Angmar Spellbook

[TheMostBurning]

Well,we all know,if you don't go away,that the spellbook that EA created for angmar simply sucks.It's fair to say,that the most useful powers of angmar in 2.01 are fell wind and gundabad orcs summon.Other powers are on average pretty weak.So as i love angmar faction,and i liked the gameplay it has in 2.02,i think that the most problematic issue of angmar is the spellbook.
I don't know what is going to be made about it in 3.5,anyway these are my ideas.
Fell wind remains the extremely useful power it has always been.6 pp.
War chant is a good early buff,but i thought that as all evil factions has a similar power(or it's even the same?),angmar could have a with area of effect(like mouth of sauron or wormtongue's power)with the same radius of WC that makes enemy units in the area suffer -25% damage/armor/speed and cancels buffs(unlike normal debuffs that don't cancel buffs but leadership).
I thought a lot about the blight power.It provides -70% production rate(in edain) to a enemy building.Anyway,it lasts only for a duration,while industry(+300%)lasts forever,basically it is useless,as it can't hurt enemy economy,especially if it is boosted.
I think instead that you it could be a tier two power that stops permanently the production rate of an enemy building.It would be extremely useful against lvl3 prod buildings,as the enemy after the power is used must rebuild a lvl1.But its main use is against isengard,as when you see that the enemy uses industry you can desable that building and the opponent loses his advantage,it should maintain its radius,so it can stop a whole circle of isengard furnaces(if not so it can't hurt isen economy).
These posts are going to be long,but there are so much things.
Snow blind could become a tier one power,it should have the same effect as ever,but it is more defensive than offensive,as it has the radius of industry.5 pp

[Shagrat]

I thought a lot about the blight power.It provides -70% production rate(in edain) to a enemy building.Anyway,it lasts only for a duration,while industry(+300%)lasts forever,basically it is useless,as it can't hurt enemy economy,especially if it is boosted.
I think instead that you it could be a tier two power that stops permanently the production rate of an enemy building.It would be extremely useful against lvl3 prod buildings,as the enemy after the power is used must rebuild a lvl1.But its main use is against isengard,as when you see that the enemy uses industry you can desable that building and the opponent loses his advantage,it should maintain its radius,so it can stop a whole circle of isengard furnaces(if not so it can't hurt isen economy).

Imbalanced, completely imbalanced. That's my opinion, the prod buildings are leveling really slow, with such a Spell you could catapult your opponent from Mid/Late-Game back into Early/Mid-Game


And "War Chant" is a spell. now, i think its more usefull to power up your troops than make your opponents troops weak.


(sorry for my english;))

[TheMostBurning]

About frozen land and orc summon,there's nothing to say,they are very good.
But the tier 3 powers are just

WHAT THE F*CK WHAT THE HECK XD

I mean,wights have been improved,now all greater wights have 1400 health.Ok,so now the summon should be decent because they need two volleys to be killed rather than one?lol
When i saw the the dragon summon first time,i thought that it could be stronger than the previous power,giants.Instead,i only noticed that while giants were one of the most useful(but underused for their spell path)power of the spellbook,now we have a dragon that has a very bad locomotor system,and that needs 3 hits to kill a 400 health unit -.-',at least it feezes units.
So,i suggest to delete that useless wight summon,and put in giants once again.
About the rain,it is very useful,however it would be good if it also debuffs enemy units,so it would have same effectiveness of darkness.
The tier 4 powers are a bit....imbalanced.As while avalanche can destroy an unupgraded fort with ease,udun gate has its strenght in the summon,like the watcher,but then it result a bit weak.
Maybe it seems i like criticizing,but it isn't so,as i only try to help  ,just my opinion

[Shagrat]

for the Ice-Dragon is a concept in the "Konzept-Sammlung" and yes i know, that the Angmars Avalance is imba. and the Dragon should stop enemys, he thats his priority not killing

and by the Udun Gate you can't controle the monster eather, so its not so imba

[Reshef]

Angmar have in the next version a few new spells in the spellbook.
So I mean that is not important to discuss about the actually.

[Shagrat]

Reshef, that should be interresting

and

Angmar have in the next version a few new spells in the spellbook.
So I mean that is not important to discuss about the actually.

we normal mortal users hasn't know that until now, if you can remember (no insult)

[TheMostBurning]

Imbalanced, completely imbalanced. That's my opinion, the prod buildings are leveling really slow, with such a Spell you could catapult your opponent from Mid/Late-Game back into Early/Mid-Game


And "War Chant" is a spell. now, i think its more usefull to power up your troops than make your opponents troops weak.


(sorry for my english;))

Hm,i take your point.However,there are  so many others overpowered things,that balancing means 1)improving various underpowered stuff 2)Nerfing various overpowered stuff.
In edain,one building grants as it levels up 10/15/20 resources.So,losing a lvl 3 building and building a lvl1,doesn't mean to come back to early game.A player can expand much faster than the opponent can be able to hurt so much his economy,but the blight would be a power to avoid the enemy builds a too stronger economy than yours.Anyway,a RB needs something like 5 minutes to reach lvl 2,and if blights has a recharge time of 3 minutes,it isn't so imblanced.
The point is,that considering the evil factions,goblin has generally cheaper stuff,while mordor and isengard have overpowered lumber mills(a lvl 3 lumber not boosted gives 40 resouces per laborer,or 60,i don't remeber exactly) and isen is ridicolously strong at gaining resources,angmar instead has a poor economy,and his units aren't cheap.If you can't be strong,make your enemy weaker.
This applies to the debuff i suggested,i thought to that because 1)angmar has really a few debuffs,compared to mordor for example 2)the goal of edain is to diversify the factions,so 4 war chant aren't that nice 3)i think you are wrong when you say that a buff is better than a debuff,as generally the debuffs are stronger than leadership or buffs.
Normally a debuff cancels leadership and gives a -25% damage/armor malus,this obviously mean that a army supported with a debuff results generally stronger than the other.The debuff i suggest instead,doesn't cancel ledership,as it's rare to see a leadership in early game(starting with 1000,and i mean the first 5 minutes of game),but it cancels buffs.
Now,im sorry but i must correct you,as if you search for it,you will find that war chant is a buff.The only spells in the game are darkness and the support powers that heroes have(like glorfindel's starlight).Being able to cancel a buff and weaken the enemy,i must admit however,would be overpowered,so only cancelling buufs would be enough.Just an idea.

About the fact that speaking about the spellbook is useless,apart that as shagrat said we didn't know that in 3.5 there are going to be new powers for angmar,after the 3.5 there will still be a 3.6,so it's not that useless to express ideas.

[TheMostBurning]

Ok,5 months passed since i proposed the new angmar spellbook.However now the new one came out,and i have new ideas.Here is my post from Mod DB.



Angmar Spellbook

Blight is a senseless power since 2.01.In 2.02 it has a really great effect,and it's a 25pp.The units in the area get poisoned and the ones posoned in the first 30 seconds become wights after death.This is surely a great power,however i have an other idea.
2 months ago i proposed to make blight reducing 100% rate of production of enemy buildings,to weaken the opponent's economy,rendering the level 3 RB and the industry power useless.But now i think it's not what i wish for angmar.
I propose to make blight a 15 pp power,tier 3,replacing Bande der Gruft(that should definitely be a tier 2 power,as more powerful heroes than karsh only need a tier 2 power,if it shouldn't even be deleted).
It would be a passive power,lowering the production rate of ALL opponent's RB by 25%.It allows angmar to face more powerful economies like mordor's or isengard's,while not changing its own at all.
For the tier 1 place left by blight i would put Terror of Angmar,a 5pp that cancels all enemy modifiers and debuff enemy units in a selected area(slightly bigger than warchant's one).
I think that the Werewolf power should be improved,meaning that also wolfriders should receive spiked collars,not only dire wolves,so people will be more encouraged to use a wolf start strategy.
Tier 3.Well,I already said that i want blight for tier 3,however here is where i sincerely think the team did the worst work.
First,i strongly recommend to add to the freezing rain's modifier a debuff,as it just isn't isn't as good as darkness only with a nullifier.
Ice Dragon.Ah,what can I say.I hated it first time i saw it replaced giants,but i was sure that after 2 version it was gonna be changed.And instead?No,ID is still there.Guys,i seriously can't even conceive how you could create a so stupid power.I mean,it just sucks.It is intended to freeze enemy units and slowdown them,but it's(completely)bugged.You didn't improve the 2.01 dragon locomotor at all,and we know it's bugged in a ridicolous way.Then,most times it freezes nothing,the only way you can be sure to freeze something is with the ice breath.Unfortunately,that works badly as well.In addition of this,the dragon is simply weak.I never take it in a game,as i know freezing rain is a tenh times better choice to reach avalanche.
Here is my suggestion:replace Ice Dragon with a power that has the same purpose,but that will work much better.Frost Core(it's just a name,it can be changed :b).It's just like Soul Freeze,but lasts 30 seconds and has a radius of 300.I think that it will be much more useful than the ice dragon,it's like a Snow Blind for units.
Lastly avalanche should be tweaked(how much siege damage per chunk,450?)as i alway kill all buildings of the enemy plus the fort with it,meaning that with this power i can win the game in one hit.Once i was on a 1v1 and i won this way!
About Udun tor...most people say that it's strenght is in the summon.But as udun tor is as slow as balrog when summoning,it's purpose can't be that.The strenght of the watcher is precisely in the summon,as it is fast and it deals 1000 crush damage.The balrog compensates the speed of his summon with an amazing power,but udun tor does not.Udun tor isn't good at killing armies,as summoned unit just die easily,even being unable to select appropriate targets,and it sucks at killing bases.Now i would think you made a power weak and when you noticed it you improved avalanche to compensate.I call this IMBA.But i want to believe you didn't want this.Then,why don't you finally improve the summons?I have a idea for Udun Tor really,but i think that it could be a good power even if it remains as you made it,if well done.My idea is to realize udun tor as a black icy vortex with radius 300,lasting 15 seconds and dealing 200 magic damge and 50 frost damage per second,it perfectly fits with the tolkien's lore i think.


I definitely think Bande der gruft is a useless power.Heroes like King Elessar,Gandalf the White and Saruman of many colours are much more useful than karsh.They are all the strongest heroes of their factions,while karsh it's not.A 14pp just isn't worth to have him permanently.The secod effect of reviving wights is useless as well.No one creates wights armies,and the wights created by wells of souls are level 1,so they aren't affected by the power.

[Shagrat]

Ok,5 months passed since i proposed the new angmar spellbook.However now the new one came out,and i have new ideas.Here is my post from Mod DB.



Angmar Spellbook

Blight is a senseless power since 2.01.In 2.02 it has a really great effect,and it's a 25pp.The units in the area get poisoned and the ones posoned in the first 30 seconds become wights after death.This is surely a great power,however i have an other idea.
2 months ago i proposed to make blight reducing 100% rate of production of enemy buildings,to weaken the opponent's economy,rendering the level 3 RB and the industry power useless.But now i think it's not what i wish for angmar.
I propose to make blight a 15 pp power,tier 3,replacing Bande der Gruft(that should definitely be a tier 2 power,as more powerful heroes than karsh only need a tier 2 power,if it shouldn't even be deleted).
It would be a passive power,lowering the production rate of ALL opponent's RB by 25%.It allows angmar to face more powerful economies like mordor's or isengard's,while not changing its own at all.
For the tier 1 place left by blight i would put Terror of Angmar,a 5pp that cancels all enemy modifiers and debuff enemy units in a selected area(slightly bigger than warchant's one).
I think that the Werewolf power should be improved,meaning that also wolfriders should receive spiked collars,not only dire wolves,so people will be more encouraged to use a wolf start strategy.
Tier 3.Well,I already said that i want blight for tier 3,however here is where i sincerely think the team did the worst work.
First,i strongly recommend to add to the freezing rain's modifier a debuff,as it just isn't isn't as good as darkness only with a nullifier.
Ice Dragon.Ah,what can I say.I hated it first time i saw it replaced giants,but i was sure that after 2 version it was gonna be changed.And instead?No,ID is still there.Guys,i seriously can't even conceive how you could create a so stupid power.I mean,it just sucks.It is intended to freeze enemy units and slowdown them,but it's(completely)bugged.You didn't improve the 2.01 dragon locomotor at all,and we know it's bugged in a ridicolous way.Then,most times it freezes nothing,the only way you can be sure to freeze something is with the ice breath.Unfortunately,that works badly as well.In addition of this,the dragon is simply weak.I never take it in a game,as i know freezing rain is a tenh times better choice to reach avalanche.
Here is my suggestion:replace Ice Dragon with a power that has the same purpose,but that will work much better.Frost Core(it's just a name,it can be changed :b).It's just like Soul Freeze,but lasts 30 seconds and has a radius of 300.I think that it will be much more useful than the ice dragon,it's like a Snow Blind for units.
Lastly avalanche should be tweaked(how much siege damage per chunk,450?)as i alway kill all buildings of the enemy plus the fort with it,meaning that with this power i can win the game in one hit.Once i was on a 1v1 and i won this way!
About Udun tor...most people say that it's strenght is in the summon.But as udun tor is as slow as balrog when summoning,it's purpose can't be that.The strenght of the watcher is precisely in the summon,as it is fast and it deals 1000 crush damage.The balrog compensates the speed of his summon with an amazing power,but udun tor does not.Udun tor isn't good at killing armies,as summoned unit just die easily,even being unable to select appropriate targets,and it sucks at killing bases.Now i would think you made a power weak and when you noticed it you improved avalanche to compensate.I call this IMBA.But i want to believe you didn't want this.Then,why don't you finally improve the summons?I have a idea for Udun Tor really,but i think that it could be a good power even if it remains as you made it,if well done.My idea is to realize udun tor as a black icy vortex with radius 300,lasting 15 seconds and dealing 200 magic damge and 50 frost damage per second,it perfectly fits with the tolkien's lore i think.

ok. I THINk blight is good as it is, because you can disturb your enemy in early game and even Lategame, this passive Spell is already by the Witch-King, when he got the Ring + the Recuitment of Soldiers of the enemy needs + 20% (?) of normal time

the Bande der Gruft as 15er Spell is good in my opinion, because you can Karsh have instand level 10, so it would be to strong and the Barrow-Wight summon is a realy good spell.

I never had Problems with the Ice Dragon, ok he's to weak, but in my opinion, you just have to make im Stronger (and the Box for mark him bigger^^ as enemy you nearly can't attack him^^)

the Udun-Tor is great how it is,  because it's a tunnel you can sey to Udun (not Utumno or Udun in Mordor) to the Underworld of Middle-Earth, where Creatures are who maybe nobody has ever seen (except from Illuvater and the Valars^^)

The Bande der Gruft is not useless, Karsh is an Hero-Killer and a great unit kiler if you use him right, in the actual Version he can kill Saruman, Gandalf the Whit and even Sauron with Ring with his Stage 8 Ability, i think its gonna be weaker in one of the next Versions, but he is usefull

[TheMostBurning]

Blight remains useless.No economy will get hurt by weakening(temporarily)the production rate of only one building.Any player will rebuild a level 1 building affected,so it hasn't any use at all,people just take it as it brings to werewolves.
A level 3 RB affected by Eternal Winter produces 240 resources per minute,Blight would make it produce 225 resources per minute.You could say it's only 15 resources less,but it doesn't need the Witch King nor the one ring.At this point we could say rain of fire is useless as sauron has fires of gorgoroth that are even more useful,but that doesn't make sense

Karsh is a pretty good hero,i never negated it,but he isn't as useful as Sauron(altough he could kill him).I think that Bande der gruft should remain,but only as a tier two 8 pp power.

A massive soul of freeze is definitely better than the ice dragon in every way(it can save your army and stop the enemy's one),however the radius should be 200,or it is too strong.

The udun tor is good yes,but only if it would be a tier 3.Summoned units are just too weak and they are hostile to the summoner,i already listed the reasons it is weak for.The effect i propose is just like the cirdan's Maelstrom,but bigger and stronger.

[(Palland)Raschi]

Well ok, I have to admit the Blight spell is not that effective as it should be or is supposed to be by the Modders, but Karsh is an very strong hero anyway. His first abilities are such strong that they could be considered  to be unfair. You can teleport to every place on the map attack and then become invisible by using the second Spell. Since the spellpoints are worth.
The Udun Spell is strong as well and actually a great idea as well. Why should one change it ?
It fits, it is strong, and it contains the risk of beeing attacked by this creatures coming out of Udun oneself.
Anyway i wonder why you want to change the whole Spellbook, although there are no really problems of strength and balance ?
Just the Blight spell schould be changed, but the rest fits perfectly 

[TheMostBurning]

Well ok, I have to admit the Blight spell is not that effective as it should be or is supposed to be by the Modders, but Karsh is an very strong hero anyway. His first abilities are such strong that they could be considered  to be unfair. You can teleport to every place on the map attack and then become invisible by using the second Spell. Since the spellpoints are worth.
The Udun Spell is strong as well and actually a great idea as well. Why should one change it ?
It fits, it is strong, and it contains the risk of beeing attacked by this creatures coming out of Udun oneself.
Anyway i wonder why you want to change the whole Spellbook, although there are no really problems of strength and balance ?
Just the Blight spell schould be changed, but the rest fits perfectly 

Not exactly,the only thing i want to delete at all is the ice dragon,to replace it with a decent 18 pp power.
Blight well,it's just the worst power of the game.Bande der gruft needs to replace wights summon,really a few people purchase that(orcs are way better)and even though karsh is great a tier 2 passive spell is enough.
The udun tor is definitely weak,and avalanche too strong.Avalanche can be a one hit game winner,the creatures from udun tor die facing a late game army

[Shagrat]

Avalnache is imba, it's already known, it's not allowed to put that spell onb to an oponnents fortress

[TheMostBurning]

This basically means that a player can't use Avalanche because he would be a lamer.This hasn't been changed,in 2 versions

[Shagrat]

This basically means that a player can't use Avalanche because he would be a lamer.This hasn't been changed,in 2 versions

he can use it, but not on to an not upgradet fortress^^ (only if the fortress is nearly destroyed^^)

[TheMostBurning]

However avalanche is only the edge of the iceberg.You could think i just want to criticize,but i've been greatly disappointed by the fact the spellbook is still weak.

[(Palland)Raschi]

just the ice dragon and blight are too weak, but the rest is perfectly all right, and I personally do not see any reasons to change it almost completly as you are planning or just recommending.

[TheMostBurning]

I only suggest to replace wights summon with BdG,and BdG with blight.Then i proposed 2 new powers and to improve 2 existing ones.It's not that much,considering how much the dwarven spellbook changed in 2 versions.
But blight could be replaced by frozen land,and frozen land by Frost Core,so if you like so much that underpowered dragon it can remain ,although FC should be tweaked by reducing a little the radius.

[(Palland)Raschi]

I also admited that the dragon is too weak for his price, so do not let me be missunderstood 

[Shagrat]

I also admited that the dragon is too weak for his price, so do not let me be missunderstood 

in my opinion, the Dragon don't must replaced, he just have to made stronger, for example with new abilities

[TheMostBurning]

I guess it's simpler to replace it with an istant cast spell,an ice dragon isn't canonical at all.

[Shagrat]

I guess it's simpler to replace it with an istant cast spell,an ice dragon isn't canonical at all.

an user already have an concept for the dragon in the Konzept-Sammlun^^

[TheMostBurning]

Can you link it?

[Shagrat]

here

[TheMostBurning]

Maybe I'll be the only one against the upgrade for the icedragon,but i keep saying that an istant cast spell is far superior to a summon.It's like saying that blight was improved because now it provides -70% resources instead of -50%

[Adamin]

We appreciate your input TheMostBurning. It's always good to here some new ideas and thoughts.

However I don't see the point in your suggested Frost Core Spell. You said it yourself that its just a copy of the sorcerers Soul Freeze ability; so there is no uniqueness to the spell and therefore it's worse than the ice-dragon.

[TheMostBurning]

Although,most people underestimate the great support coming from sorcerers,and as freezing allies to defend them and enemies to stop,flank and make summons useless are strategies very rarely seen in-game,i'd like a lot a power like this.Sorcerers have 5 abilities,and Fell Strenght can be compared to War Chant(although comparing is useless as they stack).But an istant spell that can be cast everywhere at anytime is more useful than a situational one like Soul Freeze.I know what you mean saying that the ice dragon is more unique,but i definitely think that the ice dragon,as it is now,is useless.

[Dralo]

i think the ice dragon is already enough powerfull, its a spell for only 15 spell points (try to summon it right in the middle of the enemies army -> some soldiers will die instantly and many will be frozen by its breathing)
and you already said it - the sorcerers have also five very usefull spells.
and we must not forget, that you may also make Gulzar who in fact has very powerfull Spells

[TheMostBurning]

Wyrm and watcher are two tier 3 summons,and are way better than the dragon.Yes,wyrm is weak to pikes and watcher to arrows(even too much imho)but they at least one hit kill most units.