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[en] Edain Mod => [Edain] Suggestions => [Edain] Rohan Suggestions => Thema gestartet von: Elite KryPtik am 12. Jan 2016, 22:50

Titel: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 12. Jan 2016, 22:50

EDIT: Here is a list of all the ideas presented to help Rohans late game thus far in this thread. If any new ideas are posted I will add them to the list. Original post in its entirety untouched below for those who want to read the whole thread.

My Ideas: Firstly, to increase the cost of Royal Breeding and decrease the cost of Summon Galadhrim, to 6 and 3 respectively, and flip their spots in the spellbook, while also decreasing the cost of The 3 Hunters to 6 points to make sure the spellbook is balanced. Also, if the team thinks it would be better, perhaps the Royal Breeding power should be put on the right side of the spellbook and The 3 Hunters on left, so that people don't always go left for Ents. Now, the Royal Breeding power in this situation would be made much stronger, granting 50% health, armor, and 50% less trample revenge damage from pikes, and finally it would give 200% less trample deceleration. The idea here is that with this, Rohans cavalry could do some epic charges and trample for much longer periods of time, while taking less damage, to help them survive long enough to actually do some damage against the late game pike spam of Isengard, Dwarves and Gondor. Now obviously, none of these stats are final, and the team has the last word.

My second idea is that since the heroes of Rohan are likely riding Mearas Horses, they should have better natural speed, trample damage and less trample deceleration than any other mounted hero in the game, besides Gandalf. Therefore I would propose to increase their trample damage by at least 50%, and their trample deceleration should be much slower, and speed much higher. Mearas are the most incredible horses in Middle Earth, and I feel this is not accurately represented at the moment.

Finally, I had a minor idea to add on to Hamans idea of an economy upgrade, to give Rohan a new building for economy upgrades and let them unlock a couple of different upgrades, 1 for Flour Mills 1 for Stud Farms.

Hamans Ideas: His first idea was to buff Rohans economy by adding economy upgrades to the fortress after Théoden is cured, and allowing Rohan to get upgrade discounts if they buy more armories. His next idea was to increase the strength of Spear Throwers against heavy units such as Veterans and Tower Guards. Thirdly, he proposed that my idea for Royal Breeding should be made a standard upgrade at the stables or armory, unlocked after Théoden is cured, and to replace the 3 point Royal Breeding power with something else. Finally, he proposed that Rohan should get some defensive upgrades late game, such as Fire Arrows for their towers.

Django suggested that the strength of Rohirrim Archers against pikes should be increased, but that their weakness to archers should also be increased.

Elendils Cousin and Mandos both suggested to make the Galadhrim Summon permanent, except for Haldir.

Morwereth suggested to increase Eomers Strength late game, and redo his abilities to either be more Unit Supporter of Mass Slayer oriented, instead of a mix of the 2.

Draco100000 suggested adding some new late game units, either heavy infantry or cavalry, to help Rohans late game from gaining map control. He also suggested that some kind of upgraded discount should be added, but wasn't specific about it.

ORIGINAL POST BELOW

OK, so we all know that Rohan late game is still quite weak. We also know that the team has rejected adding more Infantry or Cavalry to Rohan's roster. So what then does that leave us with? Spellbook Powers.

Right now, the Galadhrim summon is quite weak. I would personally call it maybe a 4 and a half point power. So this is my idea: Swap Galadhrim and Royal Breeding powers in costs. Make the Galadhrim summon 2 units of Galadhrim and Haldir, and cost 3 points, and make Royal Breeding cost 6 points. To balance this the 3 hunters should be brought down from 7 to 6 points as well.

Now, for my actual idea. Let me quote the book on this one: "Gandalf: And then I was glad, for in the Riddermark of Rohan the Rohirrim, the Horse-lords, dwell, and there are no horses like those that are bred in that great vale between the Misty Mountains and the White".

Now in addition, A passage about the Mearas from the LOTR Wiki: "The Mearas were a breed of wild horses in the north of Middle-earth. They surpass normal horses in intelligence, speed and strength. According to lore, the ancestors of the Mearas were brought from the West by Béma. They were descended from Felaróf, who was tamed by the first King of Rohan, Eorl. The descendants of Felaróf would later become the mounts of the King of Rohan, and would bear no one except for the Kings of the Mark and their sons"

Now, if this is not proof beyond any shadow of a doubt that the Horses of the Rohirrim are simply beyond any others in Middle Earth, I don't know what is. So my proposal is thus: Make Royal Breeding an extremely strong power, much stronger than it currently is. At level 3 any cavalry of Rohan gain +50% health and armor, +50% resistance to pikes, and -200% trample deceleration, letting them trample much longer than any other cavalry in the game. This would symbolize the incredible nature of the Mearas horses quite well.

Now, I realize that technically Mearas are only ridden by the Royal House of Rohan, however; this is why I quoted Gandalf. He states that even the horses belonging to the peasants of Rohan are better than those elsewhere in Middle Earth. Additionally, you would still have to get cavalry to level 3 for the ability to take effect, so you would not just immediately become extremely strong right out of the gate. Every other faction in the game has some form of really strong unit for late game, EXCEPT for Rohan. This would fill the gap without requiring any new units.

Finally, since the Mearas are meant to be the most incredible horses in all of Middle Earth, I think that both the Heroes of Rohan and Royal Guard should have more speed, trample damage and less trample deceleration than any other mounted hero/hero battalion in the game, even Imrahil. The only other mounted hero with similar speed and strength to Rohans heroes should be Gandalf, due to Shadowfax being a Mearas. That is the last idea that I can come up with to perhaps improve Rohans late game, without adding new units to the game.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 13. Jan 2016, 00:49

I won't comment too much on your idea other than saying that initially I don't like it that much. A passive buff of that strength will force your opponent to literally build only pikes and upgrade them with forged blades. Cavalry is, by design, the strongest unic type; it counters two other basic unit types and can outrun its counter. If they are allowed to permanently (since its a passive buff) even fight their counter and roflstomp everything else it can get out of hand pretty fast. So yeah, initially I'd say no to that idea.

I do agree with your comment about Haldir though. I never get that spell until the very end because those archers are just not doing enough. So, why not buff it instead? Initially, the Galadhrim were supposed to stay on the field without a timer. It got changed during the beta though, and I don't remember why. Reverting that change would be a nice buff imo. It would give Rohan some elite archers (and temporary hero support, since Haldir would keep his timer obviously) without being anywhere close to making Rohan an archer faction, because it's still only two batallions and the cooldown is still quite substantial.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 13. Jan 2016, 01:14

The thing is, everybody always just spams pikes against Rohan already anyways, because most pikes can beat Peasants once upgraded. So that really wouldn't be changing at all.

EDIT: Additionally, did not the team design Rohan to be a cavalry faction? I don't understand if that was the intent why Rohan cavalry are so weak by nature. Every other faction has something incredibly strong they can employ:
Isengard gets Shieldbearers and Captains.
Gondor gets Tower Guards.
Dwarves get Veterans, which can easily make themselves immune to trample, and, due to a bug, are immune to trample by default right now.
Lothlorien gets Beornings and Galadhrim, who can survive trample fairly well on elven wood and defensive stance, or can completely negate it with Minstrels.
Mordor gets hordes of free units, an incredibly strong debuff from Nazgul, a whole bunch of free permasummons, and finally 2(3 if u can black riders) heroic units.

Rohan is currently the only faction who does not have something extremely powerful for late game. Even Royal Guard can only trample a single unit of free orcs before getting stuck! It seems to me to be kind of counterproductive to design Rohan as a cavalry faction and give everybody very strong, cheap pike units.

Finally, obviously these stats don't have to be final or anything. I'm just proposing that the power be strengthened. There are other solutions to Rohan's late game issues, but they have all been rejected so far. At least this would require minimal effort to implement and test out, and be balanced accordingly. I'm not saying that they should completely murder pikes, but just that they gain more resistance to them, and more deceleration just to give Rohan a fighting chance late game.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: DrHouse93 am 13. Jan 2016, 02:06

I agree that Rohan's late game is weak compared to other factions, and I also agree that Rohan's heavy units should focus on cavalry, rather than infantry. The problem in a Rohirrim charge is that most of the time, when crushing against fully upgraded pikes, half of the batallion already dies. The other half will follow it soon in the incoming melee fight. This is because of the ridicolous amount of damage pikes can do on cavalry, which is good for other factions or in the early game, but it becomes bad in different cases, such as this

I once read that physically speaking, to stop a cavalry charge like that at Minas Tirith, the Orcs would have need atleast three rows of pikes long atleast 3 meters: The first line would have to lean their pikes at 45°, holding them by both their strength and by implanting them on the ground, while the two following lines would have to lean their pikes at 60°

Of course, I'm not asking to implement such an hard concept ingame, but I still find ridiculous that an army of Rohirrim fully armed and buffed by their powerful heroes are forced to miserably die against the Tower Guards or the "Phalanx Uruk-hai". My proposals are therefore three:

1. An improvement to the Heavy Armor upgrade, which applies to both cavarly and infantry (for those who prefer to use that): any unit of Rohan with this upgrade is 40% less vulnerable to its counter. Cavarly it's also slowed down more slowly

2. An improvement of Theoden's leadership, with the same effects

3. As Kryptic proposed, an improvement of the "Royal Bred Horses" power, which could be named "A red day, a sword day" (can't think at a different name, sorry xD), but the effects are the ones above mentioned

Why this stat boost? Because Rohan's infantry is already weaker than the elite infantry of other factions, while the Rohirrim die too easily against fully armed pikes. By granting them this improvement, you could avoid Rohan's units to die so easily against their natural counters (Pikes for Cavalry and Cavalry for Infantry) and therefore giving Rohan a chance to actually inflict some damage to powerful Late Game factions, like Isengard, the Dwarves and Gondor, too, while not turning the Rohirrim invincible, since the buff only applies against the units' counters

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 13. Jan 2016, 02:18

That seems like a fair proposal to me. You hit the nail on the head, the rate at which Rohan's units get slaughtered late game, combined with their weak economy(Rohan has easily worst eco in the game) means they just can't succeed late game. Of course, they do have a really strong early game, but many people(myself included) don't like getting map control and rushing a ram spam to win. I want to get epic cavalry charges late game, I want Théoden to hit level 10 and get Glorious Charge, but if I wait to get these late game engagements then I basically forfeit the game.
It sucks :(

So lets get this discussion going, lets make Rohan's late game better. Call to action, let the ideas flow forth!

Also, minor thing, but if Royal Breeding is to be renamed, I suggest "Muster the Rohirrim!"

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 13. Jan 2016, 08:21

Honestly, wanted to post on this thread long time before now, but this topic really made my head spin  [uglybunti]

There is so much to go over when it comes to Rohan Balance.  The amount of factors that affect it really made this a hard topic to talk about.  But I agree with most of the concerns of Rohan's late game, so I'll try my best to answer the question at stake here.  What exactly is wrong with Rohan's late game, and how can it be fixed?  Grab some popcorn.

I think that everyone can agree that early game is fine for Rohan, so I won't cover it.

So here are the major factors that effect the majority of Rohan's late game.

1.  Economy:  I think that Kry is being a little harsh when saying Rohan easily has the worst economy, I would say Lothlorien is pretty close.  But looking past that, it is hard to make money late game as Rohan.  Most likely you have already uncorrupted Theoden at this point, and because of that, you really only have the normal game mechanics to rely on to make money.  Your only option is to get Eomer to level, and kill a lot of enemies because people near him get resources everytime they get a kill.  The problem is by late game it is hard to kill enemies because this is where people start to get their really strong armies together.  Another major factor to this is that Rohan can't reduce the cost of their upgrades, while every other faction can.  This means that Rohan is most likely paying the most for their upgrades, besides maybe Lothlorien.  And because of the lack of money you are getting, you can't upgrade your troops quickly. 

Well first off, I recommend letting Rohan reduce the cost of their upgrades.  The best way to do this would be to make is so it is based of the amount of Armouries (-15% for 2 Armouries, -30% for 3 Armouries).  And to make is a bit more appealing to get more then 1 Armoury, maybe make it also reduce the cost of siege by the same amount.  But our problems don't stop there. 

From what I know, Rohan's economy in lore is mainly based off Farming.  I think that Rohan should get some boost to how much money farms make.  I always found it kind a weird that Gondor get the Grand Harvest, yet Rohan doesn't.  Gondor's economy is really based of trading and crafting materials.  It never made sense to me why the Gondor Marketplace could effect farming because of this. 

So I would recommend giving Rohan the Grand Harvest instead of Gondor.  Make it purchasable at the Citadel, but only when Theoden is Free from Corruption.  This would make sense because when he is Corrupted, he would be more focused on making money for himself, which Cruel Taxes shows very well.  But when free, Theoden think about his people more then himself.  Take this line from the movies.  "Crops will be re sowed.  Homes rebuilt."  I really hope people like this idea.

Well thats the economy :P  Next.

2.  Pikes:  oh boy. Argueably the the biggest problem with Rohan's late game is how they handle pikes.  I am glad that some changes have been made to make it easier for Rohan, but the problem is still a big one.  The problem here is that because Rohan is a cavalry based faction, which have problems with pikes, it makes Rohan very hard to play if your opponent spams pikes.  Your only counters to pikes, being peasants and Horse Archers, are too weak late game and can't kill fully upgraded pikes armies respectively. 

So what do you do when your opponent starts spamming ugraded elite pikes?  Their really isn't much you can do unfortunately. :(  While Royal Guard can kill a lone pikemen group because of their new ability, this does not help them at all against larger groups of pikes because they slow down too fast.  They should have lower deceleration then normal riders. 
The really only option against Large amounts of pikes is Horse Archers, but they can't take down an entire army of pikes, unfortunately.

So how can this be fixed?  Sadly this problem is too big for a "just do this" type of answer.  The amount of factors that have an effect on it are huge.  Hopefully other benefits to Rohan, such as a better economy and stronger spear throwers, might help ease this problem. 

I kinda think that Royal Bred Horses should be a passive that Rohan gets automatically, and what should replace it would make specifically Rohan's heroes better while mounted.  Because I don't agree on making armies stronger with a passive Spellbook power is a good idea. 

And the Galadhrim Summon could be stronger too.  Make those elves upgraded and it would be much better.

There is more I want to talk about, but hopefully I've gotten the main points across.  (In other words, I need sleep and will continue tomorrow ;) )

Great to see some concern in this topic.  Keep it up.   ;)

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Fine am 13. Jan 2016, 09:06

The problem with Rohan and pikes is well-known.
If you enable the rohirric cavalry to deal with or even easily defeat pikes, they cannot be countered anymore.
If Rohan cannot counter pikes effectively, their cavalry becomes useless.
So how do we find a good middle ground? Honestly, I do not think there is a perfect solution. If any cavarly unit is made stronger or more effective against pikes, it needs a new counter.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: ringbearer am 13. Jan 2016, 10:51

Concerning Rohan's economy and Hamanathnath's proposal. I wouldn't go for price reduction of upgrades by building armouries. I've always liked BFME1 balance concerning rohans upgrades. In BFME1 Rohan doesn't have price reduction on upgrades like Isen or Gondor. But price of their upgrades were lower by default. I think it's worth implementing something similar.

 I suggest making it like this: you build armoury, but at first you can research only banner carrier for 400. After this you are able to research heavy armour and forged blades ( for 600 or 800). Giving these upgrades to your troops would cost you for Heavy armour and Forged blades 210 and Banner for 150. Yeah , these numbers are a matter of balance but still idea is pretty solid, it worked in BFME1.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: -DJANGO- am 13. Jan 2016, 11:24

I think that in BFME1 the upgrade costs were only lower be default for the peasants, which were not so usefull as in Edain 4.X.
I agree with Rohan getting the Grand Harvest Upgrade for the economy. But though I think that Eomers ability is still usefull in LG.
I don't like the idea of making Rohan stronger in LG "because it just should". A diverse mix of Westfold units peasants and all kinds of Cav + leveled Heros is in my opinion already really strong and hard to beat.

But I agree that Rohans counter against Pikes should be stronger than "just" an elite unit ability. I really liked the idea how in BFME1 Rohirrim-Archers did a lot of damage against pikes! Thus I believe that the Rohirrim-Archers should be really strong against pikes. Without firearrows strong against pikes without heavy amor. With firearrows really strong against pikes with heavy amor. As thei cost and cp-cost is quite high, i think that they can fit in that role of "pike-counter". Concerning the balance they should be extremely vulnerable against enemy-archers and melee fight.
=> Improving this unit, would give Rohan an alternative counter against Pikes. And the unit would be worth their 120 CP and 700 Res (without reduction?).

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Chiska am 13. Jan 2016, 18:09

Django's idea sounds like the most logical solution to me. Mounted Archers always were pretty useless but I suppose Rohan can be an exception because of their renowned cavalry reputation.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 13. Jan 2016, 18:37

I completely disagree that Horse Archers are useless now. In fact, they are argueably the only reason why Rohan has any sort of chance late game, besides Glorious Charge.

With that said, I do agree they should be the unit that is strong against Pikes.  And they are decently strong right now.  The problem is that most the factions have something that can Horse Archers aren't effective on, such as Uruk ShieldBearers, Dwarven Veterans, and Tower Guards. 

This is where I think Spear Throwers should come in.  I talked about this more in depth in the Rohan Balance Discussion thread, so go check that out for more depth.  I basically want Spear Throwers to be the unit that is strong against the super Heavily Armored units.  I think that, along with my other suggestions for the Spear Throwers, Rohan will have less trouble with the Heavily Armored units, and well as making peasants more useful late game.
 
Concerning upgrades, I don't think that Rohan should have lower priced upgrades immediately.  I just don't see a reason in that.  Adding the price reduction to a Armoury would make more sense, because the more Armouries you have, the more readily available the Upgrades should be.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 13. Jan 2016, 20:11

Just had a one hour 3v3 on Nurn. Rohan + Rohan + Dwarves against Mordor + Isengard + Rohan.
Our Dwarves was new- he didn't know how to play and stayed in his base the whole game- but we managed to defeat Isengard pretty quickly. From that point it was 2v2: 2xRohan against Mordor and Rohan. We controlled the whole map minus their camps but we couldn't win. They started to spam pikes and they slowly regained map control. At the end the Mordor even 1v2'd our two armies. I've never felt that powerless.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 13. Jan 2016, 20:12

Zitat

1.  Economy:  I think that Kry is being a little harsh when saying Rohan easily has the worst economy, I would say Lothlorien is pretty close.  But looking past that, it is hard to make money late game as Rohan.  Most likely you have already uncorrupted Theoden at this point, and because of that, you really only have the normal game mechanics to rely on to make money.  Your only option is to get Eomer to level, and kill a lot of enemies because people near him get resources everytime they get a kill.  The problem is by late game it is hard to kill enemies because this is where people start to get their really strong armies together.  Another major factor to this is that Rohan can't reduce the cost of their upgrades, while every other faction can.  This means that Rohan is most likely paying the most for their upgrades, besides maybe Lothlorien.  And because of the lack of money you are getting, you can't upgrade your troops quickly. 

Well first off, I recommend letting Rohan reduce the cost of their upgrades.  The best way to do this would be to make is so it is based of the amount of Armouries (-15% for 2 Armouries, -30% for 3 Armouries).  And to make is a bit more appealing to get more then 1 Armoury, maybe make it also reduce the cost of siege by the same amount.  But our problems don't stop there. 

From what I know, Rohan's economy in lore is mainly based off Farming.  I think that Rohan should get some boost to how much money farms make.  I always found it kind a weird that Gondor get the Grand Harvest, yet Rohan doesn't.  Gondor's economy is really based of trading and crafting materials.  It never made sense to me why the Gondor Marketplace could effect farming because of this. 

So I would recommend giving Rohan the Grand Harvest instead of Gondor.  Make it purchasable at the Citadel, but only when Theoden is Free from Corruption.  This would make sense because when he is Corrupted, he would be more focused on making money for himself, which Cruel Taxes shows very well.  But when free, Theoden think about his people more then himself.  Take this line from the movies.  "Crops will be re sowed.  Homes rebuilt."  I really hope people like this idea.

Rohan economy is definitely worse than Lorien. Lorien can get Wine Cellers and their upgrades on outposts, and as well they have many different discounts to take into account, including a good upgrade discount. That said, I definitely agree with giving Rohan an upgrade discount as well as the Grand Harvest, this would significantly help Rohans economy. I also have an idea to add on to this, instead of making Grand Harvest purchasable at the citadel, why not move it to the armory, or even better, give Rohan a new building like a market, and add another economy upgrade as well? My idea would be "Animal Husbandry" to increase the income of stud farms. Additionally, since Rohans farms are flour mills, the Grand Harvest should have a different name, perhaps "Windmill Efficiency"?

Zitat

Well thats the economy :P  Next.

2.  Pikes:  oh boy. Argueably the the biggest problem with Rohan's late game is how they handle pikes.  I am glad that some changes have been made to make it easier for Rohan, but the problem is still a big one.  The problem here is that because Rohan is a cavalry based faction, which have problems with pikes, it makes Rohan very hard to play if your opponent spams pikes.  Your only counters to pikes, being peasants and Horse Archers, are too weak late game and can't kill fully upgraded pikes armies respectively. 

So what do you do when your opponent starts spamming ugraded elite pikes?  Their really isn't much you can do unfortunately. :(  While Royal Guard can kill a lone pikemen group because of their new ability, this does not help them at all against larger groups of pikes because they slow down too fast.  They should have lower deceleration then normal riders. 
The really only option against Large amounts of pikes is Horse Archers, but they can't take down an entire army of pikes, unfortunately.

So how can this be fixed?  Sadly this problem is too big for a "just do this" type of answer.  The amount of factors that have an effect on it are huge.  Hopefully other benefits to Rohan, such as a better economy and stronger spear throwers, might help ease this problem.

Firstly, pikes ARE the biggest problem late game, not arguably. I do not agree that it isn't simple to fix. The other factions all have something that has no "counter" late game, and making Rohans cavalry stronger would not be unfair, quite the contrary, it would give Rohan something STRONG late game, just like ALL the other factions have.

Zitat

I kinda think that Royal Bred Horses should be a passive that Rohan gets automatically, and what should replace it would make specifically Rohan's heroes better while mounted.  Because I don't agree on making armies stronger with a passive Spellbook power is a good idea. 

I don't see how this could work, in fact it really makes no sense at all. Why give entire armies a passive buff when they get to level 3 automatically? If anything the heroes should be passively strengthened right now, and the army upgrade should be a spellbook power. Armies can accomplish much, much more than heroes can.

Zitat

And the Galadhrim Summon could be stronger too.  Make those elves upgraded and it would be much better.

Agree.

Zitat

The problem with Rohan and pikes is well-known.
If you enable the rohirric cavalry to deal with or even easily defeat pikes, they cannot be countered anymore.
If Rohan cannot counter pikes effectively, their cavalry becomes useless.
So how do we find a good middle ground? Honestly, I do not think there is a perfect solution. If any cavarly unit is made stronger or more effective against pikes, it needs a new counter.

As I said above, disagree. All other factions have something OP or without a clear counter late game, EXCEPT Rohan. It seems to me that everybody thinks that if Rohans cavalry were just a little stronger that they would be unkillable. This is not the case. All it would really do is give Rohan a fighting chance at killing armies of Isengard, Gondor Tower Guards, and Dwarves. Mordor can very quickly and easily replenish any army killed by Rohan, and Lorien Archers can wreck armies of Rohan before they can even get close to them with their archer spam. Finally, if the cavalry were made stronger, it would actually make Glorious Charge the game ending super-ability that it is SUPPOSED to be. It is extremely difficult and dangerous to try and get Theoden to level 10, people instantly target all of their heroes on him the second they see him in combat, and he costs 2800(!!) to revive. Rohan, as stated above, has a weak economy, which makes it real rough if Theoden dies while uncorrupted. Now, I think the price is justified considering what he can do, but considering how freaking long it takes to level Theoden to level 10 Glorious Charge should be better, on par with Army of the Dead in its destructive capabilities.

Zitat

Concerning Rohan's economy and Hamanathnath's proposal. I wouldn't go for price reduction of upgrades by building armouries. I've always liked BFME1 balance concerning rohans upgrades. In BFME1 Rohan doesn't have price reduction on upgrades like Isen or Gondor. But price of their upgrades were lower by default. I think it's worth implementing something similar.

 I suggest making it like this: you build armoury, but at first you can research only banner carrier for 400. After this you are able to research heavy armour and forged blades ( for 600 or 800). Giving these upgrades to your troops would cost you for Heavy armour and Forged blades 210 and Banner for 150. Yeah , these numbers are a matter of balance but still idea is pretty solid, it worked in BFME1.

I just went in game and checked, and the upgrades per unit were still quite expensive for Rohan. Most of the discounts for different factions have been added as new features by the team, and I don't see an issue with giving Rohan an upgrade discount on their armory. I very often end up getting 2 armories to besiege people with rams, so giving the discount with multiple armories would be very useful and fair I think.

Zitat

I think that in BFME1 the upgrade costs were only lower be default for the peasants, which were not so usefull as in Edain 4.X.
I agree with Rohan getting the Grand Harvest Upgrade for the economy. But though I think that Eomers ability is still usefull in LG.
I don't like the idea of making Rohan stronger in LG "because it just should". A diverse mix of Westfold units peasants and all kinds of Cav + leveled Heros is in my opinion already really strong and hard to beat.

Rohan loses late game. Its that simple. I cannot count how many times I have had the exact unit composition you listed just now, and have gotten crushed utterly by Isengard, Gondor and Dwarves. Haman, Sawman, Draco100000, Woppader, DarkRadek and myself, along with others I play with less often, have all played many hundreds of games together, and every single time Rohan does not defeat their enemy early game, they lose. Late game, any army trumps theirs. The ONLY Factions that Rohan can sometimes keep at bay are Mordor(shitty pikes) Lorien(again, shitty pikes) and Rohan mirrors. Even then, the economy of Mordor and Lorien is always better, so they will win in the long run, especially looking at Mordors Call the Horde! ability, and Loriens extremely strong defense combined with Rohans awful siege.

Zitat

But I agree that Rohans counter against Pikes should be stronger than "just" an elite unit ability. I really liked the idea how in BFME1 Rohirrim-Archers did a lot of damage against pikes! Thus I believe that the Rohirrim-Archers should be really strong against pikes. Without firearrows strong against pikes without heavy amor. With firearrows really strong against pikes with heavy amor. As thei cost and cp-cost is quite high, i think that they can fit in that role of "pike-counter". Concerning the balance they should be extremely vulnerable against enemy-archers and melee fight.
=> Improving this unit, would give Rohan an alternative counter against Pikes. And the unit would be worth their 120 CP and 700 Res (without reduction?).

You just listed the Rohirrim Archers current strengths. However, as you said they are weak to archers, which makes them useless. All you need are a couple crossbowmen(Isengard), Rangers(Gondor) or any ranged unit(Dwarves) stuck in the middle of your pike army and boom Rohirrim Archers are suddenly useless. No joke, I have seen entire armies, 10 battalions strong, of Rohirrim Archers fall to 2 fully upgraded uruk crossbows with shieldbearers, and the same happen against 3 Gondor Rangers. In addition, the attack animations of the mounted archers are really jumpy, sometimes they don't want to shoot or move properly. I think the team should take a look at this. Finally, I'm not sure if its possible or not, but shouldn't they be able to attack while moving? Because right now they just sit there and shoot, and quickly get massacred by enemy arrows. In any case, Rohirrim Archers are still never going to be able to kill fully upgraded Isengard or Dwarf Pikes, and the Tower Guard formtion makes them pretty much unkillable unless engaged in melee. The melee cavalry of Rohan NEED a buff, either that or a new unit of infantry or heavy cavalry needs to be added.

EDIT

Zitat

I completely disagree that Horse Archers are useless now. In fact, they are argueably the only reason why Rohan has any sort of chance late game, besides Glorious Charge.

Yes, they are indeed Rohans only chance late game, but its still not enough.

Zitat

With that said, I do agree they should be the unit that is strong against Pikes.  And they are decently strong right now.  The problem is that most the factions have something that can Horse Archers aren't effective on, such as Uruk ShieldBearers, Dwarven Veterans, and Tower Guards. 

You hit the nail on the head. Even if they are made stronger against pikes its still not going to be enough. Even if it was, do you realize how boring it would be to have to spam a single unit late game? Even Gondor can add in some rangers and heroic units late game. If this were the case, then the ONLY unit you could train to have a chance would be mounted archers. That would just be boring and stupid.

Zitat

This is where I think Spear Throwers should come in.  I talked about this more in depth in the Rohan Balance Discussion thread, so go check that out for more depth.  I basically want Spear Throwers to be the unit that is strong against the super Heavily Armored units.  I think that, along with my other suggestions for the Spear Throwers, Rohan will have less trouble with the Heavily Armored units, and well as making peasants more useful late game.

OK, lets really think about this for a second. So say Spear Throwers were made less expensive in resources and CP, and in addition could break heavily armored units and receive everything you want them to. What then would be the case? 1 of 2 things would happen.
Either you could supplement your cavalry force with a slow moving infantry force, and have to retreat behind them for every single engagement, therefore completely negating the whole idea that Rohan is a cavalry faction.
Or you would buy an army of peasants to hold the line for you while your spear throwers did the real damage. Again, what's the point of ever making a stables at all if your only chance late game is spear throwers? It simply doesn't work. The issue here is cavalry.

I think the best solution would be to make both a mounted and dismounted variant of Spear Throwers, to allow people to at least have a choice. At least then, if the melee Rohirrim are not buffed and still suck terribly, you can feel like you are playing Rohan by having mounted spear throwers that can use Glorious Charge. Personally, I would much rather just see spear throwers removed entirely, they are really unnecessary. It would be better to increase the strength of Rohans melee cavalry.
 

Zitat

Concerning upgrades, I don't think that Rohan should have lower priced upgrades immediately.  I just don't see a reason in that.  Adding the price reduction to a Armoury would make more sense, because the more Armouries you have, the more readily available the Upgrades should be.

Agree.

Zitat

Just had a one hour 3v3 on Nurn. Rohan + Rohan + Dwarves against Mordor + Isengard + Rohan.
Our Dwarves was new- he didn't know how to play and stayed in his base the whole game- but we managed to defeat Isengard pretty quickly. From that point it was 2v2: 2xRohan against Mordor and Rohan. We controlled the whole map minus their camps but we couldn't win. They started to spam pikes and they slowly regained map control. At the end the Mordor even 1v2'd our two armies. I've never felt that powerless.

I feel your pain brother, I've been there many times. In that situation I would generally tend to just try and ignore the enemy armies and go straight for their base with my cavalry and last march of the ents, but that generally turns into a base trade. It sucks :(

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 13. Jan 2016, 20:45

I don't like where this is heading. There is a reason why Rohan is quite bad concerning their direct economy -Edain has its focus on the movie-Rohan and there it's a fairly poor country. Actually such a economy steroid (exactly the same way, also via the fortress!) was included in an earlier version and it was removed because it kind of gave Rohan the best economy of the good factions (except VLG-dwarves, but those were stronger than Isengard).
If I have a specific identity of a faction (in Rohan's case: no central government / decentralization, bad eco), I don't choose the way of just removing said weakness for the sake of buffing. That's some incredible poor dynamic, because it evens out differences.
{{{{Also simply from a logic perspective (and I am putting this in big brackets, because of that), good farming is mostly a matter of skill and equipment: I don't believe that Rohan's totally low-tech peasants are able to work with that much technical support. From a logic perspective this is actually a fairly huge point, btw.}}}}
I might have an idea though which I am going to present and which is more appropriate for Rohan.

---

Also I don't like this super-buffed cavalry for a number of reasons:
1. This spell would be absolutely mandatory. Such an incredible bonus for my cavalry is just nothing the other spells can compete with.
2. It would push the Galadhrim up to the same level of Druadan. Just from a lore perspective this is stupid, because these elves should be stronger, but both spells are also essentially the same: They summon 3 groups of archers and one hero. Again: It takes away variety. (With the two last points being a gameplay problem.)
3. I don't like this way of making cavalry totally getting out of control. It's simply not a great way of buffing a faction -basically it's a passive button you once (have to) purchase and after that all your cavalry basically makes the opponents cavalry worthless in comparison.
4. I have to agree totally with Fine: Cavalry needs a counter! Just making Rohan into this one-dimension cavalry cluster intensifies the problem, instead of solving it, because it makes them useless without, but possibly broken with a full fledged out army. (This alone perhaps won't, but than again: What have you gained instead of forcing every single opponets to spam pikes even more fiercely? I'd say nothing.)

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 13. Jan 2016, 21:09

In terms of the eco, Rohan is represented very differently in the movie from the book, and the team has always tried to find a balance between them. Simply from a gameplay perspective, without getting into why the economy upgrades would actually make sense from a lore perspective, it is not fair that every single other faction gets decent economy upgrades and multiple discounts, and Rohan gets 1 single discount on cavalry. It makes late game untenable, as many people have said.

Now, in terms of buffing cavalry. You are missing the point here man. People ALREADY spam nothing but pikes against Rohan. Most pikes can defeat peasants, a sword unit, late game when fully upgraded. So what are the fixes to this problem?
A: Add some heavy infantry, which has already been refused and in addition defeats the purpose of Rohan being a cavalry faction,
or B: Make Rohan cavalry somewhat stronger, so that they could at least stand a fighting chance against pikes in late game. This makes sense from a lore perspective, and it would NOT be overpowered, especially against factions like Isengard and Gondor. The entire purpose of 4.0 is to try and find balance in the mod, and right now Rohans lack of late game is a glaring issue that requires resolution. Its simply not fair that every single other faction in the game, except for Rohan, gets really strong units late game. I will again bring up the fact that all factions have units that beat their counters:
Isengard units with captains and shieldbearers easily beat their counters, archers can win in melee!
Gondor Tower Guards easily beat their counters, swordsmen, in melee, and take very little damage from archers.
Dwarven Veterans effectively have no counter since they can make themselves immune to trample, are so tanky in general, and have no limit to their numbers.
Lorien Galadhrim are great in melee combat and can survive trampling quite well, even making themselves immune to it with Minstrels. Beornings need no detailing, everybody knows how OP they are.
Mordor gets hordes of free units, 3 free summons, 3 different heroic battalions, and insane debuffs for the enemy on top of buffs for their own troops. To top it all off, they can replenish to a full army in seconds with Call the Horde! and have units that cost 0 CP.

So once again, why is Rohan the ONLY faction who is "not allowed" to have anything strong late game? Its ridiculous! Once Théoden was cured and had defeated Isengard at helms deep, he mustered an incredibly strong army of cavalry in only 3 days. In addition, the country was not nearly as poor and depopulated as the film presented it, they only lost the Westfold to the torches of Isengard, central Rohan and the eastfold were still going strong. Every single family of peasants likely owned at least 1 horse, and they lived their entire lives as Riders. They also had great store of arms and armor at their chief cities, as shown by the fact they were able to equip 6000 riders with gear of war in 3 days time. Just imagine what he could have accomplished in a week. It makes sense, both from a lore and gameplay perspective, that Rohan cavalry should be stronger then they are currently.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 13. Jan 2016, 21:32

Zitat

So once again, why is Rohan the ONLY faction who is "not allowed" to have anything strong late game?

Mearas, decently strong supporting heroes, troops and spells, the SB-camp, Royal Guard, spear-throwers, etc. I'm not saying those are all the way they are supposed to be right now (*cough*spear-throwers*cough*), but there is no need in just reworking the entire faction and give them such ludicrous buffs to their cavalry, instead of making those things viable. Also: The military camp gives you an entire army of upgraded cavalry -yeah, they might be bugged and not get the armor upgrade, but still: On paper this makes up for a tons of expensive upgrades without discount.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: Please notice: I am not saying Rohan is perfect right now! But there are certainly more elegant and less generic ways of making them stronger, even if it's just solving some bugs and buffing useless units.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 13. Jan 2016, 21:47

The spawn rate of the military camp is extremely slow, and those cavalry are still useless against pikes. Even if the bug was fixed and they received heavy armor and horseman shields. The only melee cavalry who stand a chance are Rohirrim of the Eastfold who can survive longer due to their formation, but they still lose.

You still have not addressed the fact that all the other factions have incredibly OP elements to them right now. The only way to fix this is to give Rohan something powerful, or to nerf all the OP elements, which makes the game much less fun. In addition, even if spear throwers were made useful, it would still be an infantry unit, and Rohan is supposed to be a cavalry faction.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 13. Jan 2016, 21:57

Yes and a 100% cavalry army which actually can deal with pikes well enough to be viable is simply broken. Look, I don't think we will find an answer for these problems we can both agree on. We certainly both see the problems Rohan has, but I simply don't think your ideas are that great, to be honest. And yes, I might add, that I think this total cavalry focus doesn't and shouldn't work, so some other options are required. (I actually posted one idea in the German forum an hour ago.)

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 13. Jan 2016, 22:02

Well, if cavalry is not to be the focus of Rohan, what then should be done? Rohan has no heavy infantry beyond the Westfold Captains, and the team has refused to add any new infantry units. Should Rohan late game consist entirely of Spear Throwers? What was your idea posted on the German forums?

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: -Mandos- am 13. Jan 2016, 22:16

In my opinion Rohans options in the late game should be weaker than those of other factions (like Isengard or Dwarves or whatever). That doesnt mean that they should be useless and without a chance but, as Melkor wrote in the german thread, but maybe in a more active and skill requiring way (that's why I dont like the idea of buffing the Mearas spell again in such a strong way even though I'm a fan of the Mearas in general).

Rohans late- game should therefore consist of several different units, meaning a mix of all their midgame options which are quite strong. If, for example, I focus on cavalry (of course) and westfold infantry in the midgame I can add other midgame options later so that I get the diversity of an actual late- game army.

To reach this point we dont even need fundamental changes, just a change of strength for some units (spear throwers), accessibility for others (for example permanent elven archers from Haldir) and some changes to the banner carriers which are quite fundamental for all kinds of Rohan tactics.
That means to win the late game the Rohan player has to keep an eye on all the different recruiting facilities and spells to provide a good support to his at least lvl 3 cavalry, so he can fight with upgraded peasants, Westfold Elite, Galadhrim and Rohan Archers/ spear throwers and of course the mighty cavalry forces. This resembles the character of a nation that is not prepared for a long war and therefore calls everyone to arms to win...

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 13. Jan 2016, 22:24

None of that is ever going to beat a fully upgraded Isengard army, Tower Guard spam or Dwarf Veteran spam, all of which are very easy to accomplish because of the powerful economies of these 3 factions. Against these 3 factions, Rohan stands no chance whatsoever late game.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: -DJANGO- am 13. Jan 2016, 22:27

Zitat

Make Rohan cavalry somewhat stronger, so that they could at least stand a fighting chance against pikes in late game.

- Totally disagree with you. I don't see any sense, why normal Riders should be able to have a chance against their counter. You just can't punish people for spaming Pikes, when its the normal counter to Riders. I agree that Rohan should get a better chance to deal with pikes. But I totally disagree, that the solution as you suggested lies in buffing the normal Cav!!! I don't know if you remember it, but in one patch Riders were buffed too much, making them OP against Pikes...
However I'm already suggesting for a long time an improvement for the light Cav in the German section. But my suggestion does not simply go into a "Buff-direction of Cav". I suggested A: that swordsmen should deal nearly no damage (and flank damage) against Riders. B: that Cav should not get so much deceleration, because it gets way too strong stuck in enemy units (especially riding out of enemy troops). The slowdown is already triggered by the clumping, which is an engine problem and can't be fixed easily.  => So improving this point, Rohan would benefit a lot, as it is mainly a Cav-faction.

Now back to reason, why you want to improve Rohans Cav., speak LG. => "What can, should Rohan be able to do against heavy pikes!":

1. Build Westfold Swordsmen, which are the counter to pikes.

2. Build Rohirrim-Archers. => At the moment they do quite moderate damage against heavy amored troops. I think buffing them especially against pikes, as in BFME1 would do a lot! In my eyes it would solve the problem. Archers on Riders are one of the strongest units which exist, because they can always ride away from their primary counter, pikes. That logically means, that they need to be weaker against enemy archers as melee Rider-types. Again therefore you have to possibility to upgrade them with heavy amor. Playing them with a good mirco, using shortkey "S" to hold them instant at one position, they become a unit which will always deal damage and can run away.

3. As Extra (for those who can't play with Rider-Archers): The suggestion of HAMAN. Spear-Throwers: Become the unit of the Rohirrim-Archers on foot. OR: they mainly stay the same, thus the best counter against Cav in the hole game. But get their palatir-ability will function "against the super Heavily Armored units".

4. Use the Royal Guard's ability.

Conclusion: I am totally against improving the standard Cav, so that they can "stand a fighting chance against pikes in late game".

Hope I made myself clear & we come to a result with wich anybody can live.
 :)

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: -Mandos- am 13. Jan 2016, 22:34

It shouldnt...
Rohan will have to be very active, destroy enemy resource structures and kite the enemy army until they have a chance.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 13. Jan 2016, 22:37

That's my point, Rohan will NEVER stand a chance against a full army of Isengard, Tower Guards or Dwarves. Its simply not possible to defeat a late game army of these factions with Rohans current roster. I have played many games as Rohan against every faction in the game, I have tried everything: Using infantry only, using cavalry archers only, using a mix of both, kiting enemy armies to go for the base and trading bases, nothing works. The armies are like invincible islands that your cavalry army cannot assault with any hope of victory. You can harass resource structures all day long, but at the end of it you still have to kill the enemy army to win. That cannot be done with Rohans current unit roster and economy issues.

Django, I agree that Rohirrim Archers should be stronger, however as I have already said, all you have to do to counter them is put some archers in the middle of your pikes, and the Rohirrim Archers become useless.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: -DJANGO- am 13. Jan 2016, 22:41

Zitat

Again therefore you have to possibility to upgrade them with heavy amor.

;)

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 13. Jan 2016, 22:41

You can do that in the current version and archers still slaughter them. Try it out and see for yourself.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: -DJANGO- am 13. Jan 2016, 22:45

I actually won an extreme LG match with 1800 Fire Arrow Riders. They killed pretty much everything Pikes, Rohirrim and of course two enemy Base's.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 13. Jan 2016, 22:58

Did the enemy in this match have a full upgraded Isengard army, Gondor Tower Guard army with rangers, or Dwarf army? If not then its a moot example. Additionally, I would like a replay, because I know for a fact that an 1800 Rohirrim Archer army cannot trump either of these 3 factions.

Zitat

In my opinion Rohans options in the late game should be weaker than those of other factions.

Can you give me a fair reason why Rohan should be stuck with a bad late game? Is it just because they have a strong early game? Isengard, Gondor and Dwarves all have pretty good early games, so this isn't enough of a reason in my eyes. Right now, Rohan is handicapped for no reason, at least that's the way I see it. For the third time, every other faction has strong late game units and abilities that do NOT require intense micro or harassment, so what reason is there that Rohan should be the only faction that requires this of the player?

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: -Mandos- am 13. Jan 2016, 23:27

Then that's the point: the earlygame of the other factions may be to good. A strong late game should come with a handicap in the earlygame and vice versa (in my opinion).

E.g. I'm a fan of stronger dwarven units that are more expensive etc etc.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 13. Jan 2016, 23:31

I don't really think its fair for any faction to be handicapped at any point of the game, that just makes for boring, "you must win at this point in the game or you lose" matches. All factions should have close to an equal chance at all stages in the game.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 13. Jan 2016, 23:39

I'm glad to see people are interested in this thread, but wow I've never seen a thread explode like this one has.

I must agree with Elite on this one.  Obviously there can't be perfect balance in all stages in the game.  But just because Rohan has a advantage early game, doesn't mean that Rohan should have no chance against certain faction's late game armies.  I don't find that fair at all.

I don't think anyone here doesn't think Rohan is not as powerful late game as the other factions.  That is why I don't understand why people are going against buffing Rohan a lot.  Having a difference on whether or not what makes them stronger is fine, but saying they are weak and should stay weak doesn't make much sense to me.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 13. Jan 2016, 23:42

To expand on that a little bit, its incredibly hard to finish off a faction early game. Most factions go at least to mid-game, where Rohan loses its advantages. Additionally, the team has stated multiple times that they don't like rush gameplay, and that they want games to always go on longer and reach late game. I share this sentiment. If Rohan remains so weak late game, then this is not being achieved as it should be.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Draco100000 am 13. Jan 2016, 23:44

Actually is completely unbalanced that Rohan cannot do anything except harass their rivals.
Actually every faction have lot of strategies if playing more defensive ( getting better units with isen for example) or do a decent early game (dungdelings, Bill ferny lvl10, wulfgar...)
 Isengard is an example of versatility and Great Late game throught their supertanky armies in Late.
Gondor also have pretty good spameable soldier, aswell a really good elites that can be buffed with several heros to make the gondor armie unstopable( dont forget ghost)

Also we have the OP veterans for the dwarves ( a player can get around 12-15 of them if the match gets long so the Late game of the dwarves is really good, but boring just the same unit( I hope they will be nerfed to 3 limited vets)  and Finally the mighty elves with good warriors in all parts of the game.

Then we have rohan with several handicaps the first one is that rohan depends on harassement. Why not get more than half of the map and become stronger? because you cant. Even with great armies of peasants they suck a lot. Caval is usefull well used but is useless once your enemie spam heavy pikemen. Then the capìtains give you some chances but arent enough good to counter every single enemie elite unit. So rohan lacks on 1 of the most importants things in this game: elite infantry. Camon this is pointless. Every siongle faction have chances on late game. But rohan only have 1 hero giving leadership ( theoden) then rohan only have peasants as infantry. Capitains can be also but they are just useless when your enemie have lots of better units than the capitains ones. If you could just get more westfold infantry....like in the 3.8.1.
Also even with a lvl 10 theoden, the mighty charge isnt enough to counter other lategames. So finally you only have 1 chance, spam archers on horse and run from the enemie armie.  get the tents and got enough money to buy you the armors (that should be free, but the power is bugged and we have being saying this several patches, but never fixed)

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 13. Jan 2016, 23:49

Good points. Theodens leadership is actually the strongest one in the game, and it also affects heroes, so I don't think theres an issue there. I agree that more infantry would help a lot, but I doubt the team is willing to add any more infantry to Rohan. Also, more infantry would somewhat negate the point of Rohan being a cavalry oriented faction.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: -Mandos- am 13. Jan 2016, 23:52

The point is, buffing cavalry is the wrong way to buff Rohan.
I don't know if you've played 3.81 but there Rohan is actually pretty strong because of overpowered Galadhrim. It worked in a way as a balancing factor even though it ruined the gameplay.
And that's what I wanted to say: We need to give Rohan a lot of different units that are strong enough for the late game (like the westfold units or the Galadhrim), each of them limited so you HAVE to use a mix of them in the late game (they can be limited in special ways like the Galadhrim you only get through a spell. If the archers would stay you could gather more of them and actually utilize the healing abilites of Rohan.)
These armies mixed up from different kinds of elite units should be weaker than some late- game armies, but not that much, so you can compensate for your still weaker infantry with your better cavalry (and a few hordes of upgraded Rohirrim with Theoden etc. can and will crush the enemy archers so YOUR infantry amry can deal with their weakened one). That will, of course, require that you hold a firm grip on map control, which you should have gained earlier.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: ringbearer am 13. Jan 2016, 23:52

It's maybe unortodox but I think that only 1 option on outpost it's what makes a difference. The amount of help in type of heroic units, elite units , heroes or resources other factions get it's overwhelming in middle-late game. (Please be gentle :D i am just thinking out of a box )

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 13. Jan 2016, 23:58

Zitat von: -Mandos- am 13. Jan 2016, 23:52

The point is, buffing cavalry is the wrong way to buff Rohan.
I don't know if you've played 3.81 but there Rohan is actually pretty strong because of overpowered Galadhrim. It worked in a way as a balancing factor even though it ruined the gameplay.
And that's what I wanted to say: We need to give Rohan a lot of different units that are strong enough for the late game (like the westfold units or the Galadhrim), each of them limited so you HAVE to use a mix of them in the late game (they can be limited in special ways like the Galadhrim you only get through a spell. If the archers would stay you could gather more of them and actually utilize the healing abilites of Rohan.)
These armies mixed up from different kinds of elite units should be weaker than some late- game armies, but not that much, so you can compensate for your still weaker infantry with your better cavalry (and a few hordes of upgraded Rohirrim with Theoden etc. can and will crush the enemy archers so YOUR infantry amry can deal with their weakened one). That will, of course, require that you hold a firm grip on map control, which you should have gained earlier.

Why? Why is buffing cavalry bad? I have seen no reasons for saying buffing cavalry would be bad so far, other than "they would be unkillable by pikes" which is completely untrue. Also, Rohan cavalry loses to Isengard Crossbows late game with shieldbearers and captains, and most players keep their archers protected by at least 1 or 2 pikes. Since porcupine immediately freezes cavalry in their tracks, you can effectively prevent cavalry from harassing archers very easily.

Again, why is Rohan the only faction that should require a diverse mix of units, heavy micromanagement and harassment? You have given no good reasons to convince me so far. No other faction in the game has to deal with this, they can all get away with just building big armies and winning. So why should Rohan have to be the odd man out?

I agree Ringbearer, Rohan does indeed need another type of outpost. That's not the root of all the issues though, and there is a whole other thread for discussing that topic, with lots of great ideas. Go voice your support there :)

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: -DJANGO- am 14. Jan 2016, 00:16

Zitat

Why? Why is buffing cavalry bad?

- Don't get us wrong. Buffing Cav per se ain't bad. But buffing Cav against their NR.1 counter is another thing...
I gave you guys many different solutions to this topic (see above). But I just won't understand why you persist on the point, that Buffing Standard Cav against pikes  is "such a great solution".
I don't think that Rohan is the only faction, that needs a mix of units to win. It's just a bit blurry, because every faction reacts with counters. So when Rohan goes for Riders, the enemy  has to build pikes (forced adaption which weakens the Infantry strengh). Therefore the Rohan player has to do the next counter step and so on and on and on... (I really don't think that you will see a Gondor player doing only Swordsmen (no Mix), while Rohan players goes strong on Riders.

P.S.: Were my suggestions REALLY so useless? Think about it...

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 14. Jan 2016, 00:17

I think everyone is focusing on the Late Game Army part of this Arguement a bit too much. 

I would still like to advertise the idea of Rohan getting Grand Harvest, or something similar to Grand Harvest.  The economy of Rohan needs to be looked at too.  I would like to here if there is support for this idea, or if you think there is a better way to do improve the Economy.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 14. Jan 2016, 00:23

Zitat von: -DJANGO- am 14. Jan 2016, 00:16

Zitat

Why? Why is buffing cavalry bad?

- Don't get us wrong. Buffing Cav per se ain't bad. But buffing Cav against their NR.1 counter is another thing...
I gave you guys many different solutions to this topic (see above). But I just won't understand why you persist on the point, that Buffing Standard Cav against pikes  is "such a great solution".
I don't think that Rohan is the only faction, that needs a mix of units to win. It's just a bit blurry, because every faction reacts with counters. So when Rohan goes for Riders, the enemy  has to build pikes (forced adaption which weakens the Infantry strengh). Therefore the Rohan player has to do the next counter step and so on and on and on... (I really don't think that you will see a Gondor player doing only Swordsmen (no Mix), while Rohan players goes strong on Riders.

P.S.: Were my suggestions REALLY so useless? Think about it...

The only suggestions you have posted so far is to increase the strength of Rohirrim Archers and Spear Throwers, both of which I agree with. Additionally, if you look back at my very first post, the only things I was asking for were buffs to their survivability, not their damage, purely so that they don't die instantly like they currently do, and to help them trample for longer periods of time before getting stuck. That's all the idea was, yet everybody seems to think I was calling to make the cavalry unkillable death machines. This is not the case. If the Royal Breeding power gave them more health and defense against pikes, they would then be able to actually deal damage to a mass of pikes, unlike currently where they just die uselessly. You would still take losses, but you could actually inflict casualties too. That was the whole point of my idea.

Additionally, your not getting the main point of this discussion either. The point is that due to the weakness of Rohans infantry, pike spam is a surefire counter against anything that they can field. You literally cannot defeat Gondor, Isengard or Dwarves if they spam pikes and pop some archers in the middle. Dwarves of course have veterans too. That's why the call for buffing cavalry is so prominent, because the enemy always spams pikes REGARDLESS of what you make, they do not need to "counter" you, because you can't kill them anyways!

Yes Haman, your right of course, the economy is another big factor which should be looked at. I still agree with the upgrade discount from having multiple armories, and I also agree with giving Rohan some kind of economic upgrade.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Sawman am 14. Jan 2016, 01:11

Wow this thread  :D 

So I will just jump in and say I'd really like to see Rohan buffed in a lot of ways.

1.I have no idea about this one but maybe the team can answer it? My suggestion is that if the charge of cavalry is different at all between all the faction I suggest that the normal Rohirrim(ones with spear) have a significantly higher charge then say Eastfold Rohirrim or Gondor knights because they have something to charge with instead of just a melee weapon maybe this buff could also be applied to Royal Guard and Swan Knights as well because they also have a charging weapon. I think the normal Rohhirrim  need a buff because at the moment there is no point in getting them because from what I can tell Eastfold Rohhirrm have the same charge and a formation that is just far more useful and they cost the exact same so why would you ever buy normal Rohhirrim?

2. I completely agree that Rohan needs eco buffs because they currently only have eco boost so to speak and that's theo's taxes. Although that is very helpful EG it's not fantastic MidG and LG and the farm you use it on has to be a settlement if I am not mistaken so it leaves it vulnerable , so by adding a Grand Harvest variant to Rohan,  this would at least give them an eco boost and paired with theo having to be cured wouldn't make it overpowered. Also I think they need more discounts so having multiple armories should give you a discount for upgrades because the armory is also your siege equipment building so it makes sense to get more than one and I think you should receive a bonus for having more than one.

3. I really like the idea of making the Royal Horses (or whatever its called xp) being improved with a buff and adding it to a higher power point value is the right move because at the moment when I get it I don't get really get excited that my cavalry is just a little bit better if they make it to level 3 so right now I find it like a meh power point and should be better imo

thanks might have more to post later ;)         

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 14. Jan 2016, 01:24

I do want to bring up one more point about this thread, which really has to do with the first post.  I really like that the original, stats wise, a lot.  I don't think that a boost like that will make Riders Unkillable machines that destroy everything.  It's really all that the cavalry need. 

My major problem with it is that it is a Spellbook Power.  No other faction has any sort of Unit stat increases inside their Spellbook.  The Power you are suggesting would make players have to get this power in order to have a powerful late game, something I can't get behind because of how far it is down the Spellbook, pretty much railroading players.  No faction's main gameplay mechanics require a Spellbook power in order to win, and by the sound of this power, that's what it is turning into.  It would pretty much make player go for the power because if they don't, and they lose map control in late game, or never had it to begin with, Rohan loses, without any chance to fight back. 

So therefore, I would recommend putting it as an additional perk to Glorious King.  Once Theoden is free, the player is able to purchase the upgrade.  It could be purchased from the Armoury or Stables, and cost 1500 to for the upgrade to take effect. I don't think that limiting it behind this power would be much of a problem either, because Glorious King is easy to obtain, is something almost anyone buys anyways, and if your freeing Theoden, it is usually not for a peasant army, but a Cavalry army.

Of course, if this happens, there is one free spot in the Rohan Spell Book.  Feel free, if u agree with my idea, to leave an idea for a new 2 or 3 point power besides Royal Horses.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 14. Jan 2016, 01:37

Well, this seems a fair proposal to me. I personally would rather have it as a spellbook, considering that its already railroaded anyways because of ents. However, I think that if Rohan can just get something of an economy boost, that it would be fair to have a stronger version Royal Breeding as an upgrade and put a new spellbook power for Rohan. My idea for a new 2 point power(Royal Breeding costs 2 points) would be Gondor Allies, to represent the strong bond between the people of Gondor and Rohan. It could summon some heavy infantry to the field, like a tower guard and a couple of gondor soldiers, to help Rohan hold the line for a little bit early game with some stronger infantry. It wouldn't summon any heroes, just 3 battalions of troops. I think that would fill the void nicely, and would give a decent summon on both sides of the spellbook tree.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: DrHouse93 am 14. Jan 2016, 03:36

I agree with Haman's idea of the upgrade, and overall with the opinions of Kryptic. Buffing Rohan's infantry is no sense for me, mainly for a lore-reason (the only chance when we saw an infantry army of Rohan was at the Black Gate and Helm's Deep, and they're just particular cases. Anywhere in the books you can read that the might of Rohan's armies was its cavalry)

And also, as Kryptic said, the point is not to turn the Rohirrim into unkillable death machines, but to prevent them from miserably die against pikes, because, if I'm not mistaking, Swordsmen don't deal so much damage to Pikes (the unit type they're weak against), and also Archers don't deal so much damage to upgraded Infantry. So why should cavalry die so ridiculously against Pikes (especially Rohan's one, which is the most powerful in the whole Middle-Earth?)

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Gnomi am 14. Jan 2016, 10:05

I won't write much, just a small thing:

Zitat

I don't really think its fair for any faction to be handicapped at any point of the game, that just makes for boring, "you must win at this point in the game or you lose" matches. All factions should have close to an equal chance at all stages in the game.

I completely disagree here. As long as there are differences between the factions, it will always mean that some factions are handicapped in different stages at the game - of course this should not mean that a faction has no chance to win at some point of the game, but it can be weaker.

As people are quite often comparing things to Bfme I or Bfme II:
In Bfme I Mordor and Isengard were horrible in the EG and bad in MG, but really strong in LG.
Rohan had big difficulties against an Isengard army in LG and the only chance to win a direct fight for Rohan were the spells (Army of the dead ftw :P).

Rohan was a strong harass faction, they were never meant to have a strong army for a direct fight. Their target was to harass and therefore have a better economy than the enemy. (you can kill some of the small armies with your fast army and you can destroy all the economy buildings easily)

By doing this they can always have a bigger army (or at least more expensive). In a direct fight they could only win because of Theoden's lvl 4 ability (only 10% damage taken for all knights). But as soon as it gets into lategame they always have to play much smarter than other factions in direct fights to win.

It was the same in 3vs3/4vs4:
Rohan's goal was NOT to fight the enemy directly... As said Rohan is the harass faction. Rohan's goal was to kill single fleeing units and harass the enemy. By doing this the enemy had less troups and was overall weaker - even though Rohan couldn't fight them alone, their allies were able to build a stronger army  and therefore win the fights.
So Rohan's  work is not done in the big battles, but before it and while big battles somewhere else. That's where and when Rohan can help...

---

What does this mean for Edain?
I don't say that Rohan is perfectly balanced atm.^^ All I want to say is that imo it would be very boring if every faction would be equal in strength in direct battles. Not every faction should be played exactly equal (with equal I don't mean building the same units - but having the same strategy, just with different units). Of course Rohan should still be strong in LG, but they should not win a battle against Isengard/Mordor, if both player's just AA the enemy army, as Rohan's strength lies somewhere different.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 14. Jan 2016, 13:56

Good to see a member of the team make a post in this thread :)

I can agree that balance between all the Factions can not be perfect.  It is impossible to have perfect balance.  There will always be someone with a slight advantage at every stage of the game. 

But unfortunately, that's not the case here.  Gondor, Dwarves, and Isengard can get to the point where no matter what you do as Rohan, you can not kill them.  There isn't even a chance.  (Assuming the players are of equal skill level, or course)

And it's not like what Gondor, Dwarves, or Isengard is doing to get in this situation is hard.  All they have to do is spam pikes (or veterans in the Dwarves case).  And as soon as they find out what faction you are, that's all they will do.  The reason they do this is because Rohan can't kill upgraded pikes with their weakness.  Peasants don't get anywhere when they attack Isengard pikes, Gondor Tower Guards, and especially Dwarven Veterans.  The only other way to kill them is Horse Archers, and even that can't happen because it only takes a few upgraded archers for your enemy and that strategy also fails. 

I'm not saying that if Cavalry are to charge head first into pikes the Cavalry should win.  But right now they don't do pretty much any damage.  It's not even close.  Pikes completely obliterate the cavalry no matter what you do. 

That is also a problem I have with Lothlorien's palace guard.  The team has said that Palace Guard are supposed to be specialized at killing cavalry, and not as good on anything else as other factions elite pikes.  But what's the difference right now between running cavalry into Isengard Pikes with ShieldBearers, Towerguards, and Palace Guard?  No matter what the cavalry get obliterated.  In fact, the Isengard pikes and Tower Guards have the advantage over the Palace Guards because they take less damage. 

All we r asking is that Rohan Cavalry don't get completely wrecked by Upgraded Pikes and Dwarven Veterans.  A good Rohan player should have a chance against these, but unfortunately right now they don't.

That and Rohan's economy needs some improvements.  It takes forever for Rohan to make money because of the lack of Economic upgrades outside Corrupted Theoden and Eomer, as well has the very high price of what they try to buy.  It take so long for Rohan to get a fully upgraded Army because of this.

And hopefully Spearthrowers get some improvements, but that's an entirely different discussion. 

I hope you understand where we are coming from when we ask for an upgrade like this.  Rohan should at least have a chance.   

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 14. Jan 2016, 14:32

I'm not sure I entirely agree on the economic aspect. Let the cavalry/pikes balance issue aside, Eomer does provide a lot of money with his passive ability (well, could provide if you were actually able to kill some enemy troops later on). So far, I always have a lot of money with Rohan from 30 minutes. Before that, Cruel Taxes helps quite well. I'm not saying Rohan get more money than everyone else, but considering how limited your options are in late game, the amount of money I generally earn has always proven to be enough for my needs. If Rohan gets better but more expensive options, my speech might change. However right now I kinda disagree.

As for late game options, I think we should first agree on the expectations:
~> Should Rohan late game army be 100% riders? Then a cavalry buff is welcome (both rohirrims, eastfold riders and mounted archers).
~> Should it be a main force of cavalry supported by some infantry or/and archers ? In that case it might not be necessary to buff riders, but one should take a look at improving peasants late game (and permanent Galadhrims? better spear thrower?)
That's my humble opinion on the matter.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 14. Jan 2016, 17:23

Zitat von: Slawek56703 am 14. Jan 2016, 15:42

Well i had diffrent idea i would like to ask what is problem generally Rohan or Rohan Cavalry ?

Second maybe give Rohhirims and eastfold rohhirims formations instead of stances Like:
Anti Pike Formation ; horde changes thier formation buff type : +% to armor vs pike damage -% vs cavalry
Anti Sword Formation ; +% to armor vs swordsman - vs archers
Anti Archer formation ; +% to armor vs archers - vs pike
This are only examples you can develop and give values as you want this is only idea to buff CAVALRY in certain situoations . What more with diffrent type they can be slower / faster receive even maybe some upgrade like shield but this is little unlikly
whats more level 5 can grant boost like royal banner but harder to archive
LG is no matter what harder since rohan need not only defend himself but to attack with strategy Rohhirim Archers + Rohhirim/eastfold one using formations vs certian enemies like i mentioned above could be useful but this is little more work especialy when we ugprade them with armor/shields so edain proably need to make many neu armor I mean (attributes for certain stance no textures ;p)
I aggre with buff Archer Rohhirims vs Pike well this is all sorry for eng and i hope formations no matter what will be useful thanks and good lock with LG
PS : Minor changes to rest of factions would be good too somethink is to op make lees values
PS2 Rohan eco upgrade mentioned pages before is good for rohan to imo

I'm very sorry, but I really can't understand any of that. Please try to clean it up a bit.

Gnomi, thanks for the reply! You'll notice I said in the quote "close to an equal chance" not "an exactly equal chance". I will also say that the Edain mod is far from the balance of BFME1, and right now Rohan can actually do a fairly decent job against Mordor, unlike in bfme1.

As for anything else, Haman hit all the points, and there's no need for me to repeat them. I'll just say Its a real problem that regardless of how good you are, you cannot win late game. Worse, all the enemies have to do is sit in their exceptionally well defended bases and build their armies. So this forces exactly what you say you want to avoid: boring matches where players always win with the same strategy. Either Rohan must ram rush the enemy to finish them, before even getting out of the peasant stage of the game, or they will lose to pike spam. Its been like this ever since Pikes were buffed and trample deceleration was massively increased.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: -Mandos- am 14. Jan 2016, 18:42

Zitat von: Elite KryPtik am 13. Jan 2016, 23:58

Again, why is Rohan the only faction that should require a diverse mix of units, heavy micromanagement and harassment? You have given no good reasons to convince me so far. No other faction in the game has to deal with this, they can all get away with just building big armies and winning. So why should Rohan have to be the odd man out?

First reason is because it fits the style of the faction  [uglybunti]
Rohan should currently be the most agressive faction out (only rivaled by the misty mountains) and therefore they are the only faction, again together with the misty mountains, that should, in my opinion, require more activity and more skill in the late game than the other factions to keep up or beat them. It shouldnt be impossible, but more difficult than just clicking on your castle and recruiting two or maybe three types of units... (And I can imagine a Rohan army winning against a dwarven army if all the things I mentioned would be possible)

As for why I dislike buffing cavalry: if I need too many pikes to stop cavalry or if they just trample through my units without getting slowed down properly it just feels stupid and useless and ruins the feeling and secondly a passive upgrade of that strength together with the already really strong and "passive" camp spell wouldnt fit the playstyle of Rohan as an active faction that much.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 14. Jan 2016, 18:50

Well, I don't agree that it fits the "style" as you call it, of the faction. They have a pretty strong army in the lore. This is regardless though, because right now it is impossible to win against Isengard, Dwarves and Gondor, unless you do it in the first 10 minutes. Right now there is precious little reason to even get a stables, your far better off just making all flour mills and spamming peasants like crazy, and then quickly ram spamming the enemy once you have map control. Adding more infantry or buffing infantry is not going to fix this problem, in fact it will make it worse. So if something is not done to make cavalry USEFUL then people are just going to avoid it entirely, unless cavalry is also buffed alongside adding the new infantry. If the team wants Rohan to function as a cavalry faction, that cavalry needs to be stronger. Otherwise Rohan is going to remain as the one-dimensional rushing spam faction that cannot win late game.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Slawek56703 am 15. Jan 2016, 07:26

Good I hope that this time it will be possible to read.
My idea is based to remove the formation of the Rohirrim and the Rohirrim of Eastfold.
It was discussed to improve the cavalry against the enemy, not an option no new entity or any amendment in the armor, so I thought of a special formation against such entities as Gondor Tower Guards / Dwarf Veterans / Isengard Shieldbearers
Instead of the previous stances Aggressive / Defensive / and Battle. How does it work ? Already I translate
Aggressive Stance converted into formation against archers - Unit receives 30% armor against arrows and buildings. However, it receives a negative effect and receives 30% weaker armor against pikemen or soldiers or cawalerii
Battle Stance turns on the formation against the troops
Unit receives 30% damage against the troops also the heavy battalions, but have weaker armor against buildings and archers.
Defensive Stance turns on the formation against pikemen. The unit receives 30% or more armor against pikemen but they can not be crushed. In addition, as a negative efect may have weaker armor against the troops. Of course, all formations who against whom and how inflicts damage or armor gets what may be converted and changed by Edain Team or anyone. Just the idea of ​​formations came into my mind, because it seems to me that the cavalry could be effective in a given situation against a foe. But at the same time less effective if the enemy will select the appropriate units. But we know that the cavalry is based on speed so it should make it run away to camp or better castle unless you enemy surrounds you every Rohan player should not under any circumstances afford. And in the camp or to escape the Rohirrim Rohirrim may be accompanied by archers who can focus on each other enemy units or shoot while moving. If the idea sucks just put away I do not have nothing to lose but I wanted to be understandable and possible to read. Thanks and sorry for my first post.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 15. Jan 2016, 13:47

Zitat von: Slawek56703 am 15. Jan 2016, 07:26

Good I hope that this time it will be possible to read.
My idea is based to remove the formation of the Rohirrim and the Rohirrim of Eastfold.
It was discussed to improve the cavalry against the enemy, not an option no new entity or any amendment in the armor, so I thought of a special formation against such entities as Gondor Tower Guards / Dwarf Veterans / Isengard Shieldbearers
Instead of the previous stances Aggressive / Defensive / and Battle. How does it work ? Already I translate
Aggressive Stance converted into formation against archers - Unit receives 30% armor against arrows and buildings. However, it receives a negative effect and receives 30% weaker armor against pikemen or soldiers or cawalerii
Battle Stance turns on the formation against the troops
Unit receives 30% damage against the troops also the heavy battalions, but have weaker armor against buildings and archers.
Defensive Stance turns on the formation against pikemen. The unit receives 30% or more armor against pikemen but they can not be crushed. In addition, as a negative efect may have weaker armor against the troops. Of course, all formations who against whom and how inflicts damage or armor gets what may be converted and changed by Edain Team or anyone. Just the idea of ​​formations came into my mind, because it seems to me that the cavalry could be effective in a given situation against a foe. But at the same time less effective if the enemy will select the appropriate units. But we know that the cavalry is based on speed so it should make it run away to camp or better castle unless you enemy surrounds you every Rohan player should not under any circumstances afford. And in the camp or to escape the Rohirrim Rohirrim may be accompanied by archers who can focus on each other enemy units or shoot while moving. If the idea sucks just put away I do not have nothing to lose but I wanted to be understandable and possible to read. Thanks and sorry for my first post.

I don't think this is a good idea.  People can switch between stances very quickly, and if a player knows what he is doing it will turn the Cavalry into the Unkillable Death Machines we don't want them to turn into.  Cavalry still need a counter.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Slawek56703 am 15. Jan 2016, 16:21

@Hamanathnath
And what if we add to each formation time I have in mind such a situation you activate one formation and it works as in the case of Arnor hero that activates the bonus for cavalry, archers or soldiers? Not a bad idea so that each battalion of cavalry will be able to fight on many fronts. So there are three formations each formation has its advantages and disadvantages select one and only this one since then is additionally appropriate time when we can use it again. (And here is the choice of 1 of 3 or 1 formation and the rest will be disabled.) What do you think?

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Skeeverboy am 15. Jan 2016, 16:24

A timer isn't possilbe for formations.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Slawek56703 am 15. Jan 2016, 16:53

@Skeeverboy
I was thinking something like activated power or something like Aragorn Blade Master. But I understood what was going on if we have 3 Anti formations against certain unit then it may look like I mentioned above, the hero of Arnor his name Araphrant if I write well. He can choose who gets the morale of soldiers, archers, cavalry.And thats how it can look like.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 15. Jan 2016, 17:34

There just fundamental problems with the suggestion.  Even with a timer, because cavalry are faster then pikemen, it makes it too easy when fighting something other then pikes to just run away and switch forms if pikes come.  I would also make cavalry insanely strong against everything else.  And why would Rohan cavalry have an ability like this, and not any other cavalry from other factions?  And what would the difference between Rohirrim and Rohirrim of the Eastfold with this change?

I appreciate that you are trying to come up with an idea to fix this problem, but I still don't think this is a good way to do it. 

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 15. Jan 2016, 17:42

I am with Haman on this. The natural counter is the pike/spear and should remain the pike/spear. The problem is that Rohan's light cavalry is not tanky enough to deal with late-game upgraded armies. Especially when it comes to trampling units. Their damage, however, is fine.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Joragon am 15. Jan 2016, 17:55

But the main problem in my opinion is not that Rohans Rohirrim are too weak against spears. Probably that's one problem, but the main thing is that Rohan doesn't has quite good alternatives to Rohirrim. They need too much time to upgrade their peasants so that they can deal with other factions in MG or LG.

Just making Rohirrim better against spears would actually cause that the only opinion for Rohans enemy is to spam spears because nothing else is enough effective against Horses.

So I think it has to be changed that the Rohirrim should probably do a bit more damage against Spearmen AND to change that it is attractive for the enemy to not only build pikes.
Rohans other Units like peasants should be improved, not in there direct strength, but probably it should be easier to upgrade them.

So then the enemy don't spams pikes in this mass and Rohirrim are more effective.
LG
Joragon

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Morwereth am 15. Jan 2016, 18:26

Well, I have been following this forum for months but I did not fancy writing. Until I saw this thread.  :D

I don't remember when, Team metioned that they don't want to give more than one ability/stance to basic units. So I think Slawek's idea can't be used for basic units at least.
 
All factions have elite/heroic units which make trouble for opponent. Besides, Gondor and Dwarves have good cavalry and ram riders although they suppose to be infantry based faction. These two factions give a player an oppurtunity to support his army with good cavalry.

Rohan doesn't have proper infantry (except glitched westfold swordmen) for countering enemy pike spam. Team doesn't want to add units for Rohan so player has only two choices: peasant spam or buffed cavalry.

Why Rohan (cavalry faction) must spam peasants to win this game? I don't think most of people are happy while they're playing with Rohan. Spamming weak infantry like Mordor is not lore-wise or fun at all.

I like KryPtik's idea. Purchasable upgrade from armoury (or Spellbook) would improve Rohan's gameplay significantly. As much as i read, there are some inconveniencies for this idea.

1) New buff turn Rohirrim to a warmachine.

This buff can be configurable after testing process. We don't want Rohirrim to wreck all pikes via trampling. However, if cavalry faction can't hold against enemy pike spam why would people want to play with Rohan? If Rohirrim of Eastfold become tankier with this buff, player can support them with Rohirrim Archers. This gives player a chance in LG.

2) Players would not have an option with this buff in spellbook.

Well, I haven't seen any people who choose military camp first. If this upgrade will be purchasable via spellbook, it can be added bottom of military camp. Also players who play with dwarves mostly go for Final Stand. We all know how it is effective with dwarven veterans.

I would like to see it in armoury though. I also support Hamman's Grand Harvest suggestion. It can be purchasable on new Outpost. I think big-village concept will work fine for this upgrade.

My suggestion is about Eomer. He seems like more unit supporter than mass slayer. His piercing spear, memorial and ride of the exiled skills don't fit with his role. Perhaps Team may want to change him a bit. If he is an unit supporter, new buff would be his level 10 passive skill. If he stays as a mass slayer I think his skills should be changed entirely. Rohan heroes except Theoden usually strong in EG an MG. Improvement of Eomer would give option to player in LG. Perhaps his cost can be 1800.

I try to explain my thoughts as much as i can, I hope it can be helpful.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Slawek56703 am 15. Jan 2016, 18:39

Okay, so the conversion stances into formation does not make sense. While it is true I have to admit you're right in the long run, this sucks. I do not know why but still I'd like something to think about with formations. So maybe the existing formations change to activate powers to make them more useful. Formation maintained at 20 seconds, and recycling is possible after 60 seconds. The formation is similar (in Edain 3.8.1 to Imladris), and now similar to Rohan Archers who also have activated power. Besides that you mentioned about why other cavalry units can not have anything like this, the reason is so that each faction has something unique example wargs Isengard have the power to heal themselves, I know it's not free is just an example. Besides, if you say that it will be too similar to another faction in this case to Imladris that this fraction can get something else such as joining battalions of archers and pikemen / soldiers. Do not forget that if we want to maintain Rohan as fractions of cavalry and LG has to be balanced, it can not do without changing other units of the faction, and how we might damage the balance of the game. I do not understand the problem of the economy, even if you raise the amount of resources for Rohan and lasted for LG, it would end up with the cavalry it is logical and additionally canonical from the movie and the book. And is it really Rohan needs support in LG? If so, perhaps only this mysterious outpost can change the situation for Rohan.
PS : Outpost is LG solution
Edit is was answer to Haman i write longer since Google Translator ;p

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 15. Jan 2016, 19:02

Just a random thought, what if Rohirrims had a toggle between spears and bow? They would be more dynamic to play and there would be real choice between them and Eastfold riders. Of course Rohirrim archers would have to be removed.

By the way, I agree with buffing Eomer (I wanted to talk about it. :D ) Right now all Rohan heroes cost 1600 or less (supposing you get Uncorrupted Theoden with Glorious King). This is why a lot of players go for peasants+heroes spam ; you can get so many heroes very quickly who will hide into your peasants army and wreck havoc. A more expensive but stronger Eomer would be a slight nerf to that strategy while improving Rohan late game. Of course I'm talking about a 300 g. raise,  it's not much but still a start.

EDIT: Also, Eomer's passive could be for riders only.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 15. Jan 2016, 19:19

I completely disagree with Slawek, Rohirrim need a straight buff that can be unlocked late game.

I also disagree with buffing Eomer, I think he's in a good spot right now ever since the team buffed his abilities. However, I would still call for replacing Memorial with a more suiting ability for a mass slayer.

I don't think there is any need to have a bow/spear toggle, as this ability is already on the Rohirrim from the Military Camp.

Morwereth, Welcome to the forums! I'm glad you agree, if more guests would join in on the conversation and reveal their thoughts we might get a better idea of how many people want a better Rohan late game. Thanks for the post!

You are right that nobody ever goes for Military Camp first, people go for ents to try and coincide the ents with a ram rush to finish off the enemy quickly, because they have no chance late game. If the Royal Breeding was buffed and unlocked via spellbook, and switched costs to make it a 6 point power while elf summon was a 3 point, it could certainly be moved to the right and the 3 hunters move to the left. This would actually make a lot of sense, because then people could go left for the aggressive summon support and Ents, or go right for the longer game of getting Royal Breeding and Military Camp. This would add a lot of diversity to games that have Rohan in them.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 15. Jan 2016, 19:30

I think untill now there wasn't a single one that said, Rohan should not be buffed in the LG and both in the German and the English forum there was some to much interest for this topic.
Also, I don't think that Memorial should be replaced: It is actually really strong in the LG because Rohan has no other debuffs (and the effect of damage debuffs diminishes if they are stacked, because damage scales multiplicatively).
BTW: Currently I am not writing something in this topic, because I am convinced of your thoughts about how Rohan is to be changed, but because I see no point in explaining my point if the response is getting told precisely why my opinion (better: my arguments) is (are) wrong. This is not meant as an offense, but I seriously do not enjoy this way of discussing. ;)

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 15. Jan 2016, 20:03

Well, that's how debates and discussions work my friend :)

If somebody would present a point to me I could not disprove, I wouldn't do it. However, all it has been up till now is people saying it should be one way or another based on what they want, or on their opinions, not based on fact. My idea is entirely based on the fact that right now Rohans late game is awful, and their cavalry cannot stand up to late game upgraded armies. I have played, as I said, hundreds of games with Rohan, and have played even more AGAINST Rohan, I know their strengths and weaknesses like the back of my hand.

Cavalry do good damage, however; they are too weak to survive anything beyond a single trample. Therefore, I ask for a health and armor buff. Additionally, peasants literally lose to late game pike spam of enemy armies. So this means that regardless of how you play, the enemy needs to only do a single thing, that is survive, spam pikes and upgrade them, and you have automatically lost. I have seen what I just described happen, conservatively, at least 200 times. If something happens THAT OFTEN, then its concrete proof of fact. I'm not just basing my idea on what I want, I'm basing it off of fact.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 15. Jan 2016, 20:27

I'd argue that it doesn't always have to be exactly this way. I have no problem in getting myself proven wrong, but like a number of people, I pointed out certain weaknesses in your concepts (or others, that is of course not centered around you), and I myself do not think I ever got a sufficient answer for this.
Other than that I would prefer to not have this discussion in public, because I don't want this topic to get mixed with different discussions. Just let me tell this: I don't think your arguments are as crystal clear as they may seem to you and I'm pretty sure others think so as well (because the pointed out similar problems). From my point of view a ton of questions / problems remain still unanswered. However I don't really feel the need of expressing these concerns if criticism for these ideas is mainly answered by you, "proving" them wrong, while supporting the ones aggreeing. I am certain you don't mean it this way, but this kind of sticks out for me.
And please notice, that I am not saying your or others' arguments are wrong. I am mainly trying to point out that it doesn't really encourage a discussion if you constantly jump on every comment. Sometimes it's better to watch for other opinions and you won't get those this way, otherwise it turns into a one-person-discussion. (And please don't write, others have replied, too, so this isn't a one-person-discussion. This isn't the essence of what I said.) ;)

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 15. Jan 2016, 20:37

Well, I haven't been intending to reply to every comment, although I suppose some of that did happen the other day because I was very passionate about the thread. Additionally, you'll noticed towards the beginning I encouraged others to come up with their own ideas to fix Rohan late game as well. I suppose, that when people just post entirely disagreeing with ideas presented and have no idea of their own is when I may get frustrated. In any case, as I said its not my intention to "shut down" or intimidate people in this thread, quite the opposite, I'm overjoyed its received so many replies.

Now, that said, I hold the right to respectfully disagree or try to prove wrong ideas that I disagree with, just as everybody else does. If my responses and others don't prove to you the logic behind my idea, then nothing will unless you go in game and play for yourself. As long as it doesn't become an abusive argument between 2 people, I see no issue with trying to disprove others arguments with experience and fact if you can. Finally, please tell me what the holes you see in my idea are, because if they are in fact holes then I can improve the idea or fix the problems. Additionally, if you have any ideas of your own to improve Rohans late game, please share them. I just want Rohan to suck less late game, that's my only goal here.

I think that later today I will gather up all the ideas that have been presented thus far and make a "superpost" at the start of the thread to allow people to easily see what ideas have been presented to help Rohans late game thus far. If any mods are reading this, can you change the name of the thread to "Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas"?

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 15. Jan 2016, 22:42

That might be a good idea yeah. Although it generally comes down to the following three:

1. Buff their LG economy (a bit).

2. Either buff Rohan cavalry (via PP spells or somewhere else).

3. Or buff Rohan's counters to pikes.

These 3, cut clear, are Rohan's main issues at the moment, I think. The miscellaneous ideas presented in this post all presented different ways to possibly improve Rohan's standing in the LG and are mostly related to the three points presented.

Perhaps a poll with different options could be considered?

Looking forward to that big post of yours.

Cheers!

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 15. Jan 2016, 22:49

I guess a poll may be appropriate at this point, although the team has stated they don't want polls to be there just to get votes, and that discussion needs to take place first. I think I could throw one up now though.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Morwereth am 15. Jan 2016, 23:22

Zitat von: Elite KryPtik am 15. Jan 2016, 19:19

Morwereth, Welcome to the forums! I'm glad you agree, if more guests would join in on the conversation and reveal their thoughts we might get a better idea of how many people want a better Rohan late game. Thanks for the post!

My pleasure  :)

Zitat von: Melkor Bauglir am 15. Jan 2016, 19:30

but because I see no point in explaining my point if the response is getting told precisely why my opinion (better: my arguments) is (are) wrong. This is not meant as an offense, but I seriously do not enjoy this way of discussing. ;)

Whatever we suggest in this thread, Edain Team will say last word eventually. So I think nobody actually wants to "hurt" someone else or "suppress" someone's opinion here. Discussing about who is right or wrong is pointless in my opinion. Everybody have their own right and wrong things about game. Discussion should be more than "this is right, this is wrong".

About my previous idea,

Theoden's Glorious Charge is the core of Rohan's late game at the moment (I consider you keep him alive until he is level 10  :D). Developing late game strategy with using 1 hero is a bit lame. Thats why I thought players should have another option to develop strategy.

Buffing another hero wouldn't solve all problems of course. People often focus on Theoden to cut his leadership, same can happen to Eomer as well. Also Rohan needs mass slayer rather than one more unit supporter.

If Team doesn't want this buff accesible via spellbook, we should focus on upgrades. Perhaps player would access it in stables just like Horseman Shield. Like Isengard's blood wargs in warg pit. Player should research arsenal to get it.

About idea of upgrade discount from multible amories, I think building more than one armory would be risky. Because Rohan doesn't have anything like Gondor's blacksmith, Isengard's furnace and Lorien's forge. Armories don't produce any resources.

My second idea is this new upgrade should be accesible via outpost. I don't say much about outpost because it is kind of off topic but Hamman's great harvest can be accesible via outpost as well if we get big-village concept.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Jan 2016, 00:36

I think that right and just considerations have been made basically by anyone, here.

As some people already wrote, there is not, theoretically, a definitive end in a reasonable and ordered debate, or even a final 'showdown' between different sides to determine who is right or wrong, since the Edain Team takes into consideration almost anything suggested and eventually decides about what can be used or not, whether one side is prominent to the other or not in a discussion.

Nevertheless, it's also true that threads can't become endless replies by two or more specific people, especially if the matters involved deal with very personal impressions, experiences or, why not, advices that one user might want to share with another one.
Therefore, in this last case it's definitely recommended the usage of PMs to sort discussions out, also to have a more personal and private space rather than the public threads of the Edain Community.

Having said that, I think that more opinions from other people are definitely welcome, but I also personally appreciate the intention of Elite of synthesising the main aspects of his proposal in the initial post  :)

Regarding the poll, I think that this thread has clearly reached the 'requested premises' of completeness, interest and details to start a poll.
Just, if I may give an advice, I would choose wise and limited options in order to be the least dispersive possible, as it often happens with many and not always necessary choices in polls.

Ok, I will change the topic of the thread as you wish.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 16. Jan 2016, 00:58

Thanks a bunch DieWalkure :)

I'll be organizing the superpost later on tonight, after supper.

EDIT: Cancel that, I'll be doing it in the morning. Blame Third Age Total War invasion script, I've fought off about 11 different enemy armies with only 1 stack myself. Its tedious work.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Draco100000 am 16. Jan 2016, 11:48

So at the final, the problem is that right now a caval based armie is not enough tanky or powerfull to deal with LG armies, even fully upgraded.

I wold say another thing about rohan: while other factions get an enormous reward for maintain a good map controll ( isengard good uruks, upgrades) Dwarves ( production of veterans, upgrades) Gondor( accesible heroes, upgrades) Rohan actually have nothing. You cannot get acces to a better roster. I think the problem of rohan is the low number of different units it has. So my suggestion would be add new units to rohan, LG units.
This units can be caval or infantry, no matter actually. The main point is give rohan a reward to its offensive gameplay. because while other factions can get enormous powerfull armies, rohan can only choose between Peasants, 3 units of westfold and light caval. And thats so bad thought. Also the acces to the upgrades, because they are so expensive, it is only possible in lategame. If you wanna make a EG-MG rohan based, you should also give cheaper upgrades to peasants and/or caval. Anyway, rohan needs a change, because for now, playing as rohan is like a handicap, and it isnt at all fun in some cases.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 16. Jan 2016, 19:18

EDIT: Added poll, changed first post for new readers.

My Ideas: Firstly, to increase the cost of Royal Breeding and decrease the cost of Summon Galadhrim, to 6 and 3 respectively, and flip their spots in the spellbook, while also decreasing the cost of The 3 Hunters to 6 points to make sure the spellbook is balanced. Also, if the team thinks it would be better, perhaps the Royal Breeding power should be put on the right side of the spellbook and The 3 Hunters on left, so that people don't always go left for Ents. Now, the Royal Breeding power in this situation would be made much stronger, granting 50% health, armor, and 50% less trample revenge damage from pikes, and finally it would give 200% less trample deceleration. The idea here is that with this, Rohans cavalry could do some epic charges and trample for much longer periods of time, while taking less damage, to help them survive long enough to actually do some damage against the late game pike spam of Isengard, Dwarves and Gondor. Now obviously, none of these stats are final, and the team has the last word.

My second idea is that since the heroes of Rohan are likely riding Mearas Horses, they should have better natural speed, trample damage and less trample deceleration than any other mounted hero in the game, besides Gandalf. Therefore I would propose to increase their trample damage by at least 50%, and their trample deceleration should be much slower, and speed much higher. Mearas are the most incredible horses in Middle Earth, and I feel this is not accurately represented at the moment.

Finally, I had a minor idea to add on to Hamans idea of an economy upgrade, to give Rohan a new building for economy upgrades and let them unlock a couple of different upgrades, 1 for Flour Mills 1 for Stud Farms.

Hamans Ideas: His first idea was to buff Rohans economy by adding economy upgrades to the fortress after Théoden is cured, and allowing Rohan to get upgrade discounts if they buy more armories. His next idea was to increase the strength of Spear Throwers against heavy units such as Veterans and Tower Guards. Thirdly, he proposed that my idea for Royal Breeding should be made a standard upgrade at the stables or armory, unlocked after Théoden is cured, and to replace the 3 point Royal Breeding power with something else. Finally, he proposed that Rohan should get some defensive upgrades late game, such as Fire Arrows for their towers.

Django suggested that the strength of Rohirrim Archers against pikes should be increased, but that their weakness to archers should also be increased.

Elendils Cousin and Mandos both suggested to make the Galadhrim Summon permanent, except for Haldir.

Morwereth suggested to increase Eomers Strength late game, and redo his abilities to either be more Unit Supporter of Mass Slayer oriented, instead of a mix of the 2.

Draco100000 suggested adding some new late game units, either heavy infantry or cavalry, to help Rohans late game from gaining map control. He also suggested that some kind of upgraded discount should be added, but wasn't specific about it.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 20. Jan 2016, 01:45

I as well feel that Rohan lacks something in the Late Game which can't be compensated with Cavalry even though Rohan is basically a Cavalry oriented Faction and the reason about that is that Rohan is not known for having Heavy Armored Knight Type of a Cavalry but rather Swift and deadly Light Armored one ! :-)

And because of all that in my eyes I believe that the key to giving better options for Rohan in Late Game will be good Infantry Units with some limited slightly more Armored Cavalry may be! :-) And I think the Westfold Units will do the job about that.

What I mean is that each of the Three Rohan Captains should be able to summon up to 3 Max of each Westfold Unit .For instance Erkebrand could he able to Summon up to 3 Westfold Swordsman because we knoe that in thr Book he brought Infantry Reinforcements and he can also become a full fledged Hero while the other 2 can stay Captain Role with 1-2 more Abilities and each of them to Summon Max 3 of the other Units!? Of course they will summon only 1 Battalion at a time with some Cool down to the Ability.:-)

What you guys think about that!?I just think it will be a good way to fill the need of Rohan and use its own Lore Based Units with somewhat better stats too.:-)

Greetings and best regards from the Lord of the Iron Hills! :-)

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 20. Jan 2016, 02:04

I'm going to argue that Rohan didn't have any heavy armored horse, just because they didn't have any at the Pelennor Fields doesn't mean they had none at all. Théoden mustered a large force very quickly, with more time he could have equipped his men a lot better. Additionally, the riders had some heavy scalemail and used horse shields, which both significantly reduce the danger of pikes and arrows.

The team has already rejected the idea of making Erkenbrand a full fledged hero, so that's not likely going to happen.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 20. Jan 2016, 02:17

Well I agree about that!But still I doubt they had Gondor Type Cavalry and yet I think it is something that can be explored further,by making some more Heavy Armored Cavalry besides the Royal Guards and buffing a little the Westfold Cavalry !

Well even if Erkebrand is not going to be a full fledged Hero I think he too can get 1-2 additional Abilities and still the idea about limited Westfold Units to 3 or may be even 4 can be a good solution for Rohan! :-)

Greetings!

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: makis89 am 20. Jan 2016, 11:59

Give Rohan an economy boost either by a new outpost or an economy upgrade is a good idea cause it's poor in lategame...and in my opinion spear throwers have to change a little either by buffing them or give them another role because nobody use them
 
Greetings

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Saeros am 20. Jan 2016, 12:30

This idea might be changing the way Rohan stands in the game, but I think it might solve the late game thing..
Consider removing the 3 captains from the Assembly Point,but allowing the recruitment of the wastfold infantry units with no limitations since they are more powerfull and far nicer than the peasants, in a cost of about 500- 600 gp.
Place the 10 point power as an outpost but the upgrades researched in it should affect all Rohhirim on the map (this idea is not mine so I pay my dues to the people behind this)
And finally place Gandalf the white along with Erkembrand and 3 battalions of the Westfold cavalry in the 10 point power to follow the lore in the Two Towers and the decisive turn in the Battle of Helm's Deep.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Walküre am 20. Jan 2016, 13:17

Zitat von: Saeros am 20. Jan 2016, 12:30

This idea might be changing the way Rohan stands in the game, but I think it might solve the late game thing..
Consider removing the 3 captains from the Assembly Point,but allowing the recruitment of the wastfold infantry units with no limitations since they are more powerfull and far nicer than the peasants, in a cost of about 500- 600 gp.
Place the 10 point power as an outpost but the upgrades researched in it should affect all Rohhirim on the map (this idea is not mine so I pay my dues to the people behind this)
And finally place Gandalf the white along with Erkembrand and 3 battalions of the Westfold cavalry in the 10 point power to follow the lore in the Two Towers and the decisive turn in the Battle of Helm's Deep.

Would you mind if I merged this thread with the current Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas thread?  :)

There are currently 4, and probably more, topics that already deal with Rohan's late game, it would just be too dispersive and redundant creating other multiple ones, which could also lead the discussion to be more fragmented and difficult to follow.
There is also a poll in that section, you thus might find other possible solutions in those choices or in continuing the discussion there.

MERGED with: http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32476.msg426130.html#msg426130

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Saeros am 20. Jan 2016, 17:00

Would you mind if I merged this thread with the current Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas thread?  :)

There are currently 4, and probably more, topics that already deal with Rohan's late game, it would just be too dispersive and redundant creating other multiple ones, which could also lead the discussion to be more fragmented and difficult to follow.
There is also a poll in that section, you thus might find other possible solutions in those choices or in continuing the discussion there.

You did well, I don't know how to do it myself..
I hope my ideas would give a small solution in this topic.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Walküre am 20. Jan 2016, 17:15

Zitat von: Saeros am 20. Jan 2016, 17:00

Would you mind if I merged this thread with the current Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas thread?  :)

There are currently 4, and probably more, topics that already deal with Rohan's late game, it would just be too dispersive and redundant creating other multiple ones, which could also lead the discussion to be more fragmented and difficult to follow.
There is also a poll in that section, you thus might find other possible solutions in those choices or in continuing the discussion there.

You did well, I don't know how to do it myself..
I hope my ideas would give a small solution in this topic.

I don't think that you, normal users, have the possibility of doing it yourselves.
Regardless of that, don't worry, I'm here exactly to help  :)

Sure, your contribution will be part of the general discussion and will enrich it as well.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 20. Jan 2016, 17:53

Zitat von: Saeros am 20. Jan 2016, 17:00

You did well, I don't know how to do it myself..

Zitat von: DieWalküre am 20. Jan 2016, 17:15

I don't think that you, normal users, have the possibility of doing it yourselves.
Regardless of that, don't worry, I'm here exactly to help  :)

https://i.imgflip.com/xo9y5.jpg

Zitat von: Saeros am 20. Jan 2016, 12:30

This idea might be changing the way Rohan stands in the game, but I think it might solve the late game thing..
Consider removing the 3 captains from the Assembly Point,but allowing the recruitment of the wastfold infantry units with no limitations since they are more powerfull and far nicer than the peasants, in a cost of about 500- 600 gp.
Place the 10 point power as an outpost but the upgrades researched in it should affect all Rohhirim on the map (this idea is not mine so I pay my dues to the people behind this)
And finally place Gandalf the white along with Erkembrand and 3 battalions of the Westfold cavalry in the 10 point power to follow the lore in the Two Towers and the decisive turn in the Battle of Helm's Deep.

I don't think that these ideas are the best way to help Rohan.

Having the Westfold units trainable at that price at the assembly point would make Rohan's early game too strong in my opinion, and I don't think the team wanted the Captains to be changed like that.  Don't quote me on it though.

I personally don't agree that the 10 point power Camp should be an outpost. If all the idea is to make all cavalry stronger after getting the upgrades at this outpost, then I don't agree that Rohan should need an outpost like this to get those upgrades.  And While I agree that Gandalf and Erkenbrands saving Helms Deep is decisive, that power is just giving Rohan more cavalry for a short time, which doesn't really solve any problem.

Ideas are always appreciated though, so I do encourage people to post them like you did.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Slawek56703 am 20. Jan 2016, 18:55

I have another idea of improving Rohan Late Game.
Now, Assembly Point could provide Rohan resources and the building itself could gain level 3. At level 2, the building provides Elfhelm and Grimbold. Elfhelm provides warriors with swords, Grimbold provides pikemen. That would be the Mid game.
And level 3 Assembly Point gives you access to Erkenbrand which provides Cavalry. What do you think it would be even a partial solution to the outpost for Rohan.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 20. Jan 2016, 19:16

Zitat von: Slawek56703 am 20. Jan 2016, 18:55

I have another idea of improving Rohan Late Game.
Now, Assembly Point could provide Rohan resources and the building itself could gain level 3. At level 2, the building provides Elfhelm and Grimbold. Elfhelm provides warriors with swords, Grimbold provides pikemen. That would be the Mid game.
And level 3 Assembly Point gives you access to Erkenbrand which provides Cavalry. What do you think it would be even a partial solution to the outpost for Rohan.

I don't see how this would improve Rohan's late game.  If anything, it seems to limits to limit them earlier on, and limiting the captains to only have 1 option on what to summon.

An assembly point producing resources doesn't really make sense the way I see it.  And even if it did, it still costs 600 resources, so buying a farm would be smarter for resources anyways. 

Am I misinterpreting something you said? Because this suggestion seems to hinder Rohan more then help.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 20. Jan 2016, 20:00

Unless it pays off with more resources than a farm. His idea does hold something interesting, namely, making a certain building produce extra resources. Perhaps the Rohirrim Muster Camp could provide resources as well, for lategame?

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Slawek56703 am 20. Jan 2016, 20:19

I'll try to somehow improve this idea
So yes Elfhelm, Grimbold, Erkenbrand can do what they do now. I came up with this idea because Erkenbrand reminded me of cavalry Grimbold - brings pikemen (because he has a pike) and Elfhelm well the choice was clear. But if it is poor let it be as it is. Assembly point now costs 400. Shows how it looks:
Level 1 - Not recruits units can defend itself (thanks to the archer who is at the top)
Level 2 - recruits Grimbold and Elfhelm (Units which they recall have heavy armor) (recall only infantry)
Level 3 - Recruits additionally Erkenbrand who brink cavalry and allows Grimbold and Elfhelm brink cavalry.
(Archer at the top of the building since then has flaming an arrow for a better defense or changes archer on ranged Spearman
@ Odysseus
I think Rohirrim Muster Camp can provide reasorces too this is 10pp speel after all yeah
Edit : You cant upgrade Assembly point by himself you need to wait till it ugprade of course building can give more resources with every level up and little faster noramlly i think this is every 6s later can provide every 5s (amount of money

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Saeros am 20. Jan 2016, 20:41

I don't think that these ideas are the best way to help Rohan.

Having the Westfold units trainable at that price at the assembly point would make Rohan's early game too strong in my opinion, and I don't think the team wanted the Captains to be changed like that.  Don't quote me on it though.

I personally don't agree that the 10 point power Camp should be an outpost. If all the idea is to make all cavalry stronger after getting the upgrades at this outpost, then I don't agree that Rohan should need an outpost like this to get those upgrades.  And While I agree that Gandalf and Erkenbrands saving Helms Deep is decisive, that power is just giving Rohan more cavalry for a short time, which doesn't really solve any problem.

Ideas are always appreciated though, so I do encourage people to post them like you did.

I won't say anything about Boromir..  8-)

What if the troops of Westfold to be recruited only after Theoden has been cured? Besides their price at 600 gp per battalion is not low, especially if the Assembly Point needs money to allow the recruitment.
This will give the player the opportunity to make another strategy in order to diverse the pike spam problem that he/she will probably be facing playing as Rohan.

The idea of the outpost was derived by the members of the community which I liked pretty much, so that is why I thought of the 10 power point ability.
And it could be an army consisting of all the Westfold units not only riders.

I know this might not be a very popular idea, but it could give more depth in the way Rohan can defeat its enemies especially if this idea is enriched, or enriches some of the rest suggestions that have been made in this thread.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 20. Jan 2016, 21:32

I, personally, also disagree with this idea, and to my knowledge the team has already rejected making the summonable Military Camp an outpost. I'm pretty sure they also rejected making any of the westfold units recruitable normally.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 20. Jan 2016, 22:17

Well I am not a fan of making them Recruitable too,the Westfold Units should be Summoned 1 Battalion at a time by their respective Captain with a cool Down! :-)

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 20. Jan 2016, 22:52

Then what happens to the captain? They would become single units, basically heroes? The team has already also said no to that idea.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 20. Jan 2016, 23:07

Ah you got me there!My apologize I completely forgot that aspect of the Captains! :(

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Saeros am 20. Jan 2016, 23:11

to my knowledge the team has already rejected making the summonable Military Camp an outpost. I'm pretty sure they also rejected making any of the westfold units recruitable normally.

I did not know about that, so I understand your opinion in the topic.

Then what happens to the captain? They would become single units, basically heroes? The team has already also said no to that idea.

Well the idea was to remove them except Erkembrand who would be a summonable hero, but since the idea has no funs I will let it down myself.  xD

@Lord Dain I have nothing more to say to your opinions but I'm glad you gave an answer and the same to Hamanathnath

Thanks for the replies people!

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 20. Jan 2016, 23:12

1 thing the team has said they would be happy to do is give all 3 captains some new abilities, if you want to make your way to that thread and post there they may take your suggestions.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 21. Jan 2016, 13:52

I'm still a bit confused on how an assembly point can make resources.  Generally, a building that makes resources is something like a farm, mine, lumber camp, etc. They are buildings that can make something profitable.  I'm just confused on what an assembly point does to make money.

And I'm pretty sure Kry is right that the team doesn't want to allow Westfold units to be recruitable normally.

I would like to see the Rohan Captains to get some new abilities, as well as the option to gain levels.  Of course, that won't fix the problem with Rohan's late game by itself, but it would be cool to see.

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 21. Jan 2016, 14:31

How it makes Resourses indeed!? :) May be with some barter trades among the people who knows !  [ugly]

How about an Eastfold Outpost!? With somehow properly Eauped and Trainder Infantry Warriors and 1 Cavalry Unit or something like that!? :)

Titel: Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 22. Jan 2016, 00:09

Go to the outpost suggestion thread for Rohan, there's a bunch of ideas there already.