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[en] Edain Mod => [Edain] Suggestions => [Edain] Imladris Suggestions => Thema gestartet von: Lord of Mordor am 31. Jul 2016, 20:38

Titel: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Lord of Mordor am 31. Jul 2016, 20:38
In this thread, you can discuss balancing issues with the Imladris faction. If you feel a balance topic is so big it deserves its own thread, you're free to create one, but for smaller points this thread might be useful.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Sawman am 3. Aug 2016, 16:42
Hello there,

So after playing as and against imladris ai and non ai that they are pretty balanced IMO other than the lore masters and blade masters, both these units need to be toned down a bit.

I think this faction could use some improvements though after playing with them a bit.

1. Imladris probably has the worst spellbook in the game atm, it's just really underwhelming.

2. Some of the hero's are decent ciridan,the twins,glorfindel, but I think some could be looked at such as elrond, I think his abilities are fine the way they are but he just dies way to quickly so an armour or health increase would help with that and now arewen's abilities aren't terrible except her last one which is probably the worst tier 5 ability in the game for a hero, I was fine with strider in 3.8 I thought it was really cool but this ability is worthless compared to that. And then there's gildor that's all I'm going to say

Well that's my thoughts.
Cheers
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 3. Aug 2016, 17:50
I personally find Imladris' spellbook very effective and suited for the faction: that is, it's well centred on healing features and supporting properties (especially, via the summoning of precious allies). I think it's probably even better than Lothlórien's. Nevertheless, as you may have already read here or in other topics, every spellbook of each faction is likely to be subjected to an overhaul in the future. Particularly, speaking about Imladris, in order to improve Light of Aman much more conceptually and, maybe, to replace completely some other spells.

Regarding the heroes, the faction design of Rivendell was fashioned so that you should use any hero in combination with the others, as a sum of different elements that ultimately gives you the proper strength and strategy you need. Just think about Elrond and Arwen: their most prominent powers are supportive and aimed to aid the other heroes and all the troops of yours as well, enabling you to advance safely. In fact, I often play with them this way, and their powerful cooperation with the soldiers results in an almost unstoppable force (not to mention the addition of the lore-masters' magical abilities).

Elrond is very similar to Galadriel, and you thus ought to use him as the supportive hero he exactly is (among the other units). With the sole difference that Galadriel is extremely focused on ranged support, while the Lord of Imladris helps his army directly in battle with a warrior/general-type approach.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 3. Aug 2016, 18:23
What exactly do you want to tone down with lore masters and blade masters? A bit more elaboration would be great. Blade masters are pretty nuts, lore masters I'm quite fine with though.

1. Imladris probably has the worst spellbook in the game atm, it's just really underwhelming.
Imladris Spellbook is fantastic. The first two rows are the strongest in the game.
-> Please elaborate, statements like "this is the worst" don't help.

I agree that the flood is a bit underwhelming and I don't like the eagles either. But eagles are being looked at anyway, from what I know, which leaves the flood, which just needs to do a bit more damage. No need to instagib everything, but atm it is underwhelming. Still can't beat Loriens's spellbook though :P

Gildor is great - best scouting ability in the game, can creep trolls and offers crowdcontrol at level three already.
Elrond is more durable than Gandalf. He even gets better armour at level five. Maybe pay a bit more attention? ;)
Healing spells are quite strong on Imladris units since their health is so high. No need to change it imho, Arwen is strong enough already.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 3. Aug 2016, 18:58
Zitat
Imladris Spellbook is fantastic. The first two rows are the strongest in the game.
-> Please elaborate, statements like "this is the worst" don't help.
Proceeds to do the same thing by not elaborating :P. You have to give concrete examples on each spell in these two rows if you want to give true elaboration. You did on the healing though so good job mate, keep it up ;).

To be frank, all this talk about which spellbooks are bad or good is utter nonesense. All spellbooks have strengths and weaknesses and you have to tailor your choices to the situation. This is strengthened by the fact that most factions have very similar spellbooks, with horns, land spells, arrow volleys and weather spells etc., and that the similarity is thankfully somewhat contested by variations and variants in effects of essentially the same spell(s) in design. However, what you could say is that some spells are not performing in their intended context. Like the eagles, or the recently removed barricade spell for Mordor. I can't wait for the future spellbook tweaks, they will greatly shake up the current matchups, I am certain of it.

If Gildor would ever need a buff, which I highly doubt, I would personally like to see his cost reduced from 250 to 200, and nothing else. His spells are very powerful if used correctly, the only relatively questionable spell being the Elven cloak, but basically a Palantir vision spell without having to spend any Spellpoints is so huge (In competitive play, vision is everything, like battlefield intelligence in real life), and it scales very well into the game. Any person claiming that vision is underwhelming has no idea what they are talking about :P.

Finally, what if we switch the Blademasters with the banner upgrade? So Blademasters at level 3, and the banners at level 2? I think that would solve the apparent issue. You can counter spam factions with Dunedain (the outpost itself being awesome already) and cavalry.

To be honest, Imladris is arguably the most balanced faction Edain has released so far, clear powerspikes in the game, their strengths offset by low model count, a spellbook that is almost perfectly alligned with Imladris' playstyle, and the list could go on. Lorewise, I personally preferred the old concept, with them being unable to level and stuff and all veteran-like, but this, in turn, resulted in critical gameplay hiccups that had to be fixed, so I'd like to say that the current design is probably better gameplay-wise, and easier to adjust when something has to be improved.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Ealendril der Dunkle am 3. Aug 2016, 19:01
Zitat
To be honest, Imladris is arguably the most balanced faction Edain has released so far, clear powerspikes in the game, their strengths offset by low model count, a spellbook that is almost perfectly alligned with Imladris' playstyle, and the list could go on
Thanks for the praise! Great to hear that. xD
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Sawman am 3. Aug 2016, 19:20
nothing wrong with lore masters? Are you mad? let me just STUN your entire army 4 times real quick including heros btw while I slaughter your army, nothing wrong at all am I right?

anyways I probably should elaborate so for the spell book the hobbits for there power point cost don't amount to other 2 point summons such as the hobbits for arnor or the orcs of mount gram for angmar

bombidal could have a little more health, dies pretty quick

last alliance isn't that great for the time that you have them, they just don't get a lot done.

gildors first ability is all he is useful for where as other scouts can be useful late game

the armour buff that Elrond gets was meant to be included when I said he still dies to quick and sure he has more health than Gandalf but Gandalf has abilities to keep enemies away where as Elrond has one to do that and for his whirlwind hes got to be fighting for it to be of any affect

arewen is still bad her heal is the only thing shes got going for her and in case you haven't noticed asfolf is exactly the same as glorfidels mounted ability and how do you think her last ability is good its like a worse version of the old Denethor captain and she has to be level 8 to even use it 


Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 3. Aug 2016, 20:22
nothing wrong with lore masters? Are you mad? let me just STUN your entire army 4 times real quick including heros btw while I slaughter your army, nothing wrong at all am I right?
There are four different lore masters with eight different abilities, six different possible combinations who again have a unique ability. So we're at ten different units with 14 different abilities now. You sound as if lore masters in general are broken, which they are not. As far as I can tell (because you did not specify whatsoever in neither of your posts), you're talking about the air-light-combo and their special ability? Clarification would be great here so I can actually give you an answer. Thanks a lot for staying polite.


Zitat
Imladris Spellbook is fantastic. The first two rows are the strongest in the game.
-> Please elaborate, statements like "this is the worst" don't help.
Proceeds to do the same thing by not elaborating :P.
Or maybe I'm just repeating something to show what I'm talking about. ;)


Arwen is a decent fighter, has access to a horse, can heal and buff nearby heroes and can make enemies flee. For a hero so cheap I'd say she's pretty damn good, yeah. Allowing your units to permanently heal is just the icing on the cake.

So when Elrond is already one of the tankier heroes in the game with his armour boost he still dies too quick for your liking? I just don't get that, he is supposed to be a mass slayer after all. Being more or less vulnerable to hero killers is basically part of the job description. And units shouldn't catch him anyway, he's got a horse and his flood does knockback...
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 3. Aug 2016, 20:42
Zitat
Or maybe I'm just repeating something to show what I'm talking about. ;)
<3
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 4. Aug 2016, 01:28
Might as well jump into this discussion. 

The Lore-Masters have the potential of being very problematic.  If a person only buys 1 or 2, and doesn't go for a Combo that is too strong together, they are fine.  But in numbers, they can make fighting Imladris incredibly difficult, if not impossible.

I really like the abilities the Lore-Master have, but what you have to understand is that Lore-Masters don't have a limit past their argueably low command point cost.  The potential if having an any of those abilties used 4-5 or even more times every battle is too much, such as an incredible amount of heals for Water Lore-Masters, and especially the Speed Boost and Knockback Immunity for the Wind Lore Masters, allowing you to make escapes from spells like Army of the Dead whenever you want. 

And that doesn't even count the Combo Abilities, which are some of the strongest in the game, with Light-Wind and Earth-Wind being the Strongest in my opinion.

I think making the Lore-Masters cost 90 command points each, as well as nerfing certain Lore-Master abilties, will make them a lot more balanced. 

Blade-Masters are definitely way too strong right now.  Lowering their damage and making the AoE only hit basic units should fix them though.  Nothing more to say about them.

And other then that, Imladris is an incredibly balanced faction in my opinion, maybe leaning on the under-powered side in certain aspects.  Credit to the Edain Team for making the pretty much all the units pretty much perfectly balanced compared to other factions. 

Just a few other things though:

I agree with Sawman that Imladris has the least powerful Spellbook in the game currently.  And that doesn't mean that the Spellbook is outright bad, it's just less good then others. 

-The Hobbit summon is very underwhelming compared to other summons.  They are okay when they switch to Rocks, But either way they so quick to everything.  I think this is the opportunity to add Biblo to Imladris.  Not only could he make this summon better (Maybe with a leadership), but this could be the best way to implement Bilbo into the faction.

-Tom Bombadil dies to quick too everything.  Make him harder to kill and he will be better.

-The Last Alliance is slightly too weak in terms of strength, and goes away way too quickly.  I think giving the summon 1 group of Imladris Archers, which are in the summon if I remember correctly, and doubling the timer will make the Summon much better.

-The Flood just needs to do more damage, or at least have some sort of other effect.

Arwen's last two abilities really need to be changed in my opinion.  Noro Lim, Asfaloth is too similar to Glorfindel's Wind Runner, and Blessed Banner is incredibly underwhelming.  I think Blessed Banner would work much better if it was similar to Eomer's Debuff, but instead of Debuffing, it would place the Banner on the Floor which would Buff/Health your units.

And lastly, I think making Ranger Upgrades only allowed to be bought while Halbarad is nearby is a bit weird and inconvenient.

And that's it.  Great work on the faction so far.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 4. Aug 2016, 01:43

Agree on all points here except that Hobbit Summon is weak. They can DESTROY heroes if you target them with rocks. I definitely think it would be cool to have a Bilbo summon added in to it, but as they stand they are not weak if you use them as a hero killer.

Also, just reading the earlier posts Elendil, you started off against Sawman in a perceivably "sassy" kind of a manner, another term might be know-it-all. It might not have seemed this way to you, not being a native english speaker, but it does read that way for us. That of course still does not justify a rude response, so I'll just say keep it polite for all parties :)
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Aug 2016, 02:17
Also, just reading the earlier posts Elendil, you started off against Sawman in a perceivably "sassy" kind of a manner, another term might be know-it-all. It might not have seemed this way to you, not being a native english speaker, but it does read that way for us. That of course still does not justify a rude response, so I'll just say keep it polite for all parties :)

I personally don't see anything that negative, know-it-all, slightly provocative or harsh in Elendil's response. Of course, heated debates can always take place and 'spice up' the dynamics of the forum a bit, but this is not something forbidden by any rule: that's why I honestly decided not to intervene to calm down the waters a bit (as Moderators are supposed to do). In addition, I would say that Sawman's initial post was not so much a good start to develop a discussion from, given that constructive criticism was not provided other than 'this is the worst...' or 'that is totally worthless'. But I am nonetheless very pleased to see that he took time to illustrate his considerations in better terms (the forum exactly enables anyone to do so).

Also, I regard the whole 'language issue' not relevant too. Yes, we are not all English native speakers, but I'm quite sure that many of us are acquainted enough with forum-related customs and manners to discern the difference between being polite and being rude, and to provide reasonable arguments in our replies (especially, members of the internal staff). If this may ease your concern a bit, I will continue to follow this topic carefully as I do with everyone else (and restore the order in case it were needed)  :)

P.S. I took the liberty to use the spoiler feature for your long quotation, as the rules often recommend.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 4. Aug 2016, 02:22
P.S. I took the liberty to use the spoiler feature for your long quotation, as the rules often recommend.

Thats my bad forgetting to use the quote feature. As for my above post, that was just me explaining why Sawman got a little heated, because from my perspective while reading Elendil's first reply there were a couple points that seemed off. The biggest one being the "Maybe pay a bit more attention ;)" with the inclusion of the winky face sounds very sassy or "know-it-allish" as I said. I was just trying to clarify what might have frustrated Sawman. Regardless I'm quite sure it shall remain civil, no need to worry :)
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Amandil7 am 4. Aug 2016, 03:41
nothing wrong with lore masters? Are you mad? let me just STUN your entire army 4 times real quick including heros btw while I slaughter your army, nothing wrong at all am I right?

anyways I probably should elaborate so for the spell book the hobbits for there power point cost don't amount to other 2 point summons such as the hobbits for arnor or the orcs of mount gram for angmar

bombidal could have a little more health, dies pretty quick

last alliance isn't that great for the time that you have them, they just don't get a lot done.

gildors first ability is all he is useful for where as other scouts can be useful late game

the armour buff that Elrond gets was meant to be included when I said he still dies to quick and sure he has more health than Gandalf but Gandalf has abilities to keep enemies away where as Elrond has one to do that and for his whirlwind hes got to be fighting for it to be of any affect

arewen is still bad her heal is the only thing shes got going for her and in case you haven't noticed asfolf is exactly the same as glorfidels mounted ability and how do you think her last ability is good its like a worse version of the old Denethor captain and she has to be level 8 to even use it


I actually agree with most of what you said, Imladris heroes aren't very useful or have as clear defined roles (compared to other factions) and why waste precious resources on them when they die within seconds esp Elrond and a so called Tank like Glorfindel. Gildor is only useful for his first ability, I'd pick Merry/Pippin over him since he dies to goblin creeps.

Loremasters are a menace when fighting the AI, they come in huge numbers and quickly disorient any defense you might have.

As for the Spellbook, I think the first two tier powers are good, the last two are a bit problematic. I usually just go for light of aman, because Bombadil isn't worth his cost and Flying units seem to serve no purpose in this mod. Flood needs more damage against buildings and Last Alliance needs to last longer.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Draco100000 am 4. Aug 2016, 12:07
It is strange no one is complaining about the fact that the Duneadain Camp is the most worth-cost building in the game. I mean, you can recruit ridicolously cheap elites, in a ridicolouysly cheap outpost. ( It should be balanced because standard units cost more)....

Why I should buy any standard unit more than blademasters( Incredible area dmg) and eventually veterans of the Last aliance for doing my game, when I can rush this outpost, with the best defense, healing and very good recruitment rate. I feel weaker the standard recruitment of Imladris and I dont know, i dont feel good having to get an outpost to get my average strenght. All others factions ( except rohan) dont need an outpost to get their usual strenght.


Imladris is a faction that changes a lot the game mechanics, but I thought you would change more the lore masters, this is just like 3.8.1 but with 2 guys dead per battallion, still very very powerfull, combos still being OP and obviously the virtually gg in Lategame with Upgrades, veterans, glorfindel and loremasters is secured.( 1 solution would be consider them as werewolves or ents 1000 cost)


Amazing update but needs some more polishment, i feel imladris as counterpart of Rohan. Rohan strong in early, outpost dependant in Late. Imladris strong in Late, outpost dependant in Early. PD: I dont understand 1 battallion at start.. ( If they would be blademasters it would be fine as strong as they are now  :D)

About heros, well I dont care about them so much ( im not feeling that bad Imladris heros, they are just as weak as all heros) except Gildor, that I find very good.... too good. The song is the best support abilitie I have seen, combined with his tactical vision... Probably this guy  combined with the Imladris feeling in General, is making me loving this Faction more in this version than in the previous one.

 As always great job and keep releaqsing amazing stuff ;)
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Ealendril der Dunkle am 4. Aug 2016, 15:26
Zitat
cheap elites
Dunedain aren't eite units, they are regular units. Every elven unit is defined as elite. ;)

Zitat
I actually agree with most of what you said, Imladris heroes aren't very useful or have as clear defined roles (compared to other factions)
Of course they have defined roles, I cant follow you. Arwen is a supporter, Glorfindel tank, Twins heroslayer (one of the best in game), Gildor is a scout, Halbarad is a dunedain supporter and Elrond is a mix between massslayer and tank -> as suggested by our fans.

Zitat
So when Elrond is already one of the tankier heroes in the game with his armour boost he still dies too quick for your liking? I just don't get that, he is supposed to be a mass slayer after all. Being more or less vulnerable to hero killers is basically part of the job description. And units shouldn't catch him anyway, he's got a horse and his flood does knockback...
+1

Zitat
I personally don't see anything that negative, know-it-all, slightly provocative or harsh in Elendil's response
+1
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 4. Aug 2016, 19:04
@Draco: Imladris only has one batallion at the start to stop you from just running over to your enemy and pooping on everything he has - we tried several things during the beta phase and this solution works out really well, I think. I have to say though, I don't think Imladris absolutely needs an outpost early on, I've done quite well without one^^
The amount of archers defending the outpost just make it way too strong defensively and too good overall, so it's never a bad choice really, since it also produces money and can heal.


As for my above post, that was just me explaining why Sawman got a little heated, because from my perspective while reading Elendil's first reply there were a couple points that seemed off. The biggest one being the "Maybe pay a bit more attention ;)" with the inclusion of the winky face sounds very sassy or "know-it-allish" as I said.
That certainly wasn't my intention, I put the wink there for that reason: to make it sound not as harsh.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Amandil7 am 4. Aug 2016, 23:34

Zitat
Of course they have defined roles, I cant follow you. Arwen is a supporter, Glorfindel tank, Twins heroslayer (one of the best in game), Gildor is a scout, Halbarad is a dunedain supporter and Elrond is a mix between massslayer and tank -> as suggested by our fans.


Forgive me for saying this, but as an English speaker (and a psychiatrist in training!) I agree with Elite KryPtik. Every time I say something here I feel like I'm attacked or pounced upon. Isn't the whole point of these forums to get feedback? The response is usually so weird that you think twice about even carrying on the conversation (and I'm not talking about Elendil). Just the tone is a little stand-offish sometimes. We all love the mod and are trying to be constructive here. :)
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 5. Aug 2016, 01:27
Most Germans are quite direct usually, they don't beat around the bush. Just keep in mind that the tone of debate employed by the majority of the team and the German users is not intended as denigrating in any form, even if you feel it does. No hard feelings, right?

A debate tends to get people excited more often than not, so do not fear the pouncing nor the assaults, you must never relent :P!
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 5. Aug 2016, 04:41
Isn't the whole point of these forums to get feedback?

No, it's not just that. Getting or giving feedback is a part of a more comprehensive sum of many other factors. Not only does the forum ensure people to express themselves, but it also encourages them to debate among each other and to exchange opinions (particularly, when it comes to finding a compromise out of different proposals or polishing existing concepts). In another perspective, these features can also lead to heated discussions or little 'skirmishes' among the very users (something that one could easily see as a harsh and very confrontational climate throughout some threads).

I believe that the latter aspect is eventually as fundamental as the other ones indeed, in order to keep Modding Union alive; the challenge is rather how to control it and turn it into constructive activity, lest everything degenerate in open clashes. Furthermore, instead of weird or bitter replies, I sincerely think that what often causes resentment is the fact that some people find it hard to accept that their suggestions/remarks could be countered by other people and also proven inappropriate for the game (very direct answers that are usually triggered by not so consistent posts, of a similar kind of the initial comment that started this debate). I'm not referring to you specifically, but to the general experience I have had so far as a Moderator.

I'm well aware that this might probably be one of the most difficult characteristics to get acquainted with, but it's nonetheless vital to the forum as well. On a higher level, Administrators and Moderators have in fact the authority to censure people and to reject proposals whenever they deem it necessary (that is, closing topics or delete comments). One can't thus expect every single post to be accepted anyway.

As Odysseus suggested, you shouldn't let criticism (when it's reasonable) constrain your will of participating in debates: getting used to presenting ideas, defending them and wisely replying to other people's responses will toughen you up concretely and it will certainly give you overall much more confidence in regards of your personal forum attendance. Keep also in mind that insults and a manifestly aggressive behaviour are against the rules and so will be dealt with accordingly  :)

Most Germans are quite direct usually, they don't beat around the bush.

The English Community has had too its own renowned record in being brutally honest at times and setting up very 'dynamic' discussions  xD

Also, speaking about brutal (but needed) attitudes, I have to remind all of you that we are now clearly diverting too much from the topic of this thread. If anyone is willing to continue to discuss this theme, the Website Feedback board is the proper place (and I would be very pleased to join it too).
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: SP19XX am 12. Aug 2016, 19:08
So having played with / against Imladris quite a few times now I have to say the faction overall seems great in terms of balance baring a few issues here and there. The main one though I believe is Gildor.

The problem I find with Gildor is that as he is the weakest scout hero (in terms of combat) in the entire game right now being as he's the only exclusively ranged scout hero at present (barring Rumil however Orophin makes up for that). I think he should get a damage buff or some form of melee attack (perhaps he uses a melee weapon when he's locked in close combat as opposed to a direct method of melee similar to Denethor).

The main issue he also has when compared to the other scouts is that because he is in fact ranged unlike the others, who can gain access to their abilities quite quickly and become a combat force since they can creep alongside the starter units, and in all honesty, I find his abilities (barring his global reveal) to be well and truly underwhelming.

His Song loses a lot of it's potency because he will always be behind your force, meaning the slow down effect isn't going to do much unless enemies have pushed through to Gildor himself (though it is good for getting him out alive).

His arrow comes far too late (level 7, which as I outlined above is problematic when you take into account that Rivendell needs a lot more work than the other factions to even get it's ranged units out with a total cost of 2000, excluding Gildor's own cost and then a further 600 to even give Gildor some leveling support from the backline unless you manage to rush the dunedain, and even that still requires a minimum investment of 1400).

In comparison to the other scout heroes, Gildor tends to gain 1 level to their 2-4 from personal experience.


There's just one other thing I feel like I should address even though it's not a major issue, nor is it really required, but I personally feel that the cost of Rivendell's  Spearmen should be decreased to 500, perhaps at a slight decrease to their health as in this method it's at least viable to get a unit of them out on a 1k start to assist with creeping, while allowing an external farm to be created as well, since while most factions tend to focus their scout heroes in the early game, for the reasons outlined above, 99% of the time I don't find Gildor to even be worth recruiting until you have a level 2 barracks, and at that point his purpose is more or less gone.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 12. Aug 2016, 22:41
The problem I find with Gildor is that as he is the weakest scout hero (in terms of combat) in the entire game right now being as he's the only exclusively ranged scout hero at present (barring Rumil however Orophin makes up for that). I think he should get a damage buff or some form of melee attack (perhaps he uses a melee weapon when he's locked in close combat as opposed to a direct method of melee similar to Denethor).

The main issue he also has when compared to the other scouts is that because he is in fact ranged unlike the others, who can gain access to their abilities quite quickly and become a combat force since they can creep alongside the starter units, and in all honesty, I find his abilities (barring his global reveal) to be well and truly underwhelming.

His Song loses a lot of it's potency because he will always be behind your force, meaning the slow down effect isn't going to do much unless enemies have pushed through to Gildor himself (though it is good for getting him out alive).
Him being ranged is awesome for Imladris. He can kill trolls while your starting unit gets free settlements and/or kills an easy creep like orcs before destroying the troll creep.
The other two points I don't quite get tbh... did you ever try to, you know, push him up alongside your units? Because that solves your entire problem^^

He may be the weakest scout hero in terms of fighting, but he has the best scouting ability in the game and is arguably the best at supporting your units, too.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Sawman am 29. Aug 2016, 00:27
Imladris walls and gate seem to be very weak on their fortress compared to everyone else's walls, it take only 3 Gondor trebuchet shots to take down one segment of the wall where as other factions take a lot more, not only that by the time you take down one segment the other segments around it are already at half health because of the massive splash damage they take.

Rohan walls are harder to take down and they are made of wood :)

please add amour accordingly 

 
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Ealendril der Dunkle am 29. Aug 2016, 09:10
They have the same armor and health points.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 9. Sep 2016, 03:26
I hope Loremasters are nerfed in the next version, because they are too OP right now. I was playing a 4-Factions free for all, and the only factions left were my Imladris and another one. I had an 1000 command point fully upgraded army and I was destroying their castle, when Lore Masters happened, and I lost my whole army, just like that. Both Loremasters and Towers are too powerful right now. It's strange to see your enemy destroy your whole army and kill your Heroes just with Loremasters, catapults and towers.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 9. Sep 2016, 04:17
It's not that strange if you blob up your troops, which I presume is what happened. In almost all games I have ever watched, even the highest level in the olden BFME I and BFME II tournament days, even there, blobbing in some way occurs.

That said, Loremasters will probably be reworked in the future, as Ea mentioned some time ago. They are indeed overperforming.

Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 9. Sep 2016, 04:36
Blob up, like sending them one by one? Sorry if I'm wrong, I didn't know the meaning!

I sent most of them together, while a few were destroying an outpost. Those were the ones that survived at first, but the majority of the army got destroyed. I didn't have Arwen to support (I don't usually recruit her), so maybe that was one of the problems.

I'm happy to hear about Loremasters being probably reworked! I like using them, but it gets boring because they are so overpowered.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Tirano am 3. Dez 2016, 18:16
when a good player of Imladris start to spam swords since the beginning of the game don't matter the factions you play, you can´t fight your main force against his main force, and im cool with that, you dont need to fight all the time you can arras him and get more map control and then when you get more money igual the forces and win a fight... but the problem is when Imldris rush they libray and get the ability of speed, this added to the wind lord master ability make them insane fast, even more than cavalry and you cant run from them forcing you to lose the fight and probably the game (Consider that I omited all the slowdowns and stuns that habe the faction).

also i would like to add that the library is a little broken because when the library have all the upgrades give you 75 resources and in late game if you replacements all the farms for libraries it is insane the amount of money that you can get! 
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Sawman am 13. Dez 2016, 13:40
Imladris swords spam isn't hard to counter considering that all the other player needs to do is spam archers to counter it.

Imladris really struggles against factions who can get archers off the start from a barracks(angmar,mordor,And especially lothlorien) and then the rest of the factions it is fairly balanced between them. I think allowing Imladris to purchase archers off the start might fix this problem because chances are that your archers could counter or balance out the others archers.

  And as for the library 75 I think is the perfect number for the library at level 3 because you have to take into consideration that the total to get it level 3 is 3000 resources and you could spam them after that but I feel like Imladris needs that because they really don't have a good way to boost their eco

Another problem I have with imladris is their spell book, their tier 1 and 2 spell powers are good but the ones I have problems with are Tom,flood,and last alliance

Tom's problem is that he dies way to fast, don't get me wrong his stats are great but an increase in armour would probably fix this.

Floods problem is that it's only good on army of the dead and orcs, I think the ET tried to buff it but it wasn't enough

The last alliances problem is that it doesn't last long enough and that all the until are terrible late game and all the hero's except isldur are also terrible. Increasing the timer and adding more units to the summon and making the hero's better would make this power more viable.

Just some thoughts
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: [BMD]Dmitry am 28. Dez 2016, 07:18
Hello! Thank you for your titanic work, for the wonderful mod! I play The Battle for Middle-earth on the network since 2006. Your mod has become for me a practical bfme-3... The only mod, which have serious balance.

Since the release of 4.4, I play only for Imladris, trying to learn how to play, against any faction.
I play at a fairly good level, recently at the tournament came in second place of the 16 most active players in gameranger.

Imladris well balanced against Isengard, Angmar, Gondor.

Lorien:

Imladris at the start has only one detachment of swordsmen, you can quickly purchase a second ..
However, Lorien may have at the start of so many groups that force swordsmen Imladris lose its value: one unit Lorien runs, and the second attack from the back, archers shoot ...
But, at the beginning of the game, perhaps one troop swordsmen to kill the troll, received the money, do one cavalry troop.

Okay, so, with a good micro control, in the early game Imladris can withstand Lorien...
However, if Lorien builds an outpost, it is practically impossible to fight!

Exclusive spearmen, minstrels, Galadriel capture, the capture of the palantir roots, capture arrows of  Haldir (recovers a very fast), the capture of Radagast. Because of this, the cavalry can not neutralize the archers.
Maybe all this is justified for Lorien, towards to other factions, but very expensive units of Imladris...

Imladris can not lose a lot of units, it is fatal for him.

Lorien has large and inexpensive units of outpost, star arrows of very quickly destroy costly troops of Imladris.
Loremasters not solve the problem: they are just as scared of arrows of Haldir, stop of Galadriel, skill of palantir.   

Ered Luin:

Catastrophe! At the start of the game, the dwarves have the speed, have many units, cheaper, strong enough, the crows of the Palantir will help them to easily kill swordsmen of Imladris, and you can not escape! (soldiers of Imladris do not have the speed at the beginning of the game.
Of course, you can start in the cavalry for 1600 (800 + 800 stable building unit cost) but you yourselves understand ...
Well, you do not got a very strong opponent, and you miraculously survived in the early game.
But there is Torin ... he is able to destroy many swordsmen of Imladris, even with improved armor and blades of Erigion
Of course, Torin will not fight alone, he will have the support units, less expensive than in of Imladris.

But the main problem at the start of the game, rather than Thorin.

Iron Hills:
Perhaps, but extremely difficult.
In the melee compete with these guys is impossible, and archers of Imladris unavailable, second level of the barracks, only 5 (!) soldiers in troop and take the limit of 120 (!). Arrows of Mitlond good, but the cost of the three units + Tower - 4300. And these three groups is not enough in the late game. Archers Dúnedain not solve the problem, they are built too long to get the fiery darts too hard, goats destroy them very rapidly)
Well, fire catapults destroying the archers quickly and catapults of Imladris!
And, the soldiers of iron hills can get together in a pile around the catapults + iron hills are resistant to the consternation (loremasters not work)

Mordor:
In the late game Imladris good job, but at the start of Imladris has not masters of the blade, so the  free orcs surround and kill swordsmen (by means of poison and Gorbag eye of Sauron) are free, numerous groups of orcs sent to many farms destroy them, and Imladris can not have a sufficient number of troops to protect them.

Rohan:
Available cavalry, cheap peasants ... Imladris lacks pikemen units (cost of unit 600), a lot of farmers groups establish control of the map, destroying farms, and the horsemen of Rohan already at the start suppresses infantry of Imladris. All this is happening even before the possible hiring Dúnedain,
because Rohan may employ its forces immediately, Imladris need outpost (800 + cost of grade for the possibility of hiring troops) Money + time.

In conclusion, I want to say that all this applies to games between equally strong players. Of course, you can win the race strong - weak. But we want to have equal chances. Imladris newest faction and needs correcting, she is beautiful, all the heroes, the warriors are exceptionally well designed and made in style, I was surprised - this is the only race in which I  love every unit and I'm really looking forward to when Imladris can fight all factions on equal chances!
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Dez 2016, 14:43

It should be better if these balance-related considerations were merged with the proper thread, which focuses on balance solely.

--- MERGED ---
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 30. Dez 2016, 18:11
Every faction has a hard time against Lorien when you use all of Lorien's tools. There's just too much stuff that's op, like Haldir's arrow. In any case you absolutely need Cirdan for his fear resistance in this matchup and the Lindon archers for their leadership. Other than that, get an Air Lore Master for the speedbuff and then try to get into melee. Still tricky, but from my experience it's the best chance you have.

Can't really say much about the dwarves, Ered Luin's speedboost is broken while I haven't played enough matches against Iron Hills. Both Mordor and Rohan are very interesting matchups, I think. They are well balanced and the longer you survive as Imladris, the better your chances get. I like to play those :)
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: [BMD]Dmitry am 31. Dez 2016, 05:42
In many ways I agree with you. However, once again, Imladris lose if it suffered losses, the units are very expensive. Cirdan very helpful. I hope his skill Protection from the fear will remain in 4.5
Cirdan can quickly die (Celeborn, Ents, guards Thranduil)
And then the battle will be lost, and to recover from the loss of the army Imladris is not capable

Lorien archers have a lot of soldiers in each squad and a very high damage stellar arrows.
Imladris swords die instantly!
Lorien outpost provides rapid mobilization, units come one after the other.

I think the main problem is the balance of Imladris - the lack of available archers; compare: galadrim too elite, but to get them you need to build one building for 750; The squad of 10 soldiers, they are very strong, can switch between the bow and the sword (strong anti-heroes) costs 600.

To get the archers Imladris to build a library of 700+ 1200 update in the library - almost 2,000, not counting the cost of the unit (600) in Group 5 soldiers, they take 120 limit not have armor (Galadhrim have at once)

And what Imladris with an ax throwers Dwarves of Erebor? Swordsmen, arrows dunadayn they kill with one stroke, in the beginning of the game the initiative slipping out of the hands of Imladris, gnomes capture points on the map, build a catapult grady ax throwers.

The game (1on1 and team) may include a variety of situations, not always available to the outpost, and that? Imladris deprived of archers, the resources spent on expensive swordsmen, despair (if you have an experienced opponent)

In the tournament, which was recently, of 16 people only me played for Imladris, guys are afraid to play this faction.

Any errors, lost 2 squad - minus 1000 resources at the beginning of the game it is a colossal loss.

I'm not complaining, it is a feature of Imladris, costly, but strong.

But please do not deprive Imladris tactical diversity, archers should be available from the barracks level 1, these small groups without armor grade, without gold arrows and so expensive (600) will not be op.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Mogat am 31. Dez 2016, 10:16
You are bringing up some valid points here, however I wouldn't see the balance problem on the imladris side. First of all I think this faction is overall pretty good balanced and can be played with success against every other faction except Lothlorien and Ered Luin as you already pointed out.
(However its much more difficult to play as you are not allowed to loose any unit or get caugh offguard at any time. Therefore you have one of the most powerful scouting skills of the game via gidor)

I think the edain team is already fully aware of Loriens OPness and will look over it, but here some outtakes:
- Haldirs arrow is realoading with horrendous speed,
- Legolas knives wrecks with his abnormously high aoe every melee army (not that significant vs. Imla) and in archer mode he can bring down any heroe.
- Galadhrim have crazy damage and are pretty cheap for their effectiveness as you pointed out, and cannot be countered at all (archers --> Galadhrim are especially effective against them; cavalry  :D --> Galadhrim take 2+ times to run over due to their crazy hitpoints --> every other unit gets taken out from range or slaughtered in melee combat.
Combined with the most powerful Anti-cav pikes in the game, the fastest pikes in the game, the knockback resistance from the singers, crazy amounts of stuns and the elkriders lothlorien is practically immune to cavalry since the midgame. And there we have it. An archer faction which with silverthorn wrecks everything, immune to cav.

Additionally, the Lothlorien base is basically invulnerable. You can bunker with your archers in your base and since Caras galadhon guards outrange catapults sit there without danger of beeing attacked. In my opinion thats even the most significant point and should be looked upon first by the team.

So much to the faction of lothorien. You see, its the faction itself which is broken against any other faction if played correctly. I agree that vs. Imladris its especially strong because of Imladris archer-weakness, but this remains the problem of imladris. On how to maybe think to counter that I agree with what Elendil said above.

In your next point you mention dwarven axethrowers. They are pretty overpowered too at the moment, mainly becaues they profit from the blades upgrade like the rest of your army too, and because their damage counts as melee damage.
This strategy however is countered simply by Imladris cavalry and Imladris agression. Against an erebor player you need to constantly keep his army (especially his axthrowers) small so that when he finally reaches forged blades he doesn't have enough units to upgrade with it. If he does indeed manage to either win ealry engagements or get a big axthrower clump its pretty difficult for an imladris, but thats the job that needs to be done: keep him small.

Ered Luin is too strong in gereral, but against imla its a freewin.

The other matchups are more balanced and pretty interesting to play as imladris and quite winnable.
I am not so sure about your archer-proposal. If archers would be already in level one barracks I feel imla would turn into this ugly archer faction immune to cavalry, although its rather supposed to be the strong melee elite faction. I think its well balanced via the dunedain archers to which you have access through the outpost and the extremely strong lindon archers in the tower; tactical diversity is available. (The only faction against which this change would be needed is lorien anyways, so lets see how it goes after they are nerfed.) In some other matchups I feel this change could break alot.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 31. Dez 2016, 12:59
Now go write that in the Lorien Balance thread, Mogat. ;)

Axe throwers in general benefited greatly from the range tweaks that archers got. They used to do more damage and have a better damage type in exchange for not being able to shoot as far as archers, but that has now been thrown out of the window and they are just better than archers hands down (except Lorien, duh). Erebor axe throwers with their superb ability should now be considered op on paper, but you can play around them. Erebor is quite a weak faction imho, Axe Throwers carry them quite a bit. Bait your opponent into overcomitting, then punish his slower army by killing it on retreat. Other than that, try to get heavy armor; it makes their ability go from +50% damage to 0%.

I agree with Mogat concerning your archer proposal - Imladris really should be the melee superiority faction, with the strongest melee units right out of the gate, fantastic cavalry and lots of healing abilities to support your units. I like how they play in general, I actually think Imladris is a bit too strong too quickly  xD
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: [BMD]Dmitry am 31. Dez 2016, 22:58
Mogat, I have heard of you, as one of the strongest players in edain mod; If you are playing for Imladris and win Erebor - it does not mean that the game is a good balance, it can only mean that your level of micro-control is much higher than the opponent.

I spent a battle for Imladris against all races, for more than 100 hours on the network, with strong players and medium-sized

If I win for Imladris Gondor (played with Goodfella) with a score of 12: 0 but weak players, they take Erebor and ...
Of course, I use the cavalry (but ax throwers available dwarves at once, and the cavalry is 800 + 800 = 1600 (if done early in the game) dwarves on such amount can buy two outpost
In addition, the ax throwers easy to kill cavalry, and pikemen dwarves very malicious - they are very hurt and stop the cavalry.

Ax throwers kill all: swordsmen, cavalry, archers (even super expensive archers of Mitlond), buildings.

Learn armor? Dwarfs also get improved armor and axes.

Yes, dwarves of Erebor and the Iron Mountains slow, but Edain mod 4 has a static construction system (outposts, farm) and it often happens that you can not escape, it is necessary to protect.

You say Imladris to be a fraction of the strong melee swordsmen? But, at least, dwarves with the Iron Hills - exactly stronger. It's strange, the soldiers Imladris more expensive, have two improvements blades (swords Erigiona) but weaker than dwarves! I checked, even debuff loremasters, elves lose in close combat, and catapult fire killed all the archers almost instantly.

Mogat, about Lorien, you said as Bud then read my thoughts, I agree with you completely.

My suggestions for Imladris:

I think many will agree with me that it is necessary to increase the damage of the water the horses from the Palantir. Now, this ability does not cause a practical damage, in fact it duplicates the wind (as in Angmar and Imladris).

Glorfindell - a wonderful character, very helpful (though Arwen even more useful) in Tolkien's book, he is a hero, elf-warrior, even the Witch King was afraid of him.

Imladris need a strong hero killer

I think on the idea of ​​the founders edain mod Glorfindel is the hero, but it turned out not strong anti-hero. I noticed that the transition to the world of shadows (a brilliant idea, separate Respect) as it is written in Tolkien book Glorfindel successfully kills darkness heroes. But this is a game and the balance requires that Imladris was capable of and against the factions of "light".

In fact, when you see such an outrage: the firstborn Glorfindell elf, Elrond - possesses the most important of the elven rings, Elrond's sons - experienced soldiers. Torin kills them in a moment. Torin can kill 4Heroes for 4 seconds))) Celeborn good hero killer, Aragorn, Torin third terrifying killer hero
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: calixoxx am 12. Jan 2017, 03:47
Everyone complains about Lore Masters but I genuinely don't see them as a problem. At most maybe make them 700 each instead of 600 and increase their build time?

You can't even combine them until you dump an ungodly amount of resources into the damn library ^^
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 12. Jan 2017, 14:06
Everyone complains about Lore Masters but I genuinely don't see them as a problem. At most maybe make them 700 each instead of 600 and increase their build time?

You can't even combine them until you dump an ungodly amount of resources into the damn library ^^
The problem is once you do get access to the Loremaster's combined abilities, something you pretty much have to do anyways because buying the upgrade gives access to your level 3 barracks and stables, you can utterly destroy pretty much any army. 

Now the abilities by themselves aren't the biggest problem.  The combination that is considered the most broken is Wind and Light, which gets an uncounterable stun that affects both units and siege (maybe also Heroes, haven't used them in a while).  Yeah that ability is strong, but Helegwen has something similar in her Frost Arrow Volley, and I wouldn't say that ability is completely game breaking.  However, you can have as many Loremasters as you want, so you can potentially get hit by 4-5 uncounterable stuns, meanwhile the Imladris army is killing your units without anything stopping them. 

And thats not the only combination that is incredibly strong.  Wind and Water gives you access to a debuff of -50% damage and speed, which can make your units preform vastly better then the enemies.  Wind and Earth gives access to that sand tornado which, while it can only be used on a building, can just spin alot of enemy troops in circles for 1 whole minute.  Use this one on a Mordor Barracks, its quite hilarious what happens when that Barracks produces orcs.  ;)

And the strength of the Loremasters does not just come from the combination abilities.  Wind Loremasters having passive knockback on their attack is incredibly strong, their 50% speed boost plus knockback resistance make them the perfect option to chase/runaway from the enemy.  Water Loremasters can heal your troops, which is pretty strong by it self, but if you make alot of them, you can just constantly heal your army.  Light and Earth Loremasters are definitely in a more balanced spot, but they are not weak in anyway, and still have access to those dreadful combinations. 

Overall, Loremasters just give access to too much for how easy it is to get them.  Luckily for Imladris, they can preform very well still even without buying Loremasters, so if you do agree that they are too strong, you don't have to play with them.   
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: [BMD]Dmitry am 12. Jan 2017, 18:03
Everyone complains about Lore Masters but I genuinely don't see them as a problem. At most maybe make them 700 each instead of 600 and increase their build time?

You can't even combine them until you dump an ungodly amount of resources into the damn library ^^

I agree with you! Loremasters useful units, but they are not op! They are very easy to kill, they do not have immunity from fear (they cannot use their abilities)
Kill  loremasters very easy!
shots of the tower can kill loremasters for 2 seconds and will not have any combinations!
Imladris is one of the most vulnerable factions, perhaps this is the weakest race.

I say this as one of the most experienced players at Imladris, please play with me a mirror and a replay of the game will publish here if in doubt))
 
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 12. Jan 2017, 20:59
At the end of the day, the wind/light combo is what really breaks it, because its an uncounterable stun that lasts for a long time. Think of the streams of Mirkwood, except you can potentially get like 5 casts of it, in addition to all of Imladris' other buffs. Also, just to confirm, the stun DOES affect heroes as well.

The other stuff is bad, but not nearly as bad. With the debuff you can just run away, and with the heal you can just snipe the loremasters with archesr. The problem is that every single time you try to engage, you WILL be debuffed and stunned, and the enemy army WILL be constantly getting healed. It's all of them together that make Imladris so broken.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: [BMD]Dmitry am 13. Jan 2017, 16:53
Imladris is very small and expensive troops, the force does not compensate for the number of units, so in need of Imladris available loremasters, edain team did everything right, no need to change loremasters!
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 13. Jan 2017, 23:46
....What?
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: calixoxx am 15. Jan 2017, 02:08
I see your point Kryptik, but I simply have never seen more than 4 Loremasters on the field at the same time competitively. They only combine late game, by which time you (hopefully) have your army built up. They cost 600 each, they take like 120 (?) cp so you certainly dont want more than several anyway, and they are easily destroyed.

My suggestions:

. Make them 700 instead of 600
. Increase recharge time for combined powers.
. Increase recruiting time for each one.

For everyone so concerned about Haldir and Loremasters, I am shocked to hardly see anything about Helegwen's arrow, which has a large radius, especially when units are only moderately clumped. The spell lasts very long, and I have seen equal amounts of total army destruction from that as Haldir's arrow or Loremasters. Not to mention you cannot even switch into defensive position while frozen. And last, it comes at lvl 3, so usually early in the game. If Lores and Haldir need a debuff, then so does Helegwen. =]
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 15. Jan 2017, 02:17
As Elite already mentioned, Helegwen will get toned down in the upcoming patch. We do have that on our radar ;)

Lore masters are 60 cp iirc, which should probably be increased. The only thing that is actually broken about them is the combo that Elite mentioned, which has basically the same ability that Helegwen has, just without any warning time. And you can have several of those units. Destroying them isn't easy against a competent player in certain matchups either, imagine being Mordor ;).
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: calixoxx am 15. Jan 2017, 02:44
As Elite already mentioned, Helegwen will get toned down in the upcoming patch. We do have that on our radar ;)

Lore masters are 60 cp iirc, which should probably be increased. The only thing that is actually broken about them is the combo that Elite mentioned, which has basically the same ability that Helegwen has, just without any warning time. And you can have several of those units. Destroying them isn't easy against a competent player in certain matchups either, imagine being Mordor ;).


I would also support limiting them to 3 or 4 like the Lorien minstrels.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: -DJANGO- am 15. Jan 2017, 03:09
Lorien minstrels are not limited. Further a limitation should always be the ultima ratio. If you noticed, in edain only heroic units are limited to 3 units.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: calixoxx am 15. Jan 2017, 07:17
Lorien minstrels are not limited. Further a limitation should always be the ultima ratio. If you noticed, in edain only heroic units are limited to 3 units.

My mistake, but maybe this could be a compromise. Limiting to 3 loremasters would allow only 1 combination power that you would need to be strategic about.

I don't honestly even think that needs to happen because I don't consider lores OP to be honest.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: calixoxx am 17. Jan 2017, 18:14
Sorry for the double post- but is there any talk of nerfing the defenses on the Dunedain outpost? Once you get the watch tower units get wrecked trying to take it down early. It just places so many archers on it that once it's up it's very hard to take down and can sort of defend itself.

Compared to Dale or Lake Town, it seems to be much stronger and protected with the tower.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 17. Jan 2017, 19:21
Yeah, the watch tower is getting nerfed, that thing is just stupid^^
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Mogat am 17. Jan 2017, 19:25
It is silly how strong the outpost is. So much that it even amuses me whenever I see it ingame  :D
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: kreso am 18. Mai 2017, 04:50
Hi guys
I played a lot of Imladris 1v1 and team games and I have few suggestions to make them more flexible and bring rest of Imladris troops to show up in games not only cavalry and swordman (+ Lindons and pikes):

1. Library cost reduced (600 or lesser)
2. Let Lore masters have their single skill available without upgrading it and instead of that upgrade get all structure lvl2
3. When you get available eregion upgrades by Library, to make eregion shields upgradeable, upgrade give armor against arrows and bonus hp.
4. Give Gildor little stats buff he is too weak compared to Dragulin
5. Dunedain outpost tower upgrade is too strong nerf that pls
6. Give leadership to Veterans  of Last Alliance, lvl1 fear resistance to nearby units. 10lvl debuff resistance to nearby units. 20lvl knockback resistance to nearby units.
Set their cost to 1400, and make them easier to lvl up.

reasons for this:
1. Library is mostly mid game structure it is hard to rush it early to make Imladris more flexible in early game to adjust their gameplan.
2. I never see Imladris archers in game, because they are hard to access and there are Lindons so no need for imladris archers. So this could bring archers more in Imladris gameplay. Same thing to Blademasters i usually use them against 15+ units regular horde they are good but later on in game. Maybe make them cost more but improve their stats to make them harder to access they could be really op in early game.
Lore masters are really not used a lot in EG and MG. This could bring them.
3. This is problem with horde with 5 units, they are so easily killed by archers because they are always easy to focus and if you lose one battalion of Imladris units that is really big loss, so make them harder to be killed and give player more time to react. When good player focus archer fire on one battalion they can be so fast killed even with armor upgraded, so give option to player to be more safe with their frontline.
4. Poor Gildor, yeah he have 1. lvl ability the best maybe Dragulin is better in scout role than him but that ability is really op but anyway he isnt just ward. Make him at least more useful at harassing troops.
5. Towers are really op in this patch I think there would be nerf for Dunedain camp too.
6. Veterans are not useful as they should be. Rivendel swordsmen are tanky elite units. That role is taken they are better than Veterans with all upgrades and more flexible.
I didnt see Veterans at 20 lvl and I think I would see them. They are LG units and if You are in lead you really dont need them if your are behind they will die as tanks and probably they will not win game for you. This skill who give more xp is really useless because you always keep your units alive as much as You can and they lvl up at 5lvl till you get Veterans. So Make them more easier to lvl up and give them leadership because Rivendel really sux when there are debuff to their armor. If opponent go for debuffs like Nazgul focus you really dont have choice how to play against. So with suggested leadership you will try to keep Veterans alive to get that lvl10 and counter that debuffs.


I think you made great job with advance strategy skills, they make Rivendel cavalry, Swordmen and Pikes really fun to play with and really flexible to counter every thing. So their spam prevents other units to show on, at least as counters.

Thanks for reading and I ask You for reply.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: kmogon am 12. Jun 2017, 13:29
I want to say something about relation between arrows and elves. From my experience I can conclude that imladris units are too vulnerable for arrows. I know that even with this weakness some players will say that imladris = op, so I don't want to change it drastically. This vulnerability hurts the most during siege when building deal too much damage to your troops. I though about two examples which can help in this problem:

1. Eregior armor
- it would decrease damage taken from range attacks by 15%
 
It would help imladris warriors to stay a little more time during siege. This upgrade shouldn't be too powerfull couse it could take away last weakness which elves have in late game.

2. Lore masters of light
- those lore masters does nearly 0 damage and has very short range but have passive skill which boosts armor of nearbly sodiers against range attack by 20%.

Truly I didn't see anybody who would play those lore masters. For me their current state needs rework becouse they don't deal enough damage to do some serious things like their other brothers. In my concept they would be probably more usable. Close range is needed to stay close to melee fightes. Bonus is bigger than in first cocept cuse lore masters would be still easy aim to take down by enemy.


I want you to share your feedback. Maybe I'm the only one who has problem with this.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Jun 2017, 13:46
I want to say something about relation between arrows and elves. From my experience I can conclude that imladris units are too vulnerable for arrows. I know that even with this weakness some players will say that imladris = op, so I don't want to change it drastically. This vulnerability hurts the most during siege when building deal too much damage to your troops. I though about two examples which can help in this problem:

1. Eregior armor
- it would decrease damage taken from range attacks by 15%
 
It would help imladris warriors to stay a little more time during siege. This upgrade shouldn't be too powerfull couse it could take away last weakness which elves have in late game.

2. Lore masters of light
- those lore masters does nearly 0 damage and has very short range but have passive skill which boosts armor of nearbly sodiers against range attack by 20%.

Truly I didn't see anybody who would play those lore masters. For me their current state needs rework becouse they don't deal enough damage to do some serious things like their other brothers. In my concept they would be probably more usable. Close range is needed to stay close to melee fightes. Bonus is bigger than in first cocept cuse lore masters would be still easy aim to take down by enemy.


I want you to share your feedback. Maybe I'm the only one who has problem with this.

I will merge this thread of yours with the general thread that concerns Imladris balance. That is the proper place and many more people intervened there, thus increasing your chances to receive more and diverse on-topic responses :)

--- MERGED ---
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: kmogon am 12. Jun 2017, 14:18
Thanks the Walkürie, I always have problem when the suggestion is worth having its own topic  or when not  :P
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Jun 2017, 14:41
Never mind ;)

I would suggest common balance-related suggestions be forwarded in this specific typology of threads, which is present in all boards. Only in this way will it be easier to track each suggestion, avoiding fragmentation, and to gather people's answers. Balance is also a matter from which very wide-ranging discussions often originate, perhaps very different from the initial topic that started all. That's why I would personally reserve own threads for conceptual proposals, unless one is willing to present a much wide and structured proposal for balance, with the idea of revolutionising a certain aspect.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: -DJANGO- am 12. Jun 2017, 14:53
What weakness should Imladris infantry have if not be little more vulnerable to archer damage (but only due to their small-bataillons not their stats )?
Their armor upgrade already helps them alot to counter this weakness, due to the fact that archer upgrades usually come later. Also they have an active ability to increase their armor.
Your suggested buff is already implemented through the passive ability of Lindon Archers. Above that they counter every standard archers due to being a heroic unit. Imladris also has cheap Dunedain Archers with good range und good cavalry to counter enemy archers.
So you see, that Imladris can "outplay" their weaknesses quite well.
I wont say nothing concerning the Lore-Masters bcs they will likely get an overhaul at some point.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: NoldorSithLordsShipwright am 6. Feb 2018, 11:58
I believe that the loremasters' default attacks should change from ranged to melee. Lore reasons aside, it would allow them to be much more vulnerable. It might encourage just keeping the loremasters at the back, but given how powerful those attacks can be (Stone does siege damage, Winds does knock-back, Light does a lot of damage that can potentially kill Ring Mode Sauron when focused down) that would be an improvement.

However, the abilities do need to be addressed still, given how, as several people have mentioned, it can become very easy to tie the enemy down, especially in large battles where one can recruit a lot of units (personally my preferred way to play).

I'm wondering if any of the loremaster abilities strictly need to be offensive in nature or if they can be reworked into a support function. Debuffing the enemy seems more of an Angmar tactic while supporting your own very elite troops feels more thematically aligned with Imladris.

Balance might also be helped if some of the abilities (the heal, for example) had their targetting functions adjusted from "wide area around the caster" to "moderate-large target area".
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 4. Jun 2018, 20:09
Arwen's xp classification seems a bit off, she's part of the same class as scout heroes which leads her to level up insanely fast. Shouldn't she be part of the Weak_Warrior_Hero_Good?
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 4. Jun 2018, 20:13
Arwen's xp classification seems a bit off, she's part of the same class as scout heroes which leads her to level up insanely fast. Shouldn't she be part of the Weak_Warrior_Hero_Good?

That makes sense, I agree :P
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Elendils Cousin 3. Grades am 4. Jun 2018, 21:44
Already fixed for 4.5 ;)
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Big F am 26. Mär 2020, 01:03
This is the Imladris subsection of my gameplay & balance post over at the general balance discussion thread.

Imladris eco upgrades seem too strong. The cost and buildtime increase could be reversed. Imladris could unlock erestor when building the library. Bringing the library to level 2 could also bring the economy and military structures to level 2 and upgrading the library to level 3 could bring everything else to level 3 as well. Currently the library is never upgraded to level 3. By making this necessary for the economy it might also incentivize using the never used veterans of the last alliance, wind riders, imladris archers or loremasters because you unlock their upgrades now anyway at some point.

Imladris is by no means overpowered however, their battalions are very weak when isolated and trapped making map control for them extremely difficult.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: abstraktername am 8. Dez 2021, 21:14
Suggestion for Windrider spell Ride like the wind:

This spell seems to be a bit underwhelming compared to other spells, e.g. those of the Royal Guard. A suggestion for improving it and making it more impactful could be to add a broader "wind trail" (like a mix between the Helegwen ice trail and a delayed Breeze of Manwe?) behind and to the sides of the riders, where enemies are knocked down for up to e.g. 3 seconds after the riders have passed. This would enhance the disruptive effect the riders have and would fit thematically as well.

An easier alternative which would look similar would be to add a small radius to the crush effect (I guess this could be done with the CrushWeapon radius?). This would make seem it like they are riding so fast the the wind is blowing down enemies at a small distance from the batallion.

An other alternative could be to give them like a mini-Vilya effect around them where they throw enemies up a bit without damage. But only when moving obviously, otherwise you would probably let them stay in one spot.
Titel: Re: Imladris Balance Suggestions
Beitrag von: Halbarad am 9. Dez 2021, 15:07
I like the first and second idea!