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[en] Edain Mod => [Edain] Suggestions => [Edain] Imladris Suggestions => Thema gestartet von: Ealendril der Dunkle am 26. Okt 2015, 13:45

Titel: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Ealendril der Dunkle am 26. Okt 2015, 13:45
The big question: What happens to the old Bilbo, after he is no longer available at dwarven realm Erebor? We are open to suggestions, forth with your ideas! ;)
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Walküre am 26. Okt 2015, 14:02
Very evocative and effective title, I would say  ;)

Honestly, I wouldn't personally push myself too far with detailed or definitive suggestions, for now.
I will just say that I would really like to see the Old and well-experienced Bilbo in Rivendell, which is, I think, a more suitable context and environment to live in during his retirement from the boundaries of the World, reflecting on all his dense and dynamic Life and completing his parts of his Book, before the final and ineluctable Journey to the West.

As it exactly happens in the lore, where we only see him again (after the departure of the Fellowship from Rivendell) during the journey through the Shire of the last High Elves headed to the Grey Havens, in ROTK.

Probably, a role as a not playable and supporting hero in the Citadel of Imladris would fit him very well, in my opinion  :)
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: hoho96 am 26. Okt 2015, 14:47
My though from the earlier thread of Dwarven scout
Zitat
I think he might be used for Imladris this way: you get him from the Hobbit farm (or somewhere else) he is the usual Bilbo. However, he "studies" all the scripts and books of Imladris, so he will be able (maybe make him able to enter library) to provide some spellbook recharge bonus, or a passive exp multiplier for nearby/all heroes.
Basically something related to him, after he finally settled in Imladris, studying all the knowledge and history that is stored there.
Also
Zitat
Come to think about it, the hero exp thing might conflict with Elrond's special power of giving advice  and insight to heroes :/

SO
As I see it there are several options:
_If Bilbo is to go with the "wisdom" and "studies" thing, Elron will have to change some of his abilities.
_Another option is for Bilbo to specialize his support to heroes, and Elron be specialized with a sort of global effects covering all units (ingame nearby units) with minimized or no effect on heroes.

The thing is when Elrond gave his advice and wisdom, he usually though on a more global scale than specifically about certain heroes. Like the fate of Middle Earth as a whole, or what can each race do regarding the war to come,...etc
Bilbo kept it more simple, more personal. After all he's just an honest Hobbit.

_Option three is for Bilbo to be like an upgrade to the Library (like Denethor, or a slave system and he would just wonder around in the castle) where he may enhance certain upgrades one at a time (an active, or a toggled ability).

I don't really wanna see Bilbo in the Hobbit farm as a minor fun hero. Of course his role in WOTR was minor, but he did spend that whole time in Imladris, and probably know about the Elves more than they know about themselves  [ugly]
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: kai69 am 26. Okt 2015, 20:01
I think it suits him to be in Rivendell, but I dont really know where to place him. If I where to choose between an elf scout and Bilbo as scout, I would prefer the elf, as it fits more to send out an experienced elf than Bilbo who is living peacefully his last days. So I dont really see where to put Bilbo. If there is no other scout hero Bilbo can take that place, but if not I really cannot tell. In the worst scenario add him as a decorative character within the fortress.
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: WarOfTheRingVeteran am 26. Okt 2015, 20:43
As I said some time earlier, I'd like to have Bilbo similar to Erestor; a support hero that cannot fight (since he gave the Sting to Frodo, and he's old), and in my opinion it suits Imladris to have more ways of strengthening itself with avoiding any physical conflict (their power points rising concept, for example).

It would be stupid to have two heroes with the same role, eh? Yeah... but it wouldn't be exactly the same according to my suggestion: Let's kick Erestor outta game!!! Hehe, no. It ain't that simple :)

So; I thought Bilbo's new supporting abilities could be designed to improve buildings, upgrades and command points, while Erestor's would be created for units, power points and resources.

Keep in mind, this suggestion could be improved, I know it's not very original :)
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 26. Okt 2015, 21:26
i realy can not see old bilbo fighting he should be some kind of an upgrade for imladris
he should appear somwhere in the citadel
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Telperion am 27. Okt 2015, 10:00
Maybe as an upgrade for hobbit farm, something like Denethor ? When you recruit Bilbo the farm stop generate ressource but it gains some abilities :
- Protect the Shire :  call a couple of shirrifs to defend the farm.
- Troll's treasure : same as young Bilbo.
- Unforgettable birthday party : heal units near the farm.
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 27. Okt 2015, 11:13
i dont think imladris farms need protection from hobbits  xD
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Telperion am 27. Okt 2015, 11:22
I know :D but i speak about HOBBIT farm that you can build on settlement : http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,25225.0.html
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: DrHouse93 am 27. Okt 2015, 11:44
This is my idea about Bilbo. We all know Bilbo moved to live to Rivendell where he spent his last days "on vacation". As said on Tolkien Gateway:
Zitat
He lived a very pleasant life of retirement in Rivendell: eating, sleeping, writing poetry, and working on his memoir, There and Back Again and wrote a book called Translations from the Elvish.

So here's a concept which I think fits for the old Bilbo. First of all, he shouldn't be able to fight in close range, since he gave Sting to Frodo, but can still throw rocks. Concerning his abilities, this is what I came up with:

- Master Burglar: Even if old, Bilbo is still an experienced honest burglar. Activating this ability close to an enemy economy building will make Bilbo steal a small amount of resource from it, then quickly make him head to the closest allied base, where he can deliver the bounty. If he's killed during the trip, a tresure chest with the amount of resource stolen will spawn at the place of death. Activating this ability anywhere else on the map will make him stay invisible as long as he stands immobile

This is a mix between the Hobbits' capabilities to conceal themselves and sneak easily with Bilbo's thievery's skills. However, since not having the One Ring, and being old, this ability has two drawbacks: The enemy will be informed of the theft, and the cooldown period of the ability is very long. This should ensure Bilbo is not used too often as a cheap version of Dunlendings or Goblin Pillagers

- Teaching of the Halflings: Hobbits love nothing else than things that grow. For a short period of time, Bilbo teaches the secrets of the land to the selected Hobbit farm, making it produce 30% more resources, but for the duration of the skill he can't move from there nor can he use his skills (except for Master Burglar). If the farm is destroyed before the effect of this skill wears off, Bilbo can be used normally again

- Experienced traveler: In his long life, Bilbo has lived lot of adventures. His memories and experiences influence other heroes. For a short period of time, the selected hero will deal 30% more damage and gain experience faster

- Weaknesses of monsters: Thanks to both his past experience, as well as his studies, Bilbo has learnt anything related to the various monstrosities of Middle-Earth. For a short period of time, the selected allied hero will deal 30% more damage against monsters and gain experience faster

- Need for the One Ring: Even if a brave Hobbit with a pure heart, Bilbo sometimes feels the need to recover the One Ring. If this hasn't been found yet, this ability will temporary show the position of Gollum if he's on a large radius from Bilbo. However, Bilbo's other abilities will be locked for a while. While the effect is activated, Bilbo will move fast, but he loses 50% of his armor but gain double damage, and will attack ANYONE standing on his path to the Ring (since not having a real weapon, he can attack using Gollum's animations)
If the Ring has been already given to a Ringhero, this ability can only be activated if Bilbo is close to it. Activating the ability in this case will make Bilbo viciously attack the Ringhero with triple damage and will also instantly deactivate any effect he has casted on allied buildings/heroes and will scare nearby units and heroes, thus making them lose 15% attack and damage. If he's killed during the effect, he can't be revived for atleast 15 minutes. Otherwise, if he's able to resist and to survive, his abilities will be locked for a while and Bilbo will have 30% less damage and armor since he's scared for what he did

I think this represents Bilbo's personality quite well while he lives on Rivendell: mainly a support figure for Imladris' allies, but with the shadows of the past sometimes resurfacing on the heart of the brave Hobbit. What do you think about it?^^
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 27. Okt 2015, 13:01
i think your ideas are amazing
1+
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 27. Okt 2015, 13:07
I don't like the idea of Bilbo fighting at all. I also think your last ability "need for the one ring" doesn't fit into Rivendell theme for Rivendell is the last faction that would seek for the ring.
Your other ideas are very interesting though, especially "teaching of the halflings", "exeprience travellers" and "weaknesses of monsters".
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Ealendril der Dunkle am 27. Okt 2015, 13:34
Remember: Rivendell will have the hobbit farm on the settlements. Maybe there is some way to implement the old Bilbo? Discusse it.

@DrHouse: Some interesting ideas out there. ;)
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: DrHouse93 am 27. Okt 2015, 13:58
Zitat von: Adrigabbro am 27. Okt 2015, 13:07
I don't like the idea of Bilbo fighting at all. I also think your last ability "need for the one ring" doesn't fit into Rivendell theme for Rivendell is the last faction that would seek for the ring.
Your other ideas are very interesting though, especially "teaching of the halflings", "exeprience travellers" and "weaknesses of monsters".
That's the point. RIVENDELL is not interested at all on seeking the Ring. That's not the same for Bilbo. He kept it for 60 years, and even when he left it to Frodo, he was very reluctant and unwilling (he also tried to steal it from him later on and asked Frodo what happened to it on his last journey to the Grey Havens). All this facts clearly state that the Ring did have some negative effects on Bilbo (which openly manifest when he's close to it. Maybe the first part of "Need of the One Ring" may be deleted, and just the Ringhero part may be left^^). Also, making him unable to fight at all would make abilities like "Master Burglar" or "Teaching of the Halflings" too risky to me, because if he's intercepted by weak enemy forces he has no choice than escaping, or using his "Master Burglar" skill to hide, but therefore wasting it. Making him able to throw rocks would give him a very small defense capability (enough to survive few and weak units) but not enough to become a mass slayer (just remember the throw rock deals very little damage^^).  Either way, thank you all for your feedback^^
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 27. Okt 2015, 14:09
well he should not be a scout i know that maybe he can be a supportive hero and only shear his knowledge of monsters and places in meddle earth and give to a hero som bust of attack on certain monsters like trolls and make him run faster and lvl up a unique way i dont know maybe with the farms if you build farms he will lvl up
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: NetoD20 am 27. Okt 2015, 14:17
This is what I wrote on Old Bilbo back in the Erebor Scout thread:

Zitat von: NetoD20 am 17. Okt 2015, 02:15
I love that you guys want to put old Bilbo in a scholar position/theme in my favourite faction, Imladris, but I think he should not have spellbook related powers. Even as a scholar, writer, and poet, Bilbo doesn't have any power or knowledge about elven magic, so I think he should stay away from the spellbook. Leave the spellbook for the sages and mages of Imladris.

I suggest instead that he could be a building feature instead of a hero, by buying an upgrade you could get Bilbo wandering inside Imladris castle or around the Library building (or whatever building he would be attached to) and by selecting him or the part of the building he ought to occupy you would have access to his power(s). I suggest for those to be primary minor Hero Supporter abilities with the theme of singing or reciting poetry or Ian Holm's voice saying something about the history of Middle-Earth. I remember reading in Fellowship that Bilbo often presented his literary works in Elrond's Hall of Fire to elves' delight. To be sure, Bilbo's abilities should be minor.

I really detest the idea of Old Bilbo fighting, even from a distant, or venturing outside the gates' of Imladris' castle, for by the time he arrived at Rivendell after forsaking the ring, his adventures were over. As I mentioned above I would have him as an immobile building feature to the Library, by "immobile" I mean only to say that the player wouldn't be able to control his walking, but the character would still stroll about the gardens of Rivendell of his own accord, and would be still be selectable in order to access his abilities.

Thus, being honest, I don't really like @DrHouse93's ideas of the Master Burglar or Experienced Traveler abilities. I agree with @Adrigabbro that Need for the One Ring doesn't really fit Imladris. I also don't like the idea of Old Bilbo sharing or stepping on the roles of Elrond and/or Erestor, that being similar to @hoho96's first option of focusing Old Bilbo on "wisdom" and "studies". Both Teaching of the Halflings and Weaknesses of Monsters are very similar to two of Erestor's abilities in 3.8.1, one in which he gave military council (and thus bonus) against a specifically selected enemy unit and another in which he gave experience to Imladris' farms. I don't think it is fitting for him to have a ability like Weaknesses of Monsters because, for all his adventures, what knowledge about monsters and other enemies could Bilbo provide to the long lived Noldor of Imladris that they do not already have?

Particularly I belive that Old Bilbo's abilities should focus, thematically speaking, not in his studies or wisdom, but in his creations' of literature and poetry. Mind that I'm not saying that Bilbo ins't studious or wise, just that his knowledge seems to me to pale in comparison of the elven scholars' own. I think a focus on his creative side, rather than studious, would do a great deal to make him unique in a faction devoted to knowledge and study.

I think he should be a hero/building feature with abilities toward hero and/or unit support thematically based in his songs, poems, and oration, as is mentioned in Fellowship (and I have already mentioned above) that he presented this pieces in Elrond's Hall of Fire to the elves' delight.

If going in this direction with Old Bilbo, I also think he should have a minor role in Imladris. That he shouldn't have more than three abilities, given that Imladris already has other hero and unit supporters, even though these are thematically different to Bilbo in their abilities.

I am thinking about abilities for Old Bilbo based on the suggestions and concept I made, but I do not wish to convey mechanics that I did not yet thought entirely through. In this case I will only share a general idea:

*Chronicle of Middle-Earth: Bilbo recalls an old story of Middle-Earth and makes it into a poem, it either warns against defeat or elevates the spirit of elves for a new victory. This could positively affect heroes in an area or all the common units inside the castle defending it.

*Adventurous Tale [there can definitely be a better name]: Bilbo narrates one of his old adventures to the humour of the elves, and fills Elrond's halls with joy and laughter.

*Praise to Elbereth Gilthoniel (I think Bilbo really made a song to Varda in Fellowship, but I'm not certain): Bilbo sings a praise to the stars of Elbereth, this soothes the elves in the castle and slowly cures them (by just a bit).
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: DrHouse93 am 27. Okt 2015, 14:20
Quoting myself xD:
Zitat von: DrHouse93 am 27. Okt 2015, 11:44
I think this represents Bilbo's personality quite well while he lives on Rivendell: mainly a support figure for Imladris' allies, but with the shadows of the past sometimes resurfacing on the heart of the brave Hobbit. What do you think about it?^^
Don't misunderstand me, I never intended him as a scout (I'm agree on you on that). Gildor is more than fit for that role. I imagined Bilbo as mainly a hero supporter with some thievery and Ring-greed skills xD (which would make him also slightly useful on the battlefield, and not having him permanently wander in the fortress. After all, he has Tuc blood, and he likes adventures, being also the reason why he left the Shire at the end ;))
Again, he shouldn't have too much damage and armor, because of course he's not a warrior and also he's old. But I also think that making him stay permanently in the fortress and completely uncapable of atleast defend himself wouldn't represent his personality at its most^^
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 27. Okt 2015, 14:29
i also dont like to see bilbo permanently in the fortress 
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: kai69 am 27. Okt 2015, 14:51
Maybe making him a summon from the farm, you use it and Bilbo with some elf warriors appear to defend the farm from enemies?
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: DrHouse93 am 27. Okt 2015, 15:38
@Neto, even if I don't like Bilbo staying in the fortress permanently, I must say I always imagined him as he was when he left the Shire, and I forgot that indeed, as soon as he reaches Rivendell, his adventures are over. And I also agree on giving him a minor role.
Anyway, I'm not convinced by your idea, simply because I think this way Bilbo has a too small minor role. So, what about a mix of our ideas?

So Bilbo will slowly wander inside the Imladris base leaning on a staff (as seen in the Fellowship of The Ring. He could then use Gandalf the Black's animations). The player can't control his movement nor he can make him attack, but he can select him and use his abilities:

- Honorable Guest: Elves of Imladris and Dunedain as well love the presence of Bilbo. If fighting in a small radius close to him, they'll receive +15% damage and armor to protect the old Hobbit. Bilbo stops wandering if there are nearby enemies (this is also pretty limited, since Bilbo can't abandon the fortress, and anyway the radius is very small)

- Teaching of the Halflings (I really love this one. I think this is a modified and maybe more-fitted version): Hobbits love nothing more than things that grow. He teaches Erestor the Halflings' secrets of farming. Erestor is now able to supervise an Hobbit's farm, thus enhancing its production by 30%

- Experienced Traveler: Same as above (remember that Elrond just gives experience, while this is a bonus effect, which wears off after a while. Also, the selected hero must be close inside the fortress, since as I said Bilbo can't leave it)

- Praise to Elbereth Gilthoniel (I like this one, too): Bilbo sings a praise to the stars of Elbereth. This soothes the elves in the castle and slowly cures them

- Need of The One Ring: I have no ideas on how to implement it now with this new system. However, I insist on this one, because as I said, I know it doesn't fit for Rivendell to not seek the Ring, but this doesn't apply to Bilbo, since he's obvious he still has a small need of it, which openly manifest when he's close to it. So I will work on it^^
(http://www.scaryforkids.com/pics/screaming-face.jpg)
Forgot this scene?
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 27. Okt 2015, 16:27
NOOOT THAT SCENEEEE!!!!! [ugly] xD
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Aragorn_Frodo am 27. Okt 2015, 20:26
At this time I believe that there is no way to put old Bilbo in the game that works well and is true to Bilbo.  I think the reason for that is that old Bilbo doesn't fit in with the game.  Old Bilbo does not do anything to help the War of the Ring efforts at all, and there is not a unique system that I have seen that would realistically (in middle-earth standards) benefit any faction according to his strengths.  So I think the best idea is to take him out of the game, until a good way to put him to use evolves, and at the moment settle for young Bilbo, who has a place in this game.
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: NetoD20 am 27. Okt 2015, 21:30
I quite like the way you mixed our ideas @DrHouse93, I'm glad you liked my Praise to Elbereth idea. Honorable Guest is very good too :)
I don't know a good way to implement the Need for the One Ring ability, but it would do no harm to include it, if we get a good mechanic for it.

@Aragorn_Frodo, I kind of had that line of thinking, and agree partially to it. But I think it's too extreme to rule him out of the game, I think he can still be of very good use to Imladris' war effort as a sort of bard/minstrel/scholar/poet bound to the fortress. It would fittingly convey his life during the War of the Ring, and it would still be useful ingame.
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Telperion am 30. Okt 2015, 21:25
I think he should have a minor role for Imladris, with abilities for hobbit farm .
He may be recrutable in hobbit farm like, Denethor for Gondor and gain level for each hobbit farms with this abilities:
- Protect the Shire :  call a couple of shirrifs to defend the farm for a short time.
- Halflings farming : increase farm production by 20%
- Unforgettable birthday party : heal units near the farm
- Dunedains friend : call permanently some dunedain ranger to protect the farm
I don't know if its possible but he should have an ability with a long cooldown to travel between the farms to protect them all. When he reachs a certain level he can travel a last time to the fortress where he can use his abilities on every farms.


Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: KingdomofErebor am 4. Nov 2015, 17:01
Zitat von: Ealendril am 27. Okt 2015, 13:34
Remember: Rivendell will have the hobbit farm on the settlements. Maybe there is some way to implement the old Bilbo? Discusse it.

@DrHouse: Some interesting ideas out there. ;)

Wow ok this has given me a few ides, so I'm thinking old Mr Baggins is recrutable from the hobbit farm? if not maybe he could be but I have a few ideas about his Abilities

I agree that old Bilbo is waaaaay past fighting age so he should be a wise old hobbit who looks after the youngsters and teaches them about the world. This would give him a more support unit style that works for a 111 year old hobbit!

Level 1: Scholar of the Shire: Bilbo loves to study old books and maps, learning all that there is to know about middle earth, Bilbo shares his knowledge with friendly units giving them experience (say half a level of experience depending on his current level)

Level 3: It was one small chest...: Bilbo Shares his treasures from his adventure with his friends (Spawns 1 chest perhaps using the design from the films) this gives the player 1000 resources

Level 5: The road goes ever on and on: Bilbo sets out on a new journey happily singing away , for a short time bilbo moves 50% faster and gains 30% armour. Maybe use the audio from the films for bilbo's singing ?

Level 7: A long expected party: much like Thranduils feast ability, Bilbo celebrates his 111th birthday, party tents and possibly the banner from the films "Happy Birthday Bilbo Baggins" are put up and hobbits dance and sing, near by units are healed as they share food and drink

Level 10: And what about Very old Friends? Gandalf the Grey is called to bilbo's side for a short time and uses his fireworks to attack nearby enemies. I don't know if this is possible but it would be so cool to have the line "Gandalf my old friend, this will be a night to remember" heard some how !

Hope you like my idea :)

Khazad Ai Menu!
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: WarOfTheRingVeteran am 5. Nov 2015, 02:00
I really like most of your ideas (especially the last one :), but I'm still not fine with Bilbo being recruited in the farm, for he never had anything to do with either rural lifestyle or managing farms. Maybe rather being available in the citadel after the farm is built?

The Dwarves are upon you as well! :)
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: KingdomofErebor am 5. Nov 2015, 09:44
Thanks man, yeah the only reason I said to recruit him form the farm is because he's a hobbit, and I'm assuming all of Imladris hobbit units (if any) are recruitable form there, I know he didn't really have anything to do with agriculture, however he did travel to Rivendell from the shire so I think it works better if he arrives form out side of the citadel

Khazad ai menu son of Durin!
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: WarOfTheRingVeteran am 6. Nov 2015, 02:56
Yes, he did travel from Shire, but he was always inside the walls... I mean, inside Rivendell, so it would be logical for him to be expected to be found in the citadel. That's at least my opinion.

"...son of Durin"... I'm actually flattered by this. Thank you, this means something to me :) Your words are more valuable than a yard long vein of mithril! :)
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Darkslayer am 6. Nov 2015, 04:53
Zitat von: Ealendril am 26. Okt 2015, 13:45
The big question: What happens to the old Bilbo, after he is no longer available at dwarven realm Erebor? We are open to suggestions, forth with your ideas! ;)
Imladirs scout seems like it would make the most sense to me. I know there probably already is one but I'm not sure what other way you could fit him in that would make sense. The idea of him being non-playable is interesting, but that's the thing - I'd prefer him to be playable. :P
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Hüter am 12. Nov 2015, 20:40
After having now fought for a while about Bilbo's best integration to Rivendell, but being not able to find one complete concept to present to the community, I wanted to share them anyway with you. Maybe somebody else gets inspired and finds a good conception. ;)
The first one is about how Bilbo develops:
Most of the heroes get stronger as they gain experience and level. But I think that for old Bilbo it could be more fitting having him loose attack, moving speed and health to show his decline from when he leaves the ring to Frodo to when he goes to Aman. In this way, he could be used for creeping at low level, while he stays in the fortress once he is more levelled and uses his abilities, which obviously should get stronger and more and more global as he looses physical strength. In addition, I would propose an alternative level system, as the ET did for other scout heroes. For me, Bilbo's main aim in his last years on earth was finishing his story. So, I thought that he could gain experience and new abilities could be unlocked, as the work on his book goes on (e.g when he reaches level 3, you can select "Out of the fire and into the frying pan", which, after a certain time unlocks the ability). This would allow him to level without fighting. For the abilities, I was thinking about something related to the stages of his journey, but I could not find anything, that would fit his role, be strong enough and at the same time not op, while being useful to Imladris too. But maybe somebody out there is more creative there.  ;)

Another idea I had was implementing Bilbo only content-wise but not as a playable character. When we last tested Imladris, the scriptorium (you might remember, else read here: http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-the-last-homely-house) could not represent an equal option to the blacksmith. So I thought that Bilbo could be an upgrade to this building, which allows you to "write" the chapters of his story. Once it was "written", a hero may read it and get some benfits from it (e.g. if he reads the chapter of the trolls, every troll killed by that hero drops a treasure or something like that). One bad point of this concept is, that a high elve from Rivendell would surely not need Bilbo's novel teaching him how to fight monsters.

By reading attentively, you surely have noticed that both ideas lack of abilities. This is mainly because I found none. My only better idea was an interaction with the spellbook spell "Elrond's council": as Bilbo has (close) relations to most of the summoned heroes (except Boromir and Gimli, but as Gimli comes with Gloin, that's not a problem), he could have an ability, which makes the selected heroes stay longer on the battlefield. Boromir could simply be excluded of this mechanics. I could imagine it being a lvl 10 ability.

For now, that's all. Hope you liked it and maybe find some inspiration. I think together we can create a really unique system for a unique character. :)

Greetings, Hüter
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: AndulusOptimus am 23. Nov 2015, 15:49
Didnt come to read all further suggestions, but I have to say I love DrHouse93's idea, especially the connection to the hobbit farm (boosting the production - which maybe could be implemented a bit further) but also all the other skills. Furthermore I really like the idea with the "need for the one ring", as it would be a unique ability for seeking gollum as the Ringwraiths do it for mordor. Its only fair that one good faction holds kind of the same ability. Further I think old Bilbo definitely is part of the war of the ring, although he is not at the front fighting (is sauron actually?? --> no). And I think DrHouse93 perfectly fitted Bilbos character in the possiblities of the game. Last but not least I have to say Bilbo should neither be a scout hero nor a warrior/mage/... but should be able to defend himself, as he would if he would be under attack. And though he is not the strongest and youngest anymore he has a lot of skills and experience and wisdome which is enough to be at last not defenceless.

All in all a great and interesting poll, looking forward on how old bilbo will be implemented into imladris(?)!

Cheers! AndulusOptimus
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 24. Nov 2016, 19:08
The only thing I have to add on this subject is to have Old Bilbo do something for buildings. Given that he is writing a book, maybe he can do a special effect on Libraries and also help Loremasters recruit faster. Put him and Erestor on a building and everything should upgrade at super speed.

Or have Old Bilbo replace what Erestor does, and make Erestor more of a fighting hero like what he looks like on Games Workshop.
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Walküre am 24. Nov 2016, 20:53
Hi Blue Wizard. The general proposal of Old Bilbo being implemented as a 'static' feature (just like Erestor) is not feasible without a quite disturbing bug, which does occur even now in regards of Erestor: having multiple replicas of Bilbo and Erestor as many castles/camps you can dispose of. Yes, as we pretty much all agreed, a supportive role connected to your own base is the proper characterisation for them; only, it really seems that we can't achieve this without the presence of the previously-mentioned implication.

The internal staff has discussed this topic since the very first beginning of Imladris, yet we didn't find the solution to the issue. Very recently, I suggested both the two heroes be made ordinary heroes, whose main abilities should exactly be focused on support within the base. I still have to come up with something more precise, though I really deem this a possible concept to look into: it's true that we might lose Erestor's smart and unique mechanics, but a simplistic concept would maybe result in a successful one. Like Denethor, for example; we lost his past clever mechanics, when he would be active upon the citadel, but we can now play with him without any major problem to care about (some even think that the current system does him true justice now).

Nevertheless, the thread remains still well open. Any new insight will be gladly welcome.
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 17. Dez 2016, 05:51
To Diewalkure, I like the idea of Erestor and Old Bilbo, being more Denethor like. But do we really need Old Bilbo in the first place? I mean he is good for upgrades and stuff on buildings, but that should be it.

Erestor I could see being a more aggressive character and fighter. I really don't know what everyone is looking for. But I feel Erestor should be his own hero with unique abilities. I mean, ET could even include Lindir as well.

I know that is a little off topic but I guess I don't really have a good answer for this. Only thing I would say is make Bilbo a hero that does nothing but upgrade buildings, make Erestor a unique hero that is either a tank, hero killer, or mass slayer, and make Lindir another hero that upgrades buildings. That is what I would suggest, take it as you will but I have no further comment or thoughts on this matter sadly.
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Slawek56703 am 17. Dez 2016, 07:36
Zitat
Erestor I could see being a more aggressive character and fighter. I really don't know what everyone is looking for. But I feel Erestor should be his own hero with unique abilities.
make Erestor a unique hero that is either a tank, hero killer, or mass slayer, and make Lindir another hero that upgrades buildings. That is what I would suggest, take it as you will but I have no further comment or thoughts on this matter sadly.


Zitat
In The Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game, Erestor is equipped with two Ñoldorin daggers, suggesting that he is one of the Ñoldor.

I smell good scout hero with Mass Slayer capabilities that replace current scout hero which is an Archer . Give him Legolas knive fighter animation and we can try to develop new abilities for Erestor from previous versions of Edain + ideas that fits such hero .
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 17. Dez 2016, 16:03
 Slawek56703 I could totally get behind this. In all honesty,  Gildor Inglorian ran off a nazgul, in this mod, I don't get the sense that Gildor could run off Pippin or Merry, which is a total downplay of his character.

I think Erestor or Lindir could be a good scout hero, the only problem I see with Erestor being a scout hero is that it downplays his role as a counselor in the books. But like you said and games workshop has done, the two daggers are important and he is a noldor.

So to conclude would say that Erestor is more of a scout hero than Gildor, but Lindir could fulfill this role as well. I am for whoever brings Gildor out of his non-canonical role.
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Dez 2016, 21:03
Zitat von: dkbluewizard am 17. Dez 2016, 05:51
To Diewalkure, I like the idea of Erestor and Old Bilbo, being more Denethor like. But do we really need Old Bilbo in the first place? I mean he is good for upgrades and stuff on buildings, but that should be it.

Yes, that's in fact the role I would like him to be appointed. A definitely minor role, yet even a secondary role has a quite indicative and evocative meaning, since Bilbo is a too much relevant of a character to be left out in any way (in my opinion). I don't really mind details, as long as we see him again in the game. His model already exists and the Edain Team has already been provided with the proper sound set.

Regarding Erestor and Lindir, I think it should be better if Erestor only remained a stable hero of the faction. I don't despise Lindir at all, but the character is completely fictional and basically serves as a counterpart of Erestor in the Hobbit trilogy (Erestor's sounds in the game are exactly the lines of Lindir in AUJ). Certainly, a Denethor-like Erestor is to have his role a bit expanded indeed. I agree with you about that.
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 17. Dez 2016, 23:16
Diewalkure. I am glad we are in agreement. So Old Bilbo for upgrades and Erestor to be more Denethor like. I agree with you, however, Lindir is from the book LOTR Fellowship of the Ring.

Don't believe me? http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Lindir

Check that link to see. But I do agree Lindir isn't needed. I prefer a Erestor with Lindir quotes and cool abilities.
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Dez 2016, 23:54
Yes, Erestor should be more Denethor-like, provided that his range of action remains well within the safe defences of the castle/camp (what about abilities that focus on the defence of buildings?). Or in another case, Erestor, as the librarian of Rivendell, could retain his role as building supporter, as long as his knowledge focuses 'only' on the upgrades of the Library and the ones of the Eregion Forge (that is, upgrades that relate to the lost arts of the Noldor). Bilbo could convey his energies into economic upgrades.

EDIT: Thank you for having clarified the presence of Lindir in the lore. I didn't know he was a canonical character from the books.
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 18. Dez 2016, 01:30
Diewalkure, lore is my specialty. It is what I bring to the table.

Now what do we have to do on this discussion to get ET to notice our discussion and hopefully get our ideas implemented?
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Walküre am 18. Dez 2016, 02:08
Zitat von: dkbluewizard am 18. Dez 2016, 01:30
Now what do we have to do on this discussion to get ET to notice our discussion and hopefully get our ideas implemented?

The Edain Team reads most of the proposals posted here. We just have to wait for a response (and it's not necessarily certain that there will be one) or we can polish the suggestion even more; while waiting for answers, other people might come and provide their own views. Nevertheless, all these eventualities keep the thread under the spotlight. The mechanics of MU help a lot in this sense, as any new reply makes the topic relevant.
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 18. Dez 2016, 02:43
Okay Diewalkure, thanks for the input. I guess I'll wait now.
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Bilbo Backings am 27. Jan 2017, 01:24
Hello friends,
I also have an idea for old Bilbo. After reading the discussion here about whether or not Bilbo should be freely movable and whether he should be fighting or buffing the economy or buildings or heroes I thought about what Bilbo is actually doing in the books in Rivendell. And overall I would say he rests.
So why not link Bilbo to the resting place? The resting place is in my opinion this leisurely place in Imladris where Bilbo would probably spend some time reading, singing and writing. And since he is a guest in a place full of marvelous noldorians he would (with all respect) more hinder than help in any other of Imladris´s buildings. And the resting place would be the perfect spot to use some of the awesome abilities centered around hospitallity and arts you guys proposed.

The resting place opens a whole book of possibilites. It could just be the place from which Bilbo for example buffs the hobbit farms but with Edain 4.5 and the coming siege changes Bilbo could "cast" powerfully buffs to the resting place, which for example drastically improve the leadership and health regeneration for a short period of time to fend off attackers, but after the spell faded the resting place doesn´t give any bonuses for a while.

My proposal for Bilbo:
*Make him recruitable in the resting place. When he is recruited he is placed in the resting place like the Twins were placed in the Eregion forge in 3.81. If you order him out of the resting place or it is destroyed he can´t use his abilities (he also can´t fight at all) and you can move him slowly around (I like the idea of using Gandalf the darks animation) or into another resting place.

*When recuited he is level 10 and gets all his abilities, so he should cost a considerable amount of ressources (like 1000 res or smth)

*1. Bilbos presence. Passive. Bilbos joyful and pleasant nature makes the resting place a far more comfortable place. -  Boosts the leadership from +20% armor and attack to +25%. Adds -10% hero recruitment reducting cost (So that you only need 3 resting places for the full bonus) And maybe boost the healing rate a liddle.

*2.Legendary Stories and fairy tales. - Passive: After a long day of work the hobbit farmers eagerly anticipate Bilbos stories. -  +5% res production on hobbit farms
                                                           - When activated on a single farm: In times of need the hobbits still  remember Bilbos stories of adventure and they awake the Tuc-blood in some of them. - The amount of hobbits defending the farm doubles. They get +25% armor and +50% attack for a short period of time (for example 25 seconds). But the farm won´t produce resources double the time of the spells duration (so for example 50 seconds).  -  (This spell should give you the abilitiy to fend off a small harrassments by weaker units and damage a stronger one at the cost of resources)

*3.Deep conversation. In a deep conversation about past adventures and poetry Bilbo lifts the burdens of responsibility and sorrows in his counterpart. His counterpart receives a clear mind and can now fight stronger than ever. - Sends friendly hero into the resting place to join Bilbo for a minute. (The hero is now in the resting place and off the battlefield) After this time the hero returns with improved combat stats which last for example 3 minutes. Like for example 15% more damage and armor, but I am not an balance expert :) (Easter egg: When you send  Ring hero Elrond in there is a 5% chance that Bilbo snatches the Ring and becomes evil Bilbo :D) 

*4.Elbereth song Edit: Should be Earendil poem (thx @NetoD20 for inspiration) - Bilbos recite his poem of praise for Earendil in times of need. It touches the hearts of the elven soldiers and motivates them to accomplish great tasks. - Friendly soldiers in the fortress gain a drastically better version of the resting place bonus for a short time (like 50% armor and attack) and in combat healing. After that Bilbo is exhausted and his resting place gives no bonuses for some time at all. This ability has of course a long cooldown.

*5.Going on an last adventure Bilbo leaves the resting place

-Note that english isn´t my mothers tonque so if you like my Bilbo proposal feel free to give my abilities badass names.

Hoped you liked my version of old Bilbo or that I at least inspired you a little bit.

Grettings
Bilbo Bakings

Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Ectheldir am 27. Jan 2017, 17:22
I actually really like this last proposal (maybe some numbers would have to be tweaked, but I'm also no expert at that.
Only thing I'm wondering is: What is his last ability for?
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Bilbo Backings am 27. Jan 2017, 17:35
Thank you for your support :D
The last power should just make it possible to relocate Bilbo without destroying the resting place. Also maybe some people want to move him around for mere amusement, so I fought it would be a good idea.
Probably you could reposition Bilbo with a different feature though and we would have another space for a power in his palantir.
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: DrHouse93 am 27. Jan 2017, 20:28
I also really like this last proposal, sounds more fitting than any of the previous ones. I just have some doubts about Deep Conversation, because I don't think a Noldor veteran hero should have some major bonus by speaking with a old Hobbit  :D
Other than this, great work^^
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Saruman der Bunte am 1. Feb 2017, 14:49
Hm. Yes, it does seem to be a rather neet idea connecting Bilbo with the resting place. Maybe one could further discuss the proposed abilities, but I do like the idea at the heart of this very much. I may write more later.
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Dain@ am 5. Feb 2017, 10:24
Hi people ! Great ideas (NetoD20, DrHouse93,  Bilbo Backings) But the truth is somewhere in the middle of your ideas .From himself would like to add the following: As Bilbo has already gone through one with the best adventures in Middle-earth, he can become a unique hero!. Firstly I have about this topic inspiring quote from the movie when Galadriel asks Gandalf why he chose to which he replied: "Probably because I am afraid and he gives me strength Saruman believes that only the great and the strong can resist evil, but I'm sure. small good set of good works of ordinary people can stop the evil. " I kazhetsa this phrase describes very well the role of Bilbo. Bilbo at all unique hero with unique rolyu, its main advantages is stealth (very quietly can peredvigatsya) vezuchist (fate clearly favors hobbit) surprise (nihto of strong Middle-earth does not expect that they will prtivostoyat hobbit that provides odds for the most hobbit) and extraordinary hrabrast (Malenko as he has a strong character that courage dokazoval protezhenii on the trip). I must be the hero Bilbo support, and excellent yields could simbeoz ideas (NetoD20, DrHouse93,  Bilbo Backings). Bilbo vkoem case should not become a hero to support buildings, because then killed his desire for the latest adventure.

And yes! (DieWalküre, dkbluewizard) I agree with you that Erestor must explicitly get a boost. I think he should get the role of the army and the support of buildings!
Adding Bilbo and Erestora uniquely zdelaet Imladris even more interesting! and I hope that 4.5 or 4.6. we will add a lot of new impressions going and the joy of the game of Imladris !!!
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Walküre am 27. Jan 2019, 16:34
Speaking about bringing olden topics back to life, there seems to be another major dilemma which has long been keeping the Edain Community awake at night. A spectre infesting the boards of Modding Union since 2015...

Zitat
What to do with Old Bilbo?

My respectable and long-time friend, Dr. House, had already put forward some interesting ideas out there.

Regardless of divergent opinions, I hope we can all agree that Rivendell is the only faction where our weather-beaten character could find solace and repose, while immersing himself in his wide-ranging studies. That's why, as concurred pretty much all attendees of this discussion, supportive abilities would be very desirable. I mean, the poor, declining Bilbo should stay inside the fortress as an obligated choice; conceptually, it would also be wrong to portray him as the ultimate source of knowledge in Imladris, given that every inhabitant of the Fair Valley can pride themselves with the title of lore-master (the library exists for a reason). So, I believe Bilbo's presence might cheer the atmosphere up and thereby providing economy with an adequate bonus. Or other kinds of bonuses, complying with the arguments illustrated.

His hypothetical abilities, additionally, should too follow a stay-in-the-fortress logic. Anyhow, I'm looking forward to everyone's contribution :)


In force of the course of the very thread, I shall move the topic to the Imladris board.

--- MOVED ---
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 28. Jan 2019, 00:49
Problem is that he doesn't fit into main base which is purely elvish. The same case is role - all hobbits in the game are scouts but he is old for such role. Unit support? Really? Old hobbit will support elves? Or structures support? Erestor is special feature for structures ... Then remains Hobbit farm? He lived in the warm hobbit hole not on the farm. And finally spellbook where he would lead young hobbits into the battle. It's not so peaceful for old hobbit...
I can imagine him only as a special feature in Rivendell map. Either recruitable or only visual/cosmetic.
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Jan 2019, 14:27
I thought about 'internal' support, in the sense that he should be obliged to remain inside the base and assert his influence there. The problem is, though: what kind of support? Units and heroes are pretty much automatically excluded; economic support would be a nice idea, but here is a conflict with Erestor's current role. The only solution appears to be a simple structure feature (Bilbo is attached to the library, as one of its elements). He could just be shown reading and being fully drawn to his studies. A cosmetic touch, nothing major. Non-playable, of course.

Otherwise, that would quite be a waste of content. I think his model still holds some positive qualities, which would consequently embellish the faction a bit.
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Bilbo Backings am 30. Jan 2019, 14:21
I might be a bit biased, but I still like my last proposal somewhat  :)

Tying Bilbo to the Resting Place would fit to the idea of him being bound to the fortress. From there he could be giving boni for the hobbit farms, which would make them more viable. I realize that it is not that plausible for Bilbo to enhance the knowledge and skills of noldorian warriors but for me it is not far fetched that he would be able to rally them. The Noldorians left in Rivendell have their eyes and minds in the times of the War of the Ring either on Sauron and his darkness or on Valinor. The presence of Bilbo in this trying times shows them that there are still simple and good things left in Middle Earth worth fighting for.

Him buffing the Resting Place would also fit well into Rivendell overall, since it is also known as the last homely house. I think it is fair to assume that Bilbo makes Rivendell even more likeable for other travellers and guests. I would really like Rivendell having mechanics around this aspect of its lore.
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Tiberius Ogden am 30. Jan 2019, 15:04
I'm in! xD

I can clearly see him there. :)


I'm not sure concerning bonuses which you suggested (there is still room for discussion), but visually should be definitely incluced there.
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: Walküre am 30. Jan 2019, 15:22
I second as well. That would be a nice aesthetic inclusion! ;)

I guess we can do without bonuses. After all, he's travelled to Rivendell to spend his last years of his long existence in serenity. Why would he necessarily have to do something? He can simply enjoy the Valley's perennial calmness and be absolutely fine :)
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 31. Jan 2019, 14:45
I agree with him just being a visual aspect of the resting place. I'm not sure if him having abilities would be that good for him at this stage of his life, so the aesthetic changes sounds good.
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: steadii am 24. Dez 2020, 20:16
I agree that old Bilbo sitting in resting place would be nice addition.
He would even provide some bonus.
Titel: Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
Beitrag von: IgRAzm am 29. Dez 2021, 01:28
Wonderful thread :). Check it at last moment but it gave me an idea for my concept (partly based on another concept already). You can see it on German forum here (in English): https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,36860.0.html