[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] General Suggestions

4.6 Nebelberge ring Heroe

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Jaumpy:
Seeing that the Edain team have struggle implementing Durin's Bane among the game mechanic they've been building, why not, instead of discarding the idea, change its mechanic to fit the game?

We all know that in TFOTR movie the Balrog is described different as it is in the book, looking maybe more overpower as it would actually be. Perhaps they can rebuild the base concept of Durin's Bane to adapt the role balrogs have in Morgoth's army during the first age: terrible and fearful captains who commanded the orc armies.
Its appearance and abilities would change in its basic form. For the concept model, I suggest to be guided by the description of the book and other texts: a 3-meter-tall humanoid creature (similar to the size of a troll), surrounded by shadows and flames that doesn't allow a clear vision of its body (and without wings, for now…). At first, it's possible to confuse it with the Necromancer, but it'll have a more clearer form, and its famous weapons: a sword and a whip, both appeared to be made of lava. I attach an image of how it could be:



For its powers, here are some vague ideas (they're not in order of level):

-A passive that make it resistant to weapon attacks but vulnerable to magic / other heroes abilities ("sword are no more use here" said Gandalf).
-Inspiring terror that make enemies flee, or an armor / leadership debuff.
-An area buff for goblin allies that increases their attack but losing some of their armor.
-A buff that enhance its damage to units and / or heroes. Like the old "Ignite" ability.
-A toggle that made its attacks to have aoe damage but losing attack speed (like the Witch-king).
-A special strike that deal great damage to heroes, or a debuff for them.
-A small / medium aoe fire damage to units (not useful against structures). A lesser version of "Breathe Fire".

As I said, this will be its base form, the one that can be recruited in the MM citadel for 3000 resources. Now if it picked the Ring, its form and abilities will change. As a non-restricted Maiar, it can change its appearance to resemble the demonic beast that is seemed in the movie (gaining its wings that allowed the Flight abilitie), and its abilities increase drastically, but with the condition that now affects allied units as well. For example, the Breathe Fire (now with huge radius) will damage its own army and structures,  the terror inspired make allied and enemy units (not including heroes) to be paralyzed for some seconds, its aoe attack damage will also affect near allied units, etc. So it'll be a powerful unit that can destroy your army as well.

This of course are some ideas, I don't actually know nothing about balance or how to implement them well ingame. But for me, Durin's Bane could be an interesting ringhero for this faction, being Smaug a 10 points spell for the right (aggressive / short-term) tree of the spellbook.ree of the spellbook.
Hope you consider my idea, or modify them as you like 

dkbluewizard2:
Jaumpy, I really like this concept and idea. Though I like the model for the Balrog in the movie. Remember, the Balrog started off smaller but then grew in height (according to the books) but you are right--we are never given a definitive answer if Balrogs had wings or not.

I believe the easiest thing for the Edain Team to do is build from the ground up with Durin's Bane and use his current model. I would love to see him as the Ring Hero and he was around during the time of the Hobbit and LOTR. I agree with you.

Sadly ET doesn't want to do this. I would totally be in favor of your concept if ET actually cared about the canonicity of the Balrog with this faction, but sadly they don't. And that is why Smaug is the pick.

tolgayurdal:
Jaumpy, i see your fair points and would like add a couple things about Balrog.

He served Morgoth at first, Sauron is not directly. Also he clearly has issues as can attack his own allies after awoke (who doesn't btw). He is capable to reach wherever he wants with his wings as seen in the movie. This also explains his work style, lone. At 3rd age, he might not even lead the armies of MM with this behaviour. He only appeares when it is necessary like an ıstar Gandalf.

I don't have any idea of modelling or implementation of him other than offered. So agreed @dkbluewizard2 about using current model.

Anyway thanks for sharing ideas and work.

dkbluewizard2:

--- Zitat von: tolgayurdal am 22. Apr 2020, 08:32 ---Jaumpy, i see your fair points and would like add a couple things about Balrog.

He served Morgoth at first, Sauron is not directly. Also he clearly has issues as can attack his own allies after awoke (who doesn't btw). He is capable to reach wherever he wants with his wings as seen in the movie. This also explains his work style, lone. At 3rd age, he might not even lead the armies of MM with this behaviour. He only appeares when it is necessary like an ıstar Gandalf.

I don't have any idea of modelling or implementation of him other than offered. So agreed @dkbluewizard2 about using current model.

Anyway thanks for sharing ideas and work.


--- Ende Zitat ---

All Evil whether Balrog, Smaug, Morgoth, Saruman, or Sauron kill their own troops when they fail them. I don't see how you can state that the Balrog who has led armies since the dawn of time under Morgoth suddenly displaces his nature in a few thousand years--especially since he was a leader a lot longer than that: Elder Days/First Age vs Second Age.

There is also the words that Gandalf spoke to him. Does anyone know what they mean?

Basically Gandalf was identifying himself as a Maia to the Balrog and telling him to go back to the shadow--that is to crawl back because Gandalf serves a higher authority.

Now if the Balrog was mindless, why would Gandalf tell him this? Why bother conversing with the Balrog? You see, canonically it doesn't stand to reason that Gandalf would have said this if the Balrog had foresook his original mindset. Especially since all he did in the Second Age was sleep.

When we sleep I don't think that changes our personality and mindset--unless we have a stroke in the middle of our sleep, but I don't think the Balrog can suffer one of those.

But back to the topic at hand, I would like to see a concept with the Balrog involved. I mean, the starting part of the MM is Moria for crying outloud--the place where the Balrog lives.

I suggest that we could make the Balrog a little bigger than a troll but when he reaches a higher ranking or if he gets a power from the power tree--he becomes his giant self and wreaks havoc (like the books).

I am not against anything, I do feel the Balrog makes 1000% more sense than Smaug, all I am doing is correcting the mindset of this community in regards to the Balrog. He is not a mindless beast that just kills whatever, that is subjective data. Objective data shows that he led armies in the past and that he has the same present mindset (as shown by Gandalf addressing him).

The Balrog is the clearer more canonical choice but I am afraid that whatever proposal will fall on deaf ears because when it comes down to it, ET likes their dragon Smaug.

Jaumpy:

--- Zitat von: tolgayurdal am 22. Apr 2020, 08:32 ---Jaumpy, i see your fair points and would like add a couple things about Balrog.

He served Morgoth at first, Sauron is not directly. Also he clearly has issues as can attack his own allies after awoke (who doesn't btw). He is capable to reach wherever he wants with his wings as seen in the movie. This also explains his work style, lone. At 3rd age, he might not even lead the armies of MM with this behaviour. He only appeares when it is necessary like an ıstar Gandalf.

I don't have any idea of modelling or implementation of him other than offered. So agreed @dkbluewizard2 about using current model.

Anyway thanks for sharing ideas and work.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Well, as dkbluewizard2 said the Balrogs are not beasts or something like that, they're Maiar, and very clever ones (imagine that Durin's Bane countered the spell Gandalf used to block its path). It's also known that they're agile (they "flew" to protect Morgoth against Ungoliant when it betrayed him) but doesn't implied they have wings per se. And absolutely they're not solitary warrios. In fact, most of them couldn't won a 1vs1 fight (Glorfindel killed one, Ecthelion killed their lord Gothmog). So, to stand against an army, Durin's Bane would need one too. Additionally, they were much less powerful than Sauron, and than Gandalf the Grey.

But well, as most of the people said, if the ET wanted and wants Smaug to be the MM Ringhero, it will be. I'd prefer Durin's Bane too, but i'm also not aware about all the changes they'll need to make to balance it.

I could try and make a more detailed and complete post about the implementation of the Balrog too if some wanted.

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