28. Mär 2024, 19:14 Hallo Gast.
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Autor Thema: a way to balance herospam  (Gelesen 3681 mal)

tolgayurdal

  • Gast
Re: a way to balance herospam
« Antwort #15 am: 6. Mär 2020, 19:44 »
Hey Gnomi,
Now i see the problem and the topic should be for the multiplayers. Sorry for misunderstanding.

they_stole_it_from_us

  • Hobbit
  • *
  • Beiträge: 1
Re: a way to balance herospam
« Antwort #16 am: 16. Apr 2020, 16:19 »
I am new to the Board and this is my first post as well.

I just wanted to put a vote in favour of heroes as well. It's one of the things that separates this game from other accountant style RTS gameplay of Starcraft and don't wanna see this game take that turn.

I support my arguments with the reason that the entire lore is about Heroes and Villains and not the troublesome peasants or filthy orcs but a greater vision of the leaders. So, even if the pros raise voices in favour of Unit fights rather than heroes gameplay, that would still won't be in the vision of the lore.

Not only creation of heroes must drive the overall balance of the faction but I would also raise balancing concerns considering just unit fights till the end. For eg.

Mordor - If a player doesn't produce Sauron at the start and fights vehemently and yet loses against Heroes supported army, that mustn't initiate any balance discussions because the whole vision of Mordor is that of Sauron. That would make the faction to produce Sauron as soon as quickly to consider long term goals but that is the whole point of the lore isn't it?

Similarly with other factions as well.

The last thing I am afraid of this great mod to turn towards other rush RTSs like CNCs where nothing seem to happen where it is supposed to happen or at least have some flexibilities within the gameplay.

Heroes have huge costs to them and they must be rewarding. Planning against a particular hero should also form part of the strategy rather than mindlessly spamming factions basic footman and charging from all corners like no tomorrow and then complain how a faction did herospam and won.

I hope I got my point across. Once again guys, this is such a great mod. I congratulate the entire team for this great spectacle of a game experience.


Geethopapa

  • Bilbos Festgast
  • *
  • Beiträge: 10
Re: a way to balance herospam
« Antwort #17 am: 16. Apr 2020, 19:34 »
Firstly, I don't understand the very word HEROSPAM, in a game where all heroes can be recruited, and the heroes are a BIG part. It's not like we can have a multiple copies of a single hero all on the battlefield. That would warrant a phrase such as a HERO SPAM.

And what is the problem if recruiting multiple heroes turns the game in the players favor. I think that's a big part of RTS games with Hero units. Imagine a Warcraft 3 player not making Heroes and arguing about the balance of the game. And after seeing many replays in Edainranked, I have come to conclusion that many players here don't like making heroes and only like to play like regular RTSes, where units are everything. I have seen several replays, one very recently, Ered Luin vs Mordor. The Mordor player had Sauron, MOS, 2 Nazguls, Gorbag on the field and the Ered Luin player only had Bilbo. EL player played really good, like REALLY GOOD, but without Heroes. I don't think this game's balance should be such that it's possible to win without Heroes. That would take everything this game has to offer apart from other RTSes like SC, CnC etc.

Recruiting Heroes (not phrasing it as HERO SPAM) should be a part and strategical aspect of this game, and they should not be like novelty units, that you can play and win with or without.

dgsgomes

  • Pförtner von Bree
  • *
  • Beiträge: 75
  • "If by my life or death I can protect you, I will"
Re: a way to balance herospam
« Antwort #18 am: 16. Apr 2020, 22:44 »
Just to share my thoughts, I also think that heroes are a key part of the game and already some things have been done to reduce strenght of "hero spamming", like increasing recruitement time (and further increasing revival time) of heroes, as well as increasing command points.

What I think that hero balancing needs to aim for now are some hero specific mechanics that snowballs and allows for total game-breaking tactics when heroes level up, which I will list below some examples:

- Beregond: at level 10, he unlocks an ability that makes all heroes invulnerable for 30 seconds (plus a 25% armor for nearby heroes), considering the actual strenght of Gondor heroes, the potential of this ability is insane for a 1100 cost hero;
- Wormtongue: at level 7, he can make heroes in an area not able to deal any damage nor to gain any combat experience during the time of the ability - it seems too much of a deal for a 1000 cost hero, that can completely nulify, for example, Gandalf the white at level 10;
- Saruman: at level 7, he can fully convert enemy units in an area to his side for a short time, with this, you can easily make a trap even for upgraded units, completely destroying them when the time of the ability is over and possibly winning game just by that (I've actually done that once, destroyed a huge upgraded Imladris army and won the game - my adversary did not understand what happened);
- Thorin Oakenshield: at level 10, all units around Thorin (including Thorin) are invulnerable to all damage for 10 seconds - well, invulnerability is strong by itself and this one also affects everything else, once in the past I lost the game against this ability because I was unaware of it: all my upgraded units and heroes were completely destroyed by the combination of this ability and Arkenstone buff and stun... All my army and map control and outposts and everything was destroyed because of Thorin Oakenshield (my enemy only had buildings in the Castle);
- Mouth of Sauron: at least 3 big area of effect abilities that includes making enemy units fight against each other and lowering by half the damage of enemy heroes - all of this really scales up to a ridiculous potential for a 2k cost hero, and the abilities have big area of effects too;
- Drauglin: at level 10, his ability Razor Crescent completely destroy enemy infantry, including Gondor soldiers - I am not against a strong aoe as a level 10, but not one that can entirely dizimate even units like Gondor soldiers by a 250 cost hero;
- Nori: at level 8, his ability Ambush completely destroys enemy infantry in a similar way - I've experienced Nori's ability against Gondor soldiers on PvP too, but he gets the ability even faster;

Summing up, most of the problems IMO are for abilities that have insane potential in many situations and can completely change the tide of a game in an unfair/game-breaking way.

tolgayurdal

  • Gast
Re: a way to balance herospam
« Antwort #19 am: 16. Apr 2020, 23:25 »
In case of sharing thoughts, i don't have much multiplayer experience. Instead i prefer analysing and designing mechanics. When it comes to play, i avoid attacking at first. If i get enough sight, i read the mind of my adversary. Then hero spam comes, i ask myself how can i stop it. Negotiation has been refused as not being asked for dividing whole map. The only thing remains, fight.

Of course these happen while not working. I am capable to accept the defeat in a fair game afterwards.