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[en] Edain Mod => [Edain] Suggestions => [Edain] Dwarven Suggestions => Thema gestartet von: Walküre am 8. Aug 2016, 15:43

Titel: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 8. Aug 2016, 15:43
Greetings to anyone interested in the Dwarven matters of the lively and friendly Dwarven board. As I recently wrote and replied to some people both on ModDB and here, I believe it would be a great pity if Durin's concept (and the pivotal lore references it consists of) were ultimately removed completely from the game.

The main reasons that justified the choice for the Dáin/Thorin Ring concept are more than agreeable and comprehensible indeed; and I pointed out this quite exhaustively in a comment of mine about this very topic (you can also track the following debate from this post (https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31670.msg442047.html#msg442047)). Now, the Dwarves are undoubtedly much more consistent in lore accuracy than they were before, and they can finally make usage of the One Ring in a definitely more logical and rational context which the current what-if scenario exactly provides.


On the present structure, thus, we find ourselves with a renewed system with its own relative innovative aspects; on the other hand, the legendary figure of the Dwarves' forefather is no more something belonging to the Mod (and, unless the Edain Team has other plans, it seems that the mythical hero is eventually destined to be remembered as one of the many old surpassed concepts of the past).

Since we, as a Community, often managed to find reasonable compromises and alternative solutions for critical situations, I really hope we will too succeed in bringing Durin back in the game; not only as a smart feature itself, but primarily as a fundamental symbol of the Dwarven lore in the history of Arda and of the iconic resurrection theme that characterises wholly this race's true essence (as immortality does in regards of the Elves). On the matter, instead of improbable suggestions that contemplate him as a regular hero, I rather thought about what could be the wisest start to begin with: implementing Durin via the spellbook as an ultimate spell, and replacing the current citadel summoning spell.

In my personal opinion, ultimate spells represent the most profound nature and might of each faction's lore, and they are exactly fashioned accordingly: Gondor's Oathbreakers are inexorably bound to the authority of the legitimate heir of the Númenórean kingdoms and legacy itself in Middle-earth, Rohan's military camp portrays the peculiar horse-motive of the faction's warfare, Isengard's two ultimate spells are centred on industry/militarism and on the terrible devices that derive from it, Mordor can restore the ancient powers of Sauron in line with the Maia's consolidated lore in Arda's events, Lothlórien calls for the aid of the legendary Mariner and his holy light (a Silmaril) in time of need, Angmar's stronghold of the Iron Crown retrieves the remembrance of Carn Dûm's eerie rule and Imladris can dispose of the Last Alliance (and its legendary leaders) that once saved Middle-earth from the dominion of the Dark Lord. That said, wouldn't a legend as Durin be perfectly suitable for the immensely significant task of symbolising the highest and most majestic side of the Dwarves' lore?  ;)

Certainly, this is more an initial input to the debate that I wish it were developed from now on. Details, numbers and also counter-arguments are certainly yet to be discussed properly and taken into consideration very carefully. But, I am nonetheless resolved to campaign for Durin to remain part of the Edain Mod and I'm confident that you too will express your own thoughts too. I will also open a poll, but just to do a little survey about the general feeling towards this proposal; thus, the poll won't encompass detailed and defined concepts  :)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: DrHouse93 am 8. Aug 2016, 16:26
I am quite fine on the system developed right now by the team. I mean, I never had anything against Durin, but I also don't miss him at all, right now. The main reasons why I'd prefer things to remain the way they are are:

1. Even if he's the Forefather of the Dwarves, Durin is long-time dead at the time of the WOTR. And while the Dwarves believe he reincarnates in any Dwarf whose name is Durin, the concept is mainly centered on the current Durin having aspects of his ancestor's appearance and personality, but not being Durin the Deathless himself (keep in mind that for the same reasons I don't like so much the Last Alliance spell, while being really iconic, it's also kinda lame that Gil-galad, Elendil, Isildur and Anarion live again for a bunch of seconds and fight again in Middle-earth. They could be of course special features of some special maps)

2. I largely prefer Thorin and the Dains as Ringheroes, because they are well-known characters with deep personalities, while about Durin we just know his name. So, in a what-if scenario, I'd greatly prefer to see what could have happened if Thorin/Dain found the One Ring, driving him mad and incredibly increasing his greed/pride, rather than having Durin magically back on the battlefield (furthermore thanks to an Evil artifact. Since the Ring contains the soul of Sauron, why should he bring back the Forefather of the Dwarves?)

3. The citadel also represents one of the core aspects of the Dwarves, this being their craftmanship, which, if I'm not mistaking, can be compared to the one of the Noldors and the Numenoreans. Plus it's an incredibly useful defensive building (especially considering that Dwarven towers have a far more smaller range than ordinary defensive towers). I think the Earthquake is more inappropriate, because while being iconic to the faction, I also think it's kinda lame the Dwarves can conjure earthquakes out of thin air (heroes and siege engines are ok, but a sudden earthquake which destroys half of your base, occurring for no reason, it's not so entertaining)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 8. Aug 2016, 16:38
Hmm, it is tough to say for me. To be fair, just like the Last Alliance spell and the Powers of Past Ages for Sauron, there are quite a bit of these elements that do not fit the timeline of Edain mod at all, yet they are iconic in what kind of gameplay elements they provide.

As you know Walk, I have already expressed my thoughts on the lore-related arguments, and I would like to add that Durin really only fit with the old concept, where Dwarves being hewn out of stone by Aüle, was referenced by reviving Durin out of a stone statue, but since Ring Heroes have to pick up the ring themselves (Quite a big gameplay shift), this is no longer relevant, I'm afraid.

I only voted no because I have no idea where to put him. I can only imagine some kind of campaign addition or some scenario pack that someone will probably eventually make. The Dwarven Spellbook is very solid at the moment, in my opinion, and I'd not like a Durin summon to go there. Furthermore, when you gift the majority of his abilities over to the current faction leaders, which keeps his gameplay elements in the game, you basically only remain with his appearance, and that would feel too much like adding for the sake of adding, if you understand what I am trying to say.

If we do add him in a 10 PP spell. what exactly would it look like? I think the Citadel summon spell is much more unique, and now more useful too thanks to the recent price reduction of the expansion catapults. I am not sure what another Hero Summon would truly provide to the faction, unless it'd be made very unique, but I have no idea how this would be done.

Edit: DrHouse93 makes some solid points. I'd like to show my support and approval for them as well.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 8. Aug 2016, 18:07
Thank you both DrHouse and Odysseus, for having participated and provided constructive arguments. If only half of the criticism I got throughout ModDB had been as rational and as logical as yours...  xD

1. As I wrote, I too agree that the new Ring system is way more acceptable in lore terms and absolutely much more coherent: that is, I have no problem with it. That's why I proposed a different implementation of Durin, that wouldn't thus have anything to do with the One Ring anymore and could finally find its proper place exactly as an ultimate spell worthy of representing such pivotal aspects of the renowned Dwarven culture.

2. I know, most of the ultimate spells that I brought as examples are total contradictions of Tolkien's sources. Nevertheless, as much as you may surely know how 'strict' and focused I too am regarding lore matters in the game, it's also true that not everything in the Mod can objectively respect every single of those boundaries, lest the game itself suffer greatly from the loss of many smart and extremely iconic features. There has to be a balance of some sort, and this is exactly the path that the Edain Team, I imagine, decided to eventually follow (even if that meant sacrificing something in terms of lore accuracy). My suggestion thus refers to ultimate spells only, as they in fact are the sole element of each faction to somehow have the 'right' to contrast with the pure lore for higher purposes.

In light of the points above, I have the feeling that it will be quite decisive to determine whether Durin should be a temporary or permanent summon; and I'm starting to get closer to the former option (avoiding thus possible balance and technical issues we might face). Also, a temporary design may give people the sense of that constant renewal motive/cycle, which is inherently connected to the said reincarnation theme, much more effectively. Furthermore, I agree with the interpretation you follow, DrH, but it's even possible to look at the whole specificity of Durin's properties in another deeper and more comprehensive way: as far as I know (unfortunately, I have to admit that I'm not as acquainted with the Dwarven lore as I am with its Elven counterpart), Dwarves do have the possibility to reincarnate long after their death. The souls of the Dwarves are bound to linger forever in the Halls of Mandos (and can't obviously be readmitted again in Valinor in new bodies as the Elves), but they nonetheless can hope to be reincarnated and thus inhabit new Dwarven bodies (destined to become again noble heroes in the mortal World).

3. The citadel spell doesn't displease me that much, as I said, nor do I think that it doesn't have its own logic to be in the game. But it also never really convinced me fully of its real value in the Dwarven spellbook; at least, that iconic value I see in ultimate spells as the Last Alliance or Power of Past Ages. In addition, the great Dwarven mastery of craftsmanship is well pervasively displayed via their significantly robust structures and the diversified defensive features they already have at hand. At this point though, I think it's not really a matter of gameplay utility, but rather a kind of 'political choice' to restore such mythical character for the Dwarves or to stick to the current state of things.

Besides, I'm really happy to debate this topic with you and, in case there weren't favourable responses, to at least ensure that an interesting yet fruitful discussion takes place among the Edain Community  :)

P.S. DrH=DrHouse (I think I found a new nickname, with a more intriguing and mysterious touch)  :P
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Fredius am 8. Aug 2016, 19:40
First of all, let me say that I have nothing against Durin, he seems like a nice guy :P. However in the current mechanics of the mod I don't really see a way to include him into the faction. The Ring system is not an option anymore, so I won't talk about that. This leaves us 2 options: either Durin can be recruited, or he can be summoned.

I personally am not fond of the idea of recruiting him, because that option is like spitting on the lore, no matter how or where he can be built. The ability to recruit him is like him being resurrected, and I can't imagine how one can resurrect a dead Dwarven King in the LOTR universe. Perhaps find some DNA of him, and sacrifice a random Dwarf to resurrect him via Edo Tensei (Naruto fans will know :D)?

This leaves us with the ability to summon him via a hero's ability or the spellbook. I don't think any hero has the capability to resurrect Durin, so I won't cover that, so I think the spellbook would indeed be the best option. Personally I'm quite satisfied with the current spellbook; especially with the last tier powers.  While the Earthquake is a great offensive spell, the Citadel is a great defensive spell. It really compliments each other, and replacing one of them with a random Dwarven hero kinda ruins it imo.

The spell that is most suited to be replaced would imo be the Gandalf summon. Both Gandalf and Durin have strong abilities, thus replacing Gandalf won't change much on the balance matter. However, I personally would prefer Gandalf over Durin, because Gandalf played a big role for the Dwarves in the THIRD age, while Durin had his time in the First Age. I don't believe much in that reincarnation stuff, let's not take it too literally please. Afaik only Elves and Gandalf were reincarnated, and it was Eru (I think?) who had to approve something like that.

TL;DR I have nothing against adding Durin to the mod, but right now I can't seem to find a way to add him without making it too inappropriate. Thus I have voted for No.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 8. Aug 2016, 20:22
I have never really liked the concept of Durin being revived myself. I think the current concepts of Thorin and Dain being driven mad with greed and pride is much more suiting and appropriate to the RIng.

As for making him an ultimate spell, I totally disagree with that. Being able to just summon Durin magically out of thin air makes no sense either conceptually or on a lore basis. The issue is the timeline, the next Durin to be summoned is not until the 4th age, and it spells the ultimate downfall and decline of the Dwarves when he should appear. So, having him appear out of nowhere in the Third Age would actually be a very BAD thing.

The only place I could see him fitting in, in terms of normal gameplay, would be a new level 10 summon of a Hero, as they could be having a new son, which is the reincarnation of Durin. Even this, however; is extremely farfetched and grasping-at-straws in nature. So overall, no, I think Durin should remain out of the normal game, and be added to special maps and campaigns.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 8. Aug 2016, 20:52
I find myself in Elite's critical and ultimately true response. I wonder if we'll ever see something happen to the memoirs of the Last Alliance because of this reasoning.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: kingsjewel am 8. Aug 2016, 22:11
Also I am a supporter the Thorin/Dáin's (and Thorin III's  in an other debate) ringhero form. I suggested that Durin replace the citadel spell because I thought there will be a protest against the new ringhero system, and people will want Durin as a ringhero again.
There was another suggestion that Durin would replace the earthquake spell, but he would has an earthquake ability.
Durin is really a unique hero but I don't insist at all costs.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 9. Aug 2016, 00:06
I just made further researches on Durin and the relative reincarnation theme lying behind his legend. Unfortunately, I didn't find direct evidences of the real future of the Dwarven souls in the Halls of Mandos, thus making any statement about it too risky to be considered more accurate than a speculation (actually, it seems that Tolkien himself has never really given a clear answer too, resulting in this aspect to be even more obscure). Left such metaphysical speculations aside, Durin do live in the legends of the Dwarves as one of the first forefathers and the Dwarves themselves believed that he would have reincarnated seven times before the decline of Arda and the very End; as Elite wrote, the last one is exactly thought to have appeared in the Fourth Age, not long after the War of the Ring.

Apart from Tolkien's precise description of this said motive, the actual proof consists of the fact that every presumptive reincarnation of Durin became leader/king of his people and was author of remarkable deeds. Therefore, to polish the concept a bit, if Durin were really to be summoned, he would be the first and 'real' Durin I: the greatest of the Dwarven forefathers, awoken in the ancestral Years of the Trees and attributed to have lived more than 2000 years (immensely longer than the average Dwarven lifespan), thus receiving the title of 'Deathless'. Said that, the spell would then summon Durin I and him only, as the mightiest of Aulë's creations and the most known of the Dwarves since the oldest tales.

As for making him an ultimate spell, I totally disagree with that. Being able to just summon Durin magically out of thin air makes no sense either conceptually or on a lore basis. The issue is the timeline, the next Durin to be summoned is not until the 4th age, and it spells the ultimate downfall and decline of the Dwarves when he should appear. So, having him appear out of nowhere in the Third Age would actually be a very BAD thing.

I wonder if we'll ever see something happen to the memoirs of the Last Alliance because of this reasoning.

Resolved the 'seventh reincarnation' issue (thanks to Elite for having brought it out and so given me the possibility to clarify the proposal even more), I would like to address the whole lore-contrast at the heart of some of your remarks (akin to the quotations I chose to quote). May I say this quite directly: they would be absolutely valid points in other debates concerning other different issues, but, inserted into the specific context I tried to create, I believe they are instead quite invalid and inappropriate to argue about.

I mean, in such lore terms of the kind you used, there is very little 'argumentative ground' on which we could provide positive or negative arguments and then hope to come to a just conclusion. As I wrote in my previous replies, I too fully agree with you that those spells are outright violations of the simplest lore boundaries; but, I would also really like you to understand that they are ultimate spells endowed with peculiar properties: that is, they provide the game with the most unique features and bring successfully into the game the best elements of their faction's own lore and essence. In doing so, they don't respect the lore and have a good deal of justified reasons to do so. They are kind of extreme exceptions that nonetheless add to the Edain Mod a certain type of uniqueness value; something that would otherwise be not possible at the same extent, and not without making the general game experience eventually poorer.

You could certainly be entitled to question their actual presence in the game, and we could start a thread about it in the future. Nevertheless, at the current state, the legendary forefather of the Dwarves, who lived millennia before, being magically summoned out of thin air wouldn't be more inappropriate than the Last Alliance troops alongside their commanders, than Eärendil suddenly appearing on the battlefield upon Vingilótë (when he is supposed to guard the outer skies of Arda in eternity) and than Sauron/Gorthaur gleefully walking around with all his past powers of shape-shifting and black Magic unspoiled (as nothing really happened in the previous 6000 years).

I don't believe much in that reincarnation stuff, let's not take it too literally please. Afaik only Elves and Gandalf were reincarnated, and it was Eru (I think?) who had to approve something like that.

In my opinion, what Tolkien meant with reincarnation has a very subtle aspect: not such complete and immediate reincarnation, but rather incredible virtues and the formidable strength (even past remembrances?) of one soul that pass into another new soul within a given (long, usually) period of time. The Elves may be reincarnated, but it's quite a different matter; those who find again peace in the Halls of Mandos can gain back their physical bodies and be readmitted to the eternal bliss of Valinor (but Valinor only). As far as I know, Ilúvatar is not involved in this process and everything is left to the Valar's judgement.

I guess the Valar too could have revived Gandalf and restored his powers, with that, though, taking considerable time and efforts (as an injured Maia can recover only after centuries, should its physical body be destroyed). Eru's intervention made everything immediate, for Gandalf was revived completely and granted even greater powers; in perfect time to accomplish his mission: saving Middle-earth  8-)

Also I am a supporter the Thorin/Dáin's (and Thorin III's  in an other debate) ringhero form. I suggested that Durin replace the citadel spell because I thought there will be a protest against the new ringhero system, and people will want Durin as a ringhero again.
There was another suggestion that Durin would replace the earthquake spell, but he would has an earthquake ability.
Durin is really a unique hero but I don't insist at all costs.

Nothing to worry about. If you manage to provide valuable arguments to your position, you can continue to discuss this proposal anytime you want to  :)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 9. Aug 2016, 03:02
I also don't particularly like the Last Alliance spell. Regarding Vingilot, I never looked at it like the ACTUAL Vingilot, just an illusion which gives strength and hope to its allies. For Gorthaur, at least Sauron didn't directly die, and could conceivably have had time to recover if given long enough.

If we just pull back mortal characters and revive them from death, then why is it fair to cherry pick them? There was a truly excellent proposal some time ago, which is still buried in the Rohan suggestions board, to give Rohan a new Ring mechanic in the form of Eorl the Young. This was shot down purely because Eorl was dead at the time of the Third Age. So why is it fair for the Dwarves to revive Durin the Deathless, or Durin I, and not for Rohan to revive Eorl the Young? That is one of the major problems I have with the concept, it seems like it is ruled by favouritism rather than fairness. I would prefer to at least keep the content of the mod somewhat in the Third Age, rather than having 2nd and 1st age stuff thrown willy nilly throughout, for uniformities sake.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 9. Aug 2016, 10:52
I shall put forward my 2 cents.
I personally believe Durin felt lazy as a Ring Hero, he did not explore the "What if" scenarios in other words. However I am against a complete removal from the mod, rather I thin making him a 10 pp spell would work. I would rather him replace earthquake than the fortress as Durin is an aggressive hero and replacing a defensive spell with an aggressive spell, for a defensive fraction, feels... wrong. I would only accept him replacing the fortress if the Dwarf Barracks Dain can summon was given its upgrades and tower foundations.
Also while on the topic of Ring Heroes what is the current word on the Dain dilemma, because at the moment it feels like Old Dain is leading the Iron hills and Young Dain is leading Erabor.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: DrHouse93 am 9. Aug 2016, 11:32
I also don't particularly like the Last Alliance spell. Regarding Vingilot, I never looked at it like the ACTUALY Vingilot, just an illusion which gives strength and hope to its allies. For Gorthaur, at least Sauron didn't directly die, and could conceivably have had time to recover if given long enough.

If we just pull back mortal characters and revive them from death, then why is it fair to cherry pick them? There was a truly excellent proposal some time ago, which is still buried in the Rohan suggestions board, to give Rohan a new Ring mechanic in the form of Eorl the Young. This was shot down purely because Eorl was dead at the time of the Third Age. So why is it fair for the Dwarves to revive Durin the Deathless, or Durin I, and not for Rohan to revive Eorl the Young? That is one of the major problems I have with the concept, it seems like it is ruled by favouritism rather than fairness. I would prefer to at least keep the content of the mod somewhat in the Third Age, rather than having 2nd and 1st age stuff thrown willy nilly throughout, for uniformities sake.

+1
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Fredius am 9. Aug 2016, 14:38
I also totally agree with Elite.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: UlfricStormcloak148 am 9. Aug 2016, 15:05
I liked him, so I said yes, but if I am to be honest, I prefer to have Durin only in a palantir power because he is dead loooooooooooong before the Third Age, or not at all like now.

After all if Edain Team made him available like a Dwarf Ring Hero, Why do they not make/add Gil-Galad a hero for Imladris with Celebrimbor, Celebrian, The first Glorfindel, Fëanor... The Numenorean kingdom with Ciryatur, Isildur or Elendil for Arnor... Gothmog the King of the Balrog, Glaurung the Father of Dragons, Draugluin the Father of Werewolf, Morgoth, Ungoliant...

The answer is quite simple : All of these people/creatures are long dead before the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings.

So stop whining about not Durin being in the game lads and deal with it and move on.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 9. Aug 2016, 16:04
I also don't particularly like the Last Alliance spell. Regarding Vingilot, I never looked at it like the ACTUALY Vingilot, just an illusion which gives strength and hope to its allies. For Gorthaur, at least Sauron didn't directly die, and could conceivably have had time to recover if given long enough.

While the spell is in action, I guess the very Vingilótë does appear in the battlefield, as you can also manoeuvre it and the actual model of the ship exactly says that it's Eärendil's enchanted vessel. But even if that weren't the case, the light of Eärendil would never display itself in such fashion (as its only radiant fragment on Middle-earth is captured in Galadriel's phial, and the Mariner won't come down to Arda until the End). Regarding Sauron, he did die in a sense, as his physical body was destroyed by the cataclysm caused by the wrath of Ilúvatar; any Maia who is violently deprived of its physical appearance will inevitably face the loss of some of its powers too. It's quite an inevitable law of Arda, and Tolkien made it very clear that Sauron could have never recovered and retrieved his past might again (particularly, the ability of shape-shifting at a major extent and the ability to appear in a very fair form). That is, the spell is nonetheless a clear violation of the lore, and there is not something more to add about it, in my opinion.

Nevertheless, again, I am not questioning these spells' accuracy towards the lore, because it's already proven that they don't respect it and similar arguments of this kind would thus not contribute meaningfully to the debate either. As long as such spells are in the game, any lore-boundary can't be applied to them in that strict way (and I already explained why, as ultimate spells, they have the possibility to go beyond the logic that is legitimately followed for the other spells and the other elements of the game).

If we just pull back mortal characters and revive them from death, then why is it fair to cherry pick them? There was a truly excellent proposal some time ago, which is still buried in the Rohan suggestions board, to give Rohan a new Ring mechanic in the form of Eorl the Young. This was shot down purely because Eorl was dead at the time of the Third Age. So why is it fair for the Dwarves to revive Durin the Deathless, or Durin I, and not for Rohan to revive Eorl the Young? That is one of the major problems I have with the concept, it seems like it is ruled by favouritism rather than fairness. I would prefer to at least keep the content of the mod somewhat in the Third Age, rather than having 2nd and 1st age stuff thrown willy nilly throughout, for uniformities sake.

I wouldn't call it favouritism, but rather a free choice among different valuable options. In fact, once the lore-logic is not valid anymore in such terms, I think you only have to decide, based on every situation's specificity, whether it should be wise to stick to a solid concept that doesn't create any problematics as the ones above or to go boldly for a very unique feature that adds greatness to the game (at the cost of timeline or lore contradictions). For example, Gondor and Rohan stick wisely to lore-accurate concepts as there is a wide range of possibilities for them to choose from, related specifically to the War of the Ring and to the content of the cinematographic trilogy; factions as Lothlórien and Rivendell aren't that lucky to dispose of such chances, so that it's necessarily required to seek for the 'bold choices' I referred to above (in this context, their relative ultimate spells).

Just imagine, in Imladris' case, would there really be suitable alternative choices other than the current spell? A new ultimate spell that perfectly respects the lore and the timeline could be easily conceived, but that will ultimately lead to the Last Alliance spell to be removed from the game; a spell that is magnificently related to the Eldar's glorious past and to the LOTR prologue everyone is fond of. Uniqueness is exactly one of the greatest aspects of this Mod, and if clever exceptions as the Last Alliance and Power of Past Ages were not anymore, unique it would not be. This is my personal consideration of the matter.

By the way, I checked that thread (https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,30893.msg390901.html#msg390901) of Eorl the Young (if this is the one you mentioned) and I honestly find the comparison a bit inappropriate. First of all, the thread is not technically shut down, as there is just a comment from Tiberius that uses the same logic (wrong, in this case) of the impossibility to revive dead heroes. Second, the proposal is linked to the One Ring, while, as I stated from the beginning, this one has nothing to do with it; in that situation, I would have rejected that concept for the fact that Eorl is resurrected via the action of a totally evil artefact (the same argument against Durin as a Ring hero).

As the current Moderator, I tell you that you can develop that proposal further, if you are willing to. In regards of Eorl the Young being implemented via the spellbook, my response would use the logic of the 'wise choice' I illustrated before: Rohan had better stick to its current concept, because both the lore and the actual films provide us with completely accurate material to work with and to develop unique concepts from (while Eorl would then disrupt every of those aspects more than it could benefit the game itself). Therefore, based on Rohan's particularities, I would absolutely agree with you about the timeline and the lore. The Dwarves, Imladris, Lothlórien and Mordor just have different standards though  :)

EDIT:

I liked him, so I said yes, but if I am to be honest, I prefer to have Durin only in a palantir power because he is dead loooooooooooong before the Third Age, or not at all like now.

After all if Edain Team made him available like a Dwarf Ring Hero, Why do they not make/add Gil-Galad a hero for Imladris with Celebrimbor, Celebrian, The first Glorfindel, Fëanor... The Numenorean kingdom with Ciryatur, Isildur or Elendil for Arnor... Gothmog the King of the Balrog, Glaurung the Father of Dragons, Draugluin the Father of Werewolf, Morgoth, Ungoliant...

The answer is quite simple : All of these people/creatures are long dead before the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings.

I really suggest you read again the previous passages of the debate (if you haven't done it), because I personally think you're making now a bit of confusion about the matters involved and the relative arguments. It's quite clear that we can't have Morgoth, the Valar or the whole First Age in the game, and I exactly spent some time in explaining my reasoning and this concept's specificity very carefully. It would thus be desirable if you had a look at them and remained in touch with the discussion.

So stop whining about not Durin being in the game lads and deal with it and move on.

This thread was exactly established to deal more specifically with the current Durin issue. If you are not interested, you are free to not participate and getting yourself involved in other activities elsewhere. If you are willing to argue your legitimate opposite position though, you should then do it with actual and real criticism; pointless remarks like the one I quoted are generally more than worthy of being simply deleted for the sake of the very topic. If you want to discuss, do it properly, please.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 9. Aug 2016, 16:46
I did some more thinking last night, and I still agree with Elite. I simply do not see anyway of adding him in a useful manner in multiplayer.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 9. Aug 2016, 19:19
I did some more thinking last night, and I still agree with Elite. I simply do not see anyway of adding him in useful manner in multiplayer.

Fair enough then. From my side, I believe I already presented my ideas quite exhaustively and provided the constructive arguments needed to back my thesis properly. Since I am now focused on another project that requires my attention, I don't think I will intervene further in this discussion; the proposal itself still lacks a detailed design and actual numbers, but I exactly established this thread so that it encompassed a very widened theme (not a specific suggestion, but rather a general debate about Durin's future in the Edain Mod). My purpose was doing a little survey of the Community's thoughts and putting forward the sincere reasons of uniqueness I consider vital for the iconic Durin to remain in the game (in place of the citadel spell, if it's possible).

Obviously, should anyone have other proposals or remarks to do to enrich the debate, the topic will be nonetheless open to ensure this. Probably, I guess it would be really helpful if we managed to receive an answer from the Edain Team as soon as possible, just to draw a definitive line on the matter (in case Durin's concept were really to be gone forever from the game).

I really want to thank all of those who participated actively and, most importantly, constructively to this thread, exposing their own relative arguments and counter-arguments. I feel this discussion is probably one of the many of this forum that ought to be brought as an example of how one should establish a debate and lead it successfully  :)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Fredius am 9. Aug 2016, 19:59
While the spell is in action, I guess the very Vingilótë does appear in the battlefield, as you can also manoeuvre it and the actual model of the ship exactly says that it's Eärendil's enchanted vessel. But even if that weren't the case, the light of Eärendil would never display itself in such fashion (as its only radiant fragment on Middle-earth is captured in Galadriel's phial, and the Mariner won't come down to Arda until the End). Regarding Sauron, he did die in a sense, as his physical body was destroyed by the cataclysm caused by the wrath of Ilúvatar; any Maia who is violently deprived of its physical appearance will inevitably face the loss of some of its powers too. It's quite an inevitable law of Arda, and Tolkien made it very clear that Sauron could have never recovered and retrieved his past might again (particularly, the ability of shape-shifting at a major extent and the ability to appear in a very fair form). That is, the spell is nonetheless a clear violation of the lore, and there is not something more to add about it, in my opinion.

What everyone seems to forget is the fact that all those characters/powers you have mentioned are already a part of the spellbook. They have been thought of carefully, and are essential to the gameplay of said factions. However, if we look at Durin, he was JUST a ringhero. A ringhero is an addition that can be chosen to be included through the skirmish menu, which means that a ringhero is not a necessity for the Dwarven faction. Unlike the Gorthaur or Last Alliance spell, which are always part of the spellbooks of their corresponding factions, since you can't simply change a spellbook before a match. This is why Durin is not necessary to be included in the Dwarven faction, because he already never was actually a "part" of it, if you get my meaning. Replacing a, imo very handy, spell like the Citadel or Earthquake with Durin, just for the sake of adding him like Odysseus beautifully said, is not a good thing imo.

Also Walk, next time I think it would be best not to include a poll at all, even if it is only to measure the general feelings of the community about the proposal. As you can see there are more people who vote for including Durin, but only people who are against adding him write their arguments. I believe many fans think that only voting for "Yes" or "No" will make any difference, and won't even bother to read the first post, or write arguments against the opponents. Right now it feels like that the only ones in this debate who are in favor of including him is you, who has to counter the arguments of all us "haters" [ugly].


Also while on the topic of Ring Heroes what is the current word on the Dain dilemma, because at the moment it feels like Old Dain is leading the Iron hills and Young Dain is leading Erabor.

This is actually off-topic. It would be better to write a different thread about this.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 9. Aug 2016, 22:00
I really disagree with that reasoning, Fredius. I can't really see how a game option in skirmishes would even slightly suggest that each Ring hero is something set apart from the correlated faction or even a superfluous feature. I imagine that impressive efforts were put in time to make the Edain Ring system as unique and as recognisable as it is now; I personally deem it paramount to the very Mod's structure (fact that is well illustrated and thus rightly advertised on the ModDB Edain page). Following that 'skirmish logic', I guess we would still have only Sauron and Galadriel available via the One Ring, as it was in the past. The difference with the current system, tailored to every faction's characteristics, is immensely evident in terms of advanced and extremely fitting new possibilities.

Given that I already well explained all the lore references and the ancestral importance of Durin in the Dwarven mythology, I won't repeat myself. In light of that though, I consider the concept objectively too much profound to have it dealt with as something that must be added for the sake of adding. Despite understanding the core thoughts at its heart (several proposals were rightly turned down for this reason), I sincerely doubt that response could cover this issue decently and then provide us with a reasonable answer (what an answer like 'No, we decided to follow a new policy for the entire Dwarven faction and get rid of that old concept' may instead do).

Believe me, I had really just purposes in establishing a poll and I am absolutely aware of the problematics that can consequently arise. Also, I am very acquainted with polls and their inner risks for the fact that polls themselves have been under discussion among Moderators and Administrators, and, as it was already stated, we decided to keep an eye on this feature and to intervene if they had been evidently misused for the most diverse reasons. I can assure you that this is not the case  ;)

The past 'poll-degeneration' consisted of people just abruptly throwing around multiple ideas (very detailed yet improbable) and presenting them as actual poll options, when they should have discussed them before; or using the poll's result as an actual point/argument to use in the debate. I have done none of that. I made it clear from the beginning that it was just a means to gather information about the general feeling, and no way did I ever present it as a favourable argument in my replies. Of course, it's always great if a thread attracts more and more users (and I tried to encourage them as much as my possibilities permitted me), but it's not something that always happens, nor do I have the power to bind them to do so.

I'm sure that more people agree with me and more others don't. The thread will remain open, as I wrote, hoping that new opinions might come in time. The poll had nonetheless just that purpose, and if there are people that just voted positively and flew away, other ones did the same on the opposite side. I know that it can be hard, but sometimes polls need to be treated with extreme patience and good sense  :P

P.S. That forces me to wonder what would have happened in case of a negative majority  :D
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Fredius am 9. Aug 2016, 23:17
I really disagree with that reasoning, Fredius. I can't really see how a game option in skirmishes would even slightly suggest that each Ring hero is something set apart from the correlated faction or even a superfluous feature. I imagine that impressive efforts were put in time to make the Edain Ring system as unique and as recognisable as it is now; I personally deem it paramount to the very Mod's structure (fact that is well illustrated and thus rightly advertised on the ModDB Edain page). Following that 'skirmish logic', I guess we would still have only Sauron and Galadriel available via the One Ring, as it was in the past. The difference with the current system, tailored to every faction's characteristics, is immensely evident in terms of advanced and extremely fitting new possibilities.

Given that I already well explained all the lore references and the ancestral importance of Durin in the Dwarven mythology, I won't repeat myself. In light of that though, I consider the concept objectively too much profound to have it dealt with as something that must be added for the sake of adding. Despite understanding the core thoughts at its heart (several proposals were rightly turned down for this reason), I sincerely doubt that response could cover this issue decently and then provide us with a reasonable answer (what an answer like 'No, we decided to follow a new policy for the entire Dwarven faction and get rid of that old concept' may instead do).

No, that's not what I meant with my post. I'm aware of the amount of work that ET put into the Ring system, and I really admire their work. I wanted to explain to you why spells like Gorthaur or the Last Alliance can't be compared with what Durin as a ringhero was in terms of gameplay, and why it's invalid to remove an ultimate spell just for him. I will try to explain my point in a different way; the current spellbooks are all made in a way that complements with what the faction needs, and to ensure your victory in a match. However, the whole Ring system is just a choice, you can enable/disable the ring system in the skirmish menu, thus Gollum will never appear, and you will never get the bonusses that come with capturing the Ring. That's why the whole Ring system is not a necessity, because you can just play without it, and that's why Durin himself was never a necessity, because the Dwarven faction doesn't necessarily need him to win a match. Even with the Ring system enabled you won't always be able to build him if the enemy captures the Ring.

My point is that the current ultimate spells have already been integrated so well into the Dwarven faction, that they serve their role perfectly during a match. Replacing one of them with Durin, who was just a ringhero before, will disrupt this balance; that's why I don't think it is worth it to remove one of them for Durin, just for the sake of "adding him", not in terms of lore, but in terms of gameplay.

When writing this post I got a bit more curious about Durin, so I went and searched some info about him from tolkiengateway. After reading the article I started to doubt what value he could even have for the Dwarves. He was the oldest of the 7 fathers of the Dwarves, he erected the city of Khazad Dum, named some mountains and hills... and? Yes, that's about it; apart from those things he was just a Dwarven king, nothing else really :S. So why is he soo important to add to the faction, while he didn't even do anything in particular that made him stand out from the other Dwarven kings? I read the whole thread again just to find an argument in terms of lore which supports the importance of adding him to the faction, but the only thing I could find is that he is the oldest creation of Aule, and the fore-father of the Dwarves. That is not special enough to add him imo. Sauron's Gorthaur form has a vast arrange of powers that are tied to the lore, the Last Alliance spell gives us the chance to play with the heroes who defeated Sauron, but what did Durin do exactly?

P.S. It seems that I quoted one of your comments in my post before Walk, because I wanted to reply to it, but then decided not to. However I forgot to remove the quoted comment from the post, which makes it look like I replied on that particular comment :D. I removed the quote from the post.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: kmogon am 9. Aug 2016, 23:53
I think that saing "just ring hero" isn't as accuratly as we think . For us it just hero but for ET is tons of quotes , textures , skills which taked a lot of time to be like we can saw in 4.3 and I'm not sure that they just forget about it .Aditionally I cannot agree with your ( Fredius ) point of view about durins meaning in dwarven culture . He is sb like dalajlama for dwarves ( or even Aragorn for Gondor ) who is mensioned  in every single dwarf scene in books and movies . Secondary I don't think that dwarven fortres as much usefull . His Low health and cost of uprages just make  him easy to destroy.

And it's not nessesary to delete one of the spells
maybe if  fortres would be able to recruit durin for a large amoumt of money it would make every body happy . He still would be optional and would rise value of 10p spell .
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 10. Aug 2016, 00:11
It really seems that this thread is really doing everything to trap me eternally in this topic (and the fact that I opened it in the first place doesn't help either)  xD

No, apart from jokes, what I wanted to highlight about Ring heroes was that most of them do symbolise too fundamental lore aspects of their relative factions (as much as such ultimate spells wonderfully do). In Durin's case, I honestly refuse to think that he was chosen as a Ring hero not without lore reasons also (although the concept was replaced due to the new overhaul, I doubt that its lore value became insignificant overnight). As far as I grasped from the sources, he is indeed the greatest of Aulë's children and the fact that he reincarnated seven times in different timelines proved that right, in my opinion; leading him to be worshipped as the mythical ancestor of all and as the quintessence of the Dwarves themselves as a race.

Unfortunately, I couldn't expand the reincarnation issue further, as it seems to be a very obscure theme in Tolkien's lore. If anyone has additional and more precise lore data, I would be more than happy to be proven wrong and to correct my proposal (just like Elite brought out that fair 'seventh reincarnation' argument). Regarding my remarks on those spells, they were primarily meant to counter Elite's considerations on lore accuracy. I stick to my opinion that Durin as a spell would be equally unique and suitable as the Last Alliance Spell or Power of Past Ages; and those two spells are probably the proof that, sometimes, lore or uniqueness must be held in higher consideration than gameplay and vice versa (in order to add definitely more to the game).

Your points referring gameplay are indeed valuable and valid, Fredius. I'm not displeased at all to get such criticism, because it's absolutely constructive and I established the thread myself to also seek for other people's thoughts. Only, my instinct tells me that Durin would eventually be worth being implemented again (not necessarily via the spellbook, if someone comes up with other reasonable solutions)  :)

I'm really flattered, but don't mind me at all; Moderators are exactly supposed to lead discussions and take a prominent role in debates (obviously expected to withstand counter-arguments too). As for the poll, even in the most favourable scenario, it's quite unlikely that the votes would ever correspond to the people who actually took time to participate actively in the forum. It's a kind of inexorable fact one should simply accept: hard life of a Moderator  :D

As I previously wrote, this may be my last post in dealing with this thread. I really invite anyone interested in it to express itself and so provide other material to discuss about.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Fredius am 10. Aug 2016, 00:20
I think that saing "just ring hero" isn't as accuratly as we think . For us it just hero but for ET is tons of quotes , textures , skills which taked a lot of time to be like we can saw in 4.3 and I'm not sure that they just forget about it.

Well i'm not saying they should throw the whole model out of the mod itself, it can be a map-only feature or something. Durin is a very old asset, possibly from the days Edain just started, and there are plenty of old assets that aren't being used anymore. However many old assets can still be found in worldbuilder, so I guess he might end up that way too, if the team won't use him for the faction itself.

Aditionally I cannot agree with your ( Fredius ) point of view about durins meaning in dwarven culture . He is sb like dalajlama for dwarves ( or even Aragorn for Gondor ) who is mensioned  in every single dwarf scene in books and movies.

Ofcourse he has a great influence on Dwarven culture, but that's the only reason people want to add him. What other values does he have apart from the title of being the first Dwarf ever made? That is imo not a good reason to add a character to a faction. Might as well add Eorl the Young as Elite said, since he is seen the same way by the Rohirrim as Durin is for the Dwarves. Let this remain Edain Mod please, not Necromancer Mod :P.

And it's not nessesary to delete one of the spells
maybe if  fortres would be able to recruit durin for a large amoumt of money it would make every body happy . He still would be optional and would rise value of 10p spell .

I think this would be the best compromise if people want to add him, great thinking!

EDIT: Walk I will put my reply to your last post in a minute here, it won't be big as I don't want you to get stuck into this thread if you don't want to xD.

________________________ ________________________ ____________________

No, apart from jokes, what I wanted to highlight about Ring heroes was that most of them do symbolise too fundamental lore aspects of their relative factions (as much as such ultimate spells wonderfully do). In Durin's case, I honestly refuse to think that he was chosen as a Ring hero not without lore reasons also (although the concept was replaced due to the new overhaul, I doubt that its lore value became insignificant overnight). As far as I grasped from the sources, he is indeed the greatest of Aulë's children and the fact that he reincarnated seven times in different timelines proved that right, in my opinion; leading him to be worshipped as the mythical ancestor of all and as the quintessence of the Dwarves themselves as a race.

Well my question about the lore wasn't a direct lash at you or something. I'm just very curious why Durin, in terms of lore, should be in the mod, when he hasn't done anything special apart from being the "first born" of the Dwarves. I also read in the article in tolkiengateway that it is not even sure that he reincarnated; his children just had similair appearance and behavior, that's why they "thought" he reincarnated to his children.

Tolkien didn't describe any specific powers that he had, unlike Gorthaur or Galadriel, so I have the feeling that he won't have the destructive abilities that can make him worth a 10pp spell, without sacrificing the lore aspect. I'm not critizing here, just curious, because my knowledge of the lore only goes this far :P.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: SP19XX am 25. Nov 2016, 22:53
So having a quick read through this topic I can understand where people are coming from Lore wise in regards to there being no direct confirmation of Durin actually reincarnating as opposed to it being more of an inheritance of similarities through his direct heirs however I agree in the regards that Durin should still remain as a part of the Dwarven faction.

While it might not be a guaranteed fact that he did reincarnate it is the most common belief and thus in itself a display of faith from the dwarves that even beyond death their forefather will return to them when the need presents itself the most throughout the span of time and I feel that should be taken into account when considering this.

In regards to a means of implementing him perhaps some sort of defacto compromise between the current and previous ring hero systems can be merged. What if Thorin / Dain upon collecting the ring for themselves were given the ability to access the old ring hero function thereupon taking the ring to a statue of Durin giving up their benefits in exchange for reviving their forefather as the ring hero or having them sacrifice themselves for the benefit of their kin (dying in order to revive Durin - perhaps this could be a spell that replaces the Forges of Aule in their palantirs, where those two sacrifice themselves and Durin the Deathless arrives in their place and the ring is passed down to him in that method). This or a system more in line with that of Galadriel in which a choice is made to claim the ring for themselves or to use it to fuel the beliefs of the dwarves and bring Durin's reincarnation about at an elevated pace.

While those methods might seem a bit impractical and could be altered to fit a bit better I don't think Durin should be removed entirely but should be an effective secondary choice of Ring Hero (given that most factions barring a few have two potential candidates / options for the ring).
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 7. Dez 2016, 02:45
In regards to a means of implementing him perhaps some sort of defacto compromise between the current and previous ring hero systems can be merged.

[...]This or a system more in line with that of Galadriel in which a choice is made to claim the ring for themselves or to use it to fuel the beliefs of the dwarves and bring Durin's reincarnation about at an elevated pace.

In my opinion, sticking to the points made in the previous passages, a merged system of two different Ring systems would be objectively too much complicated; intricate mechanics ought to remain rare exceptions, as they might result in boring/frustrating people instead of pleasing them. Concerning the choice aspect, that would probably contrast with another Ring system of the game, which is unique exactly for this quality: Galadriel's acceptance or refusal of the One Ring.

Nevertheless, I would still suggest the whole involvement of the One Ring be completely set aside from this proposal. The reasons why I envisaged that are both conceptual and technical; I guess one can easily collect them via browsing the comments of this thread. As the forthcoming 4.5 patch is being developed, I'm more and more doubting that Durin will ever return in the Mod. My will to see him back again is nonetheless well alive. Unless opposite pronouncements, I believe the discussion may continue without any problem. Were someone to share additional ideas, I would be much interested to know them.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 31. Mai 2017, 20:58
Hey Diewalkure and many members. I remember actually posting something regarding Durin a long time ago. So concerning the three dwarf ringheroes: Thorin II, Lord Dain and King Dain. Here are my following suggestions and feel free to build upon them.

Thorin II: Keep ringhero function as is.
Lord Dain: Takes the Ring for himself, has the current King Dain's ring abilities.
King Dain: Since he is wiser, more mature, and it states in the lore that he rejected Sauron's offer of Thror's ring, I would suggest to give him a dual choice like Galadriel.

1. King Dain accepts the ring and gains ring hero stats like what Lord Dain has now (moves slow, invulnerable near buildings, etc.
2. King Dain REJECTS the Ring, thus giving it to Thorin III's son (Durin VII) who uses the One Ring to channel his ancestor's spirit unto himself. Thus Durin VII is proclaimed and may play as originally intended (with a few tweaks of course).

I feel this concept for the Dwarfs is more canonical because:

1. King Dain rejected Durin III's Ring in the books.
2. Lord Dain is much more impertinent and rage filled and not the methodical leader as he is by WOTR.
3. Thorin III's ancestor that rules after him is Durin VII.
4. Durin's have extremely long lifespans and the 4th age is not that long (also called the dwelling of men), Durin VII (whatever real name he has) would have to be alive by the time of WOTR.
5. Durin's are reincarnated, so for Thorin III's son having all the abilities and memories of all seven Durin's would help him in warding off the evil affects of the Ring.
6. This offers a solution to the Durin dilemma and everyone gets what they want.
7. It is the most canoncial and it works.

So if you are in favor of seeing Durin return via this way let the community, ET, and all of us know. As always, it is my pleasure to confer with Diewalkure and others as well as share my ideas. Thank you.

dkbluewizard.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 31. Mai 2017, 21:39

Really like this, I'm on board! It is canonical, reverts the Dain dilemma (with the change in both of Dain's Ring Hero palantirs. I think his normal abilities should be reversed too) and gives a unique choice to King Dain to restore Durin!

Great idea!
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 4. Jun 2017, 01:39
Thank you very much Julio, I am glad you liked that idea. The other possible idea is that we have Durin VII actually be another hero for Erebor, and choose to either give him the One Ring or King Dain.

Since ET is picky about heroes, maybe my first idea was the best. Thank you for your support anyways, it is much appreciated.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 4. Jun 2017, 10:07
I like the idea  :) however there is a problem imo. In this way erebor would be the only faction who can summon Durin and maybe the player would be more forced to choose the faction for this reason. I would like to find a more wide concept involving alle the three realms if is it possible.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 4. Jun 2017, 11:09
May I put forward my suggestion again of replacing the Earthquake spell with summoning Durin, and giving him the aoe earthquake spell as an ability.
I see no reason to included Durin in the ring hero mechanics.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Jun 2017, 14:07
I'm quite torn inside in regards of what to do with Durin now. One of my main arguments of the previous passages of this discussion has exactly been the involvement of the One Ring in all of this. As you may understand from my past comments, I'm almost adamant about my conviction that Durin should have nothing to do with that evil artefact; the debate was a scope for trying to find an alternative path, so that we would no longer be bound to rely on the Evil incarnated to implement such fundamental element of the whole Dwarven lore. In case you sought for arguments, the contributions of mine in the preceding pages will offer you plenty of reasonings.

But the Edain Team has already expressed itself in opposition to the idea of using the earthquake via the summoning of the Dwarves' ancestor as an ultimate spell, in the belief that this option might complicate things in unnecessary ways. Furthermore, in order to make the said ultimate spell far smarter and more unique than it actually is, some people have proposed the introduction in the game of the giant earth-hammer from the BFME2 campaign; I don't know if I used the correct name, but the title indicates what it does: it is a monumental machine that Dwarves use to create earthquakes, even in remote parts of the map. Not only do I find this suggestion really apt and suitable for the craftsman/engineer-based nature of this race, but I also think it would be nice to connect such feature with some unknown knowledge and arts that Dwarves boast as their own personal secret (or some arts derived from the teachings of Aulë in Aman, that the Noldor had later entrusted to the Dwarves in the Elder Days). As you can see, there could be interesting aspects to toy with. If you just consider the Elven arts related to warfare, according to which the Eldar of Aman are capable of imbuing and infusing magic (their own nature) into their creations (like swords that sense the Evil and start glowing), it is equally important (maybe) that Dwarves be given an akin opportunity to show off their mastery of building, machinery and so on.

And we now come back to the prime issue of this topic: what place does Durin have in these proposals of ours? This I couldn't tell for sure yet.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 4. Jun 2017, 17:49
Listen to me, if any of you want to see Durin again, then he has to be placed with Erebor. This is the most canonical (as I listed in my earlier reply) than anything proposed. I agree with Diewalkure that the Earthquake spell should stay, whether it is done via the Earthhammer as an upgrade spell on a fortress or just a regular spell is of no consequence to me.

However, the conversation about Durin is this: ET stated that when Thorin II gets the ring, he proclaims himself Durin, Dain does this as well and it makes both of them greedy and lordly. So why not actually give the ring to the guy that is actually destined to become Durin VII? Infusing the spirits of all Durin's into one thereby warding the ring's affects off. Durin is reborn.

Maybe I need to add some abilities to make you guys interested, though I am not as skilled as LordofLinks or Diewalkure on palantir pictures.

But I think the summoning of Durin by King Dain  should read something like this:

"Dain refuses the ring and gives the ring to his grandson to destroy. Dain's grandson proclaims himself the final incarnation of Durin and sets out to destroy the ring."

I don't know, something like that. But if you all want to see Durin rise again, this is the only canonical and right way. Unless Edain is willing to make another hero for Erebor and name him Anar (Dwarf who escorted Bilbo when he left the Shire--I used his name because I felt that Bilbo was such a venerated icon to the Dwarfs that they would have sent their best warriors to escort him since he help win back their home. Anar at this time I used as the earlier version of Durin VII).

So ET could use Anar and make a hero out of him and have him take the ring, but I feel they would complain about some type of statistical error, number, or work--so I feel the best way to implement Durin back in a canonical and right way is like I said: Have King Dain resist the ring (as he does in the book) and give it to his grandson (Thorin III's son) as discussed he was alive at the time of WOTR and this is the most canonical.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Jun 2017, 20:25
Yes, I'm leaning more and more towards the Ring-system option. It seems to be an inexorable conclusion, if we are really willing to see Durin again in the game. We could try to find a solution that satisfies the need to create some distance between the concept and the One Ring: I mean, we could come up with a kind of refusal of the Evil and glorification of Durin's figure, so that the idea itself of summoning the supreme ancestor is not very much connected with the One.

Anyway, I will open a new thread about the Earth-Hammer topic. I deem it better to separate the two things.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 4. Jun 2017, 22:34
Well I haven't talked about this too much, but I actually did a timeline for Durin VII and how old he would be by 3018. 2866 Thorin III was born, and if he had Durin VII at the same age as Dain had him (99 years old), then by 3018 that puts Durin VII at 53 years old.

Now if we continue with the timeline, he is 56 when the Third Age ends and he is 176 years old when Gimli and Legolas leave for Valinor. So assuming the 4th age goes on forever (since we don't know when it ends) and Durin VII has the longevity of the Durins, it is most conceivable that Durin VII is the descendant of Thorin III as he is his son. Durin I lived over 2,500 years, Durin VI was 249 and was ruling in good condition until the Balrog killed him. We are not given any real dates as to how long Durin III-V lived.

So assuming the minimum years being 250 (like Dain) that would put Durin VII at 194 of the Fourth Age. However, we must remember Dwarfs are hinted to live an average of 250 years, Durin's line is longer, and Dwalin lived to a rare 340 years.

So in conclusion, as I have stated, I strongly feel Durin VII would have to be the son of Thorin III, given the short amount of time Dwarfs existed in the 4th age, the longevity of Durins, and the sequences of middle earth's timeline.

I appreciate the feedback from everyone and I too strongly feel that Durin should be brought back to Edain Mod. If not in hero form then at least if King Dain refuses the One Ring.

Durin VII IMO should be the best Dwarf of the Game, that is not to say the best hero or character, he should be better than Thorin II or either Dains. 
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 4. Jun 2017, 22:44

Your analysis makes a lot of sense! I think he should be the most powerful too, as the seventh coming of Durin.

May I suggest something? In the Path of the Edain map, there's an ally named Thogar, who is the son of Thorin III. I know he isn't canon, but there's no given name for Thorin's son, so... How about Thogar gets added as a regular hero, and gets the Durin VII ring upgrade? It would be cool to add a bit of "Edain Lore" as Angmar have, but add it to Erebor, and have an Edain existing character be Durin VII.

I don't know if it is a really good idea, but it would help avoiding to create new models and such, since he is already in the game.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 4. Jun 2017, 23:37
I like the idea of Thorin III's son becoming Durin after taking the Ring. The only problem I can see is what role he should have as a regular hero. Erebor already have a scout (Nori), a Mass Slayer (Gimli), a Supporter (Dain), a Building Destroyer (Gloin) and Tank/Hero Killer (Thorin). Is there any sort of role that could be filled without completely overpowering Erebor?
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 5. Jun 2017, 00:49
Guys, just a brief comment (my personal thoughts):
Is the citadel such an irreplaceable spell? i mean i know it is a canonic spell coming from vanilla, very well fitting for the dwarves. I like it too and i also use it a lot, but i don't deem it necessary: is in fact a much stronger version of the lone tower, in this sense it is redundant imo.
We have to consider that the last row of dwarven spellbook has never been changed since Edain was born (as i remeber from 3.8.1). Maybe in name of the innovation, fresh air, uniqueness of Edain 4 could we consider to change totally the last row? (i would call it "the Revolution of the last row"  :D :D ). My idea is to replace the Citadel with the summonig of the Earth Hammer proposed by DieWalkure. In logic of the new spellbook would work as long term spell (permanent building/weapon). An image of the weapon we are talking about:

(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/mods/1/21/20792/thumb_620x2000/7.1.jpg)

It is unique, sophisticated and reflect all the engineering abilities of the dwarves. Using that beautiful weapon to cause earthquake we would no more need the earthquake spell and we would use this free slot to summon Durin (temporary, short-term effect). Even more epic would be the summoning of  an hero battalion composed by Durin and the other six fathers.
What do you think? Imo this configuration Earth Hammer+Durin is the best and it is worth the replacing of the citadel and earthquake :)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 5. Jun 2017, 01:15
Alright to Aule, Oakenshield, and Julio:

Aule, the reason why the earthquake spell isn't going to be removed and the reason why Durin would NOT have all six of the fathers is because they are either dead or missing in action during the Third Age. This is not Dagor Dagorath mod, so Durin VII is the only person listed--we don't even know if other founding father reincarnate like Durin does. Given that Belegost and Nogrod had kings/leaders that went to Moria, I would say Durin is the only one that reincarnates.

Oakenshield and Julio: Thanks for the love and support guys, Well I see the hero list that you guys gave, could Thorin III's son be a pure hero killer or hero interferer? Just a suggestion, remember, Edain Team may not like the idea of another hero, that is why I proposed Dain's refusal of the Ring to get him.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 5. Jun 2017, 01:35
That's true, maybe the Team won't want a new regular Hero. If they wanted one, I think it could be one of the options you said.

On another note, would Durin VII keep all of Durin's original abilities?
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 5. Jun 2017, 05:50
Julio: I don't know, a lot of his former abilities got shuffled to Dain and Thorin. I think he should keep some, but he should have some new ones as well.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 5. Jun 2017, 09:37
Aule, the reason why the earthquake spell isn't going to be removed and the reason why Durin would NOT have all six of the fathers is because they are either dead or missing in action during the Third Age. This is not Dagor Dagorath mod, so Durin VII is the only person listed--we don't even know if other founding father reincarnate like Durin does. Given that Belegost and Nogrod had kings/leaders that went to Moria, I would say Durin is the only one that reincarnates.

My dear dk, never thought about Dagor Dagorath even for a second. I didn't play, I don't play, and I won't play That mod ;). My fault I didn't explain better the reason behind a possible summon of Durin and/or seven fathers in the spellbook, I will do that,  I'm looking for some element in the lore  ;).
Anyway, Even if I'm not totally sure about your proposal for the reason I stated some comments before, the theme of reincarnation of Durin  is one of the most accredited and undoubtedly canonical :)
if we find a way to introduce Durin for all the three kingdoms using this theme, then I would be probably 101% satisfied :)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 5. Jun 2017, 10:23
Another thing to consider is that each dwarven ring hero has a specific theme (Thorin's greed or Dain's defense obsession). Durin would need to have his own theme as well. The only one I can think of is something to do with Moria. Maybe he can craft mithril weapons and armour for other heroes and units as an example.

Concerning the Earthquake spell, could there just be a graphical change to the castles.This could explain how the dwarves can summon an earthquake any where as they would have the machinery in their base. The actual effect of the spell wouldn't change.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 5. Jun 2017, 10:39
I wouldn't mind having Durin solely available for Erebor, given its magnitude as the mightiest Dwarven realm ever existed in Middle-earth (in the Third Age, at least). I'll let you discuss freely about lore-related matters; just, as I wrote earlier, I think it would be better to focus on refusal as a theme to follow, in order to detach from the One Ring. This is the advice I would feel like giving you. For example, the refusal of such artefact, parallel to Galadriel's case, could maybe lead the hero who refused to be blessed by the Valar (Aulë), thus bringing Durin's memory back to life. I'm quite sceptical about the possibility of the legendary hero becoming an own spell; he's always been a Ring feature and the article concerning the new (overhauled) Dwarven spellbook shows clearly that they're not willing to give him any role as a permanent/ordinary character in the faction. The answer is therefore likely to be linked with the One. The only difficulty will probably be the construction of the lore foundations which sustain the concept, but I'm sure you will sort that out well, under the guidance of Blue.

Regarding the earthquake, I think that's the right opportunity to propose our suggestion related to the Earth-Hammer. I hope Aulë and anyone interested will follow me in the new thread I am soon to open :)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 5. Jun 2017, 17:12
I wouldn't mind having Durin solely available for Erebor, given its magnitude as the mightiest Dwarven realm ever existed in Middle-earth (in the Third Age, at least). I'll let you discuss freely about lore-related matters; just, as I wrote earlier, I think it would be better to focus on refusal as a theme to follow, in order to detach from the One Ring. This is the advice I would feel like giving you. For example, the refusal of such artefact, parallel to Galadriel's case, could maybe lead the hero who refused to be blessed by the Valar (Aulë), thus bringing Durin's memory back to life. I'm quite sceptical about the possibility of the legendary hero becoming an own spell; he's always been a Ring feature and the article concerning the new (overhauled) Dwarven spellbook shows clearly that they're not willing to give him any role as a permanent/ordinary character in the faction. The answer is therefore likely to be linked with the One. The only difficulty will probably be the construction of the lore foundations which sustain the concept, but I'm sure you will sort that out well, under the guidance of Blue.

Regarding the earthquake, I think that's the right opportunity to propose our suggestion related to the Earth-Hammer. I hope Aulë and anyone interested will follow me in the new thread I am soon to open :)

I will surely follow you  8-) the earthquake need some changes. What I always feel about it is that it has a clear mechanics and body, but it apparently comes from nowhere. I would say the spell it is substantial, but it needs a "soul", a proper spot and name :)

As for Durin: well, if the team is immovable about a spell introduction of the character, another path has to be chosen. I'm here to find an optimal solution too :)
Erebor is the most important of course, but mine is a game related consideration: I would prefer to have a more "symmetrical" concept, in order to not force the player to choose erebor if he/she want to revive Durin :) .

I'm always looking for information before writing, wise Diewalküre. And maybe I can also summon you to help me in the lore matters  xD :D

About lore, i would consider three different legends/beliefs:
 

Quote from Silmarillion:

Zitat von: The Silmarillion, Of Aule and Yavanna
Since they were to come in the days of the power of Melkor, Aulë made the Dwarves strong to endure. Therefore they are stone-hard, stubborn, fast in friendship and in enmity, and they suffer toil and hanger and hurt of body more hardily than all other speaking peoples; and they live long, far beyond the span of Men, yet not for ever. Aforetime it was held among the Elves in Middle-earth that dying the Dwarves returned to the earth and the stone of which they were made; yet that is not their own belief. For they say that Aulë the Maker, whom they call Mahal, cares for them, and gathers them to Mandos in halls set apart; and that he declared to their Fathers of old that Ilúvatar will hallow them and give them a place among the Children in the End. Then their part shall be to serve Aulë and to aid him in the remaking of Arda after the Last Battle. They say also that the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves return to live again in their own kin and to bear once more their ancient names: of whom Durin was the most renowned in after ages, father of that kindred most friendly to the Elves, whose mansions were at Khazad-dûm.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 5. Jun 2017, 17:17
Well I have listed the canon reasons innumerably. Thanks Diewalkure for the support. I would like to see Durin as an extra hero with Erebor as the son of Thorin III, and given the timeline I posted it makes sense. However, if Edain Team hates the idea of adding another hero to Erebor then I am okay with Durin being a summon by King Dain--similar to Galadriel's refusal of the One.

Aule: We can't find a canonical way to introduce Durin as canon to all three Dwarf Kingdoms. Durin VII is most likely born in 2965 after the events of the Hobbit. Thorin III would be 99 years old by this time, same age Dain was when he had Thorin III. There is no way to make a canonical argument for all three factions. Remember, Durin VI was killed by the Balrog and had to stay dead for quite awhile. Durin VII is known as the last incarnation for a reason. I am sorry I don't have better news for you, but this is the truth. True, reincarnation is not fully understood so it is up to the interpretation of the reader.

Oakenshield: I like the theme you semi set up for Durin, on the project I have been working on, this is what sets Thorin III's son above other Dwarfs, it is his ability to make weapons like Durin the deathless, after all, the famed artifact of Durin's ax was crafted by none-other than Durin himself. Now I don't make the items of Thorin III's son as good as Durin's I items, but they are better than anything that the Dwarfs have outside of Orcrist the Goblin Cleaver. So I think a mithril theme would be good but I don't feel it should detract from the Veterans of Khazadum.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 6. Jun 2017, 17:54
Aule: We can't find a canonical way to introduce Durin as canon to all three Dwarf Kingdoms. Durin VII is most likely born in 2965 after the events of the Hobbit. Thorin III would be 99 years old by this time, same age Dain was when he had Thorin III. There is no way to make a canonical argument for all three factions. Remember, Durin VI was killed by the Balrog and had to stay dead for quite awhile. Durin VII is known as the last incarnation for a reason. I am sorry I don't have better news for you, but this is the truth. True, reincarnation is not fully understood so it is up to the interpretation of the reader.

Maybe you are right that there's no other ways, dkBlue, to extent Durin to all kingdom  8-| (at least not through the reincarnation theme).
The 3 different topic i have listed above are more or less equally affected by this sort of mysteries and uncertainties. So as you wrote to construct a solid lore-bases we have to put something that is our intepretation, but which makes sense of course :) .

The theme of refusing of the One it's a good starting point, i agree totally with that. I developed also an alternative in case we cannot make use of a new hero:

- King Dain Ring Mechanic : if he accepts the ring, he gets the current abilities developed by ET.
if he refuse, he received the "Gift of Aulë" : the smith of the valar reward Dain because he refuses the evil artefact, he send his first son to fight besides dwarves folk, to enspire and help them against evil.
The resurrecting mode  of Durin it depends on we can add a new hero or we have to pass through another way.
In the first case your idea of the reincarnation will be developed. In the second case i propose a return to the origin : Durin statue (the current name is simply heroic statue if i'm not wrong?). The basement of this proposal resides in the first+second of the three lore-topic i have wrote:



 If Dain refuses the ring, the Gift of Aulë would work in the following way: the Maker temporary sends the spirt of Durin into the statue, resurrecting him from the stone (from which he was initially created in ancient time). For a long time Durin is available on the battlefiled, staring from level 10 (similar to Boromir mechanic). When the time runs out (or if he's killed) the spirit of Durin returns to the  halls of Mandos, and his body simply turns back to stone (also graphically i think it would be a cool feature).
Technically speaking the system would work like Galadriel : you have the two buttons of evil or good choice, if you choose the refusing, firstly you click on the button, and secondly on the statue (or on the hero in your proposal) to inject in it/him the spirit of Durin.
I deemed a temporary summonig more suitable for my own porposal, because in this way you have two different (strategically) possibilities : the permanent effect (the ring), or a temporary mighty hero (blessing of Aule).

Wheter my proposal is extendable to the other two chieftain (Lord Dain and Thorin) i cannot say. Technically speaking yes (there's no need to have a new hero). But, if we consider King Dain the only able to refuse the One (because it's older,wiser, more experienced, he refused the offer of Sauron in the book), then it's again impossible.  In any case could be a solution if we cannot create a new character for Erebor. Consider also this : my idea is not so different from the old Durin resurrection system. In the old one, the evil power of the ring was used to transform the statue permanently. In my idea instead, the blessing of a Vala is used for the same goal with a time limited effect.
 I rely on your judgment guys  :)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Dain@ am 7. Jun 2017, 15:07
Good afternoon

Dear members of the community, I understand that the discussion on this topic is acute and important for the worshipers of dwarf, but nevertheless I need against the resurrection of Durin, by any means. If we take into account the timeline on which the data of the fractions are based, it is definitely clear that Durin has long been dead! And can not be resurrected in any way, not even by the reincarnation of his spirit. I understand that this can be painful, but it is not less likely to be uncanonical and unfair to other factions, because then most people will want to suggest resurrecting what kind of a symbolic hero for each faction. I have to oppose such an idea!
As for the ring of mechanics, it seems to me that Torin and Dane are both very important and significant characters, and I see no reason why we should return to the resurrection or the reincarnation of Durin.
However, I admit the fact that very often Tolkien describes various moments in dwarfs when they somehow connect themselves from Durin, very often they are called descendants of Durin. Therefore, I propose the following compromise: to make the book abilities: Sons of Durin. - All dwarf heroes receive a certain bonus. (I'm still working on a concept, since we already have a new spell book, and therefore requires an adequate and correct proposal). It seems to me that this would be a good compromise. Of course, this ability can be combined with the "Final Stand" or as a separate one. But in any case, I wonder what you think ??
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 7. Jun 2017, 15:55

You raise good points,but one of the suggestions was making Thorin III's son Durin VII, that wouldn't be against the lore because it is known that Durin VII, the last reincarnation of Durin, came after Thorin III, so he could perfectly be his son. I wouldn't find that to be against the lore.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 7. Jun 2017, 15:56

Dear Dain, i understand perfectly your point, but i have a slightly different vision. The mod and the relative faction connected to it are MOSTLY based on the 3rd Age. Mostly and not TOTALLY.
Your are right, could seem unfair or uncanonical, but i think a bit of Myth and past given to any faction it is a very cool feauture and can only make this mod even greater. With a "bit" i mean under strict limitations.
There are just two spell in the game which bring a bit from the past, that are the Last Alliance and Power of the Past age, and are exquisitely fitting. I personally wouldn't mind if fans of other factions (which don't have those ancient feauture) propose something from the past (be it a spell, an hero or whatever you want).
You know, it's like having the "cherry on the cake", something apparetly less important, but that brings uniqueness and enrich the Tolkien-culture present in the mod. I repeat : all of this under certain restrictions. For example in the case of Durin the feature is related only to the refusal of the One ring. And also i even proposed a limitation in time (the Last Alliance is also a time-limited summon).
It's like the jing and jang : the mod is mostly based on 3rd age, but is a little bit of extra-contents that make it perfect.
I hope you get my view :)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 7. Jun 2017, 19:54
Look guys, if you read the timeline for Durin VII, you'll see that it is NOT against the LORE. And I am all about Lore. I have done the dates and shown that it is not against the Lore (concerning Erebor faction) anywhere else it would be. But Durin VII is the descendant of Thorin III, a son counts as a descendant of his father, and Durin's have longevity.

So I have proven my point many times over. One thing you guys CANNOT say is that it is un-canonical. I stand for everything that is canon with the lore. So that is why I suggested Durin returning with Erebor and Erebor only.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 7. Jun 2017, 20:55
So that is why I suggested Durin returning with Erebor and Erebor only.

And this option would also spare us the burdensome task and risk of disrupting the current systems of the other two factions, centred on the leaders of the very faction (a quite recent concept). Henceforth, as Blue said, this I deem the best solution. I don't want to interfere or dictate a line to follow, but I would wholeheartedly suggest all of you develop the proposal with the focus on Erebor.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 7. Jun 2017, 23:03
And this option would also spare us the burdensome task and risk of disrupting the current systems of the other two factions, centred on the leaders of the very faction (a quite recent concept). Henceforth, as Blue said, this I deem the best solution. I don't want to interfere or dictate a line to follow, but I would wholeheartedly suggest all of you develop the proposal with the focus on Erebor.

DieWalkure,Blue, and other fellows.
If you deem Erebor the only one (i agree that is the mightier of the three) then my will is to follow the wishes of the community and to find a common point between our views  :).

dkBlue, your timeline make sense, but still i have not figured out how to implement suitably Durin VII, unless we make him a recruitable hero. Supposing we can do it , your idea is still to channel the spirit of Durin I using the ring as you wrote before? And your view of refusal is the a passage of the ring from grandfather (Dain) to grandson(Durin VII)?

I found a very good model of Durin VII, that is the intepretation of the DVZ mod (one of the archived one in MU). i like it very much:
(http://abload.de/img/durinknigqgsj8.jpg)

The complete article where it's coming from is this one:
https://modding-union.com/index.php?topic=28524.0 (https://modding-union.com/index.php?topic=28524.0)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 8. Jun 2017, 03:49
AuletheSmith: That picture is awesome and I would whole heartily love a new hero for Erebor. If we are going this route and making him the grandson of Dain and a ring hero, then I still feel we should go with the same premise and it can read as thus...

"Should (insert Thorin III son's name here) get the ring he will go on a quest to destroy the ring. (Insert) will channel the spirits of Durin and proclaim himself Durin reborn."

Something like that but I really like the figure you chose, however, I would like him to look more like gamesworkshop's durin model (if possible) but if not I am content with this. Also it might be good to show this model as a difference between Thorin III's son and how he looks once he proclaims himself Durin.

I love the model Aule and I think we should move forward with him as a recruitable hero, if not then we can try to implement the rejection of the ring idea for King Dain II of Erebor.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 8. Jun 2017, 11:06
That is the depiction of GW your are talking about ?


It seems different from the current style of Edain (the miniature I think is 10 yo or more) but I like it :)
There's no problem for me in a possible introduction of a new hero. The fact is that is not easy because Erebor have a quite complete set talking about the specific roles:

- Dain: unit supporter
- Thorin III: hero killer/tanky
- Gimli : mass slayer
- Gloin : building destroyer/interferer
- Nori : scout

Another idea is to unlock him as a recruitable hero in the citadel in case Dain refuses the ring. More or less what happen when you unlock Sam and Frodo with blessed Galadriel.
In this case at a cost of 3000 you can recruit him as permanent hero, with the abilities (or some of them) and the power of Durin the Deathless.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 8. Jun 2017, 13:44
I agree with this Aule, and yes that was the picture I was talking about, though now that I look at it, I think I like the model you showed previously. What Edain could do to correct this error, Thorin III could be more of a hero killer, while Durin becomes the tank, or vice versa. A lot of people have complained about Thorin III and that might be a good compromise.

However like I said, if this idea is too much for them. Then the refusal of the Ring is the best option, and I think Diewalkure is more in favor of that idea too. So maybe we should go with that. I like the idea of purchasing Durin for 3k I think that is fair.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: kingsjewel am 11. Jun 2017, 19:09
I think Durin VII is just the descendant of Thorin Stonehelm, not his son. (The line isn't permanent) But the idea and the linked picture isn't bad.
(https://image.ibb.co/ecwdsa/Royal_line_of_Durin.jpg)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 11. Jun 2017, 22:28
We don't know that either way. A descendant can mean son, though if it were Thorin III's son, why wouldn't Tolkien say? But in truth, Durin VII had to be alive during WOTR due to the timeline.

I see Durin VII being a loose end that was never really cleared up, much like the Blue Wizards. I think if Tolkien had time to expand this, then Durin VII would have to be Thorin III's son.

If you take Durin I who lived approximately 2,395 years, and Durin VII is the last--by WOTR, if he was Thorin III's son he would be only 53, and the timeline you showed us show that Durin VII is right after Thorin III, I mean, Thorin 3 is 155 by the end of the WOTR (3021) which = 1 FA. Now I believe he lived longer than 250 years old, I mean Dwalin was 340 and Dain II was still kicking but at age 250. So the timeline fits the description that I have stated.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 12. Jun 2017, 01:24
I think Durin VII is just the descendant of Thorin Stonehelm, not his son. (The line isn't permanent) But the idea and the linked picture isn't bad.

It seems, in the end, the most canonical way to reintroduce the myth of Durin.
I myself proposed a possible way to introduce the forefather and greater of all Durin I the deathless (through both his original body and spirit), but it is a intricate road.
Making further researches i discovered theme of reincarnation seems the most canonical to construct a solid lore basement. Tolkien mention that the Dwarves buried Durin I in Moria, but they consider him as in a "longeval sleep" rather than really dead.
His spirit rests with his body awaiting for day would ultimately awake.
Focusing on this last point : it could be more logical to interpret his "awakening" as a spiritual reincarnation , rather than his original body walking in middle earth again. A real resurrection of is body from its coffin would appear less canonical i supposed, since those type of so to say "necromancy stuff" is usually associated with evil (Sauron).
But anyhow we are discussing about the first Forefather, not a random king of the dwarves. He was made directly from the hands of Aulë so also a real resurrection (spirit and body) could be possible in some magical way (maybe through the blessing of Mahal himself  xD). It is a very complex field in my opinion  :D
At least, with respect to other great heroes  of the past, he's the only one (if someone is more learned correct me) of which we have clear references of his possible return (independently of what way is considered more lore-accurate).
 
Anyway, returnig on our primal idea : there's no detailed info about Durin VII, except he's the Last king of the dwarves, and he definely reclaims Moria. We have to add some elements imo, as canonical as possible (Blue just started the process introducing the timeline of his birth).
So, stating that:
- he's the son/heir of Thorin III.
- he was (probably) born before the war of the ring and the death of Dain II.
How to connect him suitably with his grandfather and the theme of refusal of the ring?

Two brief scenario to start the development:

Scenario 1: Dain gives up the ring to his grandson, which he's recognized as the true reincarnation of Durin I. He's so the only one who can  use it in a proper way, without being corrupted by its evil influence. With the one ring his spirit is further strengthen, awakening totally the original power of his ancestor.
In this concept there's no a total detachment from the evil artefact, because is  used anyway.
However, like Gandalf the white, the evil power of the One is used to do good.
In game: when you activate the refusal option, Durin VII is summoned near Dain, and if he dies the ring is dropped.

Scenario 2: Dain totally recject the One, because he doesn't want to help his proud people using the weapon of the enemy, it can only leads the dwarves to destruction.
Dain passes the ring test and the dwarves folk is blessed by his maker Aulë : the smith of the Valar send a gift to his creatures, totally restoring the ancient might (sorry DieWalküre if i breaked the copyright rules on your invention :D :D) of Durin through the last true heir Durin VII.
In game: when you activate the refusal option, Dain VII is unlocked as a recrutable hero in the citadel, at a cost of 3000.
The ring is totally unused (as Blessed Galadriel case) and if Durin VII dies the ring isn't dropped.

What is the best 1 or 2 in your opinion? I'm still thinking about the abilties of Durin VII. If make them almost identical to Durin I or change some of them.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 12. Jun 2017, 05:20
Aule, I like Scenario 1 better. I feel the Valar were not meant to intervene so much, and I feel that Dain giving it to his grandson and his spirit being strengthened by the Durin's of the past, would allow him to resist the Ring and awaken Durin prematurely. To me, this works the best.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 12. Jun 2017, 12:20
Aule, I like Scenario 1 better. I feel the Valar were not meant to intervene so much, and I feel that Dain giving it to his grandson and his spirit being strengthened by the Durin's of the past, would allow him to resist the Ring and awaken Durin prematurely. To me, this works the best.

As game-play perspective I prefer the first either : it is much canonic and more fun to have the ring "droppable", because such is the nature of the One. And also make sense the restoring of the spirit through it, bacause as well as Gandalf the white I deem Durin (meant as spirit ) able to control the ring. In this case is not A total resurrection like in the past, but is meant to be more like a reinforce, an awekenig of ancient abilities.

Regarding the second one I would say it could be much popular because a total refusal brings to a pure blessing, separating the ring from the spirit of Durin (for instance DieWalküre suggested something like this as I recall). However this theme probably fits with Galadriel only, as an isolate and unique case in which the Valar directly care about people of middle earth. For sure Galadriel can be connected to Valinor easier than Dain II.

What do you suggest to add to the character to enrich his background story?

 
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Jun 2017, 14:32
The first option doesn't displease me either, for it nonetheless encompasses some kind of decent detachment from the One Ring. Of course, the evil artefact is still used, but for the good and the focus still remains on Durin's spirit/incarnation, which is what allows the character to bear that burden. I had not thought about Gandalf the White, I confess; I find the example proper, as I like the design and motive of his Ring form. Needless to say, Galadriel's system would then retain its unique characteristics and this is of the utmost importance for the game. In the end, I would be equally satisfied with the first solution, were you to elect that way :)

As for the Valar, I think that a blessing from them should not be regarded as a true direct intervention in mortal affairs. They would never leave their blessed continent anyway, with the prospect of sending a host being even less likely, lest additional wounds be inflicted on Arda. But I also understand why you would be more comfortable with having the idea of a blessing be related to Galadriel only (given her ethereal and noble nature). And, yes, more heroes should rediscover their own ancient might 8-)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: kingsjewel am 12. Jun 2017, 17:47
I think I support the first option. I like that Durin VII concept. I think about the current ring-hero system that Thorin's is correct .The Arkenstone, what has more less power than the One Ring,  also corrupted him. There isn't too much information about young Dáin in the books, but in the movies, he is an agressive, hot-headed warlord, hence he maybe accept the One Ring, if he know about it. Old Dáin is more wise and he refuse Mordor's 'help' in the books. I think your idea is quite acceptable and canon-compatible, and so 'Durin' also would return in the game.
+1
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Jun 2017, 21:18
Just as a moderating remark, if you feel that you have almost come to a conclusion, it should be better to prepare a draft of what will be the main presentation post, comprising the lore background of the proposal and the concept itself; additional details may be included later, once the whole thing gets more and more polished. But only if you deem the final design proper for being finalised.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 12. Jun 2017, 22:58
The first option doesn't displease me either, for it nonetheless encompasses some kind of decent detachment from the One Ring. Of course, the evil artefact is still used, but for the good and the focus still remains on Durin's spirit/incarnation, which is what allows the character to bear that burden. I had not thought about Gandalf the White, I confess; I find the example proper, as I like the design and motive of his Ring form. Needless to say, Galadriel's system would then retain its unique characteristics and this is of the utmost importance for the game. In the end, I would be equally satisfied with the first solution, were you to elect that way :)

As for the Valar, I think that a blessing from them should not be regarded as a true direct intervention in mortal affairs. They would never leave their blessed continent anyway, with the prospect of sending a host being even less likely, lest additional wounds be inflicted on Arda. But I also understand why you would be more comfortable with having the idea of a blessing be related to Galadriel only (given her ethereal and noble nature). And, yes, more heroes should rediscover their own ancient might 8-)

We should definely go towards the first proposal i deem it  a good compromise among all the various configurations we have made (gameplay,lore, ect). I was meaning exactly what you write about the Valar : i see them as gods that can eventually intervene (undirectly), not physically, but sending gifts/blessing or someone who can rapresent their own (see the Istari). But yes to improve the uniqueness (one of the main characteristic of Edain 4.0) we can keep this divine matter related to the Lady of Light, and concentrate the attention on the reincarnation, which would be a certain new special feature of the game and a very important piece of Dwarves belief/mythology :)

Just as a moderating remark, if you feel that you have almost come to a conclusion, it should be better to prepare a draft of what will be the main presentation post, comprising the lore background of the proposal and the concept itself; additional details may be included later, once the whole thing gets more and more polished. But only if you deem the final design proper for being finalised.

I was thinking about this just today because i just spammed too many comments on this matter and maybe it is not a moderating way to act  :D :D i apologize if i also bored the readers  xD. Now that we are near to a stable idea, i'm gonna start to collect in a unique post the salient points, and try eventually  also to finalize the skill-set of our character, which will be (possibly)  the hearth of the concept in game :)

P.s : everyone interested in the concept is invited to contribute, starting from Blue which is the first promoter and developer of all the Durin VII stuff :)


 
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 13. Jun 2017, 00:17
Oh no, I didn't mean anything negative with my statement. Have you noticed how much we have 'spammed' for the other proposals? :D

All contributions are equally relevant for me. I just wanted to inform you of what should be done, if you are ready to give this concept an ultimate fashion. I won't take part actively in the process, as I am busy with other tasks that need be taken care of.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 13. Jun 2017, 00:53
Oh no, I didn't mean anything negative with my statement. Have you noticed how much we have 'spammed' for the other proposals? :D

All contributions are equally relevant for me. I just wanted to inform you of what should be done, if you are ready to give this concept an ultimate fashion. I won't take part actively in the process, as I am busy with other tasks that need be taken care of.
Ahahah :D :D Don't worry Diewalkure, with 'spamming' i didn't mean as negative but rather than a more joking way to say i have post a lot of comments in a short time and with so much ideas as a content  [ugly]
For me is the same i love to share the ideas and more than anything else to find the optimal point between different views :)
I can guess what are you working on, since probably the next spellbook will be of your favourite faction?   :P  I'll wait for the answer from the official news 
 xD.

I'm almost ready to do it, it will require some time for sure :)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 17. Jul 2017, 11:02
Hi guys  xD
After more than a month i'm back to this thread. I'm glad to announce that, thanks to the precious collaboration of dkbluewizard, we finally complete the concept of Durin VII.
Many thanks to dkblue, first promoter of the whole idea of Durin VII, tireless reader, lore-expert : he crafted a wonderful timeline and story and help me a lot about dates,lore and correction of the whole work.
Feel yourself free to discuss any detail of the work,about lore,story,concept, everything. I subdivided the work in three different spoiler, since images,quotes,writings all together occupy a significant space  xD. Here we are:

Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Jul 2017, 17:47
Well, the great endeavour and exceptional effort you two poured into the concept is simply apparent. I don't have much more to add. The lore premises of the whole proposal are well thought and they indeed render your suggestions very consistent. I imagine it has taken quite a lot of time to seek for the right lines in the books and to link them to your general reasoning; I also fancy a lot what you've done with the event (remembrance) narrated in the Council of Elrond, in order to address the theme of refusal. Well done! This is really a marvellously conceived work and it was also beautifully presented :)

Only, pardon me if I missed some crucial passages, why did you opt for that particular model? Isn't the current one apt for the situation, given that it was expressly created to suit a noble and legendary characterisation? Also, I thought that every reincarnation of Durin bore an almost identical resemblance to the other reincarnations of the Dwarven ancestor, so that it is justified to retain the same model (at least, theoretically speaking).
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 17. Jul 2017, 18:27
Hi Diewalkure :)
first of all i'm very happy that you like the whole work  xD: yes it requires a lot of time especially in finding the various passages and in the creation of the various images. I think dkblue spent a lot of time as well :)
As for the model: now that you make me notice, i have not deeply explained this choice.
I like the armor (it fits very well with Erebor) and general design. In particular the two model i inserted rapresent the evolution of the character: the first before the travel to Moria, the second (from rank 5 on) when Hannar finally finds the equipment of Durin I. More than anything i believe that a more young looking fits well with Hannar :  during the   war of the rings (so when he can possibly receive the ring) he's around 50.
Now you could say me: yes but we can simply modify the model of Durin I a bit to adapt it for Durin VII, making him younger. I cannot say it is a bad idea, since i'm fond to the old model as well :)
For example an alternative to my concept could be:
- From level 1 to level 5:
(http://abload.de/img/durinkhazadpojms.jpg)
-From rank 5 on: the same model but with the old armor design of durin I.

I'm open to suggestions. I think anyway that the aspect DVZ mod Durin VII is similar, in term of "somatic traits", to the old model :). Do you find it so out of place?
I also keep in my mind the same "image" of Hannar from the start to the end (as you can see in the pictures): a black beard skilled smith.
I want also the opinion of dk on the matter, being him my colleague in the creation of Durin VII  ;)

Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Jul 2017, 21:09
In my very personal view, be it clear, the current model exemplifies the utter and otherworldly transformation of the character in Durin, when he finally accepts his real blessed nature as the reincarnation of such a legend. On another side, this would also spare you the need to find other graphical alternatives, being the vision of Edain quite sound for the purpose, although I know for sure that reasonings of this sort kind of kill the whole creative process [ugly]
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Ectheldir am 17. Jul 2017, 22:28
This proposal looks amazing! You have my full support with this.
Only one little thing: I really don't like the idea of the ring being used without corrupting the user. I know Gandalf the white also does this, but I do not like it there and he is still the Istari with the strongest mind, not some dwarf. Maybe you could voice it a little different and say that he is instead send on the mission to destroy the ring and discovers his powers in the progress.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 17. Jul 2017, 23:32
In my very personal view, be it clear, the current model exemplifies the utter and otherworldly transformation of the character in Durin, when he finally accepts his real blessed nature as the reincarnation of such a legend. On another side, this would also spare you the need to find other graphical alternatives, being the vision of Edain quite sound for the purpose, although I know for sure that reasonings of this sort kind of kill the whole creative process [ugly]

Yes if we would simply replace with the old model i will feel a bit as you said Diewalkure  [ugly]. As i said i like very much the old model, it is the best Durin of all mod. But in this case i feel better with something new. And i see the trasformation more "spiritual" than phisical.

This proposal looks amazing! You have my full support with this.
Only one little thing: I really don't like the idea of the ring being used without corrupting the user. I know Gandalf the white also does this, but I do not like it there and he is still the Istari with the strongest mind, not some dwarf. Maybe you could voice it a little different and say that he is instead send on the mission to destroy the ring and discovers his powers in the progress.

it is a delicate issue the one you raised Ectheldir. The fact is, following our idea, it is not simply "some dwarf", but the heir of Durin, forefather and most powerful dwarf of all time. The theme around the refusal it is exactly this: Dain gives the ring to Hannar because only a spirit similar to the first ancestor can control such a power. As for my personal opinion, i would stay with this idea.
Anyhow, if i remember well, not so long ago dkblue himself proposed something about a travel to destroy the ring. Am i right dk?
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Jul 2017, 23:52
As i said i like very much the old model, it is the best Durin of all mod. But in this case i feel better with something new. And i see the trasformation more "spiritual" than phisical.

You know, we are in the realm of Arda, where magic turns anything spiritual into something very much physical too :D

Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 18. Jul 2017, 06:09
In regards to Aule and Ectheldir, the resistance of the One Ring, is because of all the Durin's knowledge combined into Durin VII. As discussed, Durin VII bears memories of the Durin's of old and thus the spirits within him allow him to resist the One Ring. This is a plausible technique--I mean think of the accumulating levels of knowledge Durin VII would have. If you follow all the lines of Durin, Durin VII would know the intricate details of the One Ring and the corruptive influence of all evil. Therefore I believe Durin VII could resist the One Ring and travel to destroy it in mount doom in much the same way Frodo and Sam did.

We must ask ourselves this with what is presented:

Does this conflict with the History of Durin VII: NO
Does this timeline conflict with the History of Arda: NO
Is Thorin III's descendant still Durin VII: YES
Does this complicate or dissociate with the Lore: NO

Based on these premises, game balance, and lore effectiveness--I see no reason not to include this fundamental experience to the game as it works effectively and is supported by the lore.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 18. Jul 2017, 10:34
As i said i like very much the old model, it is the best Durin of all mod. But in this case i feel better with something new. And i see the trasformation more "spiritual" than phisical.

You know, we are in the realm of Arda, where magic turns anything spiritual into something very much physical too :D


Diewalküre, You make the clearest of examples in this case  :D :D.
Sorry if i seem stubborn (like a dwarf  :D) about the design. But i don't feel good in a total variation from the model i proposed, i'm instead open for a good compromise  ;)

In regards to Aule and Ectheldir, the resistance of the One Ring, is because of all the Durin's knowledge combined into Durin VII. As discussed, Durin VII bears memories of the Durin's of old and thus the spirits within him allow him to resist the One Ring. This is a plausible technique--I mean think of the accumulating levels of knowledge Durin VII would have. If you follow all the lines of Durin, Durin VII would know the intricate details of the One Ring and the corruptive influence of all evil. Therefore I believe Durin VII could resist the One Ring and travel to destroy it in mount doom in much the same way Frodo and Sam did.

Indeed. As i wrote it is not "some dwarf" but the incarnation of Durin, basing on the lore the most powerful of the various heirs (from II to VI).
Dk what do you think about the model variation proposed? 
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 18. Jul 2017, 16:51
You know Aule, I actually like your model, but I am up for a compromise as well. I like the uniqueness proposed by you for Durin VII, but Diewalkure has a point about Durin's looking like each other (which I agree with). To me, as long as Durin is included in the Erebor faction and back in Edain, I am okay with whatever model is chosen.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 18. Jul 2017, 18:28
Exactly, the main point is the tale that wants every Durin to resemble his predecessors. Yet, adding to that, I feel that we should make usage of what we already have at disposal, which is totally Edain-based. Changing things feels like tempering with a sound concept to me; a quite unnecessary choice. In my personal opinion, of course.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 18. Jul 2017, 22:29
Exactly, the main point is the tale that wants every Durin to resemble his predecessors. Yet, adding to that, I feel that we should make usage of what we already have at disposal, which is totally Edain-based. Changing things feels like tempering with a sound concept to me; a quite unnecessary choice. In my personal opinion, of course.

I understand your point Diewalküre. I agree that the model/graphic is not the primal thing, the concept is of course the most important. We know that every Durin resamble Durin I, in some way. But even if they are very similar they are not exactly the same. I want to preserve at least something unique about the character.
I know is not a good moment for the graphical/modeling department of ET. I don't want to force them doing too much extra-work in this sense. I like the old armor, because is something unique not coming from movies but a brilliant invented design (the author is Adamin?). Why not fuse the body of my model with the old armor? With some retouch?
As I propose before could be good to use a normal armor before rank 5, then Durin finds the equipment of his ancestor, so he gets the old armor and axe (I think the models I find of the archived mod are ready as well).

If you are trying to say me if I ask something like that the probabilities that the team consider our idea drastically decrease I think I have to give up  :D  :D in the name of all work and passion me and dk spent for this concept.
Jokes apart, I would like to preserve something of my model if it is possible, to let something unique about Hannar, not only Durin VII ;) otherwise I will eventually be happy as well with the old model if the community deem it more suitable and reasonable ;) it is not so fundamental to compromise the all project  ;)
Just an experiment (seems not so bad):

Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Dain@ am 20. Jul 2017, 17:12
Hello! In my personal opinion, we should look at Durin in a different plane. Durin as a physical hero in my opinion can not be resurrected / reincarnated or somehow some images returned to Edain mod. Until recently, I thought that maybe you can make Durin a hero for Erebor, but I still understand that you can not return it to the game because of unreliability, and inconsistencies on a time scale. Even though we know that the last dwarves  king is Durin, son of Thorin, I do not think that only the name itself gives us the right to swing that it is the same forefather of the dwarves. The current system in terms of balance, and ease of implementation through the Dain / Thorin, seems more appropriate to me. Yes ! There are shortcomings, but all are easily repairable. Nevertheless, I suggest that Durin be implemented in a different way. It is known that very often gnomes said (especially from the royal dynasties) that they are the descendants of Durin. In principle, the only way to somehow underscore the belonging of the dwarves to their forefather, is that it is possible to add to the spellbook the ability of "Sons of Durin" which would give a small bonus for dwarven heroes. (But not the increase in damage or armor,). For example, each or a separate hero (leader) will receive a certain specialized ability that would reflect the former grandeur of dwarves art. (Construction,, blacksmithing, gold mining and expensive metals). But it is unequivocal that from the physical Durin should be refused. This is my opinion.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 20. Jul 2017, 18:10
Dain@ that sounds more complicated than what we presented, and if you look at the timeline and canon (which Aule and I put together), you'll see that the timeline is perfect and works. So that is negated in your argument. Our proposal is totally lore friendly and goes more with facts than opinions.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 20. Jul 2017, 18:26
Hi Dain :)
I respect your opinion, really. I think the point you raised is the very reason of why this all thread/poll made by DieWalküre is born :) I agree that the old system can look not consistent and not solid : to reborn Durin from a statue is not so canonical, and as I just wrote sound a bit Of "necromancy". However, looking at the lore, the theme of reaincarnation seems the most canonical. It is something that, say what you want, is part of the dwarven culture.
I can affirm, without any claims, that our system is way more solid than the old one (in term of lore at least). I don't get why you deem the physical form "unrealiable". Durin VII is the last king and he reconquers Moria: if Durin I will eventually return, undoubtedly Durin the Last is the most probable heir which could host the spirit of the forefather.
The time scale has been demonstrated in the presentation, even if We added something by our interpretation (lore-based in any case).
As for the spellbook: I don't think the team wanna introduce new powers. As I understand they are very happy with the last they presented ( a part of minor changes).
That's my view  ;)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Dain@ am 20. Jul 2017, 19:19
Dear AulëTheSmith and dkbluewizard . I am a Dwarf worshiper myself. But as for Durin (son of Thorin) as a separate hero for Erebor, I agree that both the timeline and knowledge allow your offer to have very high chances of success. I'm just against the reincarnation of the forefather Durin in some form. (No matter Torin, Dain or another hero). He's just dead long ago, and in my opinion he can not be reincarnated. After all, if the son of Thorin Stonelm, bears the name Durin, this does not yet imply the reincarnation of the pro-father himself. In my understanding (I do not know if it's appropriate, but it may be analogous when Theoden in the Paleonor Fields called the Rohirim into battle, calling them Eorlings.) - that is, thinking that they will inherit something, what kind of valor is the kind of valor, so Durin and herself are the incarnation Certain qualities are peculiar to dwarves. I'm not against mechanics and the implementation system, I'm against the very concept of reincarnation (Even for Thorin and Dain).
Your work deserves praise, after all it is very intelligently and canonically invented, but as for me here is the same problem as Imaldris - the last aliance (Yes canonically and epically), but is it appropriate to bring back the army and heroes who have long been measured on the battlefield ???
I sincerely ask you not to take this text as a negative or an insult.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 20. Jul 2017, 21:55
Dain@, I really don't know what to say about you being against the whole reincarnation thing. Cool, I guess...but if you go by the timeline and what is written in the books, the Dwarfs believed it--and I don't see how Theoden calling Rohirim Eorlings matches. But whatever...
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 21. Jul 2017, 01:13
Dear AulëTheSmith and dkbluewizard . I am a Dwarf worshiper myself. But as for Durin (son of Thorin) as a separate hero for Erebor, I agree that both the timeline and knowledge allow your offer to have very high chances of success. I'm just against the reincarnation of the forefather Durin in some form. (No matter Torin, Dain or another hero). He's just dead long ago, and in my opinion he can not be reincarnated. After all, if the son of Thorin Stonelm, bears the name Durin, this does not yet imply the reincarnation of the pro-father himself. In my understanding (I do not know if it's appropriate, but it may be analogous when Theoden in the Paleonor Fields called the Rohirim into battle, calling them Eorlings.) - that is, thinking that they will inherit something, what kind of valor is the kind of valor, so Durin and herself are the incarnation Certain qualities are peculiar to dwarves. I'm not against mechanics and the implementation system, I'm against the very concept of reincarnation (Even for Thorin and Dain).
Your work deserves praise, after all it is very intelligently and canonically invented, but as for me here is the same problem as Imaldris - the last aliance (Yes canonically and epically), but is it appropriate to bring back the army and heroes who have long been measured on the battlefield ???
I sincerely ask you not to take this text as a negative or an insult.

Don't worry Dain@ your words are not negative neither an insult :) We are here to discuss, and debates are the soul of the forum  ;).
As for the reincarnation: it is something in which the dwarves believe,  and there are many sources about this theme. The belief is not only for Durin but also for the other six fathers. The heirs that bear the name of Durin resemble in some way Durin I himself, in the way they look but also in some skills. I think that Durin VII, being the last one and basing on the lore, could be the one who most resable his forefather.
A very key-word in all this matter it is the meaning of "Durin". If you look at the pdf we inserted (i find it very interesting especially for a dwarven fan) there are many names of the dwarves that Tolkien taken from the old norse mythology. The majority have the meaning which is not apparently linked to the personality of the character:  for example Gloin (Gloinn) means the Glowing one, Dwalin (Dvalinn) means lazy.
Durin (Durinn) is instead an exception, the name means "sleepy" or the "sleeper": it is not a case the professor chosen this meaning. In fact the dwarves don't consider him as really dead, but rather than in a deep sleep. The spirit of Durin never really goes to the halls of Mandos, but is waiting for the moment in which he finally awake. I think choosing the reincarnation we can adress this last concept in the best way: not a phisical awakening but spirtual, in his last heir which is Durin VII.
I really believe that is a good road to follow, i don't think i will change this general idea  ;)
Sources:

Zitat von: History of Middle Earth XII: Last Writings
… "The Dwarves add that at that time Aulë gained them also this privilege that distinguished them from Elves and Men: that the spirit of each of the Fathers should, at the end of the long span of life allotted to Dwarves, fall asleep, but then lie in a tomb of his own body, at rest, and their its weariness and any hurts that had befallen it should be amended. Then after long years he should arise and take up his kingship again.”

Dwarven names:
https://is.cuni.cz/studium/predmety/index.php?do=download&did=67368&kod=ARL100258

Dain@, I really don't know what to say about you being against the whole reincarnation thing. Cool, I guess...but if you go by the timeline and what is written in the books, the Dwarfs believed it--and I don't see how Theoden calling Rohirim Eorlings matches. But whatever...

Eorlings because they are "sons" or "heirs", in some way, of Eorl the Young, first king of Rohan. Eorl is a legendary hero for Rohan, as Durin is for the Dwarves (but in different order of magnitude and different power of course). So i think Dain@ was trying to say that, from his pov, the best way to honor these epic characters is to introduce in game some power or spell that keeps alive their memory.
I think, anyway, the case of Durin is unique and the reincarnation/awakening theme is unique as well; you cannot find something similar in other folks of Middle Earth (neither via Eorl the Young).
So it worth the general concept we conceived imo, with similar abilities of Durin I;)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 21. Jul 2017, 16:43
Your work deserves praise, after all it is very intelligently and canonically invented, but as for me here is the same problem as Imaldris - the last aliance (Yes canonically and epically), but is it appropriate to bring back the army and heroes who have long been measured on the battlefield ???

Considering the Last Alliance spell as an example, I personally accept the logic of similar features, because they belong to highly specific or exceptional contexts, such as an ultimate spell or a Ring feature, as in this precise case. In light of these premises, the great uniqueness that akin solutions bring outweighs the negative sides by a far margin. Just think about Imladris; the potential loss of the Last Alliance spell might seriously be devastating for the conceptual design of the very faction, since the the whole motive of the cinematographic prologue of LOTR is of prime importance for the game. Something we could hardly do without.

I guess you should try to view Durin's situation in the same exceptional perspective :)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 22. Jul 2017, 00:52
Considering the Last Alliance spell as an example, I personally accept the logic of similar features, because they belong to highly specific or exceptional contexts, such as an ultimate spell or a Ring feature, as in this precise case. In light of these premises, the great uniqueness that akin solutions bring outweighs the negative sides by a far margin.

Indeed. In this case, with respect to Last Alliance, we have also lore confirmations. So it is even less "forced" so to say. I mean, nowhere in the lore is written about a return of Gil-Galad, Isuldur etc. IN this case instead it is repeated in different books that Durin can return, i posted in this thread all the lore available about the matter, and explained it. i don't know how to do more to convert the "scepticals" to the dark side of Durin VII  :D :D
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 22. Jul 2017, 01:33
No, there is not much left to prove in regards of canonical matters. You have done a splendid work in that direction; your effort is simply apparent. I would say that what needs still be discussed thoroughly is graphics, although we've already debated those issues and the nature of the topic involved is certainly not that definitive to come up with a final answer. However, if there are further opinions to submit to the general judgement, that ought to be done, of course :)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 22. Jul 2017, 01:58
Diewalkure, i shall make a FOR/AGAINST list like other topics, valid for the general concept. In the meantime we can discuss about graphics, because it is a delicate issue for the team at the moment. I'm quite happy with a Durin VII wearing the robes of his ancestor. If it is too much, i can leave the idea of the double armor, even if it would be more interesting (same system of Elrond,Haldir, Boromir: from lev 5 on they receive new armor and bonus for themself or units/hero, that was my inspiration, and very Edain 4.0 style), and it would underlines better the path of the character.
What do you think about the middle way i conceived? it is something very similar about Beorn/Grimbeorn: models are the same but with slightly different graphics.

P.s: i have putted in my signature the link to the very post of the proposal; in this way ,despite many comments in the thread, is easy to find  ;)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Isildurs Fluch am 22. Jul 2017, 12:52
First of all, I´m absolutely in favor of this concept.
The refusal of the Ring fit´s perfect for the old Dain and the rebirth system is a much closer to the lore, than before. And I definitly can see you reconsidered most of the abbilities and changed them slightly.

Maybe it´s also worth to think about changing the ring-concepts of Ered Luin and Iron Hills a bit, to make them more sinister to show the corruption of the ring on Thorin and young Dain:
In contrast to those two, I don´t think, that there should be a choice for Erebor.
If Dain get´s the ring, Hannar/Durin should be summoned instantly without another option, as it is with Elrond.
The choice system should stay unique for Galadriel. The player already made a choice by choosing Erebor as your faction, and I suppose everybody would anyway go for Durin.

One other point we have to think about is balance:
The other factions just increase the power of a hero, while Erebor get´s one for free.
To balance this i have an idea:
The hero should be named Hannar in the beginning, because at this point his true nature as Durin VII isn´t revealed yet.
In this form he could be a lot weaker, than in his final form, because of balance and his young age. The first design is perfect, a very fitting simplistic, but noble dwarf. The picture you posted is also very good and should be used as his palantir-picture.

One could think about changing his abbilities in this form and make him more "normal".
The passive abbility should be changed, maybe to Mastersmith, which strengthens all the Upgrades of Units or something else.
His final slot would be the Reconquest of Khazad Dum, which isn´t linked to his level, but costs some ressources (maybe 1000?).
This is good for balance and also very fitting, because such a conquest is very cost-intense.
After that is done his true nature is revealed and he gets the exact set of abbilities you proposed. I would change the name of the last abbility to Fire of Mahals forge, because that´s, as you have correctly written, the dwarvish name for Aule and therefore a lot more fitting, than the elvish name.
The design could be a bit brighter and more mythical in my oppinion, but your design is a good starting point. Also I find the old palantir-picture of Dain fits very good for his grandson and Durins last appearance.

I hope my ideas helped the discussion and we will end up with such a good concept to "make Durin great again", that the team can´t refuse and we will see him soon in action  (**)
May I translate this concept, after we discussed my suggestions and came to an agreement, into German?
Yours sincerely
Isildurs Bane
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 22. Jul 2017, 15:39
First of all, I´m absolutely in favor of this suggestion.

Danke Isildur, i will insert your name in the list  xD
Your ideas are well thought, starting from Dain:

-The current accepting system is very good and balanced, but i'm not personally fond of it. In the name of uniqueness could be a good idea to cosider the refusal only, keeping the double system a feature of Galadriel  :). IN this way Hannar would be summoned directly near Dain, making the King the only ring-hero in game which summons an epic individual Hero.

-As for balance: i wrote it multiple times, everything that involves more about Hannar intrigues me, so i like your suggestion  xD. This would make Durin VII more difficult to obtain and so goes in favor of balance an uniqueness. Of course this involves some drawbacks: more work for the team in different field (coding for new abilites, new graphics, etc) and in hard times, despite i think the models i posted are ready in the hands of the founders of DVZ mod. Anyhow i'm patience, and i'm willing to wait more and obtain a very genuine implementation.
A cool idea would be to have the possibility to combine him with an horse-pack at level 5, just as you have to do with Veterans of Khazad Dum. In this way the player have to wait the return of Hannar as Durin VII, and it is also forced to build a travel camp: all of this could fit very well and it is balanced.

- Specifically for the graphics, the last double concept i conceived is the one that maybe all agree, because it contains the old Durin armor (only the face and beard are of Durin VII).

Being dkbluewizard my colleague in the work, i'm waiting also for his judgment about the ideas you proposed  :)

Oh god I forgot to answer you about  German translation sorry Isildur  : yes of course you can ;) thank you very much for your help   xD
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Isildurs Fluch am 22. Jul 2017, 17:01
I´m happy to see, that you like my ideas  ;)
I haven´t read everything in this thread, because it´s already very long and therefore haven´t seen the modified Dain-modell and I couldn´t find it, when I quick-searched the thread.  :(
Edit: I think I found it: do you mean this one?
If this would be the case, I like it a lot more, than the other one, because he looks more like a mythical king. [ugly]

But I think the shield and shoulder armour doesn´t look that good and could use some rework and he could have a bit more armour in general...

Maybe it would be wise to repost the whole concept in the end of this thread in a spoiler to make it easier for newcomers to start in the discussion (maybe including my ideas?). The startpost is always aswell a good option for this, but you didn´t start this and so I guess it´s not possible...

Linking the transformation of Hannar to Durin VII to the travel camp is also an interesting concepts which fits nicely in the already existing Moria-mechanique, but it has it´s drawbacks aswell:
The system I suggested is much easier in technical terms and does work always if the player has enough ressources. A more limitating and complicated system will cause fewer appearences of DurinVII, which is not what we want.

If you fear the team will deny the concept because of a lot of effort they would need to implement it, we could make two alternatives. One short and focused on the essentials using already existing modells, etc. and one long and epic as we would see it as an ideal implementation of Durin.

What do you think about my thoughts on Thorin and young Dain?
And am I allowed to translate and post it into the German section?
Yours sincerely
Isildurs Bane
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 22. Jul 2017, 22:45
Isildur, I think you should definitely proceed with the translation in German of the proposal. Only in this way will we have a clearer portrait of the Community's feedback and it would be certainly helpful to spark some interest there. I know that the German Community is generally fond of and much interested in Dwarves. Should you need help, I could always help you in keeping the English forum informed of the German consensus.

By the way, speaking about the models of the Das Vierte Zeitalter Mod, two members of its team (the very founders, I suppose) were FG and Radagast, who now are part of the Edain Team itself. So, if we really needed permission to use that content, I don't think there would be serious issues with utilising again their own art for the sake of the Edain Mod; if not, you could always ask for their counsel on the matter. They surely know more about it.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 23. Jul 2017, 11:31
Oh god I forgot to answer you about  German translation sorry Isildur  : yes of course you can ;) thank you very much for your help   xD

I apologize Isildur, while you were posting I was editing my comment because I forgot to answer you about the translation  [ugly]. Anyway of course you can translate, thank you very much for your interest and support! I'm glad you extent the concept also in the German forum :)

-As for Lord Dain and Thorin : I like the current system of the two heroes, but
Anyway I agree with many people who say it can be improved further, especially for Dain. I mean the difensive system of ring-Dain is something devasting, if you have him near buildings you can create an army in a blink of an eye  [ugly]. And the fortress he can summon is very strong and a tribute to vanilla. Anyhow as you said an aggressive system seems more suitable for him, rather than defensive. At least in the movie he's an impulsive character always ready to jump into the heart of battlefield.

- yes the figure I mentioned is that one: the general texture of Durin I armor is very good but it can be improved in terms of quality, it worth to remake it in high definition :)

-as for The horsepack: didn't know about those technical problems  [ugly].
The general logic is very good and simple, because you only have to pay. Anyhow I would prefer something else to a simple cost of resources,always  keeping the logic you proposed.
Another idea could be: once Hannar reach level 5, he unlock the ability expedition to khazad dum. One battalion(or even 2 or 3) of elite warriors(Arkenguard in case of Erebor) is chosen to accompany Hannar in his resolutive travel to Moria: left clicking on the battalion(s), Hannar and the elite unit(s) will eventually disappear. When he returns, he's now Durin VII with the armor of his ancestor. Regarding the units who fight with him, they come back as well, it would be cool as a special feature if after the travel they become veteran of khazad dum (a more rapid and alternative way with respect to horsepack).
Anyway it this way the player have to recruit one or more battalion of elite unit, and Hannar must reach rank 5: is it balanced in your view? You can also adjust the time of the travel in order to make all the stuff more balanced.

I will adjust the general presentation inserting more ideas and alternative models for Hannar/Durin VII.  ;)
As a moderation issue: DieWalküre, do you think is it better to shift all of this in an independent new thread to make things easier? If not I can eventually repost the presentation. I'm only afraid that new many comment will make the post disappear again 
[ugly]


Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Isildurs Fluch am 23. Jul 2017, 13:17
I definitly know the struggle in a thread, which wasn´t made with a concept but about a topic, were multiple concepts are created. I would guess it´s ok, to open a new thread just for your concept  for this reason, were the startpost always contains the latest version of the concept, but I´m not the moderator, so Walküre has to say...

I haven´t read your edited comment and were to quick to answer  :D
I will translate it soon, but would need the latest version of the concept to remain true to your concept. I don´t want steal the the honor for this wunderfull concept of yours  :P

I like your new idea for the reconquest of Moria even more, because it is very balanced:
Hannars last abbility is the Reconquest of Khazad Dum linked to level 5. This abbility is used on 3-4 elite-units, which dissappear for a while together with him. After a while they return as Khazad Dum veterans together with DurinVII. Durin starts again on level 1, but is now a much more powerfull and aged hero.
So this ring-system takes some time: In the beginning your enemy still has a good chance of killing Hannar and claiming the ring, but if you are able to get DurinVII you should most likely win the game soon.
I´m not even sure if it is necessary to let DurinVII level at all. He also could just appear on level 10 together with Veterans on level 5, but than the time the player has to wait would need to take a little longer. What do you think?

About Thorin and young Dain:
I like the general idea of their system at the moment, but find the implementation not ideal:
Haven´t played Edain for a while and dwarves are normally not my faction, so I don´t know their ring-abbilities very good. As I understood it, their abilities are more based on the general character of the faction, not on the characters of those two iconic figures, in Dains case even contradicting it a bit. If anybody knows them by heart or is able to look it up quickly, I would be very thankfull if he could post them here. I personally gave my BfME-disc to a friend, so he could play and I can focus on university.  8-|

I find the idea very interesting to use the ring-system of the dwarven factions to compensate the weakness of the particular faction while considering the characters of Dain and Thorin, which the ring definitly would corrupt in different ways:
I must say it is a pleasure to share ideas with you, I view this discussion as very constructive and I´d really love to play with this system for real  (**)
Yours sincerely
Isildurs Bane
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 23. Jul 2017, 15:39
I could edit the initial post and insert the main proposal, but I deem opening a new own topic the best solution, just as I had done with Narya; after a strenuous and tough debate on Gandalf and the lore, we have opted for a new topic, for the sake of clarity and simplicity. Only, I feel like giving you this vital advice: you should go for the new thread when the core of the proposal is already well defined and known by the other users. Additional elements may always be added at a second moment, as I did with Círdan. Just, the presentation post of the new topic ought to present a very, very much, clear portrait of the situation, if you are also to start gathering feedback via the for/against-mechanism. Graphics and icon pictures help a lot equally. In case you were in need, I'm always at anyone's disposal :)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 24. Jul 2017, 01:25
Isildur: it is a pleasure to me too to share ideas with you  xD. Don't worry i'm not afraid you steal honor  :D. I'm one of the two author but the concept is now on the hands of the community, so keeping the general idea of the concept solid, i'm glad to hear any new idea to improve all the other aspects, in particular the abilities and the implementation of the character, which has to be as reasonable and balanced as possible  :).
Regarding the dwarves realms, your idea of compensation is reasonable. To be precise about Thorin, yes he's quite selfish, so if you look at the aspect of personality only, is right to not let you collect the resources he gains into battle, but rather readress money towards something else. From a gameplay  point of view, the current system is not so bad, giving you a huge amount in battle but a very low production in buildings, forcing you to fight if you want to earn: this involve the risk you are talking about, so that Thorin have to risk his life and the one of the other dwarfs only for gold (otherwise you have a very weak economy) [ugly].
As for Dain your idea is opposite to the current one: the ring system increases esponentially the merit of the faction, the defence. I think in this case the team make a precise choice to put all the faction towards defence, making also the personality of Lord Dain as defensive ( it sounds strange because you could expect that behaviour from King Dain, the one who defended the gate of Erebor from a huge army of Easterlings  [ugly]): i suppose they make this choice in the name of uniqueness, with the standard logic of  Edain 4.0 to give a precise direction to each unit hero etc.

Regarding Hannar: i shall talk with dkblue, my colleague in the work. I will elaborate a new updated work in which i will eventually insert more options and also this last idea of a weaker starting hero. I think i will structure the work in two main options:

-the first more Edain team-friendly  [ugly], in the sense that it requires less work for the implementation in all the senses.
-the second more complex (involving these last ideas) but it would be more balanced than the first one.

Of course lore and story will remain unchanged, i will modify only the last spolier of the presentation :)

Diewalkure: when the work will be completed, i will post it in a new thread, making the things a lot easier. Then Isildur can traslate it for the German forum  :). This intense discussion and many comments means we have sparked a lot the interest around Durin return, and i'm very happy for that. I think the work it is practically ready as it is, but Isildur rightly raised the issue of the  balance, something that probably me and dkblue we have discussed less.
The core itself will remain uchanged: the refusal of the ring involves Hannar/Durin VII summon  :). Thank you very much smart and masterly moderator! your resources are infinite!  xD





Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Isildurs Fluch am 24. Jul 2017, 09:11
Regarding the dwarves realms, your idea of compensation is reasonable. To be precise about Thorin, yes he's quite selfish, so if you look at the aspect of personality only, is right to not let you collect the resources he gains into battle, but rather readress money towards something else. From a gameplay  point of view, the current system is not so bad, giving you a huge amount in battle but a very low production in buildings, forcing you to fight if you want to earn: this involve the risk you are talking about, so that Thorin have to risk his life and the one of the other dwarfs only for gold (otherwise you have a very weak economy) [ugly].
Still stronger than any other faction, but still I get your point. But wouldn´t it still work, if the relation would be the other way round?
I´d let him increase the production of mineshafts passively, which still makes it attractive to fight to get more settlements in your hands and give hime a bit money for every killed enemy if he is nearby.

Concerning young Dain you are right, I would let the young and the old Dain switch passive abbilities, when you get the ring, because it´s much more fitting to the lore:
Young Dain was the one who made his soldiers advance by forced marches in full armour the whole way from Iron Hills to Erebor to atack an army of Men and Elves.
He doesn´t seem to me like the thoughtfull defender he was in his later days.
I guess the Battle of the Five Army, where he fought first time side by side with Men and Elves, and the death of his relative Thorin really changed something in his character. Additional young Dain already is a more offensive fighter in the defensive faction beeing the only mounted Dwarven hero...

Besides that I don´t find the current ring-function very ideal concerning gameplay. What use do I have for a ring-function that strengthens me on a point, where I am already unbeatable? In my oppinion it´s far more attractive to compensate the weaknesses of the subfaction.
For Ered Luin this is already somehow working, it only needs to become more elaborated than at the moment and getting a bit darker, because of the corruption of the ring. For Erebor your defensive Durin-concept also fits in nicely. Only Iron Hill-Dain drags somehow behind.

I hope my ideas on that became a bit more precise  :P
Could someone post the exact ring-abbility-set of Thorin and young Dain, than we could talk about them in more detail. I can´t look them up at the m,oment for reasons I already explained...

I will also think about an abbility-set for Hannar and would eventually post them here if I find something fitting besides Mastersmith.  ;)
Yours sincerely
Isildurs Bane
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Ectheldir am 24. Jul 2017, 12:22
Ring-abilities:

Dain:

Level 1: Durin's Heir - Due to the whisperings of the Ring, Dain's pride rises to unfathomable heights, and he declares himself the seventh and last reincarnation of Durin. He puts on mithril mail, gains improved stats and inflicts area damage. The Ring fuels Dain's peculiar nature and makes him upgrade his defense into a bastion: allied buildings in a wide radius gain +50% armor and damage and +25% production speed. The Hall of Warriors now trains units instantly. If there is no dwarven building in the vicinity of Dain, he loses 50% armor, damage, and speed. (Passive ability)

Level 3: Mount/Dismount - King Dain is able to mount his war boar. Left click to mount/dismount.

Level 7: Defend Durin's Realm! - Dain orders the defence of Durin's realm. For 30 seconds, every allied building and all dwarven units close to a dwarven building are invincible.

Level 10: Bastion of the Dwarven Realms - Dain orders the construction of a giant fortress which becomes a home for units of all the dwarven realms and fights back against enemies. You may only have one Bastion in the game at the same time.

Durin's Forge - Dain calls up flames from the deep in a medium area around him, setting on fire all enemy units caught in his spell.

Thorin

Level 1: Kili and Fili - Thorin permanently summons his nephews Kili and Fili to fight by his side. The dwarves will be summoned at the same level as Thorin.

Level 1: Durin's Heir - The pride of Thorin grows immeasurably through the whisperings of the ring. He declares himself as seventh and last reincarnation of Durin. He puts on Mithril Mail, obtains improved values and splash damage. The ring feeds Thorin's desire to gather all treasure of the dwarves. Allied resource buildings produce 75% less; instead, Thorin and allied units loot huge amounts of resources from fallen foes. (Passive ability)

Fire of Durin's Forge - Thorin calls up flames from the deep in a medium area around him, setting on fire all enemy units caught in his spell. 

The Immortal - All allied units on the entire map become invulnerable for 10 seconds.

Level 10: Gleam of the Arkenstone - The sight of the Arkenstone kindles the hope in the hearts of Thorin's dwarves and inspires fear in the hearts of his adversaries. Nearby enemy units are temporarily stunned, while allied units temporarily gain +50% damage.


Edain-wiki is your friend :P
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Isildurs Fluch am 25. Jul 2017, 09:49
I totally forgot, that this usefull Wiki even exists... :D

I´d like to present my ideas for the ring-functions of Dain and Thorin. Concerning Hannar I will wait for Aule, as the whole creation of this character was his and his friends idea. This will be a longer post and most of it is not about Durin or the ring-function at all, but it´s aim is to complete the topic by focussing on Dain and Thorin, thus the ring-heroes of the other subfactions.
My hope is to integrate it into the other concept to get a whole new ring-system for the Dwarves with alot more authenticity.
If it´s in the wrong place you can move it to another thread or write me and I will do it myself.

Standart abbilities of the two different versions of Dain:
I now re-read not only the ring-concepts of Dain and Thorin, but also their normal abbilities and it came to my mind, that Dains character-developement as described in the books (and in parts seen in the movie) is, as I alredy mentioned, somehow contradicted.


Based on this thoughts, I would switch two abbilities between the versions of Dain:

I´m aware, of the fact, that the Edain-team didn´t chose the abbility-sets for no reason and it all fits in the overall theme of precise specialisation for the different Dwarven subfactions, but I don´t see it in this particular case as a very big problem:
Dain is a late-game hero, so when he appears on the battlefield the player normally would have the opportunity to buy upgrades, to cope with the realm-specific weaknesses.
Besides that all the effects are either temporarely or only affecting nearby troops, so the over all theme of the subfaction would still remain.
I even find it more interesting to have the opportunity to somehow change tactics using Dains abbilities.
Just strengthening your already existing specialisation seems somehow boring.
Futhermore I decided to create those two ring-heroes competely new and give them entirely individual abbility-sets leaving Mahals Forge for DurinVII.

Thus DurinVII as a more defense based hero would fit in much better next to those two and all three of them have different assignments.

Additional it doesn´t make much sense for me to have a corrupted ring-hero with defensive strategy, because this would in the end compromise Saurons cause. Erebor-Dain or rather Durin VII wouldn´t have this problem, because there is no corruption of the ring involved. All his strength comes from himself.

Dain Ironfoot as ring-bearer
As mentioned before, the ring takes advantage of young Dains pugnacious nature making him even more proactive and impulsive and therefore leaving his home undefended.
Level 1: Blood lust (passive)
Due to the whisperings of the ring Dain becomes paranoid seeing foes everywhere and wanting to destroy them immediatly. He develops an Addiction for fighting and starts to enjoy brute force more and more. He completly forgets to reflect his actions and leaves his home undefended.
Dain puts on a Mithril mail, gains improved stats and inflicts area damage. He now uses the Baruk Khazad-abillity automatically in regular intervals, when in fight. This abbility provides stronger boni with each war cry and his own atack damage increases, too. All buildings gain passivly 25% less armour, so the player is forced to rely on his atack.

Level 3: Mount/Dismount

Level 5: Get ready for War! (passive)
Dain wants to focus on war and expansion, not on innovation.
All Hall of Warriors and Forge Works recruit much faster, but upgrades are more expensive.

Level 7: Vendetta
Dain scrapes all his forces together to take vengance for all the losses the Dwarves have suffered and smash his hated foes. Only a few are left at home for mining or other works.
For one minute all the Dwarven units on the map move faster and cause higher atack damage. In the meantime the ressource-production decreases.

Level 10: Meeting of the Dwarven realms


Thorin Oakenshield as ring-bearer
Level 1: Fili and Kili

Level 1: Dragon Illness (passive)
The ring takes advantage of Thorins desire to restore the wealth of past ages. He now is willing to risk everything even the lives of his friends to enlarge his treasure, tolerating no opposition and coqardliness at all. Mining and conquest of new ground are his goals and he is ready to fight anybody who stands in his way. His closest friends are shocked and lose their courage.
Thorin puts on mithril mail, gains improved stats and inflicts area damage. All mines and stoneworker produce more ressources, units gain more ressources per kill, but all the other heroes lose armour.

Level 3: Dwarves first! (passive)
Thorins despisement for everything "undwarvisch" deepens more and more and he focusses on taking advantage of his allies, only selling Dwarvish goods for horrendous prices but still expecting unquestioned loyalty. His allies feel cut out and grant unwillingly only the absolute minimum of support.
Costs for Upgrades of buildings and troops are reduced extensively, but Laketown-Units take a lot longer to recruit.

Level 6: Defend our Treasure!
For a short time Thorin and all troops next to Ressource-producing buildings are invulnerable.

Level 10: Gleam of the Arkenstone

As you can see those two mechanics play out completely different: Young Dain aims for a fast definitive strike, while Thorin wants to win the fight through a superior economy.
Each specialisation has also it´s downside, as it should be common for most "good ring-heroes" and you might have noticed, that in a way Thorin and Dain are opposite to each other, because their downside weakens the other tactic.

Old Dain (Erebor) as written earlier refuses the ring and summons Hannar instead as the ring-bearer. Therefore he isn´t changed at all, only his passive abbility is improved a bit:
Level 1: The incorruptible Ally (passive)
Dain became wise and highly respected not only from his kin, but also from Men and Elves. His Dwarven stubborness mixed with the knowledge he got from Gandalf about the true nature of the enemy (and maybe the Dwarven rings), made him immune to the influence of the ring instead giving it of and leaving this matter to his grandson Hannar.
Not only the hero, but also nearby allied buildings provide increased armour and fear-resistance. Additional Dale-units are recruited faster and/or cheaper.

Sadly I´m competely inexperienced concerning picture-processing programms and therefore not able to upvalue my concept through suitable palantir-pictures for the abbilities. So if anyone who likes the concept and takes delight in this kind of work would help me with that I would be very thankfull and mention his work of course in the concept... ;)

I hope you like my ideas and am open for critique. I know I changed the system radically, but found this necessary to make it more interesting.
Yours sincerely
Isildurs Bane

In Favor:
1. kingsjewel
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 27. Jul 2017, 00:25
Hi Isildur :)
As i just wrote, the considerations you made about the two normal forms of Dain and King Dain make sense, more than the current one. King Dain fits more as defensive, it is the chieftain of a big (and stable) realm, and he defended it against the hordes of Mordor until death.
Lord Dain Ironfoot is instead the Lord of iron hills, a smaller realm, and he's more aggressive and inclined to war.

The point is: in the past (from patch 4.1 to 4.3) the abilites were reversed, in the same way you proposed (King Dain defensive, Lord dain offensive). Then from patch 4.4 on the team exchanged the abilities between the two Dain, because of the new ring system and also ,as we discussed, to emphasize the peculiarity of each realm  through the respective leaders. Said that, i don't think they have the intention to switch the two character again for the second time  [ugly]. As i understand, the so called "Dain dilemma", usually mentioned in the forum, is exactly this "dribble" of the skills between Young and old Dain, along with the defensive obsession of Lord Dain Ring hero  [ugly].
As for Thorin, your skillset is good because it ecompass not only the greed, but also the stubborness and blindess of Thorin, who is so sick for gold to forget who is his enemy and who is his friend (well reflected when you cannot recruit lake town unit and in the heroes discouragement ;)).
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Isildurs Fluch am 27. Jul 2017, 11:23
First of all thanks for the compliment for Thorins skillset  :)
BotfA definitly gave me a perfect inspiration, as they showed this character change in a very drastic almost overdone manner. Maybe he could also get an alterd voice set only coming from this scenes of the movie  ;)

Concerning Dain:
It wouldn´t be the first time, that the team revoked a recent change.
If the reasons are good enough,  the change back to the former distribution of aspects between the two Dains is inbedded in a different ring system and doesn´t destroy the overall focus of the subfaction, I doubt they would fundamentally oppose the change back to the roots.
In my oppinion one of the ring-heroes either the Iron Hill Dain or DurinVII must have an aggressive focus, they shouldn´t be all defensive. Young Dain makes the most sense for me and as I said, I don´t see big problems concerning gameplay.

Maybe a statement of one of the team members would help in this matter, because I can understand, that you hesitate to implement something in the concept that has a high possibility of refusal.
After all we could integrate my ideas for Dain and Thorin only in the long, ideal concept, not in the short pragmatic one to ensure the focus remains on the core which is the implementation of DurinVII as ring-hero for Erebor.

When I understood you right, you already said there will be two alternative concepts one short and pragmatic, the other extensive and ideal as we would see it to increase the possibility of implementation...
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 27. Jul 2017, 13:13
When I understood you right, you already said there will be two alternative concepts one short and pragmatic, the other extensive and ideal as we would see it to increase the possibility of implementation...

Yes that was my initial idea, but i think that, after some discussion with dk, we have almost reach a more balanced and compact version of the skillset of Durin VII, such as now his escalation to power il slower (i've started following your suggestion about balance) ;).
I decided to keep the idea of balance and insert it in the concept as it is, keeping the rest more or less the same,because this way the work is compact and less complex. Also, the story of Hannar is rather a background to insert the character in Erebor than a name to use in game. I would like myself to developed more about him (as i just wrote before), but i realized that if we summon him as Durin VII directly, we keep that sort of "mysterius aura" around him, such as it is in the lore ;). All of these considerations should make the work easier to implement and more "soft" so to say ;). Anyway i have to finish it, and evetually refine some points.

In my opinion one of the ring-heroes either the Iron Hill Dain or DurinVII must have an aggressive focus, they shouldn´t be all defensive. Young Dain makes the most sense for me and as I said, I don´t see big problems concerning gameplay.
Maybe a statement of one of the team members would help in this matter, because I can understand, that you hesitate to implement something in the concept that has a high possibility of refusal.
Agree. The aggressive style lacks a bit in the dwarves.

After all we could integrate my ideas for Dain and Thorin only in the long, ideal concept, not in the short pragmatic one to ensure the focus remains on the core which is the implementation of DurinVII as ring-hero for Erebor.
I will create after the new thread, but i would focus it on Durin VII only. Not because i have something against you or your concept (i like also the Thorin ideas), be it clear  [ugly]. Only because the primal objective of the concept is the return of Durin in the most canonic way, and i wouldn't mix too much arguments in the same thread, especially if you want to gather opinions  ;).
Said that, if you need help about anything (you mentioned the palantirs and graphics for example) just ask me  ;)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Isildurs Fluch am 27. Jul 2017, 18:04
I will create after the new thread, but i would focus it on Durin VII only. Not because i have something against you or your concept (i like also the Thorin ideas), be it clear  [ugly]. Only because the primal objective of the concept is the return of Durin in the most canonic way, and i wouldn't mix too much arguments in the same thread, especially if you want to gather opinions  ;).
Said that, if you need help about anything (you mentioned the palantirs and graphics for example) just ask me  ;)
That´s totally understandable for me. Letting Durin return should be the primary goal of the concept and anything else will draw to much attention to other aspects of the concept. The only problem is, that my concept is pretty much build up around yours, so it can´t really stand alone...
So I will probably just wait for your concept to pass and than reenter the discussion with my addition to your idea in a seperate thread. Am I allowed to integrate my concept into yours in the German translation I wanted to create?
Some help with the graphics for the abbilitys would be awesome  (**)
Yours sincerely
Isildurs Bane
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 27. Jul 2017, 21:14
I wouldn't be concerned about the opinion of the Edain Team on the matter. Getting to know their thoughts could be useful indeed, but that is quite unlikely to happen, unless the concept has truly reached a definitive form. The version which is to be submitted to the general judgement. Developers are more likely to discuss things internally, leaving the burden of carrying on the debate to moderators. That is my prime duty :)

As for the translation, I think it would be better if you found a general design with which you both agree, so that the German translation is genuinely a loyal transposition from the English forum; surely, additions may always be added, as long as all parties of the two Communities are aware of them. Developing two different discussions at the same time might be quite strenuous. You should try to manage things as I did with the concepts of Galadriel and Narya. I'm always at disposal, should you need help.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: kingsjewel am 28. Jul 2017, 21:04
Isildurs Fluch, your new ring hero concept is simply wonderful (especially Thorin's) . I just love it.
There are fantastic ideas in this post, I hope we will see them once in game too :)
I re-registered to write this answer :D
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Garlodur am 29. Jul 2017, 15:51
Hi there!

I wanted to share my thoughts on the topic since this is a topic that intrigues me a lot, and it encourages me that other members are so passionate about this reconceptualisation of Dwarven Ring heroes. I apologise if my thoughts seem all over the place, but I want to ask and introduce vital questions.

Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 29. Jul 2017, 18:05
I propose therefore to leave out the backstory around Hannar (who is also completely made up, besides being based on a loose premise). It seems Aule and dkbluewizard have come around to a similar conclusion.

exactly Garlodur! we decide to leave hannar to the background story. he's useful to introduce the character in the timeline. And also it was cool to make something by our interpretation, to give the character a sort of personality :). 
However as you said, in game he will appear directly as Durin VII, with a mysterious aura around him as in the lore.

Thirdly, concerning the in-game implementation I have a few ideas to make the design stand out next to other Ring Heroes. I agree that somehow the individual progress as a hero must be reflected in Durin VII, from accepting the burden as an outstanding warrior and tactician to succeeding in carrying it as a mighty Dwarf lord with strong leadership and unyielding endurance.

Feel yourself free to share your ideas about it :)
Given story and lore consolidated, the last part about Durin VII in game is still work in progress and open to suggestion. I think the most important abilities won't change so much (they mostly resemble the ones of Durin I), a part of minor details, but for example i'm improving the balance, make his escalation to power slower  ;)
The models design i finally conceived, it seems the best one to condense the old design with something new.


The first (rank 1 to 5), looks more like a young brave warrior of Erebor.
The second (rank 5 to 10) is him after he complete his path with the reconquest  of Moria :)

PS: guys, for now, consindering the enthusiasm and new ideas about Durin VII and dwarves ring system, i deleted the FOR/AGAINST list, i'm gonna create it again when the separate thread will be created, given ALL the ideas about the main core as mostly consolidated.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 29. Jul 2017, 18:14
Garlodur, I would argue on the premise of the dotted lines. Most of that shows when kings ruled, this is true. But if you go by Tolkien's timeline and the lore that is actually written, the Dwarfs are suppose to disappear in the 4th Age, there is simply just not enough time for all those generations as you speak.

This is what we know of Durin VII: He is a descendant of Thorin III (a son is also considered a descendant), Durin's have great longevity as far as Dwarfs go, Durin VII PROCLAIMED himself in the 4th age, not necessarily meaning that he was born in the 4th age, and finally, based on the background of all Durins we know that they were great smiths, warriors, and the Dwarfs considered them each to be reincarnated.

If it is just for the lore standards not EXPLICITLY stating that Durin VII is Thorin III's son--then it wouldn't matter as Durin VII even as a grandson would still fit the timeline. Don't get hung up on the semantics.

Truth is, for Durin VII to exist, reconquer Moria, and then disappear in the 4th age, then the timeline has to be presented the way I presented it. There is just not enough time for all the generations. I like what you stated in your reply about Lord Dain, Thorin II, and Durin VII Garlodur--but the lines could mean how long one rules. So after Thorin III dies, Durin VII could have ruled all those generations until the diminishing of the Dwarfs, as was Tolkien's intent. 
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 29. Jul 2017, 18:28
There is not a clear reference in the lore regarding the specific issue about if he is or is not the son of Thorin III. anyway i think the timeline of dk is reasonable. The very fact, which i strongly agree with dkblue and which makes his implemenatation in game feasible (even if is not as Hannar as i said before), is that  i believe is reasonable to think he's born in the third age, and he's the last king right after Thorin III. if it is the last heir of Durin, is lore-friendly the idea that he's blessed with exceptional long life, such as he could rule in the 4th age also.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Garlodur am 30. Jul 2017, 00:54
Garlodur, I would argue on the premise of the dotted lines. Most of that shows when kings ruled, this is true. But if you go by Tolkien's timeline and the lore that is actually written, the Dwarfs are suppose to disappear in the 4th Age, there is simply just not enough time for all those generations as you speak.

This is what we know of Durin VII: He is a descendant of Thorin III (a son is also considered a descendant), Durin's have great longevity as far as Dwarfs go, Durin VII PROCLAIMED himself in the 4th age, not necessarily meaning that he was born in the 4th age, and finally, based on the background of all Durins we know that they were great smiths, warriors, and the Dwarfs considered them each to be reincarnated.

If it is just for the lore standards not EXPLICITLY stating that Durin VII is Thorin III's son--then it wouldn't matter as Durin VII even as a grandson would still fit the timeline. Don't get hung up on the semantics.

Truth is, for Durin VII to exist, reconquer Moria, and then disappear in the 4th age, then the timeline has to be presented the way I presented it. There is just not enough time for all the generations. I like what you stated in your reply about Lord Dain, Thorin II, and Durin VII Garlodur--but the lines could mean how long one rules. So after Thorin III dies, Durin VII could have ruled all those generations until the diminishing of the Dwarfs, as was Tolkien's intent.

Don't worry dk, I accept your reasoning for the sake of implementing Durin. I might not agree 100% with it but since this mod is only set at the end of the Third Age we have to deal with the inconsistency. Nonetheless it needs to become clear for what reason Durin deserves to be in the mod despite this time inconsistency. It is just something the main presenters of the proposal have to consider and write with utmost delicacy.

Thank you for your invitation Aule. I meant to write it all in one post but I lacked time. Simply put I suggest a sort of challenges system akin to the Necromancer's to symbolise the advent of Durin as an accepted Dwarf Lord. Such a system I feel is required to distinguish him from the other Dwarven Ring heroes and to give him extra attention.Also some sort of risk needs to be included because the Erebor gains another hero. This obviously requires to reconsider Durin's role in the faction that doesn't exceed the increase in power that Thorin II and Lord Dáin get when accepting the Ring. Besides, I want to mention how different this suggestion is from the Imladris Fellowship: they also spawn as  new battalion but they are in accordance to Elrond's role as mass slayer. It is another comparison that should be kept in mind when considering the intricacy and strength of Durin's character.

To the actual concept. I like the idea of a separate expedition to Moria solely for Durin VII to prove himself and to regain his long lost equipment. This will be in the form of an ability activated only once, which will transform the initial design to the legendary outfit. As a requirement to unlock this ability Durin will have to complete three challenges. These will follow his role as an allround supporter, thus taking the shape of one building buff, one hero buff and one unit buff. The basic set-up will mean that DurinVII spawns as a might warrior that is restricted to level 1, who forth needs to accomplish certain tests to prove his spirit, literally. After completing them, he will initiate the journey to Moria and return as a lord, being free to level up. This idea I got from the same Die Vierte Zeitalter mod that has brought you the models of Hannar. I don't quite know yet how to implement such challenges yet, which is why I want to share the idea with all of you. The fifth palantir slot is a passive that explains his unique levelling system and incorporates a form of leadership. Perhaps a nice place to reintroduce Durin's Day to the Dwarves, as a way to symbolise the pending rise to power.

I hope to have sparked some more debate. In the meantime I will reflect on possible challenges and the drawbacks of such a system.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 30. Jul 2017, 02:25
Don't worry dk, I accept your reasoning for the sake of implementing Durin. I might not agree 100% with it but since this mod is only set at the end of the Third Age we have to deal with the inconsistency. Nonetheless it needs to become clear for what reason Durin deserves to be in the mod despite this time inconsistency. It is just something the main presenters of the proposal have to consider and write with utmost delicacy.

I wouldn't speak about inconsistency, but rather Of sparse information which is more correct for Durin VII. In this sense, there is not something that is wrong or right, simply the info are not detailed so we have to deal with what we have from the lore. We have to interpret the low amount of information, reasonably adding some pieces to complete the puzzle. I think our story is a good story in this sense.
Independently of what name we gave him, or if is or isn't son of Thorin III, the main points are:
- the prophecy of his birth was made during BOTFA in 2941 TA, and the ring was destroyed in 3021 TA.These are authentic information from the lore.

Of course is reasonable to place is birthday after BOTFA, and at least 20- 30 years before the defeat of Sauron (otherwise it could be too young during the war of the ring) , being him a ring hero.
That is just what we made in our story, you can't say it is completely right to do it neither you can't say it's wrong, simply as I said the information are quite sparse; and we have made a reasonably timeline to fill this gap.

I would speak also in this case in relative terms, to build up another point in favor of the introduction of Durin figure through Durin VII,comparing the old system and the new one:

some people at the very beginning of this thread complain about the old system of reviving a death character from a statue was not canonic and against lore: agree, there is no mention of that. The return of Durin is present in the lore, but the old form of reviving him was strange and without any base (as I said just multiple times, it sounds a bit like necromancy stuff to resurrect him physically from stone). Now, relatively to this old form, what do you think is the most canonic? The old system or the new one we made?
If you think of what we have done, we have simply chosen a timeline in an interval coming from the lore ( i repeat: there is not a precise date, but the interval is canonic :) ). From the prophecy on (2941) anytime could be good to place the date of his birthday if you think about it. The lore give us a time interval only, without further details: is up to us to choose a proper and reasonable date. So is it more lore-friendly to revive Durin I from a statue with his body and soul or is it more canonic to choose a date for Durin VII birth from a CERTAIN lore-friendly time interval? I think the second one :).
About the theme of reincarnation I won't spend further words, because I just add tons of lore proof about all the possible way it can happen  [ugly]. What do you think about my thoughts Garlodur? I wrote this poem only because I don't want to introduce Durin "for the sake of do it", but I want to discuss very deeply the lore bases and the reason to introduce him ;) . Well of course one of the reason is because we all miss  Durin  xD (at least 2/3 of the voters looking at the poll), but it is not the only one. I want to make the pillars of the concept as solid as possible, and my passion for Durin motivate me a lot in this direction :)
P.s: anytime someone will bring back the issue of the timeline inconsistency and so on and so forth, I will quote this comment  :D :D

As for you are ideas, partially I have just introduce something about the travel to Moria in form of task :). I'm working on it and I think I will share it soon here, since the interest about this thread is increasing a lot and new ideas are rising. As I said the most important abilities won't change a lot a part of details, because are too much iconic and coming from the old skillset of Durin I. But for sure The issue of balance is something we can improve, introducing some task and constrains. Be it clear: I wouldn't complicate too much the concept, otherwise it could be not worth too much extra work for the team, especially in this delicate moment.
Said that, everyone is invited to share his thoughts :) Garlodur I will wait the details of your task system :)


Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 30. Jul 2017, 05:04
Aule, I couldn't have said that better myself. Excellent job man!
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 30. Aug 2017, 00:00
Hello guys i'm back again to this post  :D I posted the last version of Durin VII, the lore and premises are the same as before, but the game implementation should be now more compact and balanced :). You can find it in my signature, and also i will copy it at the end of this message to make things easier  ;)
My willing for the future is to create a unique thread matching our work with the one of Isildurs Fluch, in order to present a new revolutionise dwarves ring system. I hope it will be soon (i'm a bit busy at the moment).


Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 30. Aug 2017, 03:06
It is holistically a very sound and detailed work! It boasts everything that a concept ought to comply with: a clear conceptual definition, lore premises, in-game perspective (as much as it's possible) and fine presentation. Once you manage to unify yours and Isildur's proposal, feel absolutely free to go for the showcasing thread.

A very decent example of conceptual craftsmanship, worthy of your very title, Aulë :)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 30. Aug 2017, 08:20
Great job as always Aule. Enjoyed working with you on this project. Full steam ahead!
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Fancy Lad School am 30. Aug 2017, 11:35
I must say. this is an exceptionally well worked out concept, which fits in with the lore as well as with the gameplay! Truly you must have spent a great deal of time preparing, overthinking and obviously writing that and I respect your dedication for making this mod better!
If only some people could share their opinions about my new Ered Mithrin Overhaul, maybe then we could work magic there too...  xD
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 30. Aug 2017, 17:44
Fancy Lad School, post the link and I'll throw in my 2 cents. Everyone here knows that is what I do best   :)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 1. Sep 2017, 12:44
I love this concept for Durin! It fits Dain well and Durin's mechanics are very interesting.

One question, will Thorin II and Dain Ironfoot still keep the Durin's Forge ability. I am just wondering if it would fit for them and if they should have their own unique ability.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 1. Sep 2017, 13:44
No more Durin's forge, here's the concept crafted by Isildur  ;):

Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Trapper am 1. Sep 2017, 13:58
Proposals that include the history/lore are always very nice to read. Especially, when it is as nicely written as the one of you two. :)

Definetly, a very interesting and fitting lore and good conceptual ideas !
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 1. Sep 2017, 14:14
I have to say thank you very much guys to all of you for your compliments, really :)
He took me some time to organize the work, but finally it becomes good as i wanted :) .
Trapper: is very good to hear the opinion of an internal member too, thank you! ;)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 1. Sep 2017, 15:22
OK, truth be told: I really like this concept of Isildurs Fluch!
Certainly more interesting as the generic ring system, so I'm all for it, eventhough I don't really know the current system. (I'm making my comment on the assumption that the Ring just transforms the faction leader into a slightly different faction leader.)
However, I'd like to point out that Thorin's system sounds like just an improvement, since who the hell cares about Esgaroth, especially in the LG and in 4.5 when only dwarven units get the +15%/+15% buff for having upgrades, whereas Dain Ironfoot actually looks crippling to the dwarves, since higher upgrade costs should massively outweigh fast recruitment. For an semi-elite faction like the dwarves recruiting units faster sounds like planning for failure. ;)

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Fancy Lad School am 1. Sep 2017, 15:33
True, I personally never felt the need for faster unit production because the dwarfes dont have a huge amount of buildings so there is nearly always space for 2 halls of warriors
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Garlodur am 3. Sep 2017, 19:01

Very impressive. The way you presented this proposal so clearly and succinctly is indicative of a great community member, Aulë!

Still I want to leave my own concept that I promised a few weeks back. Only this week I have had to space in my mind to come up with the ideas. I am glad to see you have yourself incorporated the journey to Khazad-Dum as a necessary element in the Ring hero's progression. I cannot compete with the background you have written so I will only build up on it.



I would be very happy to hear your thoughts and criticism on this concept, and I will further elaborate when asked. Feel free to share any adjustments in terms of balance, gameplay, or contradicting concepts.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 4. Sep 2017, 14:12
Hi Garlodur :) I'm glad you finally post your ideas about tasks system  :)
First of all, a thing i can affirm without hesitation: Durin's Day idea is the best i heard so far to bring it back, it matches perfectly with our concept. Absolutely agree with it!!  xD xD I will certanily include it in the concept. I'm sure many in the community would love to see its return as well ;)

Don't be afraid about competition: first of all i'm not so expert in lore (i spent cosiderable time looking for the right information  [ugly]), i've still a lot to discover, and it is always a pleasure to learn something new. And is the right place to do it here in the forum :) I hope you've not understand my last answer as an offense few weeks ago, i was only trying to demostrate you the validity of the ideas behind the concept, i hope i convince you a more ;).

About the core of the concept: i was busy as well looking for a possible way to clearly distinguish the two phases of Durin (pre- and post- travel for Khazad Dum), with some new starting abilites outside the original ones. But sadly i found nothing that satisfy me, all sounded out of place or too much complicated. That’s why i finally i’ve chosen the current system i showed which is pretty compact. I wrote a note about Khazad Dum veterans, i know maybe it is too much, so that we can get rid of the travelling troops , thinking that they stay in khazad-dum to recolonize it  :).
I cannot say i don’t like your ideas because the rune system could be useful at the start, especially the Adoration one. Also they are more fitting than mine when i faced this issue. Anyhow, i’m gonna ask you the same question i made to myself when i got to the point of double form of Durin: do you think is really necessary to further complicate the concept in name of balance? I mean if you think about the old Durin, it was simply summoned as it is, with the full power. I think we improved this point with our new concept, partially avoiding overpowering at the start (also HP and melee statistics are weaker at the start: less damage,less life and no knockback system).
A change of the first level ability is a a good idea and makes sense: before the travel shorter time of surviving after lifebar is spent, longer when he returns from Moria. But without liking it to any task in my opinon.
Specifically about runes (which is an argument that has always intrigued me): are you sure your system would not go in conflict with the current rune-set from spellbook? What is the number of runes you can apply to a single building?
I  want to know your opinion about the issue of trade-off between balance and complexity. For Thorin and Lord Dain you have to wait the answer of Isildur for a detailed explanation  ;)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Garlodur am 5. Sep 2017, 11:07
Thanks, Aulë. No hard feelings. I like the critical attitude that you exhume in this topic, as fit for the initiator of the idea.

I cannot say i don’t like your ideas because the rune system could be useful at the start, especially the Adoration one. Also they are more fitting than mine when i faced this issue. Anyhow, i’m gonna ask you the same question i made to myself when i got to the point of double form of Durin: do you think is really necessary to further complicate the concept in name of balance? I mean if you think about the old Durin, it was simply summoned as it is, with the full power. I think we improved this point with our new concept, partially avoiding overpowering at the start (also HP and melee statistics are weaker at the start: less damage,less life and no knockback system).
A change of the first level ability is a a good idea and makes sense: before the travel shorter time of surviving after lifebar is spent, longer when he returns from Moria. But without liking it to any task in my opinon.

I am very glad you ask. I put my mind to making a simple to understand concept that indeed would not cost too much energy to put into gameplay. Whether it is worthwhile is another question, but I think that largely depends on how much of a difference it makes to also have the first form of Durin implemented in the player's strategy. This depends largely on the effects and strengths of the runes, as these will be his only abilities.
Furthermore I believe that I made a fair balance in trade-off between the two forms, making it such that the second form can always be bought if people do not require any special support from the runes.

Zitat
Specifically about runes (which is an argument that has always intrigued me): are you sure your system would not go in conflict with the current rune-set from spellbook? What is the number of runes you can apply to a single building?

Well, that was part of the struggle in creating this concept. In the first place it's well understood that the runes are unique to the Dwarves, which made me conclude that the mightiest ancestor of all Seven Houses must have had great experience in using them. This is obviously a type of magic that is already implicit in some of his former abilities, yet I felt the need to make his knowledge of rune magic more explicit in gameplay. I tried to work around the effects that the current runes (or the future ones) do not yet cover. Indeed most are in the line of buffing buildings and troops, but  this is expected from the epitome of Dwarven existence  ;) Therefore I believe it fair to have similar runes as proposed to further strengthen the Dwarves, and give Durin a little more unique concept in having a roster of runes to support with.

I hope this clears things up a bit. It is simply my reasoning behind the question you posed regarding the trade-off of balance and complexity. I would like to hear the opinion of others whether they would deem this proposed system worthwhile.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 9. Sep 2017, 12:25
Sorry for the late answer, Garlodur  :)
I think your concept is anyhow a good idea, and i've understand your reasoning on the matter of trade-off/balance. As i just wrote in the previous comment, i've tried to think about a pre-form of Durin during the development of the concept, but without success.
Your concept instead could be a good starting point to discuss the initial form of Durin.

Zitat
Furthermore I believe that I made a fair balance in trade-off between the two forms, making it such that the second form can always be bought if people do not require any special support from the runes.

In fact it is true, in this sense is similar to mine, such that you can undertake the travel whenever you want, only there are some constrains in time and cost.
 As for me, i like very much every element in the mod which can enrich the lore and the play-style of the character, and a rune-system for Durin is a fitting idea.
I'd like to know the thougths of the players and members of the community too, if they deem a more complicated system feasible for the starting form, given that both mine and Garlodur's ideas are meant to improve the balance of the concept.

Besides game-related matters and lore, don't forget that a more complicated system means more work for the team; and it seems not a good moment for extra-work  [ugly].
At least, about this matter, the Garlodur's system doesn't cross graphical (only in a small part) or modelling fields, which are the current most delicate issues for the team as i know.

P.S.: just for curiosity, have we converted some of the "unfaithfuls" who vote against the return of Durin since the beginnig of this thread thanks ot our concept :D :D? JUst asking for joke of course  ;)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 16. Okt 2017, 07:18
I say we take a for and against pole. I for one am for Durin VII (aka Durin) returning to Edain mod. It is time for him to awaken again from his slumber.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Dain@ am 23. Okt 2017, 12:01
I support your proposal AulëTheSmith. :) This probably can be a significant element for dwarves. The only thing that I have a question for the fifth ability of Durin - The ability of mass destruction of enemies, probably not the best idea for gnomes, (this in my opinion). xD
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 23. Okt 2017, 21:03
I support your proposal AulëTheSmith. :) This probably can be a significant element for dwarves. The only thing that I have a question for the fifth ability of Durin - The ability of mass destruction of enemies, probably not the best idea for gnomes, (this in my opinion). xD

Thank you very much for your support Dain@ Lord of the Iron Hills :)
About the ability: if you rember, it is the same of the old version of Durin The Deathless. I personally find it quite cool and fitting. Its reference to the powerful forge of Mahal the Maker, father of the dwarves, smith of the Valar is very evocative :)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: kingsjewel am 22. Nov 2017, 19:14
Sadly I´m competely inexperienced concerning picture-processing programms and therefore not able to upvalue my concept through suitable palantir-pictures for the abbilities. So if anyone who likes the concept and takes delight in this kind of work would help me with that I would be very thankfull and mention his work of course in the concept... ;)

I hope you like my ideas and am open for critique. I know I changed the system radically, but found this necessary to make it more interesting.
Yours sincerely
Isildurs Bane

In Favor:
1. kingsjewel

Sorry for the late answer, just I've noticed this. I hope these will be helpful:
1. Dragon Illness/sickness:
(https://i.imgur.com/wcQFlQS.png)

3. Dwarves first!:
(https://i.imgur.com/RqfScyR.png)

6. Defend our treasure!:
(https://i.imgur.com/6ukgfiA.png)

10. Gleam of the Arkenstone:
(https://i.imgur.com/QGTaXuP.png)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: kingsjewel am 22. Nov 2017, 20:08
And there is my cutted Thorin sounds from BOTFA. It includes a few dragon sickness line. I cutted them for AotR team, but you can also use it, if you want.
https://soundcloud.com/user-472851655/sets/thorin-botfa-sounds
https://mega.nz/#F!xq4GSDZA!ezB4j9zLGllY0Qm0xElxog
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Gandalf7000 am 23. Nov 2017, 17:57
I think one of these images better suit Dragon Sickness ability:

1.

2.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: kingsjewel am 24. Nov 2017, 09:17
(https://i.imgur.com/8mgZ0sE.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/KXZuO0Z.png)

Really better (personally I prefer the first)  :)
And what is your opinion about the 'Dwarves first!'? I hadn't any idea, what picture would fit with it, finally I chose a simple angry Thorin screenshot.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Gandalf7000 am 24. Nov 2017, 12:57
(https://i.imgur.com/8mgZ0sE.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/KXZuO0Z.png)

Really better (personally I prefer the first)  :)
And what is your opinion about the 'Dwarves first!'? I hadn't any idea, what picture would fit with it, finally I chose a simple angry Thorin screenshot.
Dwarves first could remain the same. It's nice but I think that it could/should show thorin with some dwarves so again i have 2 suggestions.

1.

2.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: kingsjewel am 24. Nov 2017, 14:14
And this? Just because he is in his royal armour as in his ring hero form.
(https://i.imgur.com/woOZuil.png)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Gandalf7000 am 25. Nov 2017, 10:37
Yea this could suit as well.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 12. Mär 2018, 11:41
Hello fans of Durin, for whoever is interested in it i updated the concept of Durin with the last version i made some months ago. It comprises a new rune task system developed by Garlodur. Moreover i took myself the liberty to use an image found here on the forum for the palantir of "Heritage of the Ancestor" that i like a lot. It has been crafted by CragLord. I report also the link to his post because it contains some other interesting ideas:

https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31517.msg429679.html#msg429679 (https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31517.msg429679.html#msg429679)

Here below the new version of Durin VII (you can find the old post, now updated, also via my signature):

Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 12. Mär 2018, 12:28
As always, amazing concept, Aulë!
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 12. Mär 2018, 12:36
I have to say, not only am I a huge fan of the idea but rarely have I seen a proposal so well crafted. It is, by some dark magic, both exhaustive in explanations and extremely snackable. Truly, all your laboring bears magnificent fruits. The rune system is reminiscent of the the Hero Submod, something that would fit perfectly into a Ring Hero and the lore has been carefully observed. I suppose this with all my heart, and hope the Edain Team hears you.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 12. Mär 2018, 13:31
As always, amazing concept, Aulë!

Thank you very much Julio!  :)

I have to say, not only am I a huge fan of the idea but rarely have I seen a proposal so well crafted. It is, by some dark magic, both exhaustive in explanations and extremely snackable. Truly, all your laboring bears magnificent fruits. The rune system is reminiscent of the the Hero Submod, something that would fit perfectly into a Ring Hero and the lore has been carefully observed. I suppose this with all my heart, and hope the Edain Team hears you.

I'm happy to hear your opinion too, Necro, really  :) Thank you very much for your praises  xD
The rune system is an idea of Garlodur while dkbluewizard helped me about lore and he invented the fictional story. I especially cared about the concept in game and all of the graphic stuff (pictures, round palantirs). I'm really satisfied about the final result.
As i remember Trapper gave us a positive feedback, so at least i have one member at my side  :D :D But, jokes apart, i hope the basic ideas will not pass unobserved  :)
There are some other important aspects of the whole Dwarves Ring system in my opinion that require a discussion, such as Lord Dain.
And all could be finally matched with Durin VII. But let's face up one issue at time  xD

P.s.: if you want, you can leave your feedback about my concept of Smaug. The link is  easily available on my signature :)
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Mär 2018, 14:08
It is simply amazing, indeed. No other words needed.

Let me just thank you for your true dedication and will to better the Edain Mod for the good, as I think that each of us does strive, at the end of the day, to achieve this goal and to envision multiple alternatives for the smartest kind of changes. Your endeavour is clearly apparent and I'm undoubtedly certain that your coming here, Aulë, was verily a blessing for the English forum: a passionate type of involved users whom we had not seen around our boards for quite a time.

Regarding the concept itself, in the same manner as proposals like Narya or Smaug, you have my authorisation to open an own thread for the specific suggestion, so that it will be much easier for all to gather feedback. I deem it the best solution. Good luck ;)

In case you were in need of something, do not hesitate to ask.
Titel: Re: Durin's fate in the Edain Mod
Beitrag von: AulëTheSmith am 12. Mär 2018, 15:28
It is simply amazing, indeed. No other words needed.

Let me just thank you for your true dedication and will to better the Edain Mod for the good, as I think that each of us does strive, at the end of the day, to achieve this goal and to envision multiple alternatives for the smartest kind of changes. Your endeavour is clearly apparent and I'm undoubtedly certain that your coming here, Aulë, was verily a blessing for the English forum: a passionate type of involved users whom we had not seen around our boards for quite a time.

Regarding the concept itself, in the same manner as proposals like Narya or Smaug, you have my authorisation to open an own thread for the specific suggestion, so that it will be much easier for all to gather feedback. I deem it the best solution. Good luck ;)

In case you were in need of something, do not hesitate to ask.

And i thank you gentle Walküre for your kind words  :). Remember that if it wasn't for you, showing me the way inviting me here on MU almost one year ago , i'd never craft any of these ideas :) Also you helped me in different occasions,so again i thank you very much :)
Yeah i want definely to open a new thread, it's time for Durin VII to have his own spot.
In a secondary moment i'll approach the matter of Dain himself too.
I'll ask you for everything in case of need  :)