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Autor Thema: How to promote both siege technique and map control ?  (Gelesen 1162 mal)

Le Sournois

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Battles we see in Edain ranked cup are often won by GG before a good siege has been put into practice unless I'm mistaken.

Each new version of Edain since the initial 4.5 seem to reduce inflation and make the situation of the defender increasingly difficult. And that is what it is supposed to be because otherwise why would we try to get map control at all if a good siege technique was too important ?

Here is my idea to promote siege even more but I must say I don't know if such ideas are technically possible.

The only idea that would in my opinion promote both siege technique and map control would be to introduce a gradation in the final result.

Instead of having 2 possible results : victory or defeat, there would be 4 different possibilites : victory, total victory, defeat and retreat

If that is technically possible, then my idea would be to introduce a new option in the citadel of the starting castle which would read "Organizing the retreat"

By this ability, the player would almost renonce the victory, but after some time after activation of this ability, if he has not been defeated, he will not loose completely the battle and get the final result "retreat" instead of "defeat", and his opponent will not enjoy the final result "total victory" but a simple "victory".

The effect of that ability could be something like that "in a perimeter around the citadel (which would include walls and the battlefield near the castle) units, heroes and building deal 10 % more damage and have 10 % more armor. Outside this perimeter, units, heroes and buildings will deal 75 % less damage and have 75 % less armor" After some time, if the defender is not defeated, the game will end".


With a system like that, the player should understand when victory cannot be achieved anymore and activate the ability not too late in ordrer to organize some defence and stand the ground.
The player who has map control will always win but a good siege technique will also be important if he wants to win the game completely.

In tournaments, the final result could give the player more or less points. In a 1v1, the result "victory" could offer 1 point and the result "total victory" could offer 2 points that could count for the rest of the match.

In the campaign in BFME 1, I remember that there was those 2 final results "victory" or "total victory". This is why I thought that maybe such an idea could be technically possible.

This mechanic would have some interest only with castle start game and not camp start in my opinion

« Letzte Änderung: 4. Mai 2022, 14:42 von Le Sournois »

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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Re: How to promote both siege technique and map control ?
« Antwort #1 am: 5. Mai 2022, 15:22 »
I am not sure whether sieges will ever be present in a majority of competitive 1v1 matches simply because those matches almost never actually get finished. Players usually type gg and leave the game instead of playing until defeat. As long as sieges occurr only at the end of a match, people playing 1v1 will nearly always skip them and go on to the next game. We tried several things to change this since 4.5: reducing max cp, increasing income so you can build static defense more easily, changing things about the spellbooks, etc. At the end of the day, 1v1s between highly skilled players are often decided by gaining mapcontrol and crushing an army in the open field - the siege is usually only an afterthought, so the player who lost his army concedes because a comeback through surviving a siege is unlikely.
That does not mean there are no sieges at all, however. Ram pushes in the midgame happen from time to time, lategame spells like the Earthquake or powerful summons are used to break into bases as well, and with factions like Mordor a comeback is always possible so sieges aren't all that rare.



Your idea to implement a difference between retreat/defeat sounds like a very interesting spin that could be used specifically for tournaments, I actually think it is very interesting. It might also lead to some hardcore turtling, but it could easily be tried out with a tournament submod that simply adds a button in your citadel: First it gives all your stuff a modifier as suggested, and after X amount of minutes it fires a weapon that kills all your own buildings, losing you the game.

IgRAzm

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Re: How to promote both siege technique and map control ?
« Antwort #2 am: 6. Mai 2022, 20:26 »
The only idea that would in my opinion promote both siege technique and map control would be to introduce a gradation in the final result.

Instead of having 2 possible results : victory or defeat, there would be 4 different possibilites : victory, total victory, defeat and retreat

If that is technically possible, then my idea would be to introduce a new option in the citadel of the starting castle which would read "Organizing the retreat"

By this ability, the player would almost renonce the victory, but after some time after activation of this ability, if he has not been defeated, he will not loose completely the battle and get the final result "retreat" instead of "defeat", and his opponent will not enjoy the final result "total victory" but a simple "victory".

The effect of that ability could be something like that "in a perimeter around the citadel (which would include walls and the battlefield near the castle) units, heroes and building deal 10 % more damage and have 10 % more armor. Outside this perimeter, units, heroes and buildings will deal 75 % less damage and have 75 % less armor" After some time, if the defender is not defeated, the game will end".


The sieges being secondary in the multiplayer games is a long-existing issue, stemming all the way from BFME I's inherent design IMO, but the mod had implemented many mechanics to correct it over years. I have to say that your solution sounds pretty elegant and comes from an angle I didn't consider, as my RTS mindset on game's end has only been about two binary outcomes, with very unlikely tie as third in some cases.

The OP, perhaps you can be interested with a discussion on this forum about the issue? https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,35487.0.html It seems like the posts from there actually had kickstarted a couple of economy reworks in Edain. Months ago I even suggested my ideas for a solution (the fourth from the end post is the first edition of it and the last is the second edition). They share similarity to yours but are about debuffing the attacker instead, until that player buys a research that upon completion releases their army from the debuff, on a condition that the squads visit the home fortress once. This is meant to force the winner out of a safe position starving out the opponent and defending the settlements on enemy's side of the map, that they had won from successful battles. By waiting under the debuff instead of getting rid of it at home, the player will be forced to siege the castle significantly weakened, or the army can eventually be outnumbered by the defending player whose units fill less CP.

Your idea seems much easier to implement and honestly doesn't need a lot of balancing unlike mine, it's also simpler for being optional wincondition that with certainty generates a siege event; mine is more like a super strong spellbook power that you only can use when you lose a large fight and in order to get unpinned by the opponent's blockade; if it is too strong it can either unnecessarily prolong game or throw all other balance off the table, but I think balanced correctly it can be solution to snowballing - the real reason for the sieges at a disadvantage being so predetermined.