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Autor Thema: Ithiliens and Archers  (Gelesen 1556 mal)

OakenShield224

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Ithiliens and Archers
« am: 13. Jul 2020, 14:32 »
One of the largest debates in the Edain Community is related to the use of Gondor Archers and how they relate to the Ithilien Rangers. Before 4.5.3, they were largely seen as redundant as most people would skip the Archery Range and go straight for Ithiliens. Now that the new patch is out, the Archers are a more popular choice and yet a lot of people still either go straight to the Ithiliens or more on to the Ithiliens after a short time. This is partially expanded by the fact that Ithiliens have a discount that is far more accessible early on than the Archer discount. The main bonuses that the Archers have is their larger battalion size, lower cost and CP, and their access to heavy armour (which is slightly offset by how they have half the health of the rangers). They also have the formation bonus which gives a large stats bonus but at the expense of range. In terms of gameplay, the Rangers are a direct upgrade to the Archers in terms of damage. This isn't even considering the Morthond Archers which are more accessible now thanks to the Signal Fire changes.

This concept has been discussed on the server with Kmogon, Samsara and Corrigan. It focuses on diversifying the archers of Gondor to refocus the Rangers as a harassment, ambush focused unit as they were portrayed in the books and films. In this concept, they will lose the ability to get fire arrows. It wouldn't make as much sense for the Rangers to constantly use fire when they constantly battle in a forest. This already makes the Archers far more unique for Gondor, allowing them to be better at attacking structures and acting more as a "professional force". This can be combined by increasing the health of the Archers and reducing the health of the Ithiliens so that they're closer together and the Archers fit more as the tanky, armoured ranged unit. The Rangers will then focus on the Composite Arrows upgrade which can be bought at the Ranger Tent. For the sake of balance, it can be limited to higher levels.

Composite Arrows - Equips all Ithilien Rangers with Composite Bows across the map. This increases their range by +10%, reduces the cooldown of Unexpected Salvo and unlocks the Ambush Volley ability.

As for the Rangers themselves:

Unexpected Salvo - The Rangers reveal themselves to the enemy to fire a salvo of arrows aiming for the enemy's weak spots, dealing triple their normal damage and revealing hit enemies for 15 seconds.

Fiery Blaze - The Rangers launch flaming arrows at the target area, lighting it on fire for a short time.

Ambush Volley - The Rangers launch precise shots at enemies. For a short time, their shots will halve the speed of their targets. Requires Level 2 Ithilien Rangers and Composite Arrows has been bought.


The first ability is the same as their current Unexpected Salvo. Fiery Blaze was added to compensate for the loss of Fire Arrows. As Rangers, they could've used fire as a tool to control enemy movements and cause general disruption. It can allow them to deal continuous damage and break up armies to make them more vulnerable for allied cavalry. Ambush Volley can also be used as an ambushing tool (which can fit well if they can stealth in trees), disrupting enemy movements and allowing for reinforcements to arrive or to allow for allies to escape.

By making these changes, this would allow the Ithilien Rangers to act more as an ambush force that can appear from the trees and heavily disrupt enemy movements. With the reduction in health of the Rangers, they can be used as a higher risk-high reward unit. It will give them a niche to help them stand out from the Gondor Archers and will allow the other archers to still be used in the mid-late game alongside the Rangers.

I hope you like this concept. Note that all numbers can be changed subject to balance. Once again, thanks to Kmogon, Samsara and Corrigan for helping with the design of it. I look forward to hearing what you all think!

Seleukos I.

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Re: Ithiliens and Archers
« Antwort #1 am: 13. Jul 2020, 16:27 »
Hello everyone :)

I‘ll share my thoughts on this concept, mainly from the perspective of a player who plays mostly Multiplayer.

First of all, I don’t think Gondorarchers are that bad, at least not as bad as they used to be^^
Their formation is a lot better than before (I don’t know if this was a change from 4.4.1 to 4.5 or a later change tbh) and with the central spell they really aren’t that bad.
However, you are ofc right that rangers are the better alternative and most players go for them instead of the normal archers. 

Zitat
...refocus the Rangers as a harassment, ambush focused unit as they were portrayed in the books and films.

I don’t think this kind of unit design would work all too well in Edain. Yes, in the books and the films the rangers are this kind of ambush force, using guerrilla tactics and so on. But I don’t think this would work at all in Edain, at least not in multiplayer. Using archers as individual units, without being supported by melee infantry (at least some pikes) is very risky and any good opponent would punish it with cav (or other highly mobile units, like wolves).

Buffing the hp of normal archers and reducing the hp of rangers would go against the “system” of all elite archers having the same stats or all standard cavalry units having the same stats, and so on. This being said, I in fact would like to see the hp of all elite archers to be lowered, just enough to allow cavalry to one-shot them again. But that’s a different topic^^

In general I like the idea behind the suggested abilities. Only the “Fiery Blaze“ sounds too strong to me. Setting the ground on fire is really powerful, especially vs weaker units, like orcs. Also, having it as an ability of a regular unit (and not a hero/spell) allows you to cast it several times at once, which – I think – would be too strong.
I do like the other abilities, but I think the composite bows should not only decrease the cooldown of the salvo but also double (or buff at least) it’s damage, as they are doing it now.

Looking at the whole concept my main concern is that the idea of designing rangers as a “independent force” won't work for the Multiplayer, I’m afraid.


In order to buff Gondor archers and make them somewhat attractive compared to rangers; What if the town houses would not only discount towerguards  (and heroic guards), but also normal Gondor archers? On the one hand this would maybe make townhouses more useful again, on the other hand it could help to buff Gondor archers.
But ofc that’s a more boring approach, compared to your idea ^^


Best regards,
Seleukos

OakenShield224

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Re: Ithiliens and Archers
« Antwort #2 am: 13. Jul 2020, 16:59 »
Thanks for the response Seleukos! I'll respond to each of your points in turn.

Zitat
I don’t think this kind of unit design would work all too well in Edain. Yes, in the books and the films the rangers are this kind of ambush force, using guerrilla tactics and so on. But I don’t think this would work at all in Edain, at least not in multiplayer. Using archers as individual units, without being supported by melee infantry (at least some pikes) is very risky and any good opponent would punish it with cav (or other highly mobile units, like wolves).

Sorry I should've been a little clearer with what I meant here. Their base function would still be to act like archers so they would work with your army as opposed to being on their own. But I meant to say that their abilities would allow them to suit the idea of the Rangers being a disruptive, ambush related force more than what they are now (which is just a stronger archer unit). By using their various abilities, they can open up more opportunities for your other units by breaking up armies, attacking strong targets, slowing down enemy forces etc. They'd have a different role to the Gondor Archers which would be a little tankier than they are now and be able to use HA and Fire Arrows to have a different effect on the field.

Zitat
Buffing the hp of normal archers and reducing the hp of rangers would go against the “system” of all elite archers having the same stats or all standard cavalry units having the same stats, and so on.

I get what you mean by this. With something like Angmar, it makes logical sense since Carn Dum archers have far better equipment than the basic Hillmen. Same with something like Black Uruks Archers vs Orc Archers or Galadhrim vs Lorien Archers or Rivendell Archers vs Dunedain. But I don't think it works with Gondor just because it doesn't make logical sense for heavily armoured soldiers of the city to have better stats (defence-wise) than the mobile Rangers who mainly use much lighter equipment.

Zitat
In general I like the idea behind the suggested abilities. Only the “Fiery Blaze“ sounds too strong to me. Setting the ground on fire is really powerful, especially vs weaker units, like orcs. Also, having it as an ability of a regular unit (and not a hero/spell) allows you to cast it several times at once, which – I think – would be too strong.
I do like the other abilities, but I think the composite bows should not only decrease the cooldown of the salvo but also double (or buff at least) it’s damage, as they are doing it now.

If needed the requirements for Fiery Blaze could be increased. Maybe have it be gated by a higher level or have it require Composite Bows or even both.

Hopefully, I've helped with some of your concerns.

SP19XX

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Re: Ithiliens and Archers
« Antwort #3 am: 13. Jul 2020, 18:38 »
Perhaps a different method to stagger it in that sense, could be to stage the abilities behind levels in general, with Composite Bows then being an upgrade that applies an overall benefit to each of them, such that the rangers become a scaling support in the midst of combat.

Using the below as their Palantir layout;

Level 1: Unexpected Salvo
As written.

Level 3: Ambush Volley
As written, without the need for Composite Bows.

Level 5: Fiery Blaze
As written.

Banner Carriers:

Composite Bows:
The Rangers gain +10% attack range, their abilities recharge faster, and grant +30% attack speed for a short duration when used.

Zitat
In order to buff Gondor archers and make them somewhat attractive compared to rangers; What if the town houses would not only discount towerguards  (and heroic guards), but also normal Gondor archers? On the one hand this would maybe make townhouses more useful again, on the other hand it could help to buff Gondor archers.
But ofc that’s a more boring approach, compared to your idea ^^

The discount from Town Houses can already be applied to Gondor Archers with the Taxes upgrade available at the Marketplace, so I feel that isn't needed and would devalue that upgrade further.
« Letzte Änderung: 13. Jul 2020, 18:43 von SP19XX »