Modding Union
[en] The English RPG Forum => RPG Discussions, Feedback and Proposals => Thema gestartet von: Walküre am 27. Aug 2016, 22:36
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This is the relative thread of the White Council game (https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,33833.msg444369.html#msg444369), meant to allow the participants to discuss its development, other people to give feedback and new possible users, who might want to join it, to ask for acceptance in the very RPG game.
The White Council game has been an idea of ours even before the establishment of this section: given its iconic relevance in Tolkien's lore and the pivotal characters involved, we thought that it would have been the best work to begin with. The English RPG Team sincerely hopes it will also serve as a proper guidance for anyone approaching to this section for the first time. Just like the White Council intended to counsel the Free People in their time of need. It magnificently symbolises kindness and unity for a greater goal ;)
(http://cdn.collider.com/wp-content/uploads/the-hobbit-christopher-lee-hugo-weaving.jpg)
Elrond: VectorMaximus
Galadriel: DieWalküre
Gandalf: Fine
Saruman: The_Necromancer0
Erestor: kolibri8
Glorfindel
Círdan
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I want to give my compliments to all participants: you've so far all done an impressive job in writing, language and storytelling. It is a lot of fun to write and it helps me improve my skills of the english language. I am looking forward to the continuation of the council and the tales we will share. :)
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It is a lot of fun to write and it helps me improve my skills of the english language. I am looking forward to the continuation of the council and the tales we will share. :)
Lore content, forum cooperation, fun and practice of the language: I really see this as a win-win situation 8-)
I'm thinking about structuring the meeting in multiple events, during a span of, say, 2/3 days. The first night (until dawn) could be centred on the general discussion of the most important topics, like a main overview of the context. The second day could then be appointed to be the meeting that nominates the head of the White Council, even though I still have to come up with a suitable typology to follow (an election, a proclamation by consensus or a single member's proposal?). I guess the third and last day should deal with concrete measures to take and the assembly's final decisions.
Needless to say, in between each meeting there can be space for more intimate talks among certain guests or internal conversations of some characters encompassing memories and past events. Let me know your own considerations ;)
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Sorry, if the progress of the game seems to be halted. Galadriel's address to the White Council will soon arrive. It's just that I was busy with other things.
Besides, I was recently wondering about how many possibilities we have with this theme: we might explore the other meetings (centuries after the first) too and maybe present our own interpretation of the attack on Dol Guldur. I'm sure we will have the opportunity to do great deeds together 8-)
Goodnight ;)
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I would post, but I've recently moved into my college (university by European standard), and my free time is at an all time low. I will make an effort to get out the next Elrond pov though.
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Take all the time you need, and good luck with university (I'm going to start my classes soon too). Alongside matters that concern the development of the game, we are obviously more than entitled to manage our participation here and to find solutions to suit anyone's needs :)
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Of course nobody should feel any sort of pressure as a part of any of our RPG works, this is never a good circumstance for creative writing I would say. As Walküre said earlier, just continue whenever you get to it and when you are in the right mood. I look forward to how the other council members will react, but I will wait patiently until the right time has come.
In the meantime, I am finishing up the Siege of Dol Guldur on the german RPG, which will probably happen tomorrow. So yeah, I keep myself occupied ;)
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Would it be possible for someone to move the game along? Not immediately of course but when your time allows it, I've got a Saruman pov ready but it would work best as a reaction to something, such as somebody entering the library or the next phase of the council being called. Again, don't rush, just whenever possible, I'd greatly appreciate it.
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We decided to move forward to the meeting of the second day, meant to choose the leader of the White Council (elected by the majority of the members) and to indicate its precise role. Vector is willing to call for the second assembly as soon as he can; I guess you're nonetheless more than free to add your piece to the narration now, provided that it didn't refer specifically to the second meeting or that it didn't need the second meeting to begin (Elrond is the only one authorised to start the talks).
Sorry for not having informed you about this, but we were discussing in our internal forum and this topic was brought out as well. As always, the malicious Wise plot behind the White Wizard's back :D
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And then you guys wonder why Saruman turned evil... :D
I'll keep my piece for now, see if I can fit it anywhere later. Looking forward to the seconds meeting. xD
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Galadriel has accepted the refusal of Gandalf to be appointed as the leader of the White Council. After all the other members of the assembly have announced the candidate they want to lead them, we should proceed with the actual election. And, dealing with this aspect, I want to share these considerations.
Galadriel is willing to abstain from expressing other preferences and she will therefore abstain from voting any of the ones proposed by the others. With her abstention, I want to give the sense that she's quite sceptical about whatever outcome is to result from that election; that is, she will never be fully convinced by the final choice of the council (and the future events will prove her right).
That attitude will also introduce one of the factors at the root of the unfriendliness (destined to grow ever more manifest as time passes by) between Galadriel and Saruman: the fact that the most authoritative member of the White Council had not supported his candidacy from the beginning was always regarded, by the White Wizard, as a symbol of disloyalty and distrust in his rule.
But abstention also means that Galadriel won't participate actively in the discussion that will then indicate Saruman as the most favoured proposal. Is Elrond going to abstain as well, or will he eventually agree with the other guests about Saruman? I would really like to explore the beginning of the hostility between those two characters, starting from this pivotal occasion, even though I don't want her to seem too much passive or unwilling to take part in the talks. What do you think?
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If you don't have any objection to that, I will proceed with ending the meeting of the White Council with the final response of Galadriel. Then, I'm planning to make a very small digression in the in-between period before the beginning of the second meeting. By that time, Saruman will have elected Isengard as his stable dwelling and started to immerse himself into the lore of the Rings of Power (trying to retrieve some of the lost and forgotten arts). We'll then discuss what the main topics of the second meeting will be centred on :)
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Ok, I set all the pieces for the second meeting of the White Council to officially start. Before immersing ourselves in the events, I'm planning to do a brief digression (something that occurred just some time prior to the second meeting). Of course, were you to have other digressions to explore in mind (a particular adventure of Gandalf during his journeys or some reminiscences of Saruman), you're more than welcome to express yourselves.
In my opinion, due to the gravity of the situation, the second meeting ought to be characterised by more resentful/hard feelings, heated discussions (via the usage of quite brief posts) and, overall, a much more lively climate. You don't absolutely have to worry about time or boundaries of space (there are none), because we can easily alter the time of the narration at our own will. Another aspect, which would certainly be interesting to focus on, could be the story-telling activity of each character, who might be willing to make the assembly aware of particular memories or happenings; for example, Fine might be keen on telling us what was like to confront Sauron in Dol Guldur. The scopes for creativity are really vast indeed, and we should consequently take advantage of that.
As always, if you have any doubt or if you want to put forward a certain strategy, every suggestion is well accepted here :)
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I agree with the more serious and, in some way, passionate tone of the upcoming discussion. For Gandalf, I would like to start the meeting with him giving a full report of his foray into Dol Guldur; but I do not have any previous digressions planned. I will wait until everyone is ready to join the Council Meeting and then start if off with Gandalf's tale, if that is okay with all of you.
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Ok, I'm perfectly fine with that. My digression narrates an event occurred immediately after the discovery of Gandalf. It is connected with it, but it doesn't involve him directly.
Obviously, as it's easily intelligible, Saruman will eventually refuse to assault the fortress. But I'm sure it will be very interesting to portray the heated discussion which is to take place. Necro will have to defend his position against very determined opponents xD
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*mind controls everyone* Done. :P
I'm looking forward to a more heated debate, although I'll have to do my best to keep my text to the same standards. Perhaps, I shall try to digress with memories of Valinor, it could be interesting although the result is not guaranteed :D.
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Necro, in my own opinion, digressions concerning Valinor are a bit inappropriate for the general tone of these events. Not just in regards of Saruman, but for all the other characters as well. In particular, haven't the Istari had their memories of Aman almost entirely concealed within their own mind, so that they would not have made usage of them to acquire more power? If I were to explore some digressions with Saruman, I would opt for his obsession with the Rings of Power. Anyway, this is just an advice of mine.
Don't worry about the comments. The point of the second meeting is exactly to recreate a very heated discussion, comprising thus shorter answers (unless one member is to tell a certain story, as Gandalf). Therefore, I guess we won't focus on high-tone phrasing, but rather on impactful contributions :)
I want all of them to argue :D
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With your consent, I will insert another smaller digression and then the official meeting will officially start.
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Sure, go ahead :)
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For the sake of the narration, if Vector is not able yet to join us, each of us could momentarily take the role of Elrond, provided that we maintain a coherent idea. The quite neutral behaviour of the Lord of Imladris, as the moderator of the meeting, will surely help.
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I'm a bit unsure of when and where the second session is, time- and space-related. The latest interlude took place in Lothlórien; is the setting switching back to Rivendell now? Just wanting to make sure I understand correctly what the plan is.
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Yes, that was the second digression I had planned. Galadriel was riding to Rivendell with her escort (to attend the meeting), whereas Celeborn remained in Lórien and endeavoured to organise the defences (in case of a sudden attack in the Lady's absence). I will open the meeting later in the evening.
Instead of an open-air setting, I pictured the council taking place in Elrond's residence (indoor), each of the participants being in front of one another around a banquet-like rectangular table. The weather is supposed to be quite stormy (or, probably more fitting for Rivendell, it could also be a calm yet rainy night), in order to indicate the gravity of the situation and the general anxious mood which is pervasive among the Wise; not to mention the bitterness of the debate that is soon to occur.
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I apologise. I just finished my weekly university classes today and had to reply to other posts this evening. I didn't manage to open the second meeting. As I have spare time these days, I will settle the game tomorrow and focus on its initial development :)
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One question: does Saruman know that Gandalf is the bearer of Narya? One of my intentions is also to explore what could be an interesting aspect; that is, Gandalf didn't tell the whole story to Saruman. Not only was he chased down in the dungeons of Dol Guldur, but he also had to withstand a direct confrontation with the formless shadow-like Sauron, similarly to how they contested each other in DOS. Gandalf then succeeded in warding off the darkness, particularly with the help that Narya provided (strengthening endurance). Therefore, only Gandalf and Galadriel are the ones who do have knowledge of the exact events. What if they had decided to report just a part of the tale, lest Saruman know the actual identity of the mysterious bearer of the Ring of Fire? A riddle the White Wizard had often struggled to solve.
What do you make of this spin?
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Apparently the Unfinished Tales mention that the "White Messenger" (Saruman) became aware of Narya at some point, but no precise time is given. I'm looking forward to contributing to this continuation even if I have been a bit short on time recently. Playing as Saruman is really thrilling. No matter what is decided on the matter of the Narya, Saruman can be played either way.
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With your consent, I would opt for Saruman being unaware of the identity of whom bears Narya. He surely knows the generalities of the Three Rings' properties, but he still doesn't have knowledge of the actual fate of these artefacts. If he can easily guess those who wield Nenya and Vilya, the individual-centred nature of the Ring of Fire certainly makes it more difficult to determine Narya's vicissitudes in the course of numerous centuries. I also think that this aspect of the narration might represent Gandalf's and Galadriel's distrust towards Saruman in better terms; specifically, they worry about his eager interest in the forgotten lore of the Rings of Power.
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So be it. I've already started writing my piece with Saruman unaware, so I'm fine with keeping it this way.
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I wrote my text with that assumption in mind (Saruman not being aware of Narya's true wielder); I hope I did not misinterpret anything I said in Gandalf's report.
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Just to hint at a possible aspect to develop, I remember reading that the White Council had been believing for long time that the dark presence in Dol Guldur might have been one of the Nazgûl, if not the very Witch-king, until the discovery of Gandalf. I guess it would be interesting if Saruman tried to advocate that thesis again, in order to dissuade the other attendees' propositions.
Not to mention that the involvement of the Witch-king in the debate could give Elrond a chance to reminisce his memories of the wars against Angmar. In this case, I suppose, someone more versed than me in the lore of Arnor might be happy to give insightful contributions :)
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2 small things about the POV I just posted:
1. Sorry if the ending feels a bit cheap, I've run out of actual arguments.
2. I'm leaving it open ended, you can either assume Saruman is done talking or you can pick up from some point in his argument.
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In accordance to Necro, we are soon to deal with possible integrations from the lore of the Unfinished Tales, via examining here some possibilities, in order to provide the context with many more elements to explore. As we have hitherto agreed, Saruman will remain unaware of Narya being wielded by Gandalf.
Of course, expedients such as summaries or loose endings are well contemplated. The other player will always be able to make usage of the situation and widen the game at will. On the matter, I think we should debate the prospect of the threat being one of the Nazgûl a bit more thoroughly. The divergent views of the guests will continuously clash with Saruman's refusal to take immediate action. At some point, in the midst of the heated exchange, things are inevitably to end abruptly, with Saruman overruling (with legitimacy) the other members of the council. Obviously, the duration of the very debate has no boundaries at all; we can freely prolong it as our will commands.
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My research for valid arguments lead me deeper than ever within the Middle Earth lore and into the Unfinished Tales. Once I got there, a couple paragraphs and sections caught my eyes and the seemed as though they could be interesting additions to the RPG. I looked through most of the text but only ended up finding one section that I found could be used directly in the RPG. Although there was quite a lot on Galadriel (and Celeborn), the Quest for Erebor, the Hunt for the One Ring and Disaster of the Gladden Fields (death of Isildur).
( Link to PDF (https://toleratedindividuality.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/unfinished-tales-the-lost-lore-of-middle-earth.pdf))
Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire
Now because of his dislike and fear, in the later days Saruman avoided Gandalf, and they seldom met, except at the assemblies of the White Council. It was at the great Council held in 2851 that the "Halflings' leaf" was first spoken of, and the matter was noted with amusement at the time, though it was afterwards remembered in a different light. The Council met in Rivendell, and Gandalf sat apart, silent, but smoking prodigiously (a thing he had never done before on such an occasion), while Saruman spoke against him, and urged that contrary to Gandalf's advice Dol Guldur should not yet be molested. Both the silence and the smoke seemed greatly to annoy Saruman, and before the Council dispersed be said to Gandalf: "When weighty matters are in debate, Mithrandir, I wonder a little that you should play with your toys of fire and smoke, while others are in earnest speech."
But Gandalf laughed, and replied: "You would not wonder if you used this herb yourself. Yon might find that smoke blown out cleared your mind of shadows within. Anyway, it gives patience, to listen to error without anger. But it is not one of my toys. It is an art of the Little People away in the West: merry and worthy folk, though not of much account, perhaps, in your high policies."
Saruman was little appeased by this answer (for he hated mockery, however gentle), and he said then coldly: "You jest, Lord Mithrandir, as is your way. I know well enough that you have become a curious explorer of the small: weeds, wild things and childish folk. Your time is your own to spend, if you have nothing worthier to do; and your friends you may make as you please. But to me the days are too dark for wanderers' tales, and I have no time for the simples of peasants."
Gandalf did not laugh again; and he did not answer, but looking keenly at Saruman he drew on his pipe and sent out a great ring of smoke with many smaller rings that followed it. Then he put up his hand, as if to grasp them, and they vanished. With that he got up and left Saruman without another word; but Saruman stood for some time silent, and his face was dark with doubt and displeasure.
This talks more of the dissent between Saruman and Gandalf where we can see Saruman mock Gandalf for his us of pipe weed and Gandalf let off a couple ambiguous rings of smoke. I must admit, I wasn't sure how canon these were since this Gandalf was not the one I grew up knowing but nonetheless I'm sure this part could be used in the Gandalf or Saruman POV.
Another set of papers from the same period consists of a large number of unfinished accounts of
Saruman's earlier dealings with the Shire, especially as they concerned the "Halflings' leaf," a matter that
is touched on in connection with the "squint-eyed southerner" (see pp. 362-3). The following text is one
version among many, but though briefer than some is the most finished.
Saruman soon became jealous of Gandalf, and this rivalry turned at last to a hatred, the deeper for being
concealed, and the more bitter in that Saruman knew in his heart that the Grey Wanderer had the greater
strength, and the greater influence upon the dwellers in Middle-earth, even though he hid his power and
desired neither fear nor reverence. Saruman did not revere him, but he grew to fear him, being ever
uncertain how much Gandalf perceived of his inner mind, troubled more by his silences than by his
words. So it was that openly he treated Gandalf with less respect than did others of the Wise, and was
ever ready to gainsay him or to make little of his counsels; while secretly he noted and pondered all that
he said, setting a watch, so far as he was able, upon all his movements.
It was in this way that Saruman came to give thought to the Halflings and the Shire, which otherwise he
would have deemed beneath his notice. He had at first no thought that the interest of his rival in this
people had any connexion with the great concerns of the Council, least of all with the Rings of Power, For
indeed in the beginning it had no such connexion, and was due only to Gandalf's love for the Little People,
unless his heart had some deep premonition beyond his waking thought. For many years he visited the
Shire openly, and would speak of its people to any who would listen; and Saruman would smile, as at the
idle tales of an old land-rover, but he took heed nonetheless.
Seeing then that Gandalf thought the Shire worth visiting, Saruman himself visited it, but disguised and in
the utmost secrecy, until he had explored and noted all its ways and lands, and thought then he had learned
all that there was to know of it. And even when it seemed to him no longer wise nor profitable to go
thither, he still had spies and servants that went in or kept an eye upon its borders. For he was still
suspicious. He was himself so far fallen that he believed all others of the Council had each their deep and
far-reaching policies for their own enhancement, to which all that they did must in some way refer. So
when long after he learned something of the finding of Gollum's Ring by the Halfling, he could believe
only that Gandalf .had known of this all the time; and this was his greatest grievance, since all that
concerned the Rings he deemed his especial province. That Gandalf's mistrust of him was merited and
just in no way lessened his anger.
Yet in truth Saruman's spying and great secrecy had not in the beginning any evil purpose, but was no more
than a folly born of pride. Small matters, unworthy it would seem to be reported, may yet prove of great
moment ere the end. Now truth to tell, observing Gandalf's love of the herb that he called "pipe-weed"
(for which, he said, if for nothing else, the Little People should be honoured), Saruman had affected to
scoff at it, but in private he made trial of it, and soon began to use it; and for tins reason the Shire
remained important to him. Yet he dreaded lest this should be discovered, and his own mockery turned
against him, so that he would be laughed at for imitating Gandalf, and scorned for doing so by stealth.
This then was the reason for his great secrecy in all his dealings with the Shire even from the first before
any shadow of doubt had fallen upon it, and it was little guarded, free for those who wished to enter. For
this reason also Saruman ceased to go thither in person; for it came to his knowledge that he had not been
all unobserved by the keen-eyed Halflings, and some, seeing the figure as it were of an old man clad in
grey or russet stealing through the woods or passing through the dusk, had mistaken him for Gandalf.
After that Saruman went no more to the Shire, fearing that such tales might spread and come maybe to the
ears of Gandalf. But Gandalf knew of these visits, and guessed their object, and he laughed, thinking this
the most harmless of Saruman's secrets; but he said nothing to others, for it was never his wish that any
one should be put to shame. Nonetheless he was not ill-pleased when the visits of Saruman ceased,
doubting him already, though he could not himself yet foresee that a time would come when Saruman's
knowledge of the Shire would prove perilous and of the greatest service to the Enemy, bringing victory to
within a nail's breadth of his grasp.
In another version there is a description of the occasion when Saruman openly scoffed at Gandalf's use of
the "pipe-weed:"
Now because of his dislike and fear, in the later days Saruman avoided Gandalf, and they seldom met,
except at the assemblies of the White Council. It was at the great Council held in 2851 that the "Halflings'
leaf" was first spoken of, and the matter was noted with amusement at the time, though it was afterwards
remembered in a different light. The Council met in Rivendell, and Gandalf sat apart, silent, but smoking
prodigiously (a thing he had never done before on such an occasion), while Saruman spoke against him,
and urged that contrary to Gandalf's advice Dol Guldur should not yet be molested. Both the silence and
the smoke seemed greatly to annoy Saruman, and before the Council dispersed be said to Gandalf: "When
weighty matters are in debate, Mithrandir, I wonder a little that you should play with your toys of fire and
smoke, while others are in earnest speech." 1
But Gandalf laughed, and replied: "You would not wonder if you used this herb yourself. Yon might find
that smoke blown out cleared your mind of shadows within. Anyway, it gives patience, to listen to error
without anger. But it is not one of my toys. It is an art of the Little People away in the West: merry and
worthy folk, though not of much account, perhaps, in your high policies." 1
Saruman was little appeased by this answer (for he hated mockery, however gentle), and he said then
coldly: "You jest, Lord Mithrandir, as is your way. I know well enough that you have become a curious
explorer of the small: weeds, wild things and childish folk. Your time is your own to spend, if you have
nothing worthier to do; and your friends you may make as you please. But to me the days are too dark for
wanderers' tales, and I have no time for the simples of peasants."
Gandalf did not laugh again; and he did not answer, but looking keenly at Saruman he drew on his pipe
and sent out a great ring of smoke with many smaller rings that followed it. Then he put up his hand, as if
to grasp them, and they vanished. With that he got up and left Saruman without another word; but Saruman
stood for some time silent, and his face was dark with doubt and displeasure.
This story appears in half a dozen different manuscripts, and in one of them it is said that Saruman was
suspicious,
doubting whether he read rightly the purport of Gandalf's gesture with the rings of smoke (above all
whether it showed any connexion between the Halflings and the great matter of the Rings of Power,
unlikely though that might seem); and doubting that one so great could concern himself with such a people
as the Halflings for their own sake merely.
In another (struck through) Gandalf's purpose is made explicit:
It was a strange chance, that being angered by his insolence Gandalf chose this way of showing to
Saruman his suspicion that desire to possess them had begun to enter into his policies and his study of the
lore of the Rings; and of warning him that they would elude him. For it cannot be doubted that Gandalf had
as yet no thought that the Halflings (and still less their smoking) had any connection with the Rings. 23 If
he had had any such thought, then certainly he would not have done then what he did. Yet later when the
Halflings did indeed become involved in this greatest matter, Saruman could believe only that Gandalf
had known or foreknown this, and had concealed the knowledge from him and from the Council - for just
such a purpose as Saruman would conceive: to gain possession and to forestall him.
In the Tale of Years the entry for 2851 refers to the meeting to the White Council in that year, when
Gandalf urged an attack on Dol Guldur but was overruled by Saruman; and a footnote to the entry reads:
"It afterwards became clear that Saruman had then begun to desire to possess the One Ring himself, and
hoped that it might reveal itself, seeking its master, if Sauron were let be for a time." The foregoing story
shows that Gandalf himself suspected Saruman of this at the time of the Council of 2851; though my father
afterwards commented that it appears from Gandalf's story to the Council of Elrond of his meeting with
Radagast that he did not seriously suspect Saruman of treachery (or of desiring the Ring for himself) until
he was imprisoned in Orthanc.
NOTES
1 According to the entry in the Tale of Years for 2951 Sauron sent three, not two, of the Nazgûl to
reoccupy Dol Guldur. The two statements can be reconciled on the assumption that one of the Ringwraiths
of Dol Guldur returned afterwards to Minas Morgul but I think it more likely that the formulation of the
present text was superseded when the Tale of Years was compiled; and it may be noted that in a rejected
version of the present passage there was only one Nazgûl in Dol Guldur (not named as Khamûl, but
referred to as "the Second Chief (the Black Easterling)"), while one remained with Sauron as his chief
messenger.- From notes counting in detail the movements of the Black Riders in the Shire it emerges that it
was Khamûl who came to Hobbiton and spoke to Gaffer Gamgee, who followed the Hobbits along the
road to Stock, and who narrowly missed them at the Bucklebury Ferry (see p.360). The Rider who
accompanied him, whom he summoned by cries on the ridge above Woodhall, and with whom he visited
Farmer Maggot, was "his companion from Dol Guldur." Of Khamûl it is said here that he was the most
ready of all the Nazgûl after the Black Captain himself, to perceive the presence of the Ring, but also the
one whose power was most confused and diminished by daylight.
2 He had indeed in his terror of the Nazgûl dared to hide in Moria. [Author's note.]
3 At the Ford of Bruinen only the Witch-king and two others, with the lure of the Ring straight before
them, had dared to enter the river; the others were driven into it by Glorfindel and Aragorn. [Author's
note.]
4 Gandalf, as he recounted to the Council of Elrond, questioned Gollum while he was imprisoned by the
Elves of Thranduil.
5 Gandalf told the Council of Elrond that after he left Minas Tirith "messages came to me out of Lórien
that Aragorn had passed that way, and that he had found the creature called Gollum." I
6 Gandalf arrived two days later, and left on the 29
th of March early in the morning. After the Carrock he
had a horse, but he had the High Pass over the Mountains to cross. He got a fresh horse at Rivendell, and
making the greatest speed he could he reached Hobbiton late on the 12
th of April, after a journey of nearly
eight hundred miles. [Author's note.]
7 Both here and in the Tale of Years the assault on Osgiliath is dated the 20
th of June.
8 This statement no doubt relates to Boromir's account of the battle at Osgiliath which he gave to the
Council of Elrond: "A power was there that we have not felt before. Some said that it could be seen, like
a great black horseman, a dark shadow under the moon."
9 In a letter written in 1959 my father said: "Between 2463 [Déagol the Stoor found the One Ring,
according to the Tale of Years] and the beginning of Gandalf's special enquiries concerning the Ring
(nearly 500 years later) they [the Stoors] appear indeed to have died out altogether (except of course for
Sméagol); or to have fled from the shadow of Dol Guldur."
10 According to the author's note given in Note 2 above, Gollum fled into Moria from terror of the
Nazgûl; cf. also the suggestion on p.354 that one of the purposes of the Lord of Morgul in riding on
northward beyond the Gladden was the hope of finding Gollum.
11 These were in fact not very numerous, it would seem; but sufficient to keep any intruders out, if not
better armed or prepared than Balin's company, and not in great numbers. [Author's note.]
12 According to the Dwarves this needed usually the thrust or two; only a very strong Dwarf could open
them single-handed. Before the desertion of Moria doorwards were kept inside the West-gate and one at
least was always there. In this way a single person (and so any intruder or person trying to escape) could
not get out without permission. [Author's note.]
13 In A, Saruman denied knowledge of where the Ring was hid; in B he "denied all knowledge of the land
that they sought." But this is probably no more than a difference of wording.
14 Earlier in this version it is said that Sauron had at this time, by means of the palantíri, at last begun to
daunt Saruman, and could in any case often read his thought even when he withheld information. Thus
Sauron was aware that Saruman had some guess at the place where the Ring was; and Saruman actually
revealed that he had got as his prisoner Gandalf, who knew the most.
15 The entry for the 18
th of September 3018 in the Tale of Years reads: "Gandalf escapes from Orthanc in
the early hours. The Black Riders cross the Fords of Isen." Laconic as this entry is, giving no hint that the
Riders visited Isengard, it seems to be based on the story told in version C.
16 No indication is given in any of these texts of what passed between Sauron and Saruman as a result of
the latter's unmasking.
17 Lobelia Bracegirdle married Otho Sackville-Baggins; their son was Lotho, who seized control of the
Shire at the time of the War of the Ring, and was then known as "the Chief." Farmer Cotton referred in
conversation with Frodo to Lotho's property in leaf-plantations in the Southfarthing (The Return of the
King VI 8).
18 The usual way was by the crossing of Tharbad to Dunland (rather than direct to Isengard), whence
goods were sent more secretly on to Saruman. [Author's note.]
19 Cf. The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A (I, iii. The North-kingdom, and the Dúnedain): "It was at this
time [during the Great Plague that reached Gondor in 1636] that an end came of the Dúnedain of Cardolan,
and evil spirits out of Angmar and Rhudaur entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there."
20 Since the Black Captain knew so much, it is perhaps strange that he had had so little idea of where the
Shire, the land of the Halflings, lay; according to the Tale of Years there were already Hobbits settled in
Bree at the beginning of the fourteenth century of the Third Age, when the Witch-king came north to
Angmar.
21 See The Fellowship of the Ring I, 9. When Strider and the Hobbits left Bree (ibid. I, 11) Frodo caught
a glimpse of the Dunlending ("a sallow face with sly, slanting eyes") in Bill Ferny's house on tin outskirts
of Bree, and thought: "He looks more than half like a goblin."
22 Cf. Gandalf's words at the Council of Elrond: "Their Captain remained in secret away south of Bree."
23 As the concluding sentence of this quotation shows, the meaning is: "Gandalf had as yet no thought that
the Halflings would have in the future any connexion with the Rings." The meeting of the White Council in
2851 took place ninety years before Bilbo found the Ring.
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Thank you for providing us with this very precious insight, Necro. I knew about Gandalf's metaphorical rings of smoke, but I had never got through the details of that moment in the Unfinished Tales, alongside the other aspects concerning the bitterness between the two Istari (with Saruman feeling most of that resentment, of course). You are surely free to make usage of these little pieces, Necro; I can't see any defect in that and our whole work will certainly benefit from these secondary sides of the lore.
As I read those words, the opinion I had been coming up with, in regards of this kind of lore, was greatly reinforced: it's always great to analyse the difference between these successive additions and the rougher lore of the Silmarillion, which, regardless of its brevity and obscurity, kind of constitutes the origin of Tolkien's vision and the main fundamental pillars which his saga is built on. Paramount themes that are regarded as customary and pervasive, given their recurrence in the vastness of the very lore. I therefore suppose we could set the limits of whatever addition, so that those prime principles are not contradicted in any way. For example, I and Fine decided to accept only the earliest version of Galadriel's history (narrated in the Silmarillion), entailing her joining the rebellion of the Noldor for her malice-free longing for power in Middle-earth, surviving the deadly journey through the Helcaraxë and meeting with Celeborn (a Sindarin prince) in Doriath.
The original portrait of the Silmarillion has always fascinated me for a few reasons, the most important of which consisting of the holistic approach of the narration, as it deals with all pivotal topics during the eras of Arda. An ancient, primordial and mythical conception that embodies the generalities of this universe. I thus feel that some late modifications of Tolkien himself or of his own son seem to alter the original essence of the mentioned properties. What do you think about it? I myself am a quite speculative/antiquity-minded person and a kind of law-guy too; henceforth, that explains quite exhaustively why I like to consider the Silmarillion a sort of mythical ensemble of tales, which sets the imperative rules that ought to be taken into account and determines the nature of the whole construction, as a constitution would do for a country ;)
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Now the Shadow grew ever greater, and the hearts of Elrond and Mithrandir darkened. Therefore on a time Mithrandir at great peril went again to Dol Guldur and the pits of the Sorcerer, and he discovered the truth of his fears, and escaped. And returning to Elrond he said:
‘True, alas, is our guess. This is not one of the Úlairi, as many have long supposed. It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering again all the Rings to his hand; and he seeks ever for news of the One, and of the Heirs of Isildur, if they live still on earth.’
And Elrond answered: ‘In the hour that Isildur took the Ring and would not surrender it, this doom was wrought, that Sauron should return.’
‘Yet the One was lost,' said Mithrandir, ‘and while it still lies hid, we can master the Enemy, if we gather our strength and tarry not too long.'
Then the White Council was summoned; and Mithrandir urged them to swift deeds, but Curunír spoke against him, and counselled them to wait yet and to watch.
‘For I believe not,’ said he, ‘that the One will ever be found again in Middle-earth. Into Anduin it fell, and long ago, I deem, it was rolled to the Sea. There it shall lie until the end, when all this world is broken and the deeps are removed.'
Therefore naught was done at that time, though Elrond's heart misgave him, and he said to Mithrandir:
'Nonetheless I forbode that the One will yet be found, and then war will arise again, and in that war this Age will be ended. Indeed in a second darkness it will end, unless some strange chance deliver us that my eyes cannot see.’
'Many are the strange chances of fee world,’ said Mithrandir, 'and help oft shall come from the hands of the weak when the Wise falter.'
J.R.R. Tolkien - The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
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So, having a look at what our 'bible' tells us, we're more or less following the guidelines of the Silmarillion, with the sole exception that Gandalf didn't feel (in our game) to reveal everything he had faced in Dol Guldur to Saruman; even though Galadriel has knowledge of the real state of things, Saruman is thus given the scope for convincing the other guests that the menace might be one of the Nazgûl and for delaying possible immediate counter-measures from the same council.
I therefore believe we should take advantage of this ambiguous scenario of said/unsaid truths that has created among the participants of the assembly (with Gandalf and Galadriel siding with each other, obviously), with the objective of getting each of us to deal with the lost lore of the Rings of Power and to augment the liveliness of the relative debate. In the end, when we deem necessary to end the meeting, Saruman too will have admitted the return of Sauron and will have, though, imposed in the meantime his will to wait and linger.
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As you may have noticed, the White Council is making an inquiry into the lore of the Rings of Power. Galadriel has narrated the brief generalities of the Three; Elrond has told the fate of the Seven. So, according to my plan, Gandalf should thus go forward with the sad story of the Nine and with how their bearers became the deadliest servants/slaves of the Lord of the Rings. At that point, Saruman shall conclude the overview of the Rings of Power by describing the characteristics of the One Ring. It is exactly around the One Ring that the discussion is to get heated, revealing the ambiguous interest of the White Wizard and making the distrust of some of the members really tangible. In itself, the inquiry is a quite significant event, since never before had the Wise discussed about the Rings of Power in such a detailed way.
At the beginning of each explanatory post, don't forget to add these GIFs and to put them at the centre with the proper feature.
(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/groups/1/27/26045/thumb_620x2000/cba1fc74-441d-4200-98f9-ab43d6ddcfe1.gif)
(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/groups/1/27/26045/thumb_620x2000/32b83ad3-c0a5-422d-91b0-50383ff1a832.gif)
Something tells me that Necro will be more than glad to come up with a presentation on the One Ring :D
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I would never rush a contribution to be made for such pivotal matters, but we need Gandalf's overview on the Nine Rings, so that Necro may reach the heart of the debate via the introduction of the One Ring into the inquiry. And that would be the first time in which the Wise deal with Sauron's artefact in a so direct (and preoccupied) of a manner.
If you give me way, I shall momentarily take the role of the Grey Pilgrim.
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I got you covered. Sorry for the delay!
edit: thanks for adding the picture :)
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Many thanks, Fine! We may now continue with the course of the assembly.
EDIT: Never mind ;)
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You are simly too fast for me, Walküre ^^
I just read your post:
''The hour is late, unfortunately. If we are to elaborate a military action, it's imperative that a mobilisation of forces be called now. Too many packs of Orcs lurk among the ruins of Dol Guldur''.
And then I thought: Hey, Gandalf could chime in about that. So I wrote the following:
"I agree, noble Lady," said Gandalf. "We must take action now, before it is too late. The orcish presence stationed at Dol Guldur will only ever grow stronger the longer we wait. Let us call upon our allies and gather a host strong enough to sweep through the Enemy's defences, cleansing this dark place once and for all. We must send word to the Woodland Realm, the inhabitants of the Anduin Vale and maybe even the Riders of Rohan. And of course, the Galadhrim of the Golden Wood will surely aid us, if their Lord and Lady suggest it, I reckon. I shall seek out my old friend Radagast the Brown, for he does not dwell far fraom the Hill of Sorcery and must know of the darkness that lingers there. And when all is ready, we must make our move. Time is short, even for the long-lived Firstborn amongst us! Lady Galadriel is right - the hour is late, and it will grow even later (and thus, darker) if we do not act. Send word to all who would lend their aid in the attack on Dol Guldur, and send it now. That is my advice."
When I wanted to submit that, I got the message that a new post had since been written. So I guess my text does not really fit right now...
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I apologise. I thought I could have Gandalf add a little piece to the discussion, so that I was able to follow a precise course of events. My idea was that, given that the council had just finished its inquiry into the Rings of Power, Gandalf would then remind everyone of the threat of the One Ring still existing in Middle-earth. Fact that links to the erstwhile debate about the Ring, reinforces the need for an attack to be launched and increases Saruman's irritation. The meeting is exactly supposed to get heated around the One Ring and the chief's reluctance to act (and we know why). Saruman is to show his evident and suspicious interest in the One.
There's no problem though. I will add a remark from Galadriel, just to connect to what you wanted to write. Then, that text of yours will be simply included in the exchange.
Sorry for the rapid development, but I was particularly inspired xD
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No worries; who am I to stand in the way of poetic inspiration?
I am glad though that my post is now not entirely in vain. :)
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Since I would never force anyone to make a contribution, because each contribution should come from sincere inspiration, if you give me consent, I would politely ask permission to play Gandalf and Saruman to have the council continue. I am obviously to base those characters' words on lore-accurate facts and on the style you have chosen so far. This is just to know if I may take things in my hands, should a hiatus occur or if I would like the story to take a defined course. I'm of course planning to add more elements to the narration, yet minor, if compared to the main structure of the very thread.
As I know how daunting RPG-writing could be, I would really like to know your opinion. If there are aspects you don't deem proper, don't forget that it is always possible to go back and rewrite :)
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Sure, go ahead. :)
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Thank for your consent. The debate of the council will thus continue. I will notify you all, should important happenings take place in the story, so much relevant that your counsel is needed.
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''[...]Yes, the Ruling Ring is no more, his destiny having being ended along the shores of the Gladden Fields. The territories you much longed to have under your rule, Elven Queen, but that you then failed to retain. That I would really name a vain attempt.''
SAVAGE :D
What do you think about the debate getting really heated and personal, at times? I think it's a very smart way to make the reader realise that there is personal resentment between Saruman and Galadriel. It often occurs that cold and frank judgements mix with personal bitterness.
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As it's predictable to imagine, the meeting of the White Council is to come to an end. What I have in mind is to mirror the actual lore, which comprises a very iconic moment: as the general discussion continues, Gandalf senses how all is to bode and gives up trying to reason with Saruman's intransigent stance on issues. He then sits apart from the other guests and starts creating rings of smoke with the pipe-weed gifted by the Hobbits.
Saruman views the gesture as offensive and mocks his fellow Istar for his acquaintance of the Shire. Moreover, the White Wizard feels secretively that he's been deliberately provoked, as Gandalf had afterwards mimicked a person who was striving spasmodically to grab those immaterial rings of ashes. Saruman therefore wonders whether the Grey Pilgrim is aware of his own longing for the One Ring; fact that had been made quite evident by the continuous references to the lost lore of said artefacts. The climate thus worsens, although the assembly is nonetheless destined to get to grips with the growing threat of Sauron.
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As it is very predictable to imagine, the second meeting of the White Council is to end very soon, after the Lady of Light will have talked to Gandalf in a sort of last address. Then, the third meeting is planned to be held a century later (more or less, if I remember), during the quest of the Hobbit.
Caught by surprise by the unexpected outcome of things, and very fast too, the White Wizard retracts his previous statements and requests that an assault be launched against Dol Guldur, as he really wished to prevent Sauron from conducting additional inspections along the shores of the river, where they both know that the One Ring was lost. This meeting is also supposed to build up the whole momentum of the actual strike against the fortress. And it is an event that will surely be explored in the most thorough manner, I can guarantee ;)
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The new chapter of the RPG is to start with the choir of Lothlórien singing the coming of shadows in the world, predicting that a battle will take place between the White Council and this new enemy. Enemy who new is not, really.
The chanting will reflect Galadriel's divination and the awareness that the very conflict will not end the war nor resolve the issue at its root. Sauron has paved his way into the present once again, ready to assemble all the forces at his disposal for the real definitive war, whose verdict is destined to change the fate of anyone dwelling in Middle-earth.
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Before the next meeting of the White Council has beginning, where the Wise arrange and plan to attack Sauron, I will indulge in another digression in which Saruman gets to discover that the mysterious Necromancer of Dol Guldur (whose identity is no longer that mysterious) has started conducting inspections along the river flowing across the Gladden Fields. This is the place where Isildur found a very sad death, betrayed by the One Ring to which he felt so much tied. Sauron is therefore well informed about the king's demise and about what may have happened to his precious Ring: lost in the waters of the river.
This naturally wakes Saruman's doubts and fear, for his rival could have preceded him and regained what he had been deprived of. Needless to say, it is well enough to trigger the most direct of the responses, convincing him that the near presence of the Dark Lord has really become quite menacing for the wizard's own plans.
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The current digression before the start of the next meeting of the council (the last one of our story) has now ended for the good. It means that the mentioned summit of the Wise will commence soon and that is to be the decisive occasion where Saruman orders that an attack against Sauron be immediately launched. Only, a just question might arise: in which aspect will this meeting differ from the interpretation of the Hobbit films?
Well, things have gone differently in our story. As it's clear to see and understand, such difference is to reflect on the next episode too. Contrary to the plot of the Hobbit trilogy, it is Saruman who himself summons his noble fellows and stoutly advocates the assault on the fortress, knowing that he would surely captivate the consensus of the others (who always had doubted the doing of the Dark Lord along those dreary woods). Another stark difference consists of the fact that the very strike is already planned and everyone is well aware of the real identity of the haunting presence in Mirkwood, without the need for Gandalf to adventure inside Dol Guldur. This has already taken place in earlier passages of the story. Furthermore, speaking about Thorin and his enterprise, Saruman is not at all doubtful of the propriety of the Dwarves' quest; he even welcomes the opportunity with open arms, seeking to use the dwarf-fellowship as a decoy to move Sauron's army away from the fortress. The very White Wizard then justifies his choice with the will to prevent the Enemy from assisting Smaug and vice versa, thus opting for a diversion, in order to leave Dol Guldur basically unkept and defenceless. This seemingly reasonable strategy will also serve him well to conceal and disguise his true intent, because he cannot reveal the actual cause of such sudden change of action: to bar the access to the Gladden Fields and forbid Sauron to conduct other inspections about the river course.