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Autor Thema: Lorien central spell change  (Gelesen 2126 mal)


  • Wanderer des Alten Waldes
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Lorien central spell change
« am: 10. Apr 2020, 13:12 »
Hellow fellow Edainers !
I come here with yet another thing , that I would like to speak about and it's Lorien central spell. Well not exactly only about the Elven Wood but also the other spell - Refuge in the Woods.

I want to just remind you what the second spell, I have mentioned, is doing currently. Refuge in the Woods used to be casted on any tree present on the map. That tree become a blessed tree then and was able to heal all allied units around. Due to some mechanic problems and the fact that spell was pretty strong , it was changed so now  blessed tree is spawned at the target area. You can only cast this spell near your base or near other blessed trees.

The central spell has not been changed since 4.5 release and his description says:
Creates a forest on the target area that buffs troop. Also creates a targetable Heart Tree at the center. The wood will remain for as long as the Heart Tree is present, the longer the wood is present the strong the effect of the buff:
- At the start the wood only cloak units, allowing Lorien units to use their ambush ability.
- After one minute, even revealed units will be able to use their ambush ability.
- After two minutes, the ambush ability cooldown will be reduced by 75%, allowing the ability to be used more often within the thick wood.

As we can see, now Lorien spellbook consists two spells which are summoning a tree which grants buff around it. While both spells work totally differently, the theme of summoning a tree slightly argues with the new idea of Edain 4.5, talking about the uniqueness of each spellbook. Moreover, I recognize every well oriented building too strong in current Edain version, about which I have talked in my propose about wells: https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,36095.msg479063.html#msg479063.
In addition, we can also observe , that central spell is not being used that often , due to it's current way of working as well as low popularity of ambush ability usage.

So I have come up with an idea on how that situation could be changed, by including certain Lorien mechanic, which is under used right now. The concept is following:

The current central spell is replaced by a new spell:
Golden Tress - passively grants player the ability to upgrade his mallorn trees with following upgrades:

Billowing Fog - The Mallorn Tree disguises allies in the area.
Ban of Protection - reduces the armor of nearby enemies by 20%.
Border Guard Post - Increases the attack range and damage of nearby archers by 15%.
Each Mallorn tree can be upgraded with only one of those upgrades. Each upgrade costs 100 resources.

In addition if player also has Blessed Galadriel or/and Twilight Queen spell, he he is able to buy an additional one upgrade from the followings:
Valars blessing - ( Requires Blessed Galadriel spell to be bought ) increases resource production of Mallorn tree by 20%.
No one enters - (Requires Twilight Queen spell to be bought ) deals damage over time to all enemies surrounding the Mallon tree.

As you can see, the new central spell uses special improvement mechanics for Mallorn trees, which in their current form are practically not used at all, mainly due to the fact how the new eco system works. Most players will always first improve the base's economy to gain access to silverthorn arrows. Due to this, as well as the fact that improvements of eco 3 are not so often seen during pvp games, special improvements to Mallorn tree are practically unused. By placing them in central spell, I think their usage will increase. They also allow you to highlight certain aspects of the faction.
Billowing Fog allows better use of the new elven unit ability, which requires being stealthed. Ban of Protection makes it easier to deal with potential harrasment. The Border Guard Post, which increased the visibility of the Mallorn tree, has been changed. This ability is not needed when Lorien has access to the spell revealing the entire map. That's why I changed the effect of the upgrade to allow it to strengthen another important aspect of Lorien faction - archers.
In addition, the new central spell introduces an additional function for Galadriel spells, which now introduce an additional boost in case the player lost his Galadriel or cannot afford her.

What about Elven Wood then ? I recognize it as really nice concept and would like to see it stay in Lorien spellbook. While I would like to think about it more , I have came up with following option , that in current way , spell could work pretty well as tier 2 defensive spell. To not actually loose healing ability it could be changed that after 3 minutes ( so when Elven wood grows to its max potential ) player gets possiblity to choose his last effect:
- Units can use ambush ability without need to be stealth when in a range of Elven Wood.
- Units are being healed when in a range of Elven Wood.

That way the healing effect could be postponed a little bit and defending the Elven Wood would be more rewarding.

Please now, tell me what do you think about that idea. What would you like to change about it or if you like the current state of those spells. I'm glad to hear any feedback form you.


  • Gast
Re: Lorien central spell change
« Antwort #1 am: 11. Apr 2020, 12:41 »

If i can express my ideas about this consept, it may have an improvement or less. Firstly i am certainly not against it, it solves some problems of the faction. In the current version the central spell allows the player to summon Heart Tree anywhere on the map, it is not fitting with sphere of Lorien, i think. Also the time is troubling ally units nearby, the player has to wait 3 minutes for effective usage of the tree. It is an obvious problem in my opinion.

The other point is that if the gameplay will change with this consept, the entmoot should be touched. With respect to Treebeard, currently it looks defenceless for enemies, allies have to send a couple troops for its protection. It might be attached through the central spell but i have no idea about it. 

Finally it should be well thought by Lorien players, i can not be more involved as not being an expert.

Stay Safe and Healty


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Re: Lorien central spell change
« Antwort #2 am: 11. Apr 2020, 13:19 »
Overall, I'm for your suggestion, Kmogon.

I agree that the mallorn tree upgrades are underused at the moment, so your solution is very viable. However, I'd like to point out 2 things:

1- The "no one enters" damage should be, at most, able only to defeat a level 1 unupgraded Gondor soldier horde without formation before they destroy the Tree - at most! We are talking about a 100 cost upgrade (even though unlocked by a spellbook), so it is important to make it not so strong to prevent making dynamics more static. This way, the upgraded Tree would melt units like Mordor orcs, but would still be in danger against stronger or upgraded units.

2- If I'm not mistaken, the Ring hero Galadriels unlock these similar upgrades, so what could be done is to make those effects from the passive Spellbook ability double if Galadriel has the One Ring (the Blessed version giving +40% resources from mallorn trees and the Cursed version doubling damage for mallorn trees).

I don't know if the Edain Team will rework the ambush ability and how, so I won't discuss that for the Elven Wood spell, but I liked the idea of contracting two spells in one and making it passively heal units while also being a target that can be destroyed by enemies.

Lastly, the central spell looks nice (but I think that the area of influence of the Mallorn trees should be relatively big and the spell should still cost 3 PP).


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Re: Lorien central spell change
« Antwort #3 am: 26. Okt 2020, 17:06 »
I would prefer if the current central spell would be Passive, that creates similar effects around all Mallorn Trees that player has on the map. I think that central spell should be linked to Mallorn Trees. Just an opinion.


  • Bilbos Festgast
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Re: Lorien central spell change
« Antwort #4 am: 26. Okt 2020, 17:19 »
Loving the idea you propose Kmogon, heavily SUPPORTING it as such. A tree spell for lothlorien upgrading the eco that trees represent would allow to have a very fitting spell and keep the unique mechanic of tree upgrade in Lothlorien.

 I'd be for the final ability of elven wood to be automatically triggered though, as to avoid that player needs to get back to it after 3 minuted to unlock the ability. As for the removed choice, I'm not sure that would be too much of a problem, maybe the second effect could be added after even more time, or buyable as an upgrade.

Concerning where each spell should fit, I'd argue both could go in the defensive / long term row, but the upgrade is more "defensive" than the wood + healing after time, so i'd put the tree upgrade in defensive row, unlike what gandalf proposes, mainly as to keep defensive as long term as possible and not usable offensively.

(ofc, that TOO is just an opinion)
« Letzte Änderung: 26. Okt 2020, 17:28 von turin.turambar »

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Re: Lorien central spell change
« Antwort #5 am: 26. Okt 2020, 18:00 »
Refuge in the Woods will be changed soon™. In a way that makes the central spell more attractive, too.


  • Gast
Re: Lorien central spell change
« Antwort #6 am: 28. Dez 2020, 15:08 »
Refuge in the Woods will be changed soon™. In a way that makes the central spell more attractive, too.

Now central spell is finally useful in combination with healing, good idea, but the tree looks like ordinary tree, maybe mallorn would be better - just idea for graphic members of the team.

Le Sournois

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Re: Lorien central spell change
« Antwort #7 am: 2. Mai 2021, 16:12 »
I totally agree with the fact the central spell should be changed because some of the effects simply do not work : the reduction cooldown of the Ambush of the Wood Elves does not work.
The alternatives previously discussed are great, but I have thought of another one :
Rather than creating a completly new spell, it should be great to keep the Heart Tree but changing its effects :

In the original BFME 2, there are two kind of stealth applied permanently to a unit :
-"basic stealth" : the unit can hide near trees if it doesn't attack
-"advanced stealth" : the unit can hide if it doesn't move and near trees, it can attack while keep being cloaked (see Mirkwood archers in the original BFME 2)

Marchwardens in the Edain have a basic stealth. One very interesting effect the Heart Tree could have is a leadership that would change the kind of stealth of Marchwardens from a "basic stealth" to an "advanced stealth" for 20 seconds or something like that.

If it is possible, that would fit the Lothlorien gameplay very well as Lothlorien doesn't like staying static to defend a place on the backside but like to chase the ennemy away from their sacred places.

Marchwardens would therefore have a lot more intuitive gameplay in the use of Ambush of the Wood Elves and could use it even without the vicinity of a tree as long as the leadership of the Heart Tree still applies.

Marchwarden archers could be more interesting as they would be able to aim the ennemy from a tree without being an aim themselves for ennemy archers.

For Mirkwood units, the Heart Tree could give them +10 % speed, thus allowing to go almost as fast as Marchwardens do.

Hope you enjoy the suggestion,

Thanks for your hardwork