[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Mordor Suggestions

Incorporating Half-trolls

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Helper01:
Similar to the topic I brought up for Isengard concerning the missing half-orcs and goblin-men, I find that Mordor missing half-trolls to be a bit lacking for filling out some of the further details of Mordor from the books. They were incorporated during the Battle of the Pelennor Fields as strange beings from Harad that are also called "troll-men." So I get a distinct impression that they were very sizable, brutish beings that maybe looked like men.
  But they also make me think the role they played for vanilla Goblins in ROTWK. I actually think that version reflected them quite well, as I inferred them to be in the books: Heavy troops that could not be trampled. I'm still kinda figuring the Edain mod out, so forgive me if I've overlooked units for Mordor that are like this, but I honestly don't remember anything like them in the mod.
  Perhaps they could be used as a replacement for other units that might not serve a good function to the Edain team? Or perhaps they could be a special unit power as a reinforcement from Harad, instead, given the Haradrim play such a role? Or a different spellbook power altogether? That, like the Haradrim, they could be a permanent summon?
  I honestly don't have too much else to add other than inviting ideas from everyone for these mysterious creatures.

Only True Witchking:
"Out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues."

This is the only mention of half-trolls in The Lord of the Rings; during the Battle on the Pelennor-Fields.
The men in question clearly are not half-trolls, as we can see from the word "like" - no one I've met so far would describe a lion as "a lion like a lion with a mane and sand-coloured fur".

Therefore, we also do not know what - and if - half-trolls actually are. They could be something that does exist somewhere and is drawn upon in order to describe these men, or they could simply be what one might think these men could be when looking at them - half-troll, half-man -, even though they are in fact entirely man.

Therefore, I think Edain should stay away as far as possible from half-trolls or "troll-men", as their existence is doubtful at best and there is no other information about them anywhere.

Now, if future versions of the mod (perhaps with a Men of the East faction) include large men with black skin from Far Harad under a "normal" unit name, I'd have no trouble with that, but they - despite their somewhat terrifying appearance - should imo just work like any other infantry unit, as they are merely humans. We don't even know whether they are larger or stronger than Aragorn or not.

-OTWK

PS: Random fact/thought: The half-trolls (or, in Edain 3.8.1, Uruks) of the Goblins have the interesting side-effect that because they can't be trampled, their spears are often very ineffecive against cavalry, meaning they can't protect infantry or archers nearly as well as other spearmen.

Helper01:
There is at least one further mention of them, about two pages later than the passage you mentioned, when it describes the knights of Dol Amroth routing "troll-men" and others.
  Your thoughts are fair and understandable; but I'm not sure lack of information on something should discourage the modders from using their imagination with these beings anymore than the mysterious mention of "were-worms," "stone giants," or other obscure passages like these should discourage imagination. Certainly not to the degree of "staying as far away as possible" from them!  There's plenty of room for interpretation, especially in a game like the Edain mod which expanded greatly upon mysterious passages with the Angmar faction alone, based on the Appendices and other sources, even including non-Tolkien authored sources.
  Furthermore, we know Sauron was long involved with cross-breeding. It's certainly within likelihood he did something with the men of Harad and trolls.
  I think, in the end, there's more evidence to support this interpretation than some might believe. At the very least encouragement to use the imagination!
  Good thoughts, mate! Thanks for the reply. :)

Watcher:
I agree with OnlytrueWitchKing that, if they are ever added, Half-Trolls become part of a "Evil-Men" faction (again, if its ever added). But I'd like to see them keep their original design; maybe with a bit more "Harad" influence.

If nothing else, they could be added as creeps, much like the corsair, in some Harad maps.

Only True Witchking:
"East rode the knights of Dol Amroth driving the enemy before them: troll-men and Variags and orcs that hated the sunlight…"

I did actually forget about that quote, you're right!

Although technically it doesn't mention half-trolls, so "this is the only mention of half-trolls in The Lord of the Rings" is correct :P

I agree that these "troll-men" are certainly the same as the men with black skin described earlier, however, I stand by the fact that these are men, not some kind of half-breed - for several reasons, one being the linguistics ("men like half-trolls" are not "half-trolls") and another one being biology.

Not only does the image of a troll and human reproducing have more things wrong with it than one can count (size??), but Tolkien also stated once that humans and elves can have children because they are of the same race:

"Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring [...]"

- Letter 153

Which is indeed how biology works.

Meanwhile trolls are some kind of "counterfeit" of ents, and not only do we not know if they can even have children themselves, but even if they can I don't think a human and such a thing could have children even without the size difference.

So in the end, troll-men and half-trolls are not only different things, the former are also definitely attested to (as they appear on the battle-field), while the latter can quite safely be cast into the realm of myth.
As for evidence; there is enough evidence - provided above - to support this argument, no evidence at all that the "troll-men" are actually half-trolls (as all evidence is against that) and very little evidence for the existence of half-trolls in general (namely one descriptor in a sentence).

So my position hasn't changed much - men from harad, possibly called troll-men, that have a fiendish appearance for Gondorian eyes due to their height and black skin, are fine, half-trolls are nonsense.

-OTWK

PS: Stone giants and were-worms are not comparable; and only were-worms are a good comparison to half-trolls. Stone giants are like the "troll-men", or like Dunlendings, Olog-hai or Mauhur: They make an appearance in the story, albeit a short one.
Were-worms, however, are mentioned only once, by someone who has at best heard a legend tell of them and lives countless miles away from the place where they supposedly live - so pretty similar to half-trolls.

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