Now in this idea i want to give the trolls a different armor based on which upgrade you choose. The different armors give different bonus relevant to your upgrade.
This would massively improve the use of trolls. Currently its a little too complicated to get the trolls to their full potential. Now you first have to use influence, then upgrade them once and then again.
The way this usually plays out is that you upgrade them once and then you have alot of other stuff to focus on and often you forget which trolls are upgraded with what. (ofc you can see their weapon, but sometimes it doesnt even show it that well.)
If there was only one upgrade and the trolls would look different, it would not only improve the gameplay alot, but also the ecxperience of the game.
The idea
Now instead of first upgrading the troll with armor and then the weapon, the trolls get armor based on which weapon they choose, and get different bonuses from each armor. The upgrades now become more expensive and take longer to upgrade but the trolls get more useful in the game.
Armor and weapons
Hammer (Minas Morgul)
-Armor: Minas Tirith breach armor
-Bonus: Higher durability against arrows
Mace - Changed to the wooden mace (Dol Guldur)
-Armor: BOTFA
-Bonus: Higher durability against spears
Sword (Morannon)
-Armor: Mollocks armor
-Bonus: Higher durability against heroes and other single targets
Mollock
Now Mollock is actually a non canon hero, and Mordor already has tons of heroes, so maybe just another mass slayer, or just buff Sauron a little to make him more fun to make up for it. Or this buff of trolls would make up for him.
Uhm it seems I gave my own twist to the idea on moddb xD. However what do you guys actually think about this? Quoted from moddb:
If you buy the Dol Guldur Armor, the Troll will get a club and increased damage against units. If you buy Morgul Armor, the Troll will get a hammer and increased damage against buildings. If you buy the Morannon armor, the Troll will get a sword and is strong against heroes.
In any case this will solve the problem of having to buy too many upgrades for the Trolls (buy the Troll, then the armor, then the weapon), and as a bonus it will make them compliment each of Mordors realms.
Now the problem with the Morannon armor is that Mollock's unique look won't be so unique anymore :P. I found a more "stripped" version of his Armor, which should still give Mollock an unique feeling (removing the spikes on his arm guard ofcourse):
(http://www.zbrushcentral.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=198627)
What do you guys think?
Thanks for the reply`s everyone!:D
But i came up with an easier an maybe even more simple suitable solution:
I think that the trolls of mordor should have only one upgrade, this upgrade would give them armor and give them the ability to switch between the mace and the hammer, ive always thought the sword to be unecessary, since you often want to use heroes or other units to kill single targets
WHY?
I still havent seen any change for the trolls, which i think are still somewhat laggy, and a bit annoying to use. This would be a really simple and not time consuming way to improve the trolls quite a bit
Now I think this would make the trolls much more usable and valuable to your army!
The sword was unnecessary anyways, i think trolls should be used mainly for two things to take down structures and to deal heavy blows to as many troops as possible.
HOW?
It would work almost exactly as it does at the moment.
The trolls cost like 800, the first upgrade is 300 and the second is 300
But if they were to only have one upgrade that cost 800, that gives armor and the ability to switch between mace and hammer.
Now since these trolls might be olog hai i dont see it unfitting that they could have the brains to use different weapons for different situations. (if logical reasons were needed:D)
Also i think the botfa armor should go to the misty moutains faction, i also have an idea on how to implement it there!:D
I just took a look at the English forum while procatinating in the library of my university [ugly]
I do support that idea to make the troll-gameplay easier and give them more variety with that "simple" change. It also would add a more specific decision for the player which makes the game more interesting.
For this reason I pretty much disagree with the idea of a weapon-switch, that would just be very op. This decision has to be permanent.
If the sword-troll is useless, make him usefull! I always liked the idea that there are 3 options: building-destruction, mass-slaying and single-target-damage.
The Morannon-troll could get an ability to force heroes or single units as Beorningers to stop. This was just a spontanous idea I got from the scene at the Black Gate where Aragorn stops for a moment as he sees the troll walking right in his direction.
This ability could be named confrontation or defiance.
I would like to see the change graphically, but you should definitly put in some pictures if you suggest such a thing.
In particular the BOFTA-design could mean everything. In my oppinion there were some good designs in it, but a lot of shitty ones aswell. This Troll must look like he could take some spears, before he dies. So let me help you a bit:
(http://www.thelandofshadow.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Trolls1.jpg)
(https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/5/5f/Attack_Troll.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090415184706)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTAwWDI5Mw==/z/CUwAAOSwyQtVt82l/$_1.JPG)
As you can see, the Trolls somehow match your description: The Dol-Guldur-troll one has his whole face coverd and can´t be stabbed there, the Minas-Morgul-troll has big shoulder armory and a wide open helmet to avoid arrows from above him and the Morannon-Troll has well armoured belly and forearms.
Mollok is actually pretty useless and should be removed, because mordor already has more than enough heroes. I never build him, because it´s just not worth the ressources and attention.
The Witchking and Ring-Sauron should be the mass-slayers. Besides that he doesn´t belong to the lore and was just made up by tabletop. That would make Bill, Tom and Bert even more unique... ;)
With Azogs permission I transleted this suggestion into German to reach out into this part of the forum aswell and made a lot of things more specific alongside of adding graphic propositions for the different trolls. I don´t have time to translate it know back into English, but will probably do it later. If someone want to translate it, feel free, I´ll see and correct it if something was missunderstood or not translated properly:
Konzept zur Vereinfachung, Verbesserung und Visualisierung der Troll-Upgrades:
"What is this new devilry?"
Im englischen Teil des Forums bin ich auf eine recht interessante Idee gestoßen, welche ich mit Erlaubnis des Urhebers Azog the Defiler hier in leicht veränderter Form präsentieren möchte:
Die Trolle und ihr Upgrade-System sind für mich eines der stimmungsvollsten und interessantesten Konzepte im Mordor-Spiel, welche aber leider momentan viel zu kurz kommen. Das hat folgende Gründe:
1. Trolle sind als Einzeleinheiten sehr schwer zu steuern bzw. am Leben zu halten und dabei vergleichsweise einfach zu kontern, da sie im Grunde auf 3 Arten eliminiert werden können: Bogenschützen, Speerträger und Helden mit hohem Einzelschaden. Außerdem fällt ein Troll auf Grund seiner Größe sofort auf und wird von guten Spielern unmittelbar "herausgepickt". Das führt dazu, dass es dem Spieler im Eifer des Gefechts oft einfach nicht wert ist Trolle zu bauen geschweige denn teure Upgrades für sie zu erwerben. Das wiederum verflacht das Gameplay und führt zum "hirnlosen Ork-Gespamme", welches man in meinen Augen vermeiden sollte.
2. Das Troll-Upgrade-System ist sehr umständlich: Die Upgrades müssen erst durch den Nekromanten freigeschaltet werden, dann muss jeder Troll mit einer Rüstung versehen werden und anschließend mit einer Waffe, was eine Menge kostbarer Zeit kostet.
3. Trolle sind in gewisser Weise selbst mit Upgrades (dann gehe ich für den Konter selbstverständlich auch von Upgrades aus), so wie sie momentan sind, etwas dysfunktional:
Als Massenvernichter sind sie zu anfällig gegen Speere, als Belagerungswaffen zu anfällig gegen Pfeile und als Heldentöter zu anfällig gegen Helden mit hohem Schaden (z.B. Aragorn).
Diese Probleme sollen mit diesem Konzept entschärft werden. Die Trolle sollen also mitnichten gestärkt oder geschwächt werden, sondern es geht einfach um klarere, funktionalere Rollen für die einzelnen Troll-Spezialisierungen ohne das Gameplay komplett auf den Kopf zu stellen. Ich finde auch nicht, dass die Trolle momentan ein komplett kaputtes Gameplay besitzen, aber ein bisschen Feintuning ist immer möglich... :P
Der erste Schritt wäre das Streichen des Rüstungsupgrades. Die Rüstung wird automatisch mit erworben, wenn man den Troll mit einer Waffe ausrüstet. Dabei handelt es sich aber zunächst nur um die Standart-Rüstung, also nur Helm und höchstens einzelne Rüstungsteile, welche dem Troll nur einen geringfügig geringeren Rüstungsbonus geben sollte als aktuell, dafür ist das Ganze aber auch entsprechend billiger. Die Rüstung sollte erstmal irgendwie improvisiert (wie alles bei Mordor) und etwas leichter wirken (gerne auch mit Random-Modellen), etwa wie bei den Trollen, welche im Film die Belagerungstürme schieben:
(http://razorsedgecollectibles.com/images/9453.jpg)
Die Idee wäre nun abhängig von der Wahl des Vorpostens das Trollwaffen-Upgrade zu ganzen Troll-Ausrüstungen zu verändern, welche jeweils andere Rüstungsboni geben um damit jeweils eine der drei Kontermöglichkeiten zu eliminieren. Die Ausrüstungen sind keine zusätzlichen Upgrades sondern einfach eine Veränderung der Waffenupgrades. Trolle die mit den Standartupgrades ausgerüstet wurden lassen sich daher der Einfachheit halber nichtmehr verändern.
Das System sollte allerdings noch durch einen passiven Slot im Troll-Käfig erklärt werden, damit der Spieler auch die Optionen kennt, bevor er sich für einen Vorposten entscheidet. Vielleicht kann man das Ganze auch zusätzlich beim Wechselpalantir für die Upgrades einbauen. Dort gibt es dann einen passiven Slot Domänen-Ausrüstungen in dem die Möglichkeiten erklärt werden.
Nochmal in kurz: Die Idee ist nicht Mordor das Erlangen von Kampftrollen ohne Domänen zu verwehren, sondern das Rüstungsupgrade einzusparen, indem es in das Waffenupgrade integriert wird! Dabei soll sich das Gameplay der Trolle nicht großartig ändern, außer, dass sie etwas weniger aushalten, aber dafür auch etwas billiger sind und das auch nur damit die spezialisierten Trolle nicht zu stark werden. Wieviel genau wird man dann beim Testen sehen müssen.
Die spezialisierten Domänenrüstungen kämen dann später im Spiel zum Tragen...
Doch nun zu den Ausrüstungen im Einzelnen:
(https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/5/5f/Attack_Troll.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090415184706)
Die Morgul-Ausrüstung ist die Weiterentwicklung des Hammer-Upgrades und verleiht dem Troll verstärkte Rüstung gegen Bogenschützen, er ist also nur noch besonders anfällig gegen Speere und Helden. Das zwingt den belagerten Spieler seine Festung zu verlassen um sich um die Hammer-Trolle zu kümmern.
Die Rüstungsteile spiegeln das ganz gut wieder:
Der offene, weite Helm fängt Pfeile aus verschiedenen Richtungen ab und die großen Zacken sind dazu geeignet Pfeile die den Troll eigentlich treffen würden abzulenken. Die großen Schulterschützer passen dabei auch gut ins Gesamtkonzept.
Das passt auch ganz gut in den Kanon, da Minas Morgul sich lange auf die Belagerung Minas Tiriths vorbereiten konnte und dabei mussten sie auf Grund der aufsteigenden Ringe der Stadt mit besonders viel Beschuss durch Bogenschützen rechnen.
(http://www.thelandofshadow.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Trolls1.jpg)
Dieses Design kommt aus den Hobbit-Filmen und ist eines der wenigen Troll-Designe, die mir wirklich gut gefallen haben. Die Dol-Guldur-Ausrüstung ist die Weiterentwicklung des Keulen-Upgrades und erhält verstärkte Rüstung gegen Speerträger. Dadurch kann der Spieler den Keulen-Troll mit weniger Bedenken mitten in feindliche Nahkämpfer schicken, auch wenn dort ein Speerträger-Batallion dabei ist. Nur so wird der Troll ja seiner Aufgabe wirklich gerecht.
Auch hier passt das Rüstungsdesign, welches besonders die Vorderseite und fast das ganze Gesicht abdeckt sehr gut, da Speerträger so große Schwierigkeiten haben würden den Troll aus der Ferne an empfindlichen Stellen zu treffen.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTAwWDI5Mw==/z/CUwAAOSwyQtVt82l/$_1.JPG)
Dieses Design ist von dem Troll am Schwarzen Tor inspiriert, welcher ja momentan als Held in der Mod integriert ist. Ich spreche mich allerdings im selben Atemzug für die Streichung von Mollok aus:
Mordor besitzt momentan genug Massenvernichter-Helden: Hexenkönig, Ring-Sauron, Gorthaur (besonders die Werwolf-Form), in gewisser Weise auch Shagrat und Kankra und hat dazu zusätzlich noch die normalen Trolle.
Mollok ist soweit ich weiß eine Tabletop-Erfindung und wird sowieso fast nie gebaut, da er sich auch nicht wirklich lohnt.
Die Morannon-ausrüstung ist die Weiterentwicklung des Schwert-Upgrades und besitzt erhöhte Rüstung gegen Helden und Einzeleinheiten und kann entwickelt werden, wenn ein normaler Vorposten errichtet wurde.
Auch hier gilt "form follows function": Hier sind besonders die Unterarme gut geschützt, aber auch der Bauch.
Da der Schwert-Troll die am wenigsten gewählte Option ist, erhält der Troll zusätzlich die Fähigkeit Herausfordern mit der er ein einzelnes Ziel lähmen oder (wenn das zu mächtig ist) zumindest verlangsamen kann.
Dies ist ebenfalls von der Szene mit Aragorn am Schwarzen Tor inspiriert. Bei 4:18 sieht man wie Aragorn kurz innehält, als der Troll ihn von hinten anbrüllt und sich daraufhin diesem zuwendet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17_ImViPryQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17_ImViPryQ)
Ich weiß natürlich, dass PJ ursprünglich vorhatte dort einen AragornvsSauron-Kampf einzubauen, aber die Szene eignet sich perfekt für meine Zwecke :P
Der Schwert-Troll eignet sich also ideal um Helden herauszupicken oder zumindest um dabei zu unterstützen und wird dann hoffentlich auch häufiger gewählt.
Ich hoffe das Konzept löst die Probleme des Troll-Gameplays und sorgt für noch mehr zusätzliche optische Vielfalt in den Reihen Mordors.
Ich stelle mir das Ganze spielerisch recht interessant vor und würde mich über zahlreiches, gerne auch kritisches, Feedback freuen.
Mit freundlichem Gruß
Isildurs Fluch
I´m sorry for letting you wait one week, but now I finally have time to tranbslate this suggestion into English and thus bringing it back to it´s roots.
I´m quite unsure if I can count the German and the English votes together. If it´s not allowed, please forgive me:
Suggestion improvement and visualisation of the troll-upgrades:
"What is this new devilry?"
This idea is originally from Azog the Defiler, who allowed me to modificate, specificate and translate it. After some discussion in the German section I decided to translate it back to reach out to more people...
At first: This suggestion is first and foremost a graphical suggestion. The changes in the troll-gameplay should be marginal, but the small things do matter aswell. ;)
The trolls and their upgrade-system are for me one of the most interesting and atmospheric concepts in the Mordor-game, but in my oppinion they get a raw deal at the moment. Of course this has reasons:
1. Trolls are single units and those are always somehow difficult to play or to keep alive. On the other hand they are quite easy to counter, because they have r weaknesses: Archers, Spears and Heroes with high single-target damage (for example Aragorn or Faramir (bow)).
Furthermore a troll always attract attention and can be picked out quit easily.
Therefore the player very often decides that it´s not worth the time or ressources to buy expensive upgrades.
This weakens the gameplay and drifts to the brainless orc-spam, which should be avoided in my oppinion.
2. The system is very laborious and micro-intense: First you need Saurons influence, then every troll needs an armour and finally you can choose a weapon, which takes a lot of time and micro...
Originally I planned to ease the system by integrarting the armour-upgrade into the weapon-upgrade, but in the German section I got a lot oh head wind due to the lack of freedom to combinate different armour and weapon.
At least the armour-upgrade will make sense now, because you can get different choices and it shouldn´t be to op, because those alternatives are very limitted.
3. Even with upgrades trolls are at the moment kind of dyfunctional:
As mass-slayers they are to weak against spears, as siege to weak against arrows and as hero-killer to weak against certain heroes.
I don´t think they don´t work at all, but it could be a little better.
The intention is neither to strengthen nor to weaken the trolls, but simply to allow deeper specialisation and variety, without changing everything. ;)
The normal armour-upgrade changes it´s name:
Improvisational armour: The armour is only a bit weaker as at the moment, but also a bit cheaper just to balance the alternatives.
Most of the change at this point is graphically: It should look somehow improvised only containing out of a helmet and some armour-pieces, not a full fitting armour as at the moment. If possible they could use random modells so the trolls don´t look like clones. The siege-trolls at Minas Tirith are a good orientation:
(http://razorsedgecollectibles.com/images/9453.jpg)
The plan is to unlock specialised armour-alternatives depending on your choice of an outpost, which allow you to eliminate one option to counter your trolls. Trolls who already got an armour are let out to make things simple. The domain-armour is a bit more expensive, than the improvised one and doesn´t provide more protection against the other kinds of damage, but taking out one counter option should be worth the extra ressources.
The system should be explained either in the troll-cage or at the armour-palantir of the trolls, so the player knows the different options, before he decides which outpost he will build. This slot could be named Armour of the domains.
But now let´s get specific:
(https://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/5/5f/Attack_Troll.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090415184706)
The Morgul-armour strengthens the troll against archers, and therfore his only weaknisses are now spears and certain heroes. In case of the hammer-troll it forces the opponent out of his fortress to kill those nasty trolls.
The presented style of armour fits quite nicely:
The open and wide helmet catches arrows from different directions and those big spikes help aswell. The big shoulder-plates also make sense against arrows from above.
It also fits into canon, because Minas Morgul prepared a long time for the siege of Minas Tirith and of course they knew that those different rings are perfect for archers.
(http://www.thelandofshadow.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Trolls1.jpg)
The armour strengthens the troll against spears and pikes. Thus the player can send in the trolls into big crowds of enimies without fearing there might be some spears in it and therfore losing the troll instantly. This is of course very important for club-trolls.
Again the armour fits somehow, because it primarilly covers face and belly and so you would have some difficulties to find spots for your spear to hurt him.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NTAwWDI5Mw==/z/CUwAAOSwyQtVt82l/$_1.JPG)
This design is inspired by the troll at the Black Gate, who is at the moment a hero in the mod. But I am in favor of striking out Mollok for Mordor has a lot of heroes and enough mass-slayers: Witch-king, Ring-Sauron, Gorthaur (especially as a werewolf), in a way Shagrat and Shelob and of course the normal trolls.
One could argue, that all of them, besides Sauron and the witch-king are no real mass-slayers and those are difficult to get early, but this is the case for most mass-slayers as Gandalf and Saruman and Mordor doesn´t need those as much as other factions, because they normally have the higher numbers.
Besides that Mollok is not canon (tabletop-interpretation) and is already seen very seldom.
This also would make Bill, Tom and Bert more unique as the only troll-hero in the mod of course besides the self-created heroes.
The Morannon-armour is against heroes and units with high single-target damage (Beorniner) and can be used if the player gets a normal outpost.
Again the motto is "form follows function": The forearms are well armoured and the lower belly aswell. This of course makes a lot sense to combine with the sword-upgrade.
The sword-troll isn´t seen very often seen at the moment. To change this, I would give him an additional abbility:
Duelling: The troll can paralyse or slow down (if paralysing is to powerfull) a target.
This is also inspired by the scene at the Black Gate: At 4:18 syou can see Aragorn pausing for a moment as he hears the troll behind him roaring:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17_ImViPryQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17_ImViPryQ)
Of course I know that PJ originally wanted to make a Aragorn vs Sauron fight, but it fits very nicely in my concept... :P
With this the sword-troll especially when upgraded with Morannon-armour should be a usefull tool against heroes, because Mordor is missing a real Hero-killer if I have it right in the head.
I hope this concepts will be seen as an improvement for the troll-gam,eplay and the general atmosphere of the Mordor-faction, but I am very open for usefull critique...
Yours sincerely
Isildurs Bane
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