Modding Union

[en] The Prancing Pony => Off Topic => Other => Thema gestartet von: lotr1997 am 3. Jan 2016, 00:26

Titel: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lotr1997 am 3. Jan 2016, 00:26
Hello Edain community! I was thinking about Evil Men in Edain, and I really think they are underused, If there is a topic on this anywhere else I apologize. My proposal is that, the Evil Men are so diverse they truly deserve their own faction. So this is a very talked about topic on Moddb from what I see, and I want to basically just give some ideas on this topic  :D. This of course would be added after all the already existing factions are released.


   So first of all the faction would be titled 'Evil Men' and would have units from mainly Rhun and Harad. So here are some of the buildings i see fit for the Evil Men, a standard resource building would be a Easterling crop farm. The men for a barracks could have a Haradrim Palace which would train Haradrim and a Easterling training ground which would train Easterlings. For upgrades the men can have a armory of sorts and a market like Gondor for Economic upgrades. Then they would have of course, the Mumak Pen which would train Mumakil. Then they could have stables of Harad which would train there cavalry which will be explained soon. The settlements could be Variag tent and it would train Variag Swords and Spears of Khand, and then a Rhun Wind Mill like seen on the Rhun map, this would be a resource building. The outposts would be a regular 3 build-plot outpost, and then a Corsair village. This village's upgrades would be Housing area adds a few houses and they generate taxes, Statue to Sauron,  this heals units and gives them 25% armor and fear resistance, then a tower that shoots arrows. Then a Corsair tavern that trains Corsair plunderers (regular Corsairs with a new name),and Corsair archers. For a final upgrade it could have Ballista maker which would construct Ballistae like Isengard's.

    The Units from the Haradrim Palace would be: Haradrim Swords, Haradrim Archers, Haradrim Skirmishers, and then for an elite unit The Half-Trolls of Far Harad. The Easterlings training ground would train the following: Easterlings ( the already existing spearmen from the spellbook), the Rhun Halberds (also from the Mordor spell), and finally Easterling guards which would be a new design completely. From the Mumakil Pen: Mumakil, and then a  'War Spikes' upgrade that would give them their nice spikes. Then from the stables: Easterling Riders (standard cavalry unit), and then the elite of the elite the Serpent Guard.
   
So this is my small little proposal of what in my opinion and Evil men faction should be like. Please tell me in the comments what you all think of this idea!
   
   
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Lord of Mordor am 3. Jan 2016, 00:35
Talking about new factions at the moment isn't too productive because we're still busy reworking all of our old factions for 4.0 ;) If we ever do introduce new factions, however, I agree the Evil Men are one of the strongest candidates.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lotr1997 am 3. Jan 2016, 00:39
Zitat
Talking about new factions at the moment isn't too productive because we're still busy reworking all of our old factions for 4.0 ;) If we ever do introduce new factions, however, I agree the Evil Men are one of the strongest candidates.
this topic is really just giving some ideas for later ON  :D  and i also understand that it would not be very productive thats why i said " This of course would be added after all the already existing factions are released." This was more of a suggestion for the future :)
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: HoarmurathOfDir am 3. Jan 2016, 01:00
1. I  definitly think that they should have a separate Harad and Rhun sub-factions, working somewhat like the dwarves, BUT with some special mechanics (not a dwarf copy paste, that would be boring). I can't think of anything, but just think about how ridiculus it would look to have Rhun and Harad buildings in one Camp/Citadel.
2. I think I have a small idea for a basic settlement that is so cool and 100% lore-accurate that I must post it. So, Rhun could build a "Wainrider Camp" on their basic settlement, and it would work as a factory for the "Wainrider Wagons" - a Battlewagon Reskin/Remodel, that would be such a perfect touch!  ;)
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Walküre am 3. Jan 2016, 01:05
I agree with Lord of Mordor.

Also, if you look at the previous pages of this and the Edain Discussion section, you will see that it has been so far a 'consolidated policy' locking threads that involve this matter, since, as I and other people already wrote here and on ModDB, these speculations, being valuable or not, are technically and formally not suggestions at all, since there is not any known plan about a possible Evil Men faction, apart from voices.

Therefore, I think that this topic could be carried on in the Off-Topic section, as an exception, since it does involve LOTR/BFME-related matters, but it's nonetheless based on pure speculations that can't be part, for now, of the Edain Mod Suggestions boards, I guess  :)
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Fredius am 3. Jan 2016, 01:24
You know, in the German side of the suggestion forums there is already a whole proposal made for the Evil Men faction. The whole faction is fleshed out in a 4 page discussion :D. Here is the link, just try using google translate: http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32289.0.html
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: NetoD20 am 3. Jan 2016, 01:39
I didn't want to enter details like units, heroes, etc. on this because of the reasons the Lord of Gifts and DieWalküre pointed out, and because we don't even know if they would be an agressive or defensive faction. When I helped stirring up this discussion on ModDB I was more worried about other contenders for the two faction "slots" to be filled after the remaining announced factions are released. In fact, I still am interested in any other possible factions that could be implemented, besides the Men of Darkness, because I can think of none.

In the case of no other strong contestants, I think the ideal thing would be for Rhûn and Harad, or Easterlings and Southrons to use more general names, to be separate factions, but I may be wrong in this. Lore-wise it makes sense given how big a territory these people occupy and how diverse their culture is, having many separate tribes and peoples under the Easterling and Southron umbrellas. These diverse peoples could be turned into units, but maybe I'm exagerating, and there isn't that much material for two whole factions. There certainly is for at least one, not to mention artwork I've been digging.

In either case, even though I said that I don't want to enter into details, I had this general idea of a mobile wainrider outpost or building. Given how these people live, travel, and wage war in their wagons, I guess it would be interesting and unique in the mod to have a wagon-building, or maybe a building formed by many wagons, that is capable to be moved around and relocated in the battlefield.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: NetoD20 am 3. Jan 2016, 01:40
You know, in the German side of the suggestion forums there is already a whole proposal made for the Evil Men faction. The whole faction is fleshed out in a 4 page discussion :D. Here is the link, just try using google translate: http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32289.0.html

Oh, lawd, this is going to take a while...
But thank you Fredius, I'll take a look.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Walküre am 3. Jan 2016, 01:56
That is the German Community, and I don't really know the reasons why they could open a thread that involves this topic, or what reasons the Edain Team or the German Moderators had to allow the debate to legitimately continue, and I'm not questioning that.

As I wrote above, all the threads of this kind in the English forum were closed by the three Moderators that have been present so far in the English Community  :)
And I totally agree with their reasons, being myself one of them in the first place  :D

You can behold yourself.

http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32197.msg419799.html#msg419799

http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32052.msg416746.html#msg416746

http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31514.msg404259.html#msg404259

It's like in the Common Law.
It's a sort of precedent case in the 'Moderating Law' of MU  ;)
And, as I explained on ModDB, the reasons of this 'consolidated practice' are based both on the known reasons already mentioned and various pronouncements of the Edain Team in this direction.

But, as you can see, nothing has been locked.
I just moved this thread in this section, as we are virtually talking about something that technically doesn't exist neither as an actually existing element nor as an announced plan.
But, all opinions are obviously more than welcomed, and I too support the general pillars of this topic as I stated on ModDB.

If there is an official statement regarding this suggestion, I will be more than happy to move this thread again, and 'restore' it as a regular proposal  :)
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Fredius am 3. Jan 2016, 03:02
Oh wait Walk my post wasn't meant as a reply to your previous post, I just wanted to notify everyone that in the German forums there already was a proposal about this idea [ugly].
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lotr1997 am 3. Jan 2016, 07:29
Zitat
if there is an official statement regarding this suggestion, I will be more than happy to move this thread again, and 'restore' it as a regular proposal  :)
Well if it does i would like to say thank you :D
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lord_ellessar am 3. Jan 2016, 12:00
I think it should be a haradrim  big camp (they are the light units for the early game) and outside,

With the little camp:
  Far harad (already proposed)
.  Mumak and a mahud hero
  Corsairs outpost
.  The captain and corsairs
  Outpost
.  This could be a place, as already said they could have a unique unit that provide ressources and it could be a rally point where the caravan goes to get ressources.

With the three buildplots,
  Probably more something like a rhun stronghold where you can train heavier units like the mirkwood one or the dale one...
.  Easterlings pikmens
.  Easterlings swordsman
.  Easterlings archers
.  One or twoo heroes,...

The powers:
Sandstorm
Scorpions
Arid lands
Etc...
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Walküre am 3. Jan 2016, 14:04
Oh wait Walk my post wasn't meant as a reply to your previous post, I just wanted to notify everyone that in the German forums there already was a proposal about this idea [ugly].


Oh, sorry  :D

Don't worry, I wanted to explain some things anyway, about the reasons why we generally closed threads of this kind, and I really didn't know that in the German forum there even were very specific suggestions.
So, thank you for having pointed it out  ;)

You see, your contribution is always precious, Fredius  :P
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Fredius am 3. Jan 2016, 18:01
You saw the opportunity and you took it eh xD?

In any case I myself hope it will be divided into 2 factions, because Rhun and Harad each have too much stuff and allies to be put into 1 faction. I'd say Harad and Umbar should be one faction, and Rhun and Khand the other. But only if there are no plans atm for other factions xD.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: NetoD20 am 3. Jan 2016, 21:02
You saw the opportunity and you took it eh xD?

In any case I myself hope it will be divided into 2 factions, because Rhun and Harad each have too much stuff and allies to be put into 1 faction. I'd say Harad and Umbar should be one faction, and Rhun and Khand the other. But only if there are no plans atm for other factions xD.

I agree woth Fredius, in my Mirkwood castle proposal someone stated that the Team thinks (rightfully) that Men are the most important in the Third Age, so it makes sense to me for there to be 4 whole human factions, even though I think humans are kind of borinzzzzzzzz... kidding lol
I don't see any other strong cadidates besides Rhûn and Harad, and for whatever reason I recently took some liking for Rhûn (I think it's Khamûl's creepy charisma :P ).

I believe it is important for these factions to be very exotic, we could have new creatures native from those places not seen in other factions of te mod, like scorpions and serpents. Edain has a lot of animal motiffs, if you stop to think about it; raven, ram and boar for the dwarves; thrush for Dale; swam for Dol Amroth; bears for beorningers; spiders for Dol Guldur and Cirith Ungol; eagles for the elves in general, and deer/elk for Mirkwood. Also we could see the legendary were-worms (NOT as they appear in the movie, something more like the old Goblin Earth Worm spell in the vanilla game).

Also, considering the possibility of two separate factions of Rhûn and Harad, I think it would be really great if one of them (Rhûn for their having armor and metal working) to be a defensive faction and the other (Harad and their light soldiers) to be an agressive faction, it would further differentiate them. Let's acknowledge that people non-versed in lore may not even know of Rhûn from the movies. They may think that the evil men in the Black Gate scene of Two Towers are the same kind of men that attack Minas Tirith with the oliphaunts, and also the same as the corsairs. So to some people the eastern cultures of Middle-Earth are just a jumble of bad guys allied to orcs, and the more these  two factions could be different from one another the best, and also the subfactions within these factions.

Also I've just came across this nice artwork for a variag the other day (it's actually pretty common, most people here must know it), I think it's really good, and could inspire a model for a unit in the mod:
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: NetoD20 am 3. Jan 2016, 21:13
Possible feature inside the Rhûn faction?
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Kine_of_Araw
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 3. Jan 2016, 21:22
I agree with everything you said Neto. :)
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: NetoD20 am 3. Jan 2016, 21:58
I agree with everything you said Neto. :)

I'm glad you do ^__^

Just remembered there's a poll in this thread. I think a fourth option should be added about Rhûn and Harad being two different factions.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lotr1997 am 4. Jan 2016, 22:41
Zitat
Just remembered there's a poll in this thread. I think a fourth option should be added about Rhûn and Harad being two different factions.
I have :D don't forget to vote again!
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: NetoD20 am 5. Jan 2016, 03:20
Zitat
Just remembered there's a poll in this thread. I think a fourth option should be added about Rhûn and Harad being two different factions.
I have :D don't forget to vote again!
Thank you, lotr1997 :)
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lotr1997 am 5. Jan 2016, 05:46
Zitat
Thank you, lotr1997 :)
No problem :D
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Isildur_014 am 5. Jan 2016, 22:14
I believe that the factions should be separate and have several reasons for this:

1) both cultures are distinct and although Tolkien did not give details about them, is unanimous in communities and fans that they are distinct.

2) Rhun seems to be a civilization where faction are fixed, this is demonstrated by the maps created by Tolkien showing a region with a great sea and rivers, this implies that Rhun civilization probably had a well-developed agriculture, while Harad has a more nomadic aspect, the maps is always shown a desert region of people who are constantly moving in search of fertile oases and milder weather.

3) Both regions are widely separated by thousands of kilometers and several kingdoms between them. Are the kingdoms of factions already known of Middle Earth. while Rhun is located to the east, Harad is located to the south.

4) by its distinctive look, its economic base is to be a little different. Rhun is strong in fishing and agriculture, with a mining already developed that 04 of the 07 clans of dwarves inhabit this region. Harad must have a livestock already developed what is seen on canonical works and interpretations of scholars who despite being an arid region, has a lot of animal species. Also due to the large amount of tribes in their Harad land should have a relatively developed trade.

5) Because of these peculiarities both factions probably have different military aspects. Rhun must have a little more armored soldiers and weapons and armor a bit heavier, with some lighter units to cover their deficiency in speed. Already Harad, having nomadic aspect, has more light and less armored units but at a higher speed. However, Harad may also have stronger drive as the half-trolls.

6) His buildings may also be different from Rhun must have stronger buildings, built with stones probably derived from the red mountains and other mining camps, as well as wood from several small forests around the Sea of Rhun and its rivers. Thus, they are able to build powerful fortresses. Harad, in turn, turned to its most buildings nomadic aspect with several stalls and lighter constructions, but with the rapid construction.

7) both factions  can still have different siege weapons, Rhun with their mechanical devices designed to destroy cities with strong influence of dwarf technology. Harad has the siege weapons based on strong giant animals and their steppes.

8) Finally, it demonstrates that Rhun and Harad have different geopolitical aspects. It is likely that Rhun is a unified kingdom in the hands of Lord Ruler. Thus, although there vassal kingdoms, these smaller kingdoms are governed by a king high overlord (function that belonged to Khamul). Harad, in turn, is made up of several clans warriors who often fight each other. But these clans unite in times of war in what may be called the War Council if there is a common enemy (Gondor, for example).

Remember what I said is not absolute or 100% true, but just my interpretation of my reading the works of Tolkien and added interpretations of other fans. :)
Soon I intend to make another comment stating my ideas on how to fit it in Edain Mod.: D  :D

Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lotr1997 am 5. Jan 2016, 22:53
I agree with everything you said Isildur :D
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: NetoD20 am 5. Jan 2016, 23:28

Isildur, você também é brasileiro? hahaha
Your last paragraphs are in portuguese, dear.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Isildur_014 am 6. Jan 2016, 03:20
Yes, I am Brazilian and I ended up confusing the language at the time of posting the comment.
Thanks for the support Lotr1997
  :D  xD [uglybunti]
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 6. Jan 2016, 14:34
You know, in the German side of the suggestion forums there is already a whole proposal made for the Evil Men faction. The whole faction is fleshed out in a 4 page discussion :D. Here is the link, just try using google translate: http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32289.0.html

If you have the time, it would be really great if you could translate this over to proper English for us. I would like to read it but google translate just does too poor of a job, the English is too broken for me to understand properly. You've taken several ideas from the English forums to German, how about letting us see something from the other side? Thanks! :)
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Fredius am 6. Jan 2016, 19:27
Omg have you seen how huge that proposal is :D?? It will take quite a while to translate, but I'll try it someday. I won't translate the whole thing though, but only summarize the important stuff.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 6. Jan 2016, 22:20
Yes I did see, I know its a big post, which is why I want to read it xD

A summary would be fantastic if you could do it :)
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Isildur_014 am 7. Jan 2016, 18:26
IIDEAS: EVIL MEN

Rhun

Although we have no precise information about Rhun, it's likely that Tolkien must have been based in Eastern cultures from Eastern Europe and the Far East, such as the Turkish-Mongol and Chinese. That's pretty speculated among those who research about Tolkien's universe.
In my opinion, although Rhun be a faction of wicked men, she might have a fortress with defensive aspect, similar to Angmar. The reason for this is what I have explained in previous reviews about their mining and work with wood.
Buildings and military units in Rhun.

Royal Palace: central location of Rhun fortress belonging to the King Overlord. It is also the place where the heroes of that faction are trained.
Military Academy: Standard building for training of military units of the eastern army. Train swordsmen, spearmen and archers. These units can start with arms and light armor or medium that can be updated later in the game.
Stables: train the cavalry Rhun, which although not as powerful as the Rohan or Gondor, serves to support the infantry. At its peak the stable can train chariots. These cars would not be equal to exist in their neighboring nation, Iron Hills, but have their peculiarities. The horse-drawn carriages would be instead of goats;the number of war chariots would be limited so as not to divert the focus of Rhun infantry. In relation to its model, I think they could remember the models used by Eastern peoples in ancient and middle ages.
Arsenal: a building would be able to provide updates on weapons and armor for the army of Rhun. Too, can build siege weapons. These weapons can be the standard battering ram and some sort of catapult.

Economic buildings in Rhun.

Local Market: economic constructions that generates resources, and provide economic improvements. Buildable only within the fortress.
Mining field: generate resources. Buildable inside and outside the fortress.
Farm: generate resources. Buildable only outside the fortress.


  Rhun Outposts

Initially, I mean I realize that in the community there are two prevailing opinions about the factions of evil men. The first is that all sub-factions of evil men must be blended into one; The second is that the main factions are (Rhun and Harad) must be separated, however, related to smaller Sub-factions support (Umbar and Khand, for example). I support this last idea, not only for aesthetic reasons but also in respect to the works of Tolkien and interpretations of fans in addition to the model proposed by the team Edain.
On this last, I remember that ET has already ruled in the sense that the focus of the team to the Edain 4.0, was as each faction could build on conquered territory, not just a web of functional buildings that flout tradition Tolkien, or in the words of his own team Edain: "because we are no longer limiting ourselves to what fits in an inn, but rather concentrate on what a specific faction would be able to build on a given patch of land".
In this sense, I think Rhun would not allow the construction of a Giant war camp belonging to Harad on its territory. Just as Harad would hardly allow the construction of a fortress Rhun in their land. However, Rhun could easily allow the construction of a fortress mini Variag faction of Khand and Harad a fortress of mini Umbar faction. This would be, in my opinion the most correct way to fit all factions of evil men in the Edain Mod, so that they combine in way possible, respecting the model proposed by the Edain Team and also tradition of Tolkien. The solution to this is the Outposts.
Regarding Rhun, we have the following:
Frontier Fortress: buildable at the outpost. The reason for existence of this building is that in Tolkien's maps, the Rhun region is quite extensive, so that you, go beyond the lands known by most middle ground west of people. This implies that to keep such a large territory, building powerful strongholds in its various regions, mainly border is required. These buildings can train units that are linked directly to the King Overlord, as Royal Guard, for example, which is to enforce the will of the King in the most remote regions of the kingdom.
Fortaleza Variag: buildable at the outpost. Train Elite units of the army of Khand. Although there is no much information about the Variag, Tolkien wrote that fought alongside the East in the fields of Pelennor and "hated the sun." There are theories which states that the word comes from the Hindu language Khand "Khand", which means something like "Kingdom". Incidentally, if we compare the average earth map as the map of our world, we see that Khand is located in a similar location where is India, giving an idea of its origin and how would their culture.

Remember what I said is not absolute or 100% true, but just my interpretation of my reading the works of Tolkien and added interpretations of other fans. :)
soon I will do my comment 3/4 explaining my general ideas for Harad.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: CragLord am 9. Jan 2016, 17:12
Hello everyone! :)

This is nice topic.
First of all, I have voted for one combined faction, but the most accurate thing in my opinion is to have 2 factions concerning men of the east. Even 3. ;)
In general, this is really serious matter. Some seroius lore "analysis" is needed to be done before any suggestion concerning this matter.
There are so much "contradictory" informations concerning men of the east.
In time of WOTR, it is for sure that all of them very united against Free people, so idea of one faction concening men of the east is ok.
I see that some suggestions have been made concerning factions, builidings, outposts etc.
I won't suggest for now anything or comment current suggestions, I will just call on more analysis of data we have concening these men of the east.
First, we know about Eastelings of Rhûn and Haradrim of the south, also there was Umbar and Khand.
In general there are several "nations" of men of the east. Almost all of them were in war with each other, but during War of the Ring, they were united under Sauron's influence against Free folk.
I will just give some basic info concerning men of the east, and call you guys to base your primary ideas on lore accurate facts we have. I mainly rely on tolkien gateway, because it is for now the most accurate site concerning lore. :)

Here is one rough map with territories: http://img09.deviantart.net/1180/i/2012/151/6/0/middle_earth_by_eowyn_saule-d51r9oh.jpg

So there are Khand, Harad (Near Harad and Far Harad), Rhûn.


These were some basic informations from Tolkien Gateway. I just tried to present some "rough" division, in order to get better picture before suggesting anything. 
Relationships between these people of the east, their kind of life, warfare, history and other data are something which need to be analysed in detailed way before making any concept, in the first place concept of one or two factions.
I think this is really tough matter which will require a lot of time, because of that I think it should be discussed later after all other factions are realised, which is also idea of team I think.

Regards,
CragLord
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Slawek56703 am 9. Jan 2016, 17:32
I was the only one who voted for more units from spelbook he he . I think Rhun or Harad
can replace Mordor on certain maps like Arnor/Gondor or maybe 3rd option on small camp (the one with 3 build plots ) curently used Minas Morgul / Cirith Ungol the 3rd option could me Evil men faction and then option for Harad or Rhun (player choice) Of course summoned units still exist well lets say summoned are uniqe and in this camp for evil man harad had no mumakil and Rhun ummm lets say Soldier of Rhun ? or whatever they called
there are currently if i no mistaken 2 Pike units Rhun so one summoned and Normal Easterling possible to Recruit . This is all Sorry for Language
PS : we need horns sounds from lotr when we summon Harad /Rhun elites 
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: CragLord am 9. Jan 2016, 19:09
I am not so found of camp version. I think that current outpost buildings are very reasonable and nice. Concerning "evil men" role in Mordor faction, I think that current situation is nice and "enough". They were mainly supporters to Sauron, and one of main reinforcements during WOTR. So their current situation as summon power is very fitting in Mordor faction, and I wouldn't like to see that changed.
Also suggestion of replacing Mordor on some maps maybe has sence, but again I don't see that as fitting suggestion. That basicaly means that you need again to "build" new faction in purpose of using it on some maps.
If there are tendency of creating this new faction (and there are enough material from lore which indicates that we can create this new faction as separate one) then it should be done as one independent faction (nothing similar to Arnor/Gondor).
Also Mordor is already "the most powerful faction". Adding this new Outpost will just make faction overdosed.
Making more units from summoning spell is more balance thing, again I find current summons pretty nice (except maybe lack of Haradrim archers) in lore and balance terms.
From lore materil it is obvious that "Men of the East" need seperate faction in my opinion. Question is 1 or 2? :) xD

PS. I just want to say (as in my previous comment), there is enough materil for new faction concerning "evil men", just we need to anylize that material in very detailed way before suggesting anything.

Regards,
CragLord
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lotr1997 am 18. Jan 2016, 19:46
I agree with CragLord, I want Separate Factions if it ever does come to the game.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Skeetles am 21. Jan 2016, 21:47
My personal bias is towards a single faction, split in two representing the northern and southern branches of the evil men, with harad/southrons having a umbar/black númenórean sub faction and the rhûn/easterlings having a khandish sub faction.
(Preferably it would mimic the dwarves in a lot of ways)

I also think that the spells mordor has shouldn't be changed, except maybe replacing one of the horsemen units in the harad spell with archers, but even that's pushing it a bit (since I can't personally recall much mention of archers, the reinforcements in the pelennor were mostly cavalry)

I'm wondering how you guys would imagine an evil men faction would play, though? Since they're the most likely candidate to become a thing.

Personally I think Harad would be mostly light armor, hard hitting raider faction with some 'glass cannon' elites save for maybe a solid elite infantry half troll unit or elite guard in form of númenóreans, with fast anti-economy umbar units.

Rhûn would be more of the opposite, but still offensively oriented (keeping up with the evil factions roster, ofcourse) their units sporting heavy armor from the get-go but lacking the heavier hitting base line. Their elites would be designed to fight the dwarves head-on and keep up with their late-game armor insanity.
Khandish should be a build plot for them, and provide cheaper and faster units more in line with my thoughts for umbar, with an elite unit with high damage to armor.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: bookworm1138 am 22. Jan 2016, 06:12
working off your idea, Skeetles, here is what i would suggest:

Suggestion 1: a Rhun fortress as the base fortress, since most of the people commenting on this thread seem to agree with Rhun being more "stable" as opposed to Harad's more nomadic culture. The outposts can create two different camps: a Rhun camp and a Harad camp. They would both act like the regular outposts for Gondor, Rohan, Isengard and Mordor, with three build-plots on them.

The Harad camp would build the Haradrim Palace, the Umbar Tavern and the Mumakil Pen. The Harad camp will be like the one in BfMe1, which trains Haradrim units: Archer, Spear-Thrower, a Mahud half-troll elite warrior and the Harad cavalry. The Mumakil Pen would, of course, train Mumaks. The Umbar Tavern (or you can make a more Byzantine-style structure, reflecting Umbar's place as the former trade center of the Numenorean civilization at the vanguard of Haradwaith, just as Constantinople was the trade gateway for the Eastern Roman Empire on the edge of the eastern lands in the real world) would train Umbar corsairs (the ones from the standard BfME2) and elite archers (as Umbar, especially in the films, is depicted as a ship-fairing nation, long-range archers would be most useful firing from the decks of their black ships).

I feel that the Variags of Khand, as they are the one sub-faction with the least known about them according to the official lore (and not even appearing in the movies), should be represented on an expansion plot building, similar to the Ranger Tents or Beorning Hut. While I know that the Edain Team is rather fond of the Lord of the Rings table-top game, I found the bushido-samurai style of the Variags therefrom to be a bit too real-world recognizable. I would recommend, since "Variag" is similar to the real-world word "Varangian", the Variags of Khand would be a nomadic Black Numenorean sub-faction, almost like super-evil Norsemen (the book also describes them with axes and beards like Dwarves).

Suggestion 2: since this is a faction of Evil Men, we start off with a no-walls Black Numenorean fortress, representing that the Black Numenorean servants of Sauron (like the Mouth of Sauron) were the ones that brought the Men of Darkness back under the sway of Sauron. then, in similar fashion to the Dwarves, you can choose whether to have Rhun or Umbar as the main faction. the main problems with this suggestion would be the lack of originality, since this would be a repeat of the Dwarves, and that it would require expanding Umbar, since having a massive Harad fortress would be unlike their nomadic nature. also it would probably be hard to have the AI use this as well.

Additional suggestions about units and their roles:

Rhun:

Easterling Swordsmen - light melee unit
Easterling Pikemen - anti-cavalry melee unit
Soldiers of Rhun - elite anti-cavalry melee unit
Balchoth Lancer - light cavalry
Rhunic Cataphract - heavy cavalry
Wain-Rider - elite ranged cavalry
Blue Acoltye - elite spellcaster/siege unit

Khand Subfaction:

Variag Berserker - elite melee unit

Harad:

Haradrim Archer - light ranged unit
Haradrim Spear-Thrower - elite ranged unit
Mahud Half-Troll - elite melee unit
Haradrim Cavalry - medium cavalry
Mumakil - elite ranged cavalry/siege unit

Umbar Subfaction:

Corsair of Umbar - elite melee unit
Umbar Archer - elite ranged unit

The Easterling Swordsmen would fit into the first suggestion, filling in the role of light melee unit that, until now, Rhun has been lacking. The Blue Acolyte would be based on what little we know about the Blue Wizards, with one rumor being that they founded (unintentionally or not) magic cults during their ventures into the East. It certainly seems to be the most fantastical element here, and would seem more fantastic on the field of battle, throwing fire-balls to tear down fortress walls, but my thoughts on this matter were to have a siege unit that was wholly unique and not just another catapult (the Haradrim have the Mumakil, which could very much be used as a siege unit as well as a troop carrier and walking garrisonable tower). Other suggestions for a more "realistic" Rhun siege weapon are welcome.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Skeetles am 23. Jan 2016, 21:25
Maybe after choosing Harad the fortress would become a more nomad-style camp.
I really like the idea of the black númenóreans/umbar getting more love, since their influence more or less extends to nearly every evil faction, I think they should get their own special treatment.
Maybe they could be the primary faction, or the one tying the other two together.
I wouldn't want it to underplay the roles of the other two at all though, as they would probably be the primary sources of units, with the late game having possible numenorian options.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 23. Jan 2016, 22:04
On Evil Men and Blue Wizards
First and foremost I believe if at all possible due to how “big” both Harad and Rhun are they should be two fractions, as in a combined fraction one would dominate and diminish the other. Secondly try as I might I cannot come up with another good fraction bar the Moriquendi, Avari and the dwarfs that dwell in Rhun. With those thoughts in mind on to my actual suggestion.
In a Harad fraction I believe they should be the Lorien for the evil fractions, that is to say they have a small building requirement to represent their tribal nature. The main camp/fortress would have buildplots for watchtowers with neither having walls to represent how aggressive Harad is. The central spot should be a Chieftains Hut to recruit Heroes. The buildings you can build here should be: murkmil pen to recruit murkmil and advance archers, simple tents to recruit basic infantry and upgrade your population, lavish tents to recruit basic cavalry, a tribute camp for resources and a blacksmith to improve your units. The settlements spots should be a trading post, slavers hut and Harad Camp, to recruit basic infantry. On outposts you could build a Harad Outpost similar to the Lorien Outpost, a Variags camp and an Umbar Tavern. The camp would have three building plots which could build a raiders gathering to produce advance infantry, riders post to build advance cavalry and a stockpile to generate resources. The Umbar tavern would produce advance infantry and could be upgraded with a tower and improved walls. Their spell book would consist of sand and Mordor themed powers such as sandstorm, encroaching sand and Mordor and Harad reinforcements. Their ring hero would be the Harad Chieftain. Their buildings would upgrade by producing units.
At this point there would be five good fractions ad five evil fractions so I propose that Rhun has the option of being good or evil similar to the dwarf’s choice of sub fraction. As such the spell book would be themed around neutral eastern spells. Regardless their main fortress would have walls with a camp having light walls. On Rhun regardless of fraction you would have at the main fortress a barracks for basic infantry, a stable for cavalry and a blacksmith for upgrading units. The evil buildings would be a tribute camp, and a siege workshop for mechanical siege engines. The good buildings would be a wizard’s enclave for magical siege units and a tax office. On settlements you can build a windmill and a farm for resources. The good building would be an Avari camp to represent their wild nature and to offer advance infantry similar to Cirith Ungol. The evil building would be a Mordor outpost for the same reason as the Avari camp. The neutral outpost would be he Rhun outpost with the three building spots. The evil outposts would be a Harad Embassy with the upgrades of a Murkmil Pen, Umbar Tavern and Tents. The other outposts would be the “eastern abode of the Dark Lord is briefly noted in The Silmarillion as a place which he surrounded with fire.” Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rh%C3%BBn. It would offer advance Mordor units and be the Mordor fortress. The good outposts would be a Dwarf Embassy to offer dwarf units and a Moriquendi Palace to offer advance mages and cavalry. The core hero for the evil side would be Khamul with good being the Blue Wizards, these are also the ring heroes.   
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Rob_13 am 13. Apr 2016, 18:10
My idea here would be to add a single Evil-Men faction with the option to choose between Harad and Rhun subfactions (like Dwarves do), each faction with their own units and buildings, but maybe use the Tavern to recruit basic infantry from the other subfaction, for example, if you picked Rhun as your main faction you can recruit in the Tavern basic Harad infantry like swordsmen, archers or lancers.

I think Rhun and Harad can share the same spellbook since they are both Sauron's allies they support can be based on black magic spells and orc-uruk-goblin support.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Rob_13 am 20. Apr 2016, 00:52
According to some Edain's team members there's still room for 2 more factions in the mod!!! So choose wisely!!! [uglybunti]

Personally I pick Evil Men and Dol Guldur!!!  xD
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Walküre am 20. Apr 2016, 01:01
There already is a thread that widely deals with these matters, in this same section  ;)
You will also find a poll for which you can obviously express your vote.

I will thus merge this topic with that one. Furthermore, just an observation about your poll (that I will delete): options like Dale, Minas Morgul and Dol Guldur don't make sense at all, because they are already implemented very well in the game via the characteristic subfaction system of the Edain Mod 4.0.

MERGED
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 3. Okt 2016, 02:20
After much consideration I have come up with a new concept for the the Evil Men, as my previous ideas were flawed to a general lack of knowledge I had of the more obscure facets of the Lord of the Rings lore, and hence I have two new ideas.


Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 17. Dez 2016, 05:38
Just a curious discussion on who you guys think should be the "Ringheroes" for the Evil Men faction. Also, who would be the best character all around (most mighty tank, mass slayer, building destroyer, hero killer character).

For Men of the South I would have to say Dalymyr is the most powerful for the Men of the South as he is a Black Numenor descendent and I think he would make a very interesting ring hero.

As for Rhun, I don't know, does anyone know of any non-canon cool characters that could compete with the other ring heroes?
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 17. Dez 2016, 08:53
To quote myself:
"They have three (!) ring heroes, the King of Rhun uses the ring to instantly promote all of his buildings to the Imperial Level, crowns himself Emperor and gains an aura that increases the defence of his buildings. In addition he can upgrade a palace of a fortress (Central building) into a Dragon Spire, which allows Rhun to chain a single dragon to their side. This represents the height of their obsession with dragons as their armour are modelled on them. Suladân use the ring to increase the attack and speed of the units of the fraction. The final hero the Lord of Umbar is the most interesting in that when he gains the ring, a unit called a Dark Priest is spawned who can be used to build a Temple of Melkor with the Ring, hence their final ring hero is more of a building. The Temple allows the building of Temple Guard (Elite Infantry that switch between Sword, Pike and Shield) and Temple Knights (Elite Cavalry that switch between Lance and Bow), and can be upgraded to level 5 by sacrificing units to the temple. Once level 5 is reached the Temple can be sacrificed to train a Shade of Morgorth, which is not related to Morgorth in any way but rather is a construct formed of the ring and the lives used sacrificed and is controlled by Umbar. This Shade wields a hammer and uses shadow based abilities, and upon death drops the ring."
This topic should be discussed in this thread however:
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32416.30.html
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Dez 2016, 12:56
I will merge this topic with the proper thread that relates to Evil Men.

--- MERGED ---
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 17. Dez 2016, 15:50
Diewalkure thanks for merging links. I had been looking for this discussion.

Lordoflinks, I loved your ideas man. These were flawless dude! I feel they are canonical, they bring the essence of the books to life, show the essence of the movie, and would offer excellent gameplay. I feel it would be fool-hearty not to implement your ideas into the "Evil Men" faction. They work too superbly. I LOVE IT.

If we do a vote on your idea, you have my staff friend. I'll check out the other link you posted and put my two cents on their. But I literally cannot say enough good things about this idea!
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 17. Dez 2016, 15:58
Also lordoflinks, I feel the bluewizards should be separate from the Evil Men, there is nothing in canon that says they were with Sauron's forces. So I agree with your newest proposal more than any
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 17. Dez 2016, 17:29
Lordoflinks

I did some thinking and I still like your concept. I also wanted to add this, I feel that the starting castle/camp should be black numenorean based given that they colonized all around middle earth. Then I think we could use the heroes you suggested, but I would like to see the Evil Men pick their theme from the Black Numenor fortress. There they can choose Harad or Rhun and have all the powers, settlements, and stuff that you talk about along with the ringheroes as well.

I would still like to see a Dwarf like system implemented for the Evil Men faction, why? Cause they would have more heroes this way and it still separates them enough to show that they are independent from each other and would fight each other.

If we absolutely cannot do a Dwarf like system between just Rhun and Harad. Then we should continue with what you said. But I honestly feel that your way mixed with my way would be the best option for all. The only task that would be hard is the Dwarf like system, but I think since they would just be picking between Rhun and Harad that the coders wouldn't have too much difficulty.  :)
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 18. Dez 2016, 00:11
In an ideal world the Blue Wizards would be with a Dorwinion fraction.
I feel that Rhun is the best base, as the Dark Numerorians never played a huge role in the War of the Ring, and Harad is too savage and nomadic I feel to have a Castle.
I don't believe the Dwarf system would work, as it can not cater for different Castles, and would end up making Harad and Rhun symmetrical when in reality they had very different focuses. I see the virtue in a Dwarf system, but I don't know if I could come up with enough units and buildings for Harad. However that in the end is a question for the Coders.
I am glad you like my newer proposal, I feel it captures the essence of the men who turned to Melkor in the first and second ages.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 18. Dez 2016, 01:28
To LordofLinks,

I do like your proposal, I also thought that maybe we could include a Priest of Morgoth hero for Rhun, since I know he went to the East to contact the men in the Silmarillion. Perhaps the Evil Men could have four ring heroes: The three that you said and the Priest of Morgoth for Rhun. 2 for Harad and 2 for Rhun.

The only reason I suggested a Black Numenor fortress is because any Evil Man faction can use it as their starting point and then their traditional buildings could be built inside and outside the fortress. I like this concept because, like I said, it makes more sense and signifies the distinction between their cultures while also addressing their ties to the dark numenorians.

Coding is an issue, but I think it could be made to work. I have seen Edain accomplish such great tasks.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 18. Dez 2016, 03:06
A Priest of Morgoth hero is a good idea for Rhun and gives them another hero but I would only be in favour of making him a ring hero if the dwarf system was used, other wise he would be redundant.
The thing is Rhun does not have ties to Numenor through Dark or light, and giving them a fortress based of Numenor I feel diminishes their own accomplishments, as it implies Rhun has become advance as they have had due to Numenor; when in reality their accomplishments are due to themselves.   
Besides Harad can't have a castle with walls; how would you get the Murkamil out. :D
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 18. Dez 2016, 06:55
To Lordoflinks,

You are right, but I don't think Mumaks would be built in the fortress anyways. Actually, Rhun has come in contact with the Kings Men (Numenor) it is stated they colonized all around the world (coastal ports and other areas). So that is what I was saying, the buildings are like abandoned or well kept Numenor fortresses. But at this point it is just a building.

At the core this is what I would like to see:
1. A Dwarf like system for Harad and Rhun.
2. Many different heroes and subfaction builds for each faction.
3. 3 or 4 Ringheroes

If all of this can be accomplished, I don't care what the initial building is. If they want a Rhun fortress, so be it. To me it doesn't matter as long as the system is like the Dwarfs because both factions are close yet distinctively different enough to be incorporated this way. They are allies then they are not. To me this is the best way and as long as those three methods are met. I am content.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 18. Dez 2016, 07:31
Your ideas have merit, but I would caution you against becoming too attached to a Dwarf like system, as it may not be flexible enough for 2 very different fractions such as Harad and Rhun.
At this point without an idea of how possible a Dwarf like system is, I hope a team member weighs in on its feasibility.
I shall pose to you several questions if a Dwarf like system was possible.
1. What would Rhun's outposts be, if Harad got Umbar and Khand? Please suggests something, for I can not come up with ideas.
2. If it turned out both fractions had to use the same fortress, how would Murkamil be handled? If the fortress is not walled it does an injustice to Rhun, and if it is it prevents Murkamil from being built; and Harad has both Umbar and Khand as subfractions so there is not space for a recruitment building on an external plot.
About whether Rhun met Dark Numenorians, I would refute; the area where Rhun lies is landlocked and its on the longitude the DN avoided due to the elves.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 18. Dez 2016, 07:59
lordoflinks

You bring up some very good points.

1. I think the Mumak pin could be built on the settlements along with the Harad farm and mill. The Outpost for Harad would simply be Umbar while Rhun got Khand. If you don't like the idea of Khand being with Rhun (since they are between Rhun and Harad and could go with either one), then I would do a Balcoth or Wainrider outpost.

2. I believe I solved the Mumak problem as they would have to be built outside the fortress. Let's be honest Rhun and Harad would both have fortresses, so I think a generic fortress would be suitable.

Well the King's Men colonized many areas, it is speculation whether they met Rhun or not, we know Harad they've met, so they had to have established trade with Rhun, so...I don't know but like i said. If the coders can do it, then I feel this would be the best option. But as long as the faction of Evil Men are combined and we get 3 or 4 Ringheroes. I am satisfied.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 18. Dez 2016, 08:32
In the end I doubt any of these ideas will matter, but I will say this. I do prefer my idea of a single combined fraction, for while it may not take into account the fact Rhun and Harad may have fought, I feel it offers the best function if a Dwarf style system is not possible.
If it is, I leave the proposal of a Dwarf style system to you, as I don't feel like writing a third proposal for the Evil Men, for while I love Rhun; I don't love them that much. 
Feel free to use any/all of my ideas; and I am more than happy to aid in any way. I shall say, I will write up a detailed proposal for Dorwinion.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 18. Dez 2016, 16:48
LordofLinks, that would be great!  :)

I am totally in 100% agreement with you and I hope the community is.

If the Dwarf system is possible, do it a combined way of LordofLinks and Dkbluewizard.
If the system is not possible, then do it totally the way LordofLinks has suggested.

I think both ideas are excellent canonical additions to the game and I think all of us would just love it! Thanks for your input LordofLinks, I look forward to seeing a Dorwinion proposal, I have one already listed, but if you would like to enhance it, I am all for it as you have some darn good ideas!
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 19. Dez 2016, 19:52
To everyone in concern of the Evil Men faction.

Drawing upon the idea of LordofLinks and that one of the heroes should be the "Priest of Morgoth" since he probably had a temple build in the east when he corrupted the men--I figured out the identity of the Priest of Morgoth who could be used with the "Evil Men" faction.

Tolkien Gateway and LOTR wiki both discuss him, he is referenced in the Silmarillion (Morgoth leaving behind lesser servants for he feared about the battles in beleriand) and other notes by JRR Tolkien, and it states that he never died or what happened to him.

So now I present to you guys the Priest of Morgoth: Fankil.

You can read all about Fankil here: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Fankil & http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Wicked_dwarves

Fankil could be a Dark Purple mage looking character and I feel he is canonical and is a good addition to the faction as he was the one that was left behind to corrupt the Evil Men in the first place.

Also I wanted to add this for reference: http://merp.wikia.com/wiki/Fankil

Now I am for someone different and non-canon, however, just make them a Dark Purple looking mage.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 25. Dez 2016, 18:03
LordofLinks,

disregard my post above. The Evil Men faction should have only Evil Men for Ringheroes as you suggested. I still feel we need 4 ringheroes though: Lord of Umbar, Suladan, King of Khand, and Rhun Emperor.

Fankil is too powerful and we don't know much about him, and evil already gets a bunch of super ringheroes: Sauron, Smaug, Saruman, Alatar (with Dorwinion eventually), etc.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 29. Dez 2016, 13:42
I would only be in favour of the King of Khand being a ring hero if the fractions were split up; otherwise there is no need to have four.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 30. Dez 2016, 04:38
But LordofLinks,

If we implement the Evil Men faction as all one faction, who is to say that each King wouldn't want the ring for themselves?

Also, instead of calling the starting castle Rhun, could we just call it Evil Men citadel? Or something, I feel like giving the Evil Men a Rhun fortress focuses on Rhun too much. I agree with all your proposals, but lets just call the fortress the "Evil Men fort" or something. Maybe since there unity with Sauron, they had special forts like these built for them? Might be a possibility since the Ringwraiths managed most of these regions and would have similar buildings erected for the kingdoms of Sauron, and the rulers could still want to oust Sauron if they got the One Ring. I really see this a possibility with the Lord of Umbar since he would be a black numenorian.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 30. Dez 2016, 07:24
With regards to ring heroes it is not that Khand would not want it; but rather I think it would be difficult coming up for a ring mechanic for the Khan that would be unique as compared to the leader of Harad and balanced; as the Khan is intended to be a scout hero that supports the Khand settlement building, if such a way could be found however I would be in favour but I can not think of one.
With regards to the fortress it is more aesthetic; in my concept the only buildings you would build in the fortress would be Rhun buildings so it would look silly to have black steel walls and red and gold buildings. Umbar in my concept is represented through a outpost that can be upgraded once to a Black Numeorian outpost (Think something similar to Angmar's system for outposts)
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 30. Dez 2016, 16:07
Well I know your position LordofLinks.

I am more in favor (as you know) of a Dwarf implemented system. So you start off with a "Evil Men Fortress" and whatever faction you choose (Rhun or Harad) makes the Fortress that color.

The units I think would function very similarly. I mean, both would have swordsmen, spearmen, etc. I don't have to go into how different the 3 Dwarf kingdoms are, you can just see it with their units (IE axethrowers, crossbowmen, etc)

So I am more in favor of Evil Men being implemented the Dwarf way, that is why I suggest 4 ringheroes. Two for Harad and Two for Rhun, while incorporating your outpost ideas for each faction (Umbar for Harad, but Khand for Rhun).

I still feel we can implement all your ideas through this system and I think it would help evil in the factions department, now I know you stated that there would be 5 good and 5 evil, but if you really look at the factions in-depth and see what is posted on Edain Wiki, the final factions list would be as follows (with our ideas included):

Good
3 Men: Arnor, Gondor, Rohan
3 Dwarfs: Ered Luin, Iron Hills, Erebor
3 Elves: Imladris, Lothlorien, Dorwinion Court

Evil
Mordor, Isengard, Angmar
Misty Mountains, Dorwinion Cult
Rhun, Harad

So good will have 9 factions and evil 7, I would like to see Rhun and Harad implemented in the Evil Men faction this way not just for the above reason, but because Harad and Rhun were very distinct from each other. They CAN do it with the Dwarfs, I feel this can be done for this faction, No I KNOW it can be done for this faction.




Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Lord Aytugar am 1. Jan 2017, 08:44
Hey dkbluewizard

I have some ideas to share for this faction. I have written some of them on Moddb. My opinion about this 'Easterlings and Southrons' named faction is maybe not entirely but categoricly summer form of Angmar. General system is Rhun starts; wind mill, variag tent of Khand, corsair tavern of Umbar are settlements and Haradrim Camp is outpost. The relationship with Angmar is hero-center that meaning of the Witch King is Khamul for Rhun. We know Rhun was an alliance to Mordor at Khamul's time. However there is influence of Sauron and WK, not equally but similarly must be in this faction.

Buildings of Rhun can be wine-market(can be used for Dorwion also) ,seafood-market, armory(banner carrier,forged blades, shield for infantry and cavalry, fire arrows), barrack(rhun soldiers, archers, spearmen), stable(rhun riders, wainriders(selectable for wagon or chariot)), temple of Melkor(sorcerers and illusioners which use fire/flame and shadow), tower, statue of sauron.

On the settlements variang tent recruits axe-men infantry and cavalry. Orginally BFME 2 used corsairs for light infantry like Dunland clan for Isengard, i am intent to do it that way. So tavern should be on settlement and recruit corsair plunderers and archers, plus ballista, maybe assassins max 3 time.

Haradrim Camp is very questionable to be seperated faction. Being solo faction to Harad makes Rhun so weak. Also Harad do not have direct relationship to Sauron over a ringwraith. Rhun is more defensive but like half-cavalry faction, it cames from far lands. They do not have siege machines their own, to do that they need a settlement or an outpost. Agression of Harad is really force for Rhun. Their fortress can be like RJ Rotwk mod's: in the front statue of dragons can fires or snakes, buildings are farm, haradrim palace(haradrim warriors, archers, spearmen can switch throwing and black serpents max 3), mumakil pen(mumakils and half-trolls).

Rhun economy is based on trade so we need to use this. Building level up system is like dwarves when markets and wind mill get level 3, others would levels up except Temple. Temple can one level up after Fankil's created, then maybe Fankil gets level 5 because it is connected directly to Melkor through Fankil, not to economy.

Heroes would be Khamul the Black Easterling(building supporter?), Fankil(mage or unit support), Suladan(mass slayer), Saleme(hero killer), Brodda or Lorgan King of Rhun, Sakerlan King of Khand(could be building destroyer), Castamyr Lord of Umbar PJ ;)

Ring hero system is very different. These men do not have  an ethical rule nor discipline. Their reputation is not trusted or reliable. Everyone betrays the others when has the chance to be rich or get the power. So each hero must be ring hero but ones they picked up the ring they shall not have for second time. The influence of ring is different for every hero, Khamul and Fankil shine through but when the others get the ring can be rich or being a commander of large armies. Fankil can turn into a new Sauron and Khamul can make every allied building %25 faster.

For spellbook i will not say so much before approvement of these. Somehow it can be done, there are scorpions, snakes, sank storm, etc to use.

I hope it is not over powered. Heroes and their rolls or units can change actually everything can change. I just wonder what is your comment.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 1. Jan 2017, 12:14
Several things I would like to address Lord Aytugar, while some of your ideas are good others need to be worked on.

As far as some of the hero names are concerned, I feel you have done a good job at writing them out. However, as I stated, Fankil should not be with the Evil Men faction as he is a Maia and Evil has enough powerful evil maia on their side.

Now in regards to Khamul, he is implemented with Mordor, now I understand that you want him with Rhun like WK is with Angmar, but you have to remember that the Evil Men faction is during the time of WOTR, which means Khamul is acting out with Sauron's Mordor units. He cannot be a hero with this faction and I feel the Evil Men should have only "Evil Men" as heroes, much the same way Rohan doesn't have anyone outside of Middle Men/Rohirrim.

As I have stated earlier, I feel the Evil Men faction has to be done the way the Dwarfs are implemented, as I feel that is more canonical and true to their nature as Evil Men. They are just as likely to fight each other as anyone else (it is a power struggle).

Your ideas were good and I can tell some time and thought went into them (which I appreciate a lot) however, as stated earlier the system has to be split like the Dwarfs.

If it could be done, I would be in more favor of a Khand, Umbar, Rhun and Harad all being their own factions that we could pick from the Evil Men fortress with their being One Ring hero for each faction. I think this would be cool and then their would be 9 Good factions total and 9 Evil factions. Khand's subfaction could be Rhun and vice versa. Umbar's subfaction could be Harad and vice versa.

This may be too much work, but that would be the best system that would compliment everything we have done. LordofLinks, perhaps you could google drive this if you have the chance? Maybe we still need to flush some more things out though.

Thank you both for the awesome posts and ideas Lord Aytugar and LordofLinks, keep them coming!
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 1. Jan 2017, 14:01
Having all 4 men be their own fraction would be unfeasible; both from the fact you could not come up with enough unique buildings (I shudder at coming up with a whole roster of units and buildings for Khand) and it makes it seem they were all equal. They were not; really Umbar and Khand should be subfractions to Harad and Rhun respectively as while Umbar may be independent (Hello Melkor worshippers...) its not big enough to be its own fraction.
I shall create a document based on my concept which was one fraction; in such a case Rhun would have walls such as the ones seen in Glofindal's rhun map only with the roofs risen up so units can walk on them, and the walls become red upon researching the upgrade. After I have done so we can look into a dwarf system but first I would like you to see a visual representation of my concept. The King of Rhun is now named Dragon-King as a allusion to the fact that Khamul once held that title.
Final point in response to Lord Aytugar; I would not grant magic to Rhun as I felt they always were a evil gondor who had no need for it; rather I would give them weapons based on greek fire.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Lord Aytugar am 1. Jan 2017, 21:31
Dkbluewizard, LordofLinks

I see both comments of yours and i understand the reasons of each idea. I understand my Khamul idea was not proper for that age. Despite i am not agaist the idea of dkbluewizard 2 separated factions, i think it is irrelevant strategicly. Rhun is defensive and Harad is not. Even spellbooks match entirely or ring hero systems rework, how can the tactical problem solve?

On the other hand lordoflinks's opinion is more fitting mine. Especially Tribal, Confederate and Imperial upgrade system is magnificent. But i prefer half-trolls instead of summon Variag army. Also Lone Tower spell is not suitable for this faction, i think scorpions or serpents or arrow valley make more sense. Generally the lore and your (ET) imagination bring out excellent results. Nevertheless i believe it would take a long time, i can not measure when will be the final of Edain Mod, i hope its come asap.

Thank you both for comments.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 3. Jan 2017, 06:00
I have come up with what I believe is the best compromise for an Evil Men fraction between those who wish for them to be separate and those who wish them to be in the same fraction, taking into account the community's feedback.
You can find it here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1P6gcEVaor8HkBdzO3EOeDpMsIxbLHbjLiPUB0YBz6A4/edit

My reason for creating another thread is to hopefully create a thread similar to the Dorwinion thread where work on a single concept is being done; rather than the three or four that are floating in the Evil Men thread; and of course I hope this focuses discussion. I ask anything not related to my concept go in the other thread, so this one stays clear.

To those who feel Harad should be a separate fraction I do agree; but such a move would mean it would either have to be a new fraction, removing any chance the lovely Dorwinion concept could be implemented or use a Dwarf like system. The problem with that is that I believe it would mean Harad would have to have the same number of buildings are Rhun, meaning Rhun would either end up not having enough buildings or Harad would have too many, with respect to their portrayals to lore. I say this however, I think Harad works well as an outpost as it allows us to focus on the signature units of Harad, without coming up with standard units, and it represents their tribal nature well. Finally although one may argue it inaccurately portrays the Evil Men as a alliance that never fought each other, this fraction is set during the War of the Ring when they were united under Sauron's banner and there was little to no infighting. I would also like to say Harad, Khand and Umbar are implemented as Outposts, with each one having a unique way of upgrading their outpost.

The name "Men of the Shadow- Servants of Melkor" on the title page of the concept alludes to the fact that all of the Evil Men originally served Melkor, and at least the numenoreans still do.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Walküre am 3. Jan 2017, 15:24
I understand the reasons why you would like your proposal to have its own reserved space, and I respect them. Just, the main Evil Men thread is supposed to gather all contributions that relate to that topic, and people have therefore voted for one of the options of the official poll.

You don't have to worry for order or comprehension issues, as I can easily modify the entire thread at will, editing comments at the beginning of the thread or even splitting topics from the primary course of the discussion. When the proper time comes, I will reorder everything and bring the thread to the public light of the Edain boards again. Fortunately, nothing gets lost in this forum. Your main concern should only be the one of discussing and developing your own ideas. Leave all the technical aspects to me, as this is my duty  :)

An excessive fragmentation of concepts or proliferation of new topics wouldn't help the other people during the phases of the debate. It's better to follow these guidelines for now.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Lord Aytugar am 13. Jan 2017, 16:00
DieWalküre

I have heard some rumors about ending ET after MM released. Is this true? Evilmen and Dorwinion factions cancelled?
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Fredius am 13. Jan 2017, 16:05
Where did you get that info?
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Walküre am 13. Jan 2017, 16:32
DieWalküre

I have heard some rumors about ending ET after MM released. Is this true? Evilmen and Dorwinion factions cancelled?

This is a totally unsubstantiated information. The Edain Team has not revealed anything concerning their plans after the Misty Mountains yet. What made you assume that they want to 'finish' the project in that way?
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Lord Aytugar am 13. Jan 2017, 17:52
Firstly a friend of mine from local forum site told me that FG15 denied repeatedly new factions after MM on moddb. Also he said implementation of these faction to BFME 1 system takes so many times and team will not do that and graduate. And after that i checked dorwinion consept link and it is broken. So i thought maybe i did not noticed this decision.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 13. Jan 2017, 18:01
The Dorwinion Concept link was only broken before it had been improperly linked, it was missing a parenthesis.
Here (http://edain.wikia.com/wiki/Dorwinion)
and as a failsafe, here (http://edain.wikia.com/wiki/Dorwinion_(Concept)).
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Walküre am 13. Jan 2017, 18:16
Firstly a friend of mine from local forum site told me that FG15 denied repeatedly new factions after MM on moddb. Also he said implementation of these faction to BFME 1 system takes so many times and team will not do that and graduate.

Your friend probably assumed wrong things. I follow ModDB regularly and I've never read anything similar. The Edain Team has always stated that there is space left for two factions (after the Misty Mountains), but they never announced anything official of their plans yet (since there are other priorities). There is then a big difference from saying that they have no intention to work on future factions.

If you have any doubt whatsoever, just check the official news of ModDB or of MU, or simply ask Moderators. Otherwise, you're not likely to find reliable information elsewhere (especially from other people's rumours).
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Lord Aytugar am 13. Jan 2017, 19:42
The_Necromancer0 and DieWalküre

I want to thank you both. I never believed that idea, but i had to check this information. I called him friend because of forum courtesy not my friend. After the link of Dorwinion consept is broken, i had doubts but it is good to know that the mod is go on.

He said after Adamin left, others turn their way into their professionel lifes and Glorfindel53 will release Evil Men faction. I told him the mod will continue without depending one person. The best way is asking DieWalküre for confirmation, i thought. I will correct him as my pleasure :)

PS: I just learnt a word in German but i don't know it spells correctly but i hope it fits for this situation: Schadenfroh :)
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: FG15 am 14. Jan 2017, 14:55
Firstly a friend of mine from local forum site told me that FG15 denied repeatedly new factions after MM on moddb. Also he said implementation of these faction to BFME 1 system takes so many times and team will not do that and graduate. And after that i checked dorwinion consept link and it is broken. So i thought maybe i did not noticed this decision.

I have definetly never said anything of that kind. I don't know what your fried misunderstood.

There won't be any new factions before the Misty Mountains are released. Misty Mountains is the most complex faction because it doesn't completly use the BfME 1 building system. Also many other systems changed during the development of Edain 4.x, so Misty Mountains have to be adapted to these changes.

After all the factions are released, there are two more factions plannend, so concepts for new factions aren't needed. But these factions shouldn't be expected too soon.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Lord Aytugar am 14. Jan 2017, 16:18
Firstly a friend of mine from local forum site told me that FG15 denied repeatedly new factions after MM on moddb. Also he said implementation of these faction to BFME 1 system takes so many times and team will not do that and graduate. And after that i checked dorwinion consept link and it is broken. So i thought maybe i did not noticed this decision.

I have definetly never said anything of that kind. I don't know what your fried misunderstood.

There won't be any new factions before the Misty Mountains are released. Misty Mountains is the most complex faction because it doesn't completly use the BfME 1 building system. Also many other systems changed during the development of Edain 4.x, so Misty Mountains have to be adapted to these changes.

After all the factions are released, there are two more factions plannend, so concepts for new factions aren't needed. But these factions shouldn't be expected too soon.

Thank you for clearing that up. That man must totaly be misunderstand. I let him know the truth.

We can guess that new factions will not come soon from MM releasing time. So we are looking forward to see completed Edain Mod.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Shadowxgate am 22. Jan 2017, 11:14
i just got an idea for evil men, im not sure how doable it is but just a fun concept to work with.
in lord of the rings haradrim carried their houses/palaces on the back of mumaks, so what if they had mumaks instead of building slots. sort of you build a mumak pen (lets say they could be the mirkwood of evil men) and from there you build mumaks and from the mumaks you build haradrim. its also fun because you can be in on the action and still get reinforcements
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 22. Jan 2017, 11:46
@shadowxgate Fun idea, but I think that would lead to a LOT of bugs, and the AI may find it a bit hard

I am pleased to announce the concept here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1P6gcEVaor8HkBdzO3EOeDpMsIxbLHbjLiPUB0YBz6A4/edit
is finished, gameplay wise.
A few things to note:
1. The Emperor is set up as a parallel to Aragon, but unlike argaon who had his kingship assured for him, Ulfang had to claw it bit by bit, and this is reflected in how Rhun moves from a collection of tribes, to a confederacy and finally to a Empire 
2. Ulfang's ring ability, mounting dragon, may seem ridiculous but if echos Rhun's obsession with dragons (Look at their amour) and fills a gap in Rhuns roster, as they lack effective siege
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 22. Jan 2017, 12:41
I like most of the ideas that are there now. The whole concept seems really well thought out. A couple of thoughts:

There seems to be a lot more heroes than in other factions with over 3 heroes for each region. The heroes overlap with each other in their roles. Could the amount of heroes be reduced and have their roles be more concentrated?

One thing that the evil men were known for in the War of the Ring was continuing to fight to the end, even when the other armies of Mordor had fled or been destroyed. Could this be added in some way in the spellbook? Maybe, instead of the firestorm, the tier 4 power could make all units in a selected area invincible and immune to knockback. Another idea could be that Suladan or Ulfang could make all surrounding units immune to knockback as a passive.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 22. Jan 2017, 22:40
I like most of the ideas that are there now. The whole concept seems really well thought out. A couple of thoughts:

There seems to be a lot more heroes than in other factions with over 3 heroes for each region. The heroes overlap with each other in their roles. Could the amount of heroes be reduced and have their roles be more concentrated?

One thing that the evil men were known for in the War of the Ring was continuing to fight to the end, even when the other armies of Mordor had fled or been destroyed. Could this be added in some way in the spellbook? Maybe, instead of the firestorm, the tier 4 power could make all units in a selected area invincible and immune to knockback. Another idea could be that Suladan or Ulfang could make all surrounding units immune to knockback as a passive.
If you have any suggestions regarding heroes, feel free to speak your mind and add a note to the document. I do not know the best to reduce heroes roles effectively so suggestions here would help. 
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 23. Jan 2017, 21:38
Will there be an actual restriction on subfactions (for example, if you choose Harad, you can't do anything Umbar or Khand related) or is it just limited by the amount of outposts on the map? Also, I'm assuming that the Harad, Umbar and Khand heroes can only be bought from their outposts. If this is the case, then forget what I said about having too many heroes as you'd probably only be able to get about half the total amount of heroes in one game and this would help influence which sub faction you choose.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 25. Jan 2017, 07:14
You pick a fraction to ally with at the beginning. You can only build that outpost, but regardless everyone gets all settlements regardless to show how even if you don't ally with Khand or Umbar they still send support.   
Suladan aura now prevents knockback.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: FilipGeorg95 am 4. Feb 2017, 16:51
Guys, I have done a research and stated my thoughts about the possibility of this faction to emerge on day :) Hope that you will find interesting things in the proposal and I will gladly like to discuss more and hear your statements, critics and unique ideas :D
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4gnsKlciNEDTG56a2tmTTZyeE0/view?usp=drive_web
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 4. Feb 2017, 23:10
My major concern about your idea FilipGeorg95 is that it seems a bit mashed together, what I mean by that is that if my interpretation is correct you are saying you recruit Khand, Harad and Rhun units all from the same base, and the problem is that is that the three realms are very very different, and the Edain Mod has been trying to keep nations apart, such as separating them into outposts and bases, and by putting all three realms together you do each an injustice. The Cataphact of Rhun is also a really iconic unit for Rhun and so it is missed dearly in your proposal.   
I would suggest looking at my concept here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1P6gcEVaor8HkBdzO3EOeDpMsIxbLHbjLiPUB0YBz6A4/edit
for inspiration on how to handle such radically different realms, and as a model on how you can structure your proposal as it currently is a bit unclear.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: FilipGeorg95 am 5. Feb 2017, 12:01
My concept was made from what we know from the lore, drawings, concept art, movies. Yes, I have combined them together even though there can be a possibility to use some realms as outpost possibility.
Also, I don't like all of Games Workshop miniatures given for these four realms, instead I prefer what we know from the books. Apart from that, I leave open space for everyone to discuss about this theme that is why in my concept I left open space for outpost and heroes variations.
Also I tried to structure them with all aspects given for how a faction should look like and therefore I wanted to give a closer look from history ( note that Tolkien uses parts of mythology and history as well ) in order to fit them in Edain style.
Also I think that if we fill them with such various units such as Templars or magicians wouldn't fill their role as numerous allies able to field vast armies armed for war, but cultists who prefer magic and small elite that will destroy everything.
The concept was based during the War of the Ring because the mod is about that war combined with the events in the Hobbit. I agree that during the Second Age and later, in the Third Age the numenoreans held the city of Umbar and Wainriders stroke fear in the hearts of gondorians, but those events were long ended and gone.
My point is to give them a diverse gameplay which I stated in the ring system and hero system.
I hope that after all, there could be a way out to use both concepts in order to create a faction which deserves its appearance in this mod.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 5. Feb 2017, 13:35
Please do not take any of my below comments personally, as I shall be brutally honest,  with you. My thoughts are below in no particular order
I don't think I can ever like your concept but I think my above advice will help you convince others to like it. Have a lovely day.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: FilipGeorg95 am 5. Feb 2017, 14:10
About the Misty Mountains faction, none of the community has clear picture of their new system in Edain 4.0. In the previous version of 3.8.1 they used hero upgrade system but that version is old.
About the magicians I think that they would be added in the concept for Dorwinion which can be seen here on MU forums and Edain Wiki.
About the table system, I would say that it is up to the one who is constructing the whole concept, I personally prefer essays because that is my real life profession and thus I have stated everything in sub-topics in the whole concept with using Bold-ed letters. Apart from that I leave space for the outpost concept and heroes which I clearly wrote in the essay and concerning about the chariots, in my second page I exposed a sentence from Tolkien describing what Frodo saw at Amon Hen while using the Ring and apart of all the horrors, he saw army of the East leaded by warlords on chariots/wains.
And lastly, I appreciate Your advice, and also have a good day
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Garlodur am 9. Mär 2017, 18:57
Greetings Companions of Edain,

I have come to this deeply hidden part of the forum to share my concept of a Men of Darkness faction with you.

Men of Darkness

Summed up, this faction concept includes Evil Men allied with Sauron at the time of the War of the Ring, essentially divided into Easterlings from Rhûn, Haradrim/Southrons from Harad, Variag from Khand, and Corsairs/Black Numenoreans from Umbar. Each subfaction will fill a specific niche on the battlefield, with the main axis the faction being versatility. Each subfaction has different strategic and tactical utility to the extent that in some games it might be necessary to focus efforts into a combination of several, as opposed to a very linear and supportive mechanism of one main faction with subordinated units from subfactions.

The proposal as a whole can be viewed through this link:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6ZAJba8AKiTa09pZWZyNXFRazg/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6ZAJba8AKiTa09pZWZyNXFRazg/view?usp=sharing)

NOTE: I have been working on this proposal for roughly a year at different intensities, trying to follow the decisions, philosophy and tendencies of the Edain Team. However, I do not have experience in modding this game, so do not hold me accountable for technically impossible mechanisms; in fact, I have tried to fit my ideas into what I know ET to be capable of.

In concrete I want to present the heroes of this faction, as I deem this to be the most completed part of the proposal, which I am also very proud of.

Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Fredius am 9. Mär 2017, 20:17
Well done on this concept, I agree with the most part of it :). Personally I prefer the option in which the player chooses if they want either Harad or Rhun as their main base, but I believe that is (sadly) technically not possible; if it ain't possible then I would choose Rhun as the main base, since I like the red wood and golden roofs design of vanilla BFME2 :).
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 10. Mär 2017, 12:50
I am very impressed however I do disagree on a few points:
1. I feel personally Khamul has too much of an influence in you concept; during the time period of the WotR he was the captain of Dol Guldur and so it feels odd that he would leave to deal with the East, rather I think there should be a separate Easterling Emperor, mind you I am biased as I have my own concept. (Personally I think Khamul is suited as an ultimate spell to capture his true might and power); also they can't start with Kamul in WotR as then you have two khamuls walking around if Mordor is in the game (Angmar is acceptable as they are not set in WotR)
2. One game play concern I have is that Khamul as a ring hero seems very OP as a player could wait till they find the ring and spawn him on top of it, which seems unfair to the enemy
3. About your interpretation of the Variags, I feel gameplay wise they should be a pure mongolian horde so they do not clash with the Black Numenoreans in term of themes and role
4. What about the Dragon Throne giving Rhun a full wall as an idea? (I believe that is technically possible)   
5. I hope if your concept is used the greek designs are not, as in my mind they fit better in Dorwinion
6. Nice going merging Suldan and the Golden King (I did not even know Suldan was in the Edain mod)
Overall I have felt your concept is very impressive and I think if any concept will be chosen in this thread it will be yours (This is me conceding defeat...) although personally I prefer my own (as it is natural) as I am a sucker for symmetry and structure and that is what my concept embodies.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Morwereth am 10. Mär 2017, 12:58
  As far as I remember, Castamir was a Gondorian admiral who dethroned King Eldacar by civil war. He ruled around 8 years and eventually got killed by Eldacar's himself when he returned with reinforcements. His sons escaped to Umbar and possibly became leaders of Corsairs.

  My point is, Castamir died long time ago before War of the Ring. I'd like to suggest adding heir(s) of Castamir as a corsair hero to possible evil man faction, instead of himself or hero who shares the same name. It would be more lore friendly in my opinion.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 10. Mär 2017, 18:27
This is a very interesting proposal. I like the fact that you start in Rhun and then work with other groups of evil men depending on your strategy. The idea of the Bazaar that allows you to specialise in a sub-faction is also interesting. One idea could be that the Bazaar also provides trade deals with each sub-faction. For example, if you have a trade deal with Harad, the Harad buildings produce a small amount of resources. The Bazaar itself would have to be more expensive. This is just me speculating though so feel free to ignore all of it.

I also like the unique heroes like the War Priest and the Scorpion Lord (although I'm still not sure how Amdur works). I think I agree with lordoflinks regarding Khamul. He seems to have too big of a role in Evil Men, especially since he is also one of Mordor's most powerful heroes. He is best as temporary summon who disrupts enemy buildings and units.

If only one of Saleme and Murakhan is kept, then there may need to be another hero in the faction. One role that I think could be filled would be a leader of Rhun as Amdur seems to be more like an elite warrior and tank than a leader. This leader could be made as a Ring Hero as a contrast to Suladan.

This is just more of me thinking of ideas. I think Umbar would have a emphasis on slaves. They are descendants of the Black Numenoreans from the Second Age who took slaves when they came to Middle Earth. They also used slaves to row their boats (Aragorn freed them when the Army of the Dead attacked the Corsair fleet). I don't know if this can be implemented, but there could be spell book power that recharges as enemy units are killed. When it is full, you have to option to immediately earn some money (selling the slaves) or to boost the production of a target structure (use the slaves as a work force). I also think Men of Darkness would have a close connection to Morgoth/Sauron and would worship them (the Numenoreans of the Second Age worshipped Morgoth while the Men of Darkness though Sauron was "both king and god"). They may make sacrifices to them to gain some sort of blessing. This could be implemented with the slave system. You would have the option to sacrifice the slaves. All units across the map would gain +30% damage for 1 minute but would earn no experience for this time.
Again, feel free to ignore these ideas if you think they don't work.

Regarding the name of Castamir, although a new name could be made, men in Middle Earth have been known to use their ancestors names before. For example, there have been 2 Aragorns, 2 Boromirs, and 2 Denethors.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 12. Mär 2017, 10:11
Two additional thematic concerns I think are:
1. The absence of the steel bow; I believe it is a very cool weapon and the best place for it is Umbar
2. I do not believe you should be able to build Black Easterlings, in my opinion they are a very special unit that should remain as a summon from Khamul only. Rather the Easterlings should get their own unique infantry such as a "Dragon Guard."
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Garlodur am 12. Mär 2017, 22:34
Thank you everyone for your kind feedback. I invite to delve into critically analysing the proposal in search of questions regarding theme, balance, style, gameplay, originality, and technicalities.

I will clear up the questions so far:

@Morwereth: The name Castamir links to an historical character in Middle-Earth, I am aware of that. I did this for the exact reason that names are reused in other instances, indicated by Oakenshield224: they are meant to remind us of these characters. I have thus build the character of Castamir (the Second if you will) on the basis of revenge for his ancestor Castamir the Usurper: I believe this is a very interesting position to start from because it gives the hero a background story far more realistic than a simple Corsair Captain who wants loot and booze.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 13. Mär 2017, 13:02
This is going to be a long post so I hope you are ready.
Garlodur, I shall address your concerns first by explaining my feedback with your idea and then I shall explain why I did the things I did in my concept so you can understand my viewpoint.
1. Feedback on your Proposal

I hope my explanation has been sufficient. Please ask me if you have any questions. My comment about conceding defeat was meant in jest as an expression of how impressed I was with your concept, and the extreme likelihood that if any concept will be picked it will be yours.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Garlodur am 2. Apr 2017, 21:03
Here I am finally with a reaction to you, lordoflinks. I have been away for a bit due to study occupations. First of all, thank you for your feedback. Let's discuss some of it as far as it fits in one post in a structured way.


With regards to your explanation on the differences in our concepts I have come up with an idea of shaping the Men of Darkness more to the faction of people's liking.

At the start of each game the Easterling castle will be built in a regular way. When you click on the citadel you will then have the option to choose to upgrade right away into a particular subfaction for free. This choice affects your starting units and allows buildings to level up in time. Later in the game, you can choose to upgrade the other subfactions as well so that you can pull together the full might of the Men of Darkness.


I would like to hear all your thoughts on this implementation, whether it's feasible, strategically interesting, and not too similar to the Dwarves' system.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 5. Apr 2017, 11:20
I've said all I have needed to say really, so I can offer no more thoughts really.
Good luck with the rest of your concept.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: FilipGeorg95 am 31. Dez 2017, 11:47
My concepts for Harad+Umbar as sub-faction and Rhun+Khand as sub-faction. I hope you will like it
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1wuyasSsgwL3EBGGdE1LG3dXqR9hwE46J
https://drive.google.com/open?id=12Sbe0PjQIiMd1nB8obLobm9_29p9SF3_

Filip Georgievski
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 1. Jan 2018, 00:50
Like the awesome work, and it looks great man. Very interesting. Hope some of this is incorporated into the grand fold of things.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 8. Mai 2018, 15:54
Hello Evil Men Fans :) I want to present you one of my last Hero concept i made. I put some fantasy in it and i have lot of fun during the creation. However, you will notice that the character is not totally invented but is actually based on lore. The starting goal of my work it was in fact to explore the identity of unknown Nazguls. In particular i was inspired by one of the armor from BOTFA, as you will see below.
Note that i'm not posting it for a definitive judgment (the usual FOR/AGAINST list), because it would be simply to early to do that. Moreover, i currently don't have a clear idea about how this character would be actually introduced in the faction (via spellbook, external outopost, or whaever), since all about Evil Men faction is unknown and open to discussion. it is really incredible how detailed your ideas and plans are in this thread. It is a really creative place and i'm actually posting this concept keeping this exact spirit  xD
So let me know all your opinion: what do you think about lore connection i made? What about this precise design and do you like other Nazgul armor that currently can't be implemented?
I thank Filip because he gave me his opinion and help me for some details  :)


HERUMOR: THE CRUEL NUMENOREAN KING

(https://image.ibb.co/irKOPS/Herumorking.png)

Zitat von: The Silmarillion
"But because of the power of Gil-galad these renegades, lords both mighty and evil,
for the most part took up their abodes in the southlands far away; yet two there were,
Herumor and Fuinur, who rose to power among the Haradrim,
a great and cruel people that dwelt in the wide lands south of Mordor beyond
the mouths of Anduin."

"Herumor: A renegade Númenórean who became mighty among the Haradrim at the end of the Second Age."

LORE AND HYPOTHESIS

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/d/dc/250px-Brian_Durfee_-_Black_N%C3%BAmen%C3%B3reans.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20180407165420)

As you can see i quoted above the Tolkien writings about Herumor. Both him and his brother Fuinur, were black Numenorean that estiblished their domain in Harad after the downfall of Numenor. Both were powerful and cruel allies who served Sauron during the second age. I do believe like many fans that they finally become both Nazgûl enslaved by two of the nine rings. Evetually, they have been forsaken and finally forgotten by their own folk along with their names and personalities.
I saw that for example MorgulLord (creator of BOTTA) introduced in his mod a similar Nazgûl (same armor shown below), naming the character Ji Indur. It is a widely used name across the web, but it is actually a fictional name which comes from  Middle-earth Role Playing game (MERP) published by Iron Crown Enterprises.
In my opinion Herumor and Fuinur are the most valid and lore-friendly hypothesis about two of the unknown identities of the Ringwraiths, given also that their name have been written by the Professor himself.
Actually the fictional nameless title "The Forsaken" comes from Forge World's website, which is a sort of subdivision of Game Workshop. As the team did for the Dark Marshall and Shadow Lord, i would like to keep this title, leaving the story of Herumor as lore background.

HERUMOR: THE FORSAKEN (RINGWRAITH)

(https://image.ibb.co/iLidp7/Herumorpres.png)

What actually triggered and inspired me to craft this concept is the Haradrim-like Nazgûl  we have seen in The Hobbit. I myself like especially this robe along with the one of Khamûl, since they are more sober and clearly shows the orgin of the two damned  kings of men. Instead, i deem the other BOTFA armor (WK included) quite strange and too much full of details and not worth to be implemented. Pheraphs also the Dark Headsman (the one with axe) is acceptable, but with adjusting some details. Here below the three ringwraiths and the miniature from FW:

(https://warofsigmar.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/blogging/picture3/1455/Screenshot_2016-12-05_13.26.23.png)

(https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/catalog/product/threeSixty/99551466008_NazgulofDolGuldurThree1360/01.jpg)

Since i don't like so much the shape of the trident, i would actually turn it into a lance. Maybe also enlarging a bit the central blade would be more proper. An example could be the one below:

(http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/37100000/Oberyn-s-Spear-oberyn-martell-37170907-500-282.jpg)

My idea is that The Forsaken's Southern Spear  is a cursed weapon that cause terrible wounds. The Haradrim Wraith was a skilled spear masters in his past life (GOT fans will catch where my inspiration comes from).

THE SOUTHERN NAZGÛL IN GAME

The Forsaken is a terrible vision both for enmies and allies: during his life as man, he was a cruel and mercilessy black Numenorean king who ruled diffusing terror and executing the opponents. Even his wraith form he didn't lose any of his ancient character: wherever he goes he draws life of surrounding lifeform, turning all like an arid desert of the South.
His role in harad faction will be of an hero killer and unit interferer. He will have the same intial stat values of the other two minor Nazgûl (Dark Marshall and Shadow Lord).

(https://image.ibb.co/hVfuZ7/black_horse.png)Level 1: mount/dismount: the Forsaken mounts his black Harad steed.

Classic mounth of a Nazgûl.

(https://image.ibb.co/iTWMgn/Herumorlev2.png)Level 2: Plaguing Aura (passive): wherever The Forsaken goes he draws life of surrounding lifeform, turning all like an arid desert of Harad. Surrouding enemy units lose 10% of attack and armor while enemy heroes' lose 10% of attack and their abilities take 10% longer time to recharge once used.

The classic influence of a Nazgûl with some improvements against heroes.

(https://image.ibb.co/dZ1U1n/haraddesert.png)Level 5: Burning Sand : The Forsaken temporary turns a medium area into a desert terrain. The burning sand slow down severely enemy heroes and units slowly damaging them.

(https://image.ibb.co/bLnrE7/The_Forsaken_Spear.png)Level 8: Cursed Spear : The Forsaken's spear causes terrible and incurable wounds. The selected enemy hero is damaged and marked by the spear for a certain time: every time the marked hero is hit by the lance he lose 5% of armor up to 50%.

An alternative to Morgul Blade which fits best for a spear master

(https://image.ibb.co/foe4Z7/scorpions.png)Level 10: Desert Terror : The Forsaken temporary summons five black scorpion of Harad. These terrible creatures have high single damage thanks to the powerful pinces: they can easly shear off even the best of the armor. Futhermore they have the ability to sting a single unit or hero poisoning him over the time and slowing down due to paralization effect of the venom (-25% of speed).

Scorpion model and animation from vanilla's Gorkil mount (totally out of place in the original game). These monsters are awaken from under the sand to chase down a weak hero or monster eventually finishing the target.


Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 8. Mai 2018, 17:30
From a gameplay point of view, I really like this idea Aule! It fits with the main ideas of a Nazgul while adding some uniqueness that comes with Harad. The main obstacle to do with this would be whether the Team would wish to have the Nazgul in another faction (especially when all 9 are currently in Mordor). That's up to them though. I see you have thought about the lore context of the hero.

I do have one question and one suggestion about the proposal. Firstly, would the effects of Cursed Spear be permanent?

My suggestion concerns the Burning Sand ability. Currently, it seems like you cast it on an area and that area then gets affected. One ability could be that it acts as an enhancement to the Plaguing Aura ability. So you'd activate Burning Sand and the area around the Nazgul would be affected (along with any enemies in that area). If the Nazgul then moves while the ability is active, the corrupted area would follow the Nazgul. It would act as a trail, so it would be left behind for a few seconds and then disappear once the Nazgul has moved away. I don't know if this is technically possible but I hope that you like the idea.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 14. Mai 2018, 00:52
Well Aule, the ideas are great. But if you're going from a lore standpoint which I think is the reason why you included the names for these nazgul--it says that Herumor and Fuinur rose to power AFTER the downfall of Numenor. How could they be nazgul then?

Sorry to be a thorn. But that is what it says unfortunately. I really like the idea. If no one cares about that then lead on!

Oh because the nazgul appear in 2251 Appendix B in the Return of the King. Herumor and his brother are later.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 15. Mai 2018, 14:42
Oak: sorry for the late answer man. You are right is up to them implementing or not Nazguls externally to Mordor. But I would like to see something I propose because it cuold give some pernsonality and characterization to another wraith. The theme of origin of the nine intrigues me, with all the mystery around it.

Dkblue: you're actually right I misplace the first appearance of the Nazguls. I should revise the lore part of the work.
 In fact another interesting point about Harad is the Melkor adoration/dark cult. I thought also to revolve my character around this theme before connecting him to Heromur. He could be an ancient chieftain of Harad (a precursor of Herumor and his brother), who devolve himself to the cult of Morgoth. No information are given about any line of Haradrim kings in the lore.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Garlodur am 16. Mai 2018, 19:23
Interesting concept Aulë!

Though I must agree with dkbluewizard; according to the lore these two figures among the Haradrim only rose to power after the Nazgul were created. You could twist it to say that they were Nazgul in disguise but I don't quite follow that line of thought. It would suggest that, much like the Witch-King, these figures should have been capable of establishing a realm of divided peoples to counter the might of Gondor. Yet the Annals indicate that Gondor was pestered often, never as near to destruction as Arnor: at least of the hands of these two.

Still, you touch upon a topic I am also still struggling to incorporate in my concept above. Perhaps you would like to shed a closer look upon this proposal, although I have been working quite a bit on improving it and bringing points together.

The main topic of confusion for me is Khamul. I want to simultaneously implement him as the central figure of the faction that unites the Men of Darkness for good, and have him play most of his part through influencing other leaders, seeing him as more of a lieutenant (literally 'place-holder') of Sauron. The reason for my suggesting is that Khamul could not have always been amongst the Easterling, Haradrim, Corsairs, Black Numenoreans, Variag etc. because he was also an agent of the Dark Lord's 'secret' service. Most notably is the period between TA 2951 and TA 3018 during which he was stationed in Dol Guldur.

I conclude that the most feasible way of influencing the Men of Darkness was through an established cult, either towards Sauron or Morgoth. Perhaps Khamul was more like a pope is to christianity, or maybe he was more akin in his ways to Annatar, ultimately guiding Haradrim and Easterling leaders to the same fate as Ar-Pharazon the Golden. Or perhaps Khamul reclaimed his former position as king of Easterlings and extended his reign over all Men of the East and South, forming a massive empire or a 'union of republics'

I always appreciate your thoughts
Garlodur
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 16. Mai 2018, 23:45
Aule, your ideas are perfect. Just make up a name or go with one of the other nazgul. It would still work.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: FilipGeorg95 am 17. Mai 2018, 11:48
You might as well read my two concepts that I posted here. I made Harad and Rhun as main factions while Umbar and Khand as their subfactions. Feel free to give feedback in order to improve certain things :) :)
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 18. Mai 2018, 01:07
Aule, your ideas are perfect. Just make up a name or go with one of the other nazgul. It would still work.

It is what i will actually do, going deeper into character's lore and finding a proper haradrim name  ;) One of the first thing i made at the beginning of the project was actually looking for dark/terrible Harad names, that was before i came up (wrongly [ugly]) to the idea of Heromur. But in game it will be unnamed, with only the Title of "The Forsaken".

Garlodur: i read your concept, the one on google drive, it's awesome man! Both you and Filip have done a beautiful job, there's a lot of nice material to discuss!!   xD
I'm not sure about making Khamul the ring hero. But still it seems the most reasonable option. What about connecting the ring function to some dark cult/magic? I would also change the abilities of stadard (no ring) Khamul, in order to contextualize him into the new faction; not simply a copy of the Mordor's one. Maybe we should change his role from building interferer to real supporter for the faction.

I would like to craft also a concept of the Dark Headsman; i'm not only sure if an axe fits for a Nazgul. it seems that this model (from forgeworld/hobbit movie) is the heir  of the old GW miniture of The Knight of Umbar (which is better title anyway). At least is what is theorized on fandom wiki. I saw you put some images of him. The Edain team also got the inspiration from GW about Dark Marshall and Shadow Lord.

Finally, in this way you will have Khamul as chieftain plus The Forsaken and Khight of Umbar, as his minor lieutenants to support him. All three once belong to a specific reign of Evil Men faction: Rhun, Harad and Umbar. Each one of the three will have a specific new set of abilities (totally unique with respect to the Mordor's versions) to underline the fact that they're now walking again on their past lands, which give them strength and some of their ancient power as Kings of Men. What do you guys Think?  ;)
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Lord Aytugar am 22. Mai 2018, 13:33
Hello friends!

After a long time for completing my work, I prepared a consept for Men of Darkness.

The  content focus on  different systems and the mechanic. So I did not see  it is necessary to put some pictures at this step.

I am expecting your comments about it.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1-cOS9vudVGV7rl5IafBI9DCO_yTjx6XO

Edit 1: The original consept has some improvements now. I added a few pictures for new units. I know the implementation of this will take a while, but if you interested in the topic, please comment.

Edit 2: I added a Lieutenant of Melkor over advise of dkbluewizard. Make a place for him is not so easy when considering the balance. The ranks of him revised.


Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 22. Mai 2018, 14:13
 Lord Aytugar, I really liked this concept and how you made the heroes more Low Men and Black Numenorian based. I think the heroes are very canonical and you have some good/cool ideas. Hope to see some of this implemented in the future.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Lord Aytugar am 22. Mai 2018, 14:24
Thank you dkbluewizard. I remember your cool ideas as well, I am glad to hear that from you.

I hope one day we see it happened.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 26. Mai 2018, 05:25
No problem Lord Aytugar. Just a thought also, maybe many of you haven't read the Silmarillion. But it says in the East Morgoth left lesser lieutenants. Who knows what happened to them in the Second and Third Age. But it is all conjecture. But what we do know is that he left lieutenants with the Men of the East. Which they had to be some type of Maia, Beast, or Orc. The story of Fankil in one of Tolkien's notes bears a strong resemblance to this notion.

So if you guys wanted to use any of Morgoth's lieutenants, that is a possibility as well.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Lord Aytugar am 30. Mai 2018, 15:53
Dkbluewizard, I took your advise for Fankil and tried to implement him into the faction. I am sorry for last message. I wrote it because I thought there was no place for him. Now he is available after the central spell. I am wondering your comments about it.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 1. Jun 2018, 03:38
Well your sources are phenomenal! Thank you for making this. Fankil is a good choice and I am pretty sure Morgoth's lesser servants that stayed with the Low Men either had to serve Sauron, flee, or die.

The powers you came up with are great for Fankil but it says he can do all of these at Rank 1. I don't know about summoning a balrog, I think those might be too powerful for him. But I thought all his other powers were unique and well thought out. Maybe a Were-Wyrm? I think since Were-Wyrms exist in the East that might be a better solution.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Lord Aytugar am 1. Jun 2018, 10:50
Dkbluewizard Thank you for feedback. I will be glad after complete this faction.

Fankil can be very useful for this faction. At first I focus on his summoning time, but  now I agree with you that he can not have every skills at once. Every time he is summoned, he gets another ability.

But I disagree with you on the last ability. In the history of Fankil, it says that  the Shadow Flame suddenly awoke in the East who is Muar, Demon of  North, a lesser Balrog.  He is out of controlled, and attacks to enemy building for one shoot. I see it a powerful bond with Melkor as with the influence from him.

I am wondering what is your idea about Ji Indur and Adunaphel? I respect to the different ideas as long as we can discuss them.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 1. Jun 2018, 21:27
I know who Muar is, and if you read MERPS Muar is made up and two, he is enemies with Fankil later after the Fall of Morgoth, and three, Muar is dead by the time of the Third Age. So that wouldn't work at all.

I take it back. Since he is a summon, let him have all abilities immediately.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Lord Aytugar am 1. Jun 2018, 22:41
I tried to help for Men of Darkness faction consept. If the community wants to use it, it is ok. If not, it's ok too. I wasn't expecting anything from here. How much I contributed, I don't know. I believe this consept is very good. But I will not be here anymore because many people out of here was right about this place, some members are really arrogant and unreasonable.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 2. Jun 2018, 18:20
Lord Aytugar, if I have demonstrated that path to you, then I apologize (don't believe I have but).

My reason to contribute is just to make sure everything lines up with the lore like Edain want. But even they bend and break the rules. So I can understand where you are coming from.

I don't delve too much on here either anymore. Though I do comment when I see a great concept formed and your concept is phenomenal. I like it.  I thought you put a lot of hard work and soul into this. You should forward this concept to Lord Ellessar. He is looking to build a Rhun and Harad faction, and I am sure he would take a lot of what you have done into account for his submod.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: tolgayurdal am 18. Jun 2019, 11:29
Greetings everyone!

As known, Edain Team stated that there are two rooms for new factions. One of them might be evil men. I prepared  a Men of Darkness consept which includes Easterlings and Southrons combined. If you have any interest, please check it out!

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1yN7SF3pWgZ2MWKjNrUA6zV9WKGpvXxTD

Edit: In the light of dgsgomes' feedback, some extra units have been cut. Apart from that, since Templar Guards become enemies after Dragon King, Golden King or Pirate King get the ring, Dragon Guards and Serpent Guards are only available then in order to fill heroic unit roster.

The functionalities and structures of Haradrim Outpost and Tavern can be change in time.

Best Regards.

In Favour
dgsgomes
Shadowlord


Against

Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Only True Witchking am 18. Jun 2019, 12:39
Hello tolgayurda!
First off all, I like that you're thinking about that topic, while everyone else apparently abandoned it. Also, hats off that you put the work in to make a full fleshed-out concept, that's impressive.

When I've got the time, I'll make sure to look more closely into it!

Signed,
TheOnlyTrueWitchking
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: tolgayurdal am 18. Jun 2019, 13:24
Thank you TheOnlyTrueWitchking. I am looking forward to see your comments. Also you are right about that, unfortunately this topic lost the former popularity lately. But nevertheless I will not give up to wait for this faction.

Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: tolgayurdal am 10. Jan 2020, 14:14
Greetings everyone!

I re-shaped and edit my former evil men faction concept. Almost everything has been touched in the light of spellbook and siege updates. If you have time and any idea, please check it out and response your feedback.

Best regards.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dgsgomes am 23. Feb 2020, 13:29
tolgayurdal, I have red most of your suggestion; overall, it looks great and very well detailed, but there are a few things that I think that deserves to be discussed:

1- The Harad outpost idea did not seem so great for me; as a more nomad faction without a lot of technology, I think that a compact building which gatters everything together does not fit. Actually, the standard outpost with 3 building plots would probably feel more fitting, or perphaps if most Harad buildings were built on settlements while the other factions were restricted to Castle/Camps or Outposts, I don't know. Anyway, a compact building with many expansions may not look very good.

2- I feel like the amount of different units in the factions make many of them feel unnecessary in terms of gameplay. For example, with Rhun riders and wainriders, why would haradrim riders be needed? With so many chieftains and with Dragon Warriors, why would Black Easterlings be recruited? Actually, removing this 2 unit types would also be great as this would make the correspondent Mordor units even more unique

Summing up, it seems to me that you attempted very hard to reach each factions' full potential (which is great), but perphaps you have gone a little too far. I think that for such a huge proposal work, some things and features, such as the units I've said above, will need to be entirely cut off in order to make everything feel unique and useful. So, are these amount of different units ALL necessary? Do Rhun NEED an Outpost building? Does Umbar need a Settlement building AND an Outpost? Shriking your suggestion is important to make things more practical, including making it easier to people read it, as it is very big (even though it is very well planned).

Anyway, I'm for your suggestion, as there are many cool elements on it which I'd like to see discussed here and possibly be implemented, but I think it can be polished even more. Best regards!
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: tolgayurdal am 23. Feb 2020, 15:34
@dgsgomes,

Thanks for the feedback. I know that there are some parts to be discussed. I am open to anything contributing.

1- About the outposts, i agree Harad to be nomad faction, the problem is implementation of Mumakil Tent. It should not be a hero skill, it needs to be part of their camp. The other buildings can be merged but Slave Farm and Bazaar have different functions up to their culture. The settlement has Khand Encampment already for gathering Southrons. I am not totally against it, but i need to see the alternative design. If it fits, i can gladly change it.

2- I am aware that the unit roster is crowded especially cavalries. It is associated with Rhun Outpost, Rhun should not have regular outpost and Fortress seemed proper which can not train Wainriders. In that case without Wainriders, Rhun doesn't have cavalry but it can be cut because of the faction doesn't need it. Maybe only Rhun King summons them in the last skill. Before Southrons, Easterlings don't have any siege, Black Easterlings suppose to be ram instead. If the player doesn't have an outpost, can not siege enemy castles or outposts.

Haradrim Riders can be cut as long as Khand has cavalry for Southrons. Dragon Guards and Serpent Guards are only heroic units of Rhun and Harad. They are part of ring mechanics but not essential. Removing them provides a room for only heroic units to be Black Numenoreans.

Rhun Outpost? I don't know maybe it is not necessary. It is very soon to bring it up but when the War of the Ring mode is on, every faction might start with outposts. I will remove it when clarified. Umbar Outpost has already a function such as Templar Knight and Black Numenoreans. But Tavern is just useful nothing more, main base can have another settlement. It should not be Harad because of geography. The buildings follow East, Khand territory, Harad Lands and Umbar City. So the alternative is welcomed.

Finally thank you for kind words and feedback again which helps to re-shape the consept. If there are any other suggestions, they can be put on the table. I will add you to the In Favour list after i edit the concept.

Best regards.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Shadowlord am 25. Feb 2020, 23:59
As someone who has been an advocate for a Men of Darkness faction for years. I am glad that someone has made a truly concise, consistent, and overall very well presented concept for the faction. That is well thought out in every sense of the word. If I may ask though, do you have any artwork or a visual reference in mind for your Shadow Priest unit. I am very interested to see your idea on what his design would be.

Overall I am strongly, In Favour of this faction being added to the mod. A truly united Men of Darkness faction, as compared to a Rhun or Harad faction. And I hope the Edain team decides to add a Men of Darkness faction similar to your pitch into the game, after completing the Misty Mountains faction.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: tolgayurdal am 26. Feb 2020, 10:42
Thank you for feedback. Since Shadow Priest is improved version of Priest hero through ultimate defensive spell, he may only receive another robe in black. As long as his role endured, the visuals can be changed, i think. So the artwork is totally up to ET, whatever they like is on.

Also as mentioned, the consept isn't expected before Misty Mountains but i add your name to in favour list.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Loyal Guard T am 2. Mär 2020, 09:52
Good Days, Evil Men fans :)

As known, Men of Darkness faction consept is below with changes every time:


https://drive.google.com/open?id=1G8tklJuAY_GjxH6iAqx9Ui7Uh67ZIK1V


Side by Side, Unto Death.

In Favours

dgsgomes
Shadowlord
dkbluewizard (moddb )
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard2 am 20. Mär 2020, 02:48
I can honestly say I am for this faction. I love everything about it. There is nothing that I feel that I could say to improve what is done on this faction. The canon and well thought out ideas are excellent and Tolkien worthy.

With that said, I only have minor tweeks or suggestions:

Do we have to have Rhun be the main fortress? The Men of Darkness were always invading, couldn't they have more tent like structures and taverns to show they are marching far to war? Rhun, Harad, Umbar, Khand, and Mahuds (jungle) could all have their own cultural look/feel to each of the tents. But overall I picture the "castle" structures to look like a giant version of Rohan's outpost--just with differing looks and color schemes.

This is only a minor suggestion. Otherwise I believe everything to look perfect. If my suggestion is negated, then I am fine with it. The concept overall looks perfect!
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: tolgayurdal am 20. Mär 2020, 10:13
You are right, the castle just does not fit into evil men faction characteristic. Maybe invasion camp would be more suitable, i am not against every argument, only expect another idea to solve the problem. Thanks for helpfull suggestions.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard2 am 20. Mär 2020, 18:18
tolgayurdal, well I am glad that I could help. I was thinking the tent structures would solve the main base issue as they all came together with the goal of destroying the west.

This way you could start with any culture you wanted. But maybe when the Black Numenorian comes and shares the architecture of Numenor with the Low Men, then maybe their giant "tent camp" can change into a fortress like structure.

I don't know how that would work though or how that could be implemented as far as the game goes. But having the Black Numenorian sent by Sauron would improve the defenses of the Men of Darkness.

This is just a suggestion, if you could reply to this and tell me what you think--that would be sublime.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: tolgayurdal am 21. Mär 2020, 09:55
dkbluewizard, your suggestion is really tempting, the tent camp as an outpost can be improved with upgrades through Black Numenorean who is an engineering emissery at the end.

The other outposts and subfactions may be reshaped, Khand has a suitable place on settlements. I think, Harad would not be the same, i can not imagine the recruitment of mumakils and Haradrim troops without Harad outpost. The implementation of Umbar is now questionable, three outposts would be too much unless Mordor and settlement is just not fitting. How about central spell enables Templar Knight and corsairs through one of his skill? I am not sure the dynamic of these, if you have any idea, please share it.

Thanks for contributions :)

Sincerely.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard2 am 22. Mär 2020, 21:22
I am okay with Harad still being an outpost--or we could switch the Tavern to being the outpost for the corsairs and other Umbarian characters. I don't know though. I feel your method is perfect for the faction but merely needs a few tweaks.

I really don't know which outposts would be good--I think these can just be based off of personal preference. Whatever factions aren't included in the castle structure, should be utilized on settlements and outposts.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: tolgayurdal am 23. Mär 2020, 07:45
I could not focussed properly yet, but have an idea. Harad would be an independent outpost for sure, but the second one is an invasion camp which can be upgraded to Easterling or Corsairs, similar to Angmar's. If Easterlings are selected, infantry focussed troops will be recruitable. If Corsairs are choosen, Umbarian units which are siege effective with ballista and corsairs would be accessable.

After the central spell, Black Numenorean will upgrade Corsair invasion camp to Black Numenorean Fortress at level 5 and ultimate defensive spell enables it to recruit Templar Guards.

Please share your ideas dkbluewizard, i believe that with your help, it will become perfect as Edain usual.

This is only an alternative, not my best work (because of real life pushes me harder than used to be). I hope the consept is finalised as soon as possible, othervise have to wait a couple months.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard2 am 24. Mär 2020, 03:28
Tolgayurdal, that idea sounds perfect! I think that would work.  I like that idea the best and feel that those changes should be made. That was the only thing. Otherwise I think your concept is perfect--that is to say it needs nothing else. It is awesome and I think you should present it to the Edain Team after you make these changes.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: tolgayurdal am 24. Mär 2020, 12:09
Thanks dkbluewizard, sorry for delayed answer by the way (i am struggling many things at the same time, work and others). Eventhough i am willing to finalize the consept, if you help me with your feedbacks, i believe that would not take much longer.

Please share your ideas and suggestions, the second view probably determinates the problems and provides solutions.

Best regards.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard2 am 24. Mär 2020, 21:00
I am sorry you are struggling. Stay safe and healthy my friend.  :)
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: tolgayurdal am 24. Mär 2020, 21:42
Thanks :) Time is too precious for all of us. I hope i get more free time to involve this.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard2 am 27. Mär 2020, 00:16
You know, I was thinking, since we have elected to utilize tent structures for the castle systems--why not then do a system like the Dwarfs?

So picture this: We have the tent system for Harad, but their outposts would be Umbar. If we select Rhun then the outpost would be a Khand outpost. And if one were to choose Far Harad the outpost would be half-troll tribes.

This may seem like a crazy idea, but Far Harad's main units should consist of Morwaith people. Think Zulu like with cavalry being Oliphants, Camels, and or Zebras.

You could keep the power tree as is, the only thing that would need to be expanded is the Morwaith units and half-troll tribes.

I think this would be more promising and would function possibly better. I also thought of how the Black Numenorian ability to make numenorian structures could work.

Say the Evil Men are playing against a 8 man faction and Rhun is selected. The Black Numenorian comes and makes the Rhun Chieftain to the Dragon King. If Rhun conquers any other castle base, or if they have the money to purchase a castle base--then the structure becomes like the fortress in your pictures.

I don't know though, since the function would be similar to the Dwarfs--could the structures be changed based on the differing cultures? That is something that needs to be considered.



Oh for a better understanding of Rhun, Harad, and Far Harad troop types--I went to these following links for ideas and they seem to be perfect if we tweaked them to the Edain Mod.

Far Harad:

https://lotrminecraftmod.fandom.com/wiki/Half-trolls_(Faction)

https://lotrminecraftmod.fandom.com/wiki/Morwaith_(Faction)

https://lotrminecraftmod.fandom.com/wiki/Taurethrim_(Faction)


Harad:

As we currently have it with Umbar playing a big part and using Mumaks.

Rhun:

As we have it. Khand would be more fitting as their outpost since they--like Rhun, participated with the Wains.

Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: tolgayurdal am 28. Mär 2020, 21:39
Dkbluewizard,

I believe that Men of Darkness consept has been finalised with your help. There may be some improvements up to feedbacks but seems that now is not the right time. I will answer almost every suggestion and constructive critism anyway. So don't be upset for it is finished my friend, latest edits will be shared here and you are always welcomed.

The path of evil men is done from my part (except above), but this doesn't mean the journeys ended. The last faction remains an enigma because there is non confirmation or feedback from ET. As you know, Dorwinion consept still awaits to be concluded for proposing. How many mismatches do we have does not matter, the creatives of Edain can work together (all of them) as long as positive approachings are exist. If you want to be more active in the forum or just share ideas, i will be arround till accomplish the task.

The truth is that the road of Edain will endure until the end. There will always be proposals to support mostly whoever prepares them. Whatever the roles are appointed, everyone tries to contribute for sure with the discussions (but limited to here). Their best will carry this project to get full potential. I do not want to break the order which already established nor join needless discussions to be more protective (this includes discord). However my part is over until any call which is not expected any more. So there is not much to do in the journey, this might be a goodbye at the end.

Just remember that our differences make us colourful, not just b/w.

Best regards.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard2 am 29. Mär 2020, 01:21
Okay cool. My suggestions were just that, suggestions. Have a good one.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: Cortes am 10. Apr 2020, 12:04


https://drive.google.com/open?id=1G8tklJuAY_GjxH6iAqx9Ui7Uh67ZIK1V



I have read it and I say:
In Favours
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: tolgayurdal am 10. Apr 2020, 20:39
Many thanks for support. It was a gift for the ones who provided good times about Tolkien universe. Apparently we need to wait until it is constructed, if the team would approve it after Misty Mountains. As always, the time is very precious for everyone.

Best regards.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard2 am 25. Jun 2020, 22:15
I just wanted to add this as another thought. Tolgayurdal, you have some awesome concepts. But one of the concepts I reread on Dorwinion I think would be more suitable here for the following reasons:

Like Durin VII, his power doesn't reach fruition until the fourth age. So maybe one of the ringheroes could be Herumor (from the New Shadow) since his name comes from Umbar, he would most likely be here in the third age, and since he is the future antagonist of the 4th age, I would think him to be a perfect candidate for the One Ring.

What say you my friend? Maybe add him as a ring hero with the other three?
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: tolgayurdal am 26. Jun 2020, 14:41
Thanks for feedback and kind words my friend :) Men of Darkness and Dorwinion concepts are my first proposals as far as i remember and both haven't accepted officially yet, maybe ever won't.

When i prepared them, the main theme was gathering low men (Easterlings and Southrons) and giving them a place under Black Numenoreans for Men of Darkness faction. So the chieftains meant to be natural ring heroes as leaders of their tribes. Can Priest or Templar Knight be a ring heroes? Yes they can, but in my opinion, this might bring unfairness to the rest. The player would captures the one for Black Numenorean hero who probably would be far too strong than low men. This would limit the scale of ring hero roster in practice, also i think it would be out of main theme and that's why their character stories can not get the one ring as i wrote them.

Herumor and Dorwinion are different cases firstly. As all factions, Mysterious Land concept tells a story that how to perform about business and peace with various races. The truth is that New Shadow subject solves many problems about dark side of grey faction which has been started but unfinished by Professor. Also Herumor inside of it has a role that 'beginner of secret cult', in this perspective his ring form evolves to another position in the faction. So i believe that would not be fitting for Men of Darkness concept.

However all of them are just my thoughts about two missing factions. ET has not declared anything about those which i don't expect it any time soon. I hope it is not too much, just wanted to share my ideas.

Best Regards.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard2 am 26. Jun 2020, 17:41
Hey Tolgayurdal,

I respect your opinion and concepts. The only reason I brought Herumor up is due the canonical nature of his character and the etymology of his name. They are both set with the Black Numenorians in Umbar. As you said though, Dorwinion is a mysterious faction that holds a lot of mysteries to it.

That said, I know that Edain always likes to have a canonical bases for implementing new concepts (ex: Durin VII). So to see your concept of Herumor accepted--this was my thought and why I suggested him to be placed with the Men of Darkness, so he could have a canonical bases with his name and origin.

I know it is fun to speculate. Could I inquire you to do another concept? I had an idea for another faction that I wanted to discuss with you (it would be evil) and it wouldn't take up Dorwinion or Men of Darkness slot. Would you mind if I discussed another evil faction with you and draft a concept?
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: tolgayurdal am 26. Jun 2020, 20:28
Sure, there is nothing wrong to discuss anything. In a suitable thread, you can share your thoughts and then i express mine. It is only matter of implementability due to parameters such as being canonicle, subject that based on story, balance etc.

If it is possible, i might help to build that. Please, feel free to mention it.
Titel: Re: A possible new Evil Men faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard2 am 26. Jun 2020, 21:38
Tolgayurdal, okay great! Where do you want me to write about the other faction? In the suggestions part of modding union? I can post the link here if that helps.