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Autor Thema: heroic units usage (and lack of thereof)  (Gelesen 1462 mal)

turin.turambar

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heroic units usage (and lack of thereof)
« am: 3. Dez 2021, 17:54 »
As it stands, heroic units are more often than not fairly useless (at least that's the impression I got from the little meta I saw), barring a few exception. This comes in big part from the fact they're really expansive AND late game, and usually won't add that much to a faction if they're purely midgame troops enhanced.

As a way to avoid it, and considering the few units that DO see use are units slightly easier to recruit than by having all / most upgrades researched, I feel it would be good to allow them to be recruited without any upgrade researched, BUT at a higher price the more upgrades you lack to get them (eventually making them cost even less in lategame than their current price).

This way players would have a choice between getting heroic quite sooner than now, for an increased price, or keep them for lategame at a lesser price, or maybe simply not to get them.

Let me know what you think, and feel free to correct / ignore any false information as I almost never play PvP.

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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Re: heroic units usage (and lack of thereof)
« Antwort #1 am: 4. Dez 2021, 13:08 »
As it stands, heroic units are more often than not fairly useless (at least that's the impression I got from the little meta I saw), barring a few exception.
I know there was some talk on Discord about this, but I simply don't agree with this premise. Let's be specific about the heroic units that are recruitable:
  • Mordor has three heroic units, two of which are considered very good or op in pvp and the other one is decent
  • Isengard has one semi-heroic unit which is considered op
  • Rohan has one heroic unit which is commonly used
  • Gondor has two heroic units, one of which is considered op and one is rarely used
  • Imladris has three heroic units, none of them are built very often
  • Lothlorien has two heroic units, both are considered very powerful
  • Dwarves have one heroic unit, which is almost never seen
  • Angmar has two heroic units (if you don't count Werewolves) which are rarely seen

There are plenty of heroic units that are used in pvp, even though as lategame units they are the least frequent of all unit types simply because not every game will last that long. As far as pvp goes, I think it's much more fitting to say that there are some heroic units who underperform and could receive some buffs rather than saying the heroic units are bad in general. Even then, units like Lindon Guardians of Veterans of the Last Alliance aren't actually bad, they just suffer from Imladris being relatively weak currently and therefore you often die before recruiting them.

I think it would be far more useful to look at the individual units and come up with suggestions for them. Veterans of Khazad-Dûm are never used because the Travel Camp is unattractive in pvp. Imladris needs buffs. Guardians of the Citadel don't offer enough advantages over Tower Guards, so let's tweak their abilities.

Smeargollum

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Re: heroic units usage (and lack of thereof)
« Antwort #2 am: 11. Dez 2021, 11:54 »
I finally got time to write something here… better late than never I guess

First of all, as I already had stated on Discord the day turin.turambar came up with his idea, I do kind of like the core of his idea. However, I think that he wasn’t specific enough in his post here on the Modding Union, since I obviously agree with Elendil that not all heroic units are useless or rather that a lot of them are very good.
In order to get a bit more specific about the “heroic units problem” that I do see as well, it is good to take a look at each unit:

So, after looking at each heroic unit we can draw some conclusions:
  • When we divide all heroic units in their different unit types (melee infantry, archers and cavalry) we can see that heroic cavalry is very good/almost op (the only exception being the Wind Riders of Imladris), heroic archers are also kind of decent and melee infantry is rather weak.
  • When taking a closer look at the heroic melee infantry we notice another thing: Those that do require you to research upgrades before recruiting them are a lot weaker in game than those that don’t. (Example: Castellans are pretty useful as one can go for them rather fast just after buying an overall good outpost, whereas heroic units like Guardians of the Citadel, Black Guards of Angmar and Veterans of The Last Alliance are kind of useless/rarely seen). The only exceptions here being the Palast Guards of Lolo and in some way also the Khazad-Dûm Veterans, even though they are not that bad.

So, now in order to pick up the original suggestion again, I think it would be good if heroic melee infantry such as Guardians of the Citadel, Black Guards of Angmar and Veterans of The Last Alliance could be recruited even without researching upgrades beforehand but for a higher price of ruffly 1500.
I would like to see that change because it is always cooler to play with a microintensive unit that can level up to high levels and has several abilities, than with just some elite units with upgrades. At the moment you need to get some kind of forge/market place before you can research upgrades and then you need to spend 1800 resources on researching upgrades before you can get these heroic units which makes them to an ultra-LG unit. But at that stage of the game, they most of the time either just die to a huge amount of archers or they loose even to upgraded elite units since they will only be on level 1 on have relatively weak stats compared with elite units with upgrades, thus making them useless and practically banishing them from the game. If it would be possible to build them already earlier they could start levelling in the MG and then on higher levels they would be sturdier in the LG.
In addition to that I would like to see, as turin.turambar suggested, that as soon as you do research the upgrades the heroic unit would get cheaper. After researching the first upgrade they could be discounted to 1200 and after researching the second upgraded to 900, which would make them quite a bit cheaper for the LG but considering that they are almost never build in the LG right now it shouldn’t be too strong if they get a bit cheaper for that stage of the game.


 As a resume I will write what concrete changes I would like to see for each heroic unit:
  • Mordor:
    I think Castellans and Minas Morgul riders can stay unchanged. The Nazgul battalion could get a bit more expensive (like 2400 again) and maybe – if possible – a cooldown for the mount/unmount of the battalion would be good in order to nerf it a bit.
  • Isen:
    In order to nerf the scouts a bit it would be a good idea to a) nerf their level 5 ability and b) decrease their level bonus they get for each level since that is in my opinion to strong right now.
  • Gondor:
    For the Guardians of the Citadel it would be a good first step to implement the suggested change of making them recruitable without having to research upgrades, but for a price of 1500. And the Dol Amroth knights can stay like they are now.
  • Rohan:
    The Royal Riders are perfectly fine as well. 
  • Imladris:
    The Veterans of the Last Alliance should also be made recruitable without having to research upgrades beforehand. To make the Lindon archers a bit more attractive I would like to see Cirdan being a bit cheaper so that you can get them a bit earlier. For the Wind Riders I don’t really have an idea but here the user abstrakername made a suggestion that might be a good first step. 
  • Lolo:
    For Lolo both heroic units seem kind of fine as well at the moment so they don’t need a change. 
  • Dwarves:
    An option to increase the usefulness of Khazad-Dûm Veterans could be to give them a passive speedbuff, which would make them to a useful unit for Iron Hills and Erebor as they don’t have any fast units in their army. That would also make them more different to the other dwarves in the army which would also fit lore-wise quite well.
  • Angmar:
    For the Black Guard I would also like to see the change of making them recruitable for 1500 without having to research upgrades beforehand.


This are all my thoughts on heroic units at the moment. I would be interested in reading what other people think about them. [/list]


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AmosVogel

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Re: heroic units usage (and lack of thereof)
« Antwort #3 am: 19. Dez 2021, 18:07 »
What smeargollum wrote is very true, and i strongly agree with him:

Zitat
But at that stage of the game, they most of the time either just die to a huge amount of archers or they loose even to upgraded elite units since they will only be on level 1 on have relatively weak stats compared with elite units with upgrades, thus making them useless and practically banishing them from the game.

Already the imladris veterans can rise up to 20, why dont they come at level 10 (same goes to dwarven veterans, they could come at level 5 and then make them rise to level 10). As top elite units they should stand against any unit, this of course doesnt mean they couldnt be killed, they are veterans anyway, thus letting them be expensive but useful once summoned.

For the isengarders, i think they are pretty fine as they are now, for these guys are not  true elite but they grow in strenght if and only if the player uses them correctly.



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