Modding Union
[en] Edain Mod => [Edain] Suggestions => [Edain] General Suggestions => Thema gestartet von: turin.turambar am 3. Dez 2021, 17:54
-
As it stands, heroic units are more often than not fairly useless (at least that's the impression I got from the little meta I saw), barring a few exception. This comes in big part from the fact they're really expansive AND late game, and usually won't add that much to a faction if they're purely midgame troops enhanced.
As a way to avoid it, and considering the few units that DO see use are units slightly easier to recruit than by having all / most upgrades researched, I feel it would be good to allow them to be recruited without any upgrade researched, BUT at a higher price the more upgrades you lack to get them (eventually making them cost even less in lategame than their current price).
This way players would have a choice between getting heroic quite sooner than now, for an increased price, or keep them for lategame at a lesser price, or maybe simply not to get them.
Let me know what you think, and feel free to correct / ignore any false information as I almost never play PvP.
-
As it stands, heroic units are more often than not fairly useless (at least that's the impression I got from the little meta I saw), barring a few exception.
I know there was some talk on Discord about this, but I simply don't agree with this premise. Let's be specific about the heroic units that are recruitable:
- Mordor has three heroic units, two of which are considered very good or op in pvp and the other one is decent
- Isengard has one semi-heroic unit which is considered op
- Rohan has one heroic unit which is commonly used
- Gondor has two heroic units, one of which is considered op and one is rarely used
- Imladris has three heroic units, none of them are built very often
- Lothlorien has two heroic units, both are considered very powerful
- Dwarves have one heroic unit, which is almost never seen
- Angmar has two heroic units (if you don't count Werewolves) which are rarely seen
There are plenty of heroic units that are used in pvp, even though as lategame units they are the least frequent of all unit types simply because not every game will last that long. As far as pvp goes, I think it's much more fitting to say that there are some heroic units who underperform and could receive some buffs rather than saying the heroic units are bad in general. Even then, units like Lindon Guardians of Veterans of the Last Alliance aren't actually bad, they just suffer from Imladris being relatively weak currently and therefore you often die before recruiting them.
I think it would be far more useful to look at the individual units and come up with suggestions for them. Veterans of Khazad-Dûm are never used because the Travel Camp is unattractive in pvp. Imladris needs buffs. Guardians of the Citadel don't offer enough advantages over Tower Guards, so let's tweak their abilities.
-
I finally got time to write something here… better late than never I guess
First of all, as I already had stated on Discord the day turin.turambar came up with his idea, I do kind of like the core of his idea. However, I think that he wasn’t specific enough in his post here on the Modding Union, since I obviously agree with Elendil that not all heroic units are useless or rather that a lot of them are very good.
In order to get a bit more specific about the “heroic units problem” that I do see as well, it is good to take a look at each unit:
Mordor has three heroic units, two of which are considered very good or op in pvp and the other one is decent
I agree with you here, that Castellans and Morgul Riders are good and the Nazgulbattalion (if you count it as a heroic unit) is kind of op at the moment. However, you don’t need to research any upgrades before you are able to recruit any of these units which enables you to get them a lot faster and support your army with them very well. Isengard has one semi-heroic unit which is considered op
This is also true, but you get this unit as a starter unit or you can recruit it in the barracks right away, which makes it possible to start level them right from the start of the game and snowball with them. Rohan has one heroic unit which is commonly used
The heroic Royal Cavalry of Rohan is very good as well, even though you need upgrades before you can recruit them. Gondor has two heroic units, one of which is considered op and one is rarely used
It’s right that the Dol Amroth knight are a little op at the moment and Guardians of the Citadel are completely useless. The reason for the first is that a) they are once again heroic cavalry and b) that you don’t need any upgrades before you can recruit them ( you can use the discount of the inside eco for something else) and the reason for the uselessness of the Guardians is that they are just infantry that comes only in the LG after researching upgrades. Imladris has three heroic units, none of them are built very often
This is true as well. The Lindon archers are rarely seen because you need Cirdan before you can recruit them which doesn’t really make them to an option in the EG-MG and later on they are not that useful since they are not great against upgrades archers. Veterans of the Last Alliance are completely useless as you can only get them after researching upgrades and as normal melee infantry, they don’t add anything to your army that you need and don’t already have. And the Imladris heroic cavalry unit is actually the only heroic cavalry unit that is almost never seen… I guess that’s because they also don’t really do anything that their elite equivalent doesn’t already do. Lothlorien has two heroic units, both are considered very powerful
These are both units that do require upgrades before you can recruit them but they are still very good. I see two reasons for that, one being Lolo not having heavy armour that needs to be researched to build heroic units and the other one being that Lolo is very comfortable in the LG and the player is happy to add any cool unit to the army, that he can find. Dwarves have one heroic unit, which is almost never seen
The Khazad-Dûm Veterans are very rarely seen even though you don’t need upgrades to recruit them but the reason for that is, in my opinion, that they aren’t really better than normal dwarven elite units in the melee (well they are, but since dwarven elite units are already better than anything of the opponent in the melee you don’t need a unit that is even better). Angmar has two heroic units (if you don't count Werewolves) which are rarely seen
Here we can once again see that Black Guards (or however the heroic melee infantry unit is called^^) is pretty weak, since you need to research blades and armour before you can recruit them, and then in the LG they are just a second breakfast for archers. I guess the other unit you are referring to is the heroic cavalry over the spell (?), which is also kind of good but you need a lot of spellpoint to get it so it’s not seen often.
So, after looking at each heroic unit we can draw some conclusions:
- When we divide all heroic units in their different unit types (melee infantry, archers and cavalry) we can see that heroic cavalry is very good/almost op (the only exception being the Wind Riders of Imladris), heroic archers are also kind of decent and melee infantry is rather weak.
- When taking a closer look at the heroic melee infantry we notice another thing: Those that do require you to research upgrades before recruiting them are a lot weaker in game than those that don’t. (Example: Castellans are pretty useful as one can go for them rather fast just after buying an overall good outpost, whereas heroic units like Guardians of the Citadel, Black Guards of Angmar and Veterans of The Last Alliance are kind of useless/rarely seen). The only exceptions here being the Palast Guards of Lolo and in some way also the Khazad-Dûm Veterans, even though they are not that bad.
So, now in order to pick up the original suggestion again, I think it would be good if heroic melee infantry such as Guardians of the Citadel, Black Guards of Angmar and Veterans of The Last Alliance could be recruited even without researching upgrades beforehand but for a higher price of ruffly 1500.
I would like to see that change because it is always cooler to play with a microintensive unit that can level up to high levels and has several abilities, than with just some elite units with upgrades. At the moment you need to get some kind of forge/market place before you can research upgrades and then you need to spend 1800 resources on researching upgrades before you can get these heroic units which makes them to an ultra-LG unit. But at that stage of the game, they most of the time either just die to a huge amount of archers or they loose even to upgraded elite units since they will only be on level 1 on have relatively weak stats compared with elite units with upgrades, thus making them useless and practically banishing them from the game. If it would be possible to build them already earlier they could start levelling in the MG and then on higher levels they would be sturdier in the LG.
In addition to that I would like to see, as turin.turambar suggested, that as soon as you do research the upgrades the heroic unit would get cheaper. After researching the first upgrade they could be discounted to 1200 and after researching the second upgraded to 900, which would make them quite a bit cheaper for the LG but considering that they are almost never build in the LG right now it shouldn’t be too strong if they get a bit cheaper for that stage of the game.
As a resume I will write what concrete changes I would like to see for each heroic unit:
- Mordor:
I think Castellans and Minas Morgul riders can stay unchanged. The Nazgul battalion could get a bit more expensive (like 2400 again) and maybe – if possible – a cooldown for the mount/unmount of the battalion would be good in order to nerf it a bit. - Isen:
In order to nerf the scouts a bit it would be a good idea to a) nerf their level 5 ability and b) decrease their level bonus they get for each level since that is in my opinion to strong right now. - Gondor:
For the Guardians of the Citadel it would be a good first step to implement the suggested change of making them recruitable without having to research upgrades, but for a price of 1500. And the Dol Amroth knights can stay like they are now. - Rohan:
The Royal Riders are perfectly fine as well. - Imladris:
The Veterans of the Last Alliance should also be made recruitable without having to research upgrades beforehand. To make the Lindon archers a bit more attractive I would like to see Cirdan being a bit cheaper so that you can get them a bit earlier. For the Wind Riders I don’t really have an idea but here (https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,33672.msg487225.html#msg487225) the user abstrakername made a suggestion that might be a good first step. - Lolo:
For Lolo both heroic units seem kind of fine as well at the moment so they don’t need a change. - Dwarves:
An option to increase the usefulness of Khazad-Dûm Veterans could be to give them a passive speedbuff, which would make them to a useful unit for Iron Hills and Erebor as they don’t have any fast units in their army. That would also make them more different to the other dwarves in the army which would also fit lore-wise quite well. - Angmar:
For the Black Guard I would also like to see the change of making them recruitable for 1500 without having to research upgrades beforehand.
This are all my thoughts on heroic units at the moment. I would be interested in reading what other people think about them. [/list]
-
What smeargollum wrote is very true, and i strongly agree with him:
But at that stage of the game, they most of the time either just die to a huge amount of archers or they loose even to upgraded elite units since they will only be on level 1 on have relatively weak stats compared with elite units with upgrades, thus making them useless and practically banishing them from the game.
Already the imladris veterans can rise up to 20, why dont they come at level 10 (same goes to dwarven veterans, they could come at level 5 and then make them rise to level 10). As top elite units they should stand against any unit, this of course doesnt mean they couldnt be killed, they are veterans anyway, thus letting them be expensive but useful once summoned.
For the isengarders, i think they are pretty fine as they are now, for these guys are not true elite but they grow in strenght if and only if the player uses them correctly.