I just tested a funny fight, Mollock on lvl 1 was defeated by neutral cave troll.I just tested this myself and I confirm, both started attacking at appoximately the same time and whil I did win the trol brought Mollok down to a silver of an hp (empty bar with 1 hit left before KO)
Is this ok? xD
- Mordor Orcs, Minas Morgul Orcs and Dol Guldur Orcs:Do you think that one or two of this buffs was to much?
* Health and damage increased by 10%
* Recruitment speed increased by 10%
* Grant 50% more experience to the barracks upon recruitment
On a last note: If I recall correctly, the rushing tactic early on is the kind of playstyle that the ET wanted to avoid, no? The base is supposed to be a more attractive target, later in the game, was written in one of their articles. Not to mention that the tactic is very risky. Only 1 sentry tower (150) can already put quite a dent in your 2 starting squads were you to rush the Mordor Barracks.
- Mordor Orcs, Minas Morgul Orcs and Dol Guldur Orcs:
* Health and damage increased by 10%
* Recruitment speed increased by 10%
* Grant 50% more experience to the barracks upon recruitment
Do you think that one or two of this buffs was to much?
I'd go for 700 rather. 800-900 makes them closer to Ents. I doubt that's needed. They are already quite an investment. I do agree that they are a bit too vulnerable to crush revenge damage done by pikes, because of their weird method of trampling.I would agree with you on the price, but remember that the price of Trolls can be reduced by Slaughter Houses, while the price of Ents can't change as far as I'm aware. I would also like to see people use Slaughter Houses more often.
The trample is a matter of realism - I think it would look very strange if you could actually box a troll in with swordsmen and he couldn't walk over them to get out.I have to agree on that. Also, this is something that seperates someone with good from someone with bad troll-micro: The bad one will just charge into the enemy troops and losing 30-100% of the trolls' HP before standing still and attacking. The one's with good micro will just charge to the enemy, hit "S" before trampling pikes and use their knockdown attacks which are both way stronger and safer than trampling foes. (This actually makes them sort of viable against pikes because especially trolls with a mace have quite a huge AOE -and knocked-down pikes can't attack!)
About the hero damage, I think that it is in a good spot right now. Depending on which hero you face, Trolls can badly damage them, which is only shared by a few other unique units. A troll can, for example, stomp a level 1 Beregond quite hard. A 600 cost unit smashing a 1000 cost hero to near death is really cost effective, even more so since Beregond has a spear as default weapon, which is naturally effective against trolls.Fair enough. But all Beregond needs to do is be near 1 building, and I don't think think the battle will be that close.
Mordor has no unique units like this, all they got is their free orcs.Instead Mordor has the biggest variety of units in the game. From what I've read in this thread, the problem might not be that free orcs are too strong on their own, but that they are good enough. Mordor should be making good use of this variety, not just use only one tool and put some heroes on top. If nerfing free orcs encourages Mordor players to use archers, pikes and trolls instead of just rushing for Nazgul and Gothmog, I'm all for it, even if it means other units have to be tweaked as well.
Both replays also demonstrate something that I heavily disagree with in the latest patch, the price increase of Théoden to 800. It slows down rohan extremely badly in the early game, in the older versions you could deal even heavier blows against Mordor. I really think his cost should be returned to 600.This is the Mordor balancethreat, not the Rohan.
Finally, we talked and agreed that we think the Mouth of Sauron is too expensive, and should have a price reduction to 1800.The Mouth looks weak, but his spells are very strong. For example his spell on Level 6 can kill easy much units, and his other spells can weaken very strong cavallery and archers and heroes.
Please don't use the replaythreat, if you wan't to show balance. You can put your replay in this threat. The replaythreat is just for watching and comment replays.You can post replays in the replay thread and then refer to them during balance discussions, so this is perfectly in order. However, balance should not be discussed in the replay thread itself, because it would get clogged up quickly and people would have to sift through the balance discussions to find the replays.
Regarding trolls, we could add a slow-down to their trample like cavalry has, so they don't trample over too many pikes at once. Other monsters don't have this slow-down because it doesn't make sense for them (Mumakil and Ents wouldn't slow down by walking over infantry), but for trolls it could be useful to have. By the way, since people mostly talk about troll health, would you say their damage is decent at the moment?But than their is the problem, if you want that your troll retreat he will pinning in the army of the enemy and die.
Damage from Building Arrows is to muchI think they should become a armourbuff from 25% against Building Arrows, so they can be stronger against Towers.
Damage from Heroes is to muchI think this is a big problem for trolls: They die very fast against heroes. A hero should stand out from his spells, not with his normal strength.
Finally, I believe the Fire Arrows buff is far too strong in its current form. A Mordor player can make all of their towers, make a battle tower, get the fire arrows, and then destroy the tower, essentially only paying 250 resources to have Fire Arrows on every on of their sentry towers. If we look at other factions: Isengard must pay 400 per tower, Dwarves need a 1500 resource upgrade, Lorien need a 1500(or maybe 2000, can't remember) resource upgrade. How is it fair that Mordor pays such a low amount to get upgraded defensive towers? I personally think that Influence of Sauron on a battle tower should only UNLOCK the upgrade, which should then have to be purchased on each tower for 250-300 resources per tower.I agree more or less. I think that it is too easy to get right now, because of its extremely low price. But my main problem is, like you said, how people just sell the tower right after they use Influence of Sauron. I'm pretty sure that no other building under the Influence of Sauron keeps their upgrade if you demolish it, but I'd have to test that. So my proposal would be to keep it as it is now, but make the player need to keep the Tower for the Sentry Towers to keep their fire arrow upgrade. This would make the player have one build plot occupied by the tower, slightly hindering them.
I Also agree that the cooldown on Mordor spells could be a bit higher by default, or the bonus granted by Tribute Camps could perhaps be lowered a bit.I don't really like this idea. This is basically like weakening a faction for something that should be a strength -e.g. Rohan also doesn't have cheaper default upgrades, just because they have no upgrade-discount. So slower spell recharge as a "punishment" for a specific (kind of) discount just seems wrong. Also, Mordor certainly doesn't get this for free, because the spell-recharge-bonus is actually the only discount in the entire game which is also weaker per structure if you only build only a few of them (all other economic structures start with 0 / 10 discount, the tribute post with 0 / 5, which makes them only viable when completely focussing on this, therefore having higher siege costs (and technically really expensive trolls, what of course nobody notices because they aren't built in general :P)).
I don't understand what you mean, we were never saying trolls needed to be nerfed, we were saying they needed to be buffed.Wait, what? I was referring to LoM's post where he was talking about that there would some compensation needed for some of our ideas for buffing trolls (as this is indeed a buff to one of Mordor's possible playstyles). And I personally think that for this buff in particular, no rebalancing nerf is needed (maybe there is in general because of Mordor's strengths, but not for a possible troll buff). Is it clearer now?
Additionally, another thing that I think is really unfair is that Sauron, Annatar form cannot be attacked at all. It is one thing to gain temporary invincibility, or a map wide truce via Armistice, but he can literally walk up to a whole army of your men and stand there right now. Its ridiculous! I think that by default you should be able to attack him, and he should have an ability to make him invincible for a short time, so people can't just sit him in the middle of your army and spy on you.I don't think the team will change it, it's one of the key features of Sauron, they've already optimized it with the "can't turn into Annatar in front of enemies". Instead I think what could be suggested is that the charisma should be stronger with a smaller armor debuff and should also affect buildings. Also for a player using Gorthaur as a scout would be quire disadvantageous considering all the power that they are wasting.
I'd like to mention that while it is true that you only have to buy him once, leveling him up isn't exactly free. While regular heroes level up by simply being on the battefield, Sauron takes time (LV5 horde, 20 hordes) and resources (Mouth of Sauron 2000, 4 trolls, Great Siegework level 3).Agreed, but most of the objects you need to buy are objects which you will buy anyways, while in Bfme2 and Rotwk you need to give up a lot of money at once. It's not like you buy the Mouth of Sauron or the Nazgul JUST to level up Sauron. They are also very useful heroes themselves. Yes, it does take a while to level him, but that's a counter to the fact that he can't die and is very useful for his price.
In my opinion Sauron with the ring is not the problem,Yes... In the most games, they/we play without the ring.
but the constant spamming of orcs, I do understand why its free and everything but at least increase the production time, its nonstop attacking, and on top of that free, so they can use all their money on seige weapons.
Disclaimer: By no means I want to start over the debate about Mordor. :D
Haman is right, orcs are not that strong. What is really strong at the moment is Nazguls, Cirith Ungol orcs and the spellbook. But most of all, Nazguls. They are incredibly good at mass killing on horseback because they hardly decelerate when trampling and their debuff is quite ridiculous.
OK, I have just played a 3v3 against 3 Angmars, and I can say with utter surety that Mordor doesn't have a shadow of a chance against Angmar.- Agree. Angmar is just the waaay better evil folk. I think its more the diversity of Angmar than the nerf of Mordor. Angmar is Mordor (Vassals) + Gondor (Carn Dum) +special things like Wolves, witchers. Hero wise they are also stronger than Mordor.
Just to note for those of you that are interested, the 3v3 game I was talking about has been uploaded to my YouTube channel, feel free to check it out and give your thoughts :)
I am at least on an equal level with these 2, just because theres 4 highly skilled players in the match does not mean that my argumements are invalid.
First off, that is nitpicking. What I said in game in the middle of the match, while trying to commentate, has no relevance to actual data.
I did indeed face Angmar by myself several times while Haman was tied up separately with another player, and I faced 1 alone, especially drawing towards the end.
Again, if you watch the video and actually listen to what I say, I tell HAMAN to take the top area because I want to take the MIDDLE area, for my outposts crowd control capabilities, which is why it isn't there. I say several times in the video for Haman to get his exile camp up, but the timing never happened for either of us.
Here is my original post on this, in entirety:
Notice I say twice, Mordor doesn't stand a chance against Angmar. I am not picking apart your argument, you are attempting to do so to mine. I believe that the Mordor nerfs are going to really hurt their early game against rush factions in general, like Rohan, Isengard and Ered Luin Dwarves, but it is most prevalent in Angmar, which is why I mentioned them.
I'd still have to think of ways Mordor can be buffed to counter this, without making them as strong as some previous patches.Don't know if this is only related to the Wights. If Yes, u can counter them with Mordor. Firearrows, Cirith Ungol Bow Men, Nazugls. If No: Pls people stop comparing Angmar only to Mordor and try to change Mordor, instead of Angmar.
Mordor especially should be tested in 1v1 games against older factions like Gondor before coming to early conclusions
None of them got as many nerfs as Mordor.- Yes, Isengard :P
When I said that, I ment in the transition from 4.2.1 to 4.3/4.3.1.ZitatNone of them got as many nerfs as Mordor.- Yes, Isengard :P
Those were not the only changes. Nazgul trample damage and deceleration has been nerfed drastically (A good change, but still hinder Mordor all the same), Nazgul also cost more (another good change in my opinion), Black Uruks can't receive a discount anymore (a logical change), and Mordor lost Barricade (not a great change in my opinion, but I plan on talking about that later). That is a lot of nerfs. Also remember that other factions were buffed or completely reworked with the patches. None of them got as many nerfs as Mordor.
I do think this is more Mordor's problem then Angmar's problem. Other Factions have a much better chance at killing Wights because of their outright stronger infantry. Angmar just got a lot of nerfs that balanced them out with most of the other factions, or at least made it a lot closer. More testing needs to be done, but I have the feeling this has more to do with Mordor than Angmar.
Mordor can counter them easy with the Nazgul batallion, with Mollok, with morgulhorseman, with uruk archers or you ride with a Nazgul to them and kill them in close combat. Or you use a armored troll, which is very good against 1-2 batallions of archers.
The problem with the big trample damage from heroes was, that you hadn't need any normal cavallery against archer and swordsman.
All of the Units you just listed are incredibly easily countered by 2 or 3 groups of Carn Dum PikesA Nazgûl on a horse too, so I don't know why do you think that it would be better as the units I said^^
I kind of agree. I feel that ET sometimes listens ''too'' well to community feedback and tends to overnerf things, in my opinion xD.
Oh yeah sorry. I forgot that I wasn't arguing about Angmar. Yes, you are right, those units are better at killing Archers. But still Just because those units can, I don't think that Nazgul should be weak at trampling. The nerf just seems like too much to me.ZitatAll of the Units you just listed are incredibly easily countered by 2 or 3 groups of Carn Dum PikesA Nazgûl on a horse too, so I don't know why do you think that it would be better as the units I said^^
[...] and 2) make these suggestion forums standoffish for people who aren't so regular as the same four players who constantly respond here and seem to all be "Balance Testers"That certainly isn't the intention of anyone here, you are very welcome to post about any issues you might have. It's great to have you :)
I have had plenty of experience playing edain, actually. This is the kind of response and cocky arrogance that 1) made me stop watching your videos, and 2) make these suggestion forums standoffish for people who aren't so regular as the same four players who constantly respond here and seem to all be "Balance Testers".
From what i read next update make solid improvment to defensive part of game giving all factions something that give them chance to break enemy aggresion when they are sieged . Mordor get Banner that speed up recruitment of nearby buildings which i think with current Mordor overpowered uncontrolled orc spam make game against Mordor player even worse . Incresing massively lag making game for everybody annoying and uncomfortable . I just want to know how increasing build speed can make Mordor faction more balanced {?}I would be glad for answer and deeper explanation if possible .
Banner like all buildings in defensive buildplot will be cheap so any player proably go from start building atleast one even without caring for economy becouse of Gorbag . How Edain Team balance this one ? Slowing down orcs recruit speed and decreasing orc damage helps but wil this be enough ? Additionaly i could recommend making Morgul and Dol Guldor Orcs cost money they shouldnt be free at least cost 250 per horde . I will be honest with u making regular orcs cost at least 50 - 100 helps preventing player from super spam of orcs . Mordor in bfme 1 just had diffrent balance that sadly im not sure can work in edain 4 ); orcs there were just much weaker
I really don't think that eco upgrades for Mordor are "totally free"Sparta, ofc they are not totally free but as the stuff you need for Sauron level 3 is the strength of your army that doesn’t really count for me. You always want to get CU units and you always want to get a Nazgul anyways. And when you can get on top of that the eco upgrades that is too strong for me.
Weaken the buff of the overseers (not too much but just a little bit so that you can’t form an early battering ram off orcs with some trolls and crush certain factions).Which factions do you have in mind here?
Which factions do you have in mind here?
The overseer spell only summons one overseer. The cooldown of the spell get's reduced by about a third and you only need 5 overseers for a Sauron level instead 10.This change also sounds good, it is worth testing out for sure imo.