factions basic footman and charging from all corners like no tomorrow and then complain how a faction did herospam and won.

I hope I got my point across. Once again guys, this is such a great mod. I congratulate the entire team for this great spectacle of a game experience.


Geethopapa

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Re: a way to balance herospam
« Antwort #17 am: 16. Apr 2020, 19:34 »
Firstly, I don't understand the very word HEROSPAM, in a game where all heroes can be recruited, and the heroes are a BIG part. It's not like we can have a multiple copies of a single hero all on the battlefield. That would warrant a phrase such as a HERO SPAM.

And what is the problem if recruiting multiple heroes turns the game in the players favor. I think that's a big part of RTS games with Hero units. Imagine a Warcraft 3 player not making Heroes and arguing about the balance of the game. And after seeing many replays in Edainranked, I have come to conclusion that many players here don't like making heroes and only like to play like regular RTSes, where units are everything. I have seen several replays, one very recently, Ered Luin vs Mordor. The Mordor player had Sauron, MOS, 2 Nazguls, Gorbag on the field and the Ered Luin player only had Bilbo. EL player played really good, like REALLY GOOD, but without Heroes. I don't think this game's balance should be such that it's possible to win without Heroes. That would take everything this game has to offer apart from other RTSes like SC, CnC etc.

Recruiting Heroes (not phrasing it as HERO SPAM) should be a part and strategical aspect of this game, and they should not be like novelty units, that you can play and win with or without.

dgsgomes

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Re: a way to balance herospam
« Antwort #18 am: 16. Apr 2020, 22:44 »
Just to share my thoughts, I also think that heroes are a key part of the game and already some things have been done to reduce strenght of "hero spamming", like increasing recruitement time (and further increasing revival time) of heroes, as well as increasing command points.

What I think that hero balancing needs to aim for now are some hero specific mechanics that snowballs and allows for total game-breaking tactics when heroes level up, which I will list below some examples:

- Beregond: at level 10, he unlocks an ability that makes all heroes invulnerable for 30 seconds (plus a 25% armor for nearby heroes), considering the actual strenght of Gondor heroes, the potential of this ability is insane for a 1100 cost hero;
- Wormtongue: at level 7, he can make heroes in an area not able to deal any damage nor to gain any combat experience during the time of the ability - it seems too much of a deal for a 1000 cost hero, that can completely nulify, for example, Gandalf the white at level 10;
- Saruman: at level 7, he can fully convert enemy units in an area to his side for a short time, with this, you can easily make a trap even for upgraded units, completely destroying them when the time of the ability is over and possibly winning game just by that (I've actually done that once, destroyed a huge upgraded Imladris army and won the game - my adversary did not understand what happened);
- Thorin Oakenshield: at level 10, all units around Thorin (including Thorin) are invulnerable to all damage for 10 seconds - well, invulnerability is strong by itself and this one also affects everything else, once in the past I lost the game against this ability because I was unaware of it: all my upgraded units and heroes were completely destroyed by the combination of this ability and Arkenstone buff and stun... All my army and map control and outposts and everything was destroyed because of Thorin Oakenshield (my enemy only had buildings in the Castle);
- Mouth of Sauron: at least 3 big area of effect abilities that includes making enemy units fight against each other and lowering by half the damage of enemy heroes - all of this really scales up to a ridiculous potential for a 2k cost hero, and the abilities have big area of effects too;
- Drauglin: at level 10, his ability Razor Crescent completely destroy enemy infantry, including Gondor soldiers - I am not against a strong aoe as a level 10, but not one that can entirely dizimate even units like Gondor soldiers by a 250 cost hero;
- Nori: at level 8, his ability Ambush completely destroys enemy infantry in a similar way - I've experienced Nori's ability against Gondor soldiers on PvP too, but he gets the ability even faster;

Summing up, most of the problems IMO are for abilities that have insane potential in many situations and can completely change the tide of a game in an unfair/game-breaking way.

tolgayurdal

  • Gast
Re: a way to balance herospam
« Antwort #19 am: 16. Apr 2020, 23:25 »
In case of sharing thoughts, i don't have much multiplayer experience. Instead i prefer analysing and designing mechanics. When it comes to play, i avoid attacking at first. If i get enough sight, i read the mind of my adversary. Then hero spam comes, i ask myself how can i stop it. Negotiation has been refused as not being asked for dividing whole map. The only thing remains, fight.

Of course these happen while not working. I am capable to accept the defeat in a fair game afterwards.