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[en] Edain Mod => [Edain] Suggestions => [Edain] Gondor Suggestions => Thema gestartet von: dkbluewizard am 16. Dez 2016, 14:51

Titel: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 16. Dez 2016, 14:51
If I was to implement a system for Gandalf, I would do the same as Alatar. I would have his three stances, (Defense = Magic Bubble, Standard = Staff, and Aggressive = Glamdring).

Magic Bubble Gandalf has his magic bubble on and functions like BFME1 Gandalf (he can't be knocked back in this stance). The rest of his powers would be filled with the Dwarf summon powers, Narya, and a Heal like he did for Thorin/Pippin in the movies.

The aggressive stance would have a passive picture of Glamdring, and function like Anduriel or Orcrist for Thorin/Aragorn in one of the powers. Gandalf's powers would be more aggressive and faster in this stance. Such as sending a boulder rolling at enemies, summoning an eagle strike like radagast, and a power reset like WK (Your staff is broken).

The standard can be just regular Gandalf.

Hey, they're changing Galadriel to be more canonical, why not the G-man?

Also, I have heard that "OMG, balance, complex, not needed, etc." Look, ET is in the process of changing Galadriel and Cirdan to be more canonical and it is only fair that Gandalf be more canonical as well. People saying it is too complex are wrong given that micromanagment has always been a crucial part of gameplay, and balance, the wizards powers are weaker anyways, so a little extra abilities wouldn't make that much of a difference to Gandalf's role/function anyways.

Anyhow, tell me what you think and I'll do a Sauron 3rd stance topic later on. Thank you.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: Julio229 am 16. Dez 2016, 23:03
I can only agree with this suggestion! It helps making Gandalf more interesting to use, while keeping his powers from the original games, and giving him new ones!
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: Walküre am 16. Dez 2016, 23:52
Hi Blue! Thank you for having brought your suggestions here, in the official forum. Even though our opinions may differ, this topic could be an interesting occasion to discuss and maybe even to come up with a final compromise/concept. Let's see how the thread is developed.

As I anticipated at the beginning, my personal opinions differ consistently from yours here, speaking about Gandalf. Without embarking on long disquisitions, I will address the major problematics and relevant aspects. Given the own particularities of the hero involved, I'm not in favour of any significant change regarding Gandalf; that is, very little is to be overhauled when we deal with conceptual abilities or his very role. Whenever similar proposals were presented, I and the other Moderators always followed a precise line, with which I obviously and thoroughly agree.

Gandalf's concept has been extremely iconic since the very first chapter of the BFME series. The embodiment of the hegemonic hero by definition: sensational abilities combined with a very effective role in the faction. Powers that perfectly match with his mass-slayer nature. Thus it follows that there is not much left to add to his phenomenal concept, even in the multicoloured universe of the Edain Mod. I would say it's quite imperative that his current concept (and characterisation) be maintained as it is now (simple yet enough unique and effective), lest superfluous things be implemented without taking into consideration the ever-present boundaries of the game. Not because it's absolutely forbidden to propose new ideas, but rather for the fact that all the previously-mentioned premises suggest not to proceed that way.

Furthermore, I will also tell you why I think a stance system would be logical for heroes as Sauron and Galadriel, but not when it comes to Gandalf. Contrary to the Dark Lord and the Lady of Light, the Grey Wizard is one of the most active heroes in the game; he's therefore meant to battle with enemies directly in the frontline, and so his dynamic role well justifies the presence of such mighty abilities (just think about Word of Power). On the other hand, Sauron and Galadriel rely (as leaders) on supportive properties, with the purpose of supporting their troops and structures (their respective realms) from afar; it's then in this particular context that I agree that they could have the possibility to shift momentarily to a more aggressive characterisation (a stance that enables multiple new abilities). But on Gandalf's side, I don't personally see any viable scope for creating a digression from his paramount dynamic nature, as all his abilities already suffice to make him unique and conceptually complete.

But I can't deny that the Narya issue is something that has been puzzling me for quite some time; your proposal is thus quite tempting under that aspect. One side of me respects the customary proposition that wants Círdan to wield the Ring of Fire in the game (so that all the Three are available only to the two Elven factions), while the other just kicks against the idea of taking Narya away from his true owner during the War of the Ring: Mithrandir. Also, I always expressed myself in favour of particular stance systems for the greatest heroes of each faction; if not a structured system, at least a smart feature. Said that, I think we could try to come up with possible alternatives that imply the return of Narya to Gandalf (as the lore would demand) or other clever mechanics, provided that they strictly occupy a secondary position in the hero's concept.

Concerning Gandalf's current performance in the game, it's fair to say that most of the complaints I read are mainly focused on his abilities' effectiveness, instead of his conceptual properties. The fixing of the bug that affected the scaling of Magic improved things a bit, but I too admit it's still not enough. Henceforth, as I already replied to akin questions, there is something you ought to know: in the forthcoming 4.5 patch, Gandalf will be given a boost and so he will kind of retrieve his past formidable potential we are all fond of. I can't reveal much more, but may you be sure that a lot will change in this perspective as well (I tested it myself).

Zitat von: dkbluewizard am 16. Dez 2016, 14:51
Hey, they're changing Galadriel to be more canonical, why not the G-man?

Also, I have heard that "OMG, balance, complex, not needed, etc." Look, ET is in the process of changing Galadriel and Cirdan to be more canonical and it is only fair that Gandalf be more canonical as well.

A just clarification: that concept of Galadriel is a proper concept/proposal of mine. The Edain Team has never stated anything official about it, nor do I know whether the proposal has been accepted or rejected (or if they are still pondering what to do). It's thus incorrect to state that they are going to implement those suggestions, even if you don't imagine how I wish they did. The only thing we can do for now is continuing to support it in every way possible. Nevertheless, I'm grateful that you deem it worthy of being compared to Sauron (I exactly thought about him in the conceiving of the ideas) or to Gandalf  ;)
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 17. Dez 2016, 02:40
To Diewalkure,

Thank you for your kind post. I am glad we always seem to meet and have educated and classy discussions.

With that stated, I don't argue against the charge of Gandalf being a mass slayer, yes he is very good at this and has already fulfilled that role. However, as you stated, my stance system does fix the problem of Narya being implemented to his character. Gandalf per the lore is not just a mass slayer, but he is also a building destroyer, and hero killer. Examples of this are shown with him using fireworks on enemies, destroying bridges, and slaying Balrog of Moria and Great Goblin.

I am not asking for Gandalf to be all powerful. I could have said "Make him more lore worthy when he is the White, make it so that no physical weapon can harm him." I am not saying you're accusing me of such words, but I am wanting to see more lore bases--and really, something new for Gandalf that is complimentary to his Maiar abilities. As it stands, I feel he is just an old wizard from the Hobbit and not the Maia canonical being that we all know and love.

I mean, I guess we could have Cirdan give the ring to Gandalf, but then how does that work for the Gondor faction? Also, giving Narya to Gandalf would have to reset his powers to something different anyways.

So to incorporate the lore, movie, and game--I feel the stance system compliments the essence of Gandalf's character in its entirety without taking away his mass slayer role.

Like you said, I loved your Galadriel proposal and I will do the same for Sauron. I mean lets be honest, Galadriel, Saruman, Gandalf, and Sauron are the most powerful beings of the Third Age, I think a little versatility in powers isn't that much of a big deal for coders.

If this system is too complex, then why not allow him to switch powers by mounting his  firework cart, then maybe some of the powers and Narya could be implemented into that. Only thing though, I feel the firework cart would look kind of dorky in Edain mod.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 17. Dez 2016, 11:16
At the moment Gandalf seems to be lacking 2 facets in my view, the 'bubble' he deploys in Fellowship of the Ring, and Narya. Firstly I would not want Cirdan to lose the ring, as he did have it.
Secondly I oppose a three stance system, as I feel that would lead to abilities for the sake of taking up a slot; and overlap. The problem with your 3 stance proposal is to me it causes massive overlap with the spellbook (Such as the Eagles) and it makes Gandalf into someone who can do anything; and takes away from the fact heroes are intended to have roles, and this is a concession that must be made for gameplay in the base mod; submods can afford to offer more complexity as new users won't see them, and they do not affect the balance of the main mod. In addition it then seems unfair that if Gandalf gets more than one stance, why doesn't Sauroman, why not Elrond, why not the Angmar Witch-King and hence the line has to be drawn somewhere.
 I think at best, rather than changing the stance give him an expanded ability set, by that I mean one of the slots is an arrow. Have him unlock Narya at level 2, move lighting sword to level 3, and grant him the bubble at level 5 as a toggle ability (He could always have it on), he can always have the bubble on but the toggle has a cooldown. He moves slower but has higher defence.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: Gandalf7000 am 17. Dez 2016, 14:59
Zitat von: lordoflinks am 17. Dez 2016, 11:16
At the moment Gandalf seems to be lacking 2 facets in my view, the 'bubble' he deploys in Fellowship of the Ring, and Narya. Firstly I would not want Cirdan to lose the ring, as he did have it.
Secondly I oppose a three stance system, as I feel that would lead to abilities for the sake of taking up a slot; and overlap. The problem with your 3 stance proposal is to me it causes massive overlap with the spellbook (Such as the Eagles) and it makes Gandalf into someone who can do anything; and takes away from the fact heroes are intended to have roles, and this is a concession that must be made for gameplay in the base mod; submods can afford to offer more complexity as new users won't see them, and they do not affect the balance of the main mod. In addition it then seems unfair that if Gandalf gets more than one stance, why doesn't Sauroman, why not Elrond, why not the Angmar Witch-King and hence the line has to be drawn somewhere.
 I think at best, rather than changing the stance give him an expanded ability set, by that I mean one of the slots is an arrow. Have him unlock Narya at level 2, move lighting sword to level 3, and grant him the bubble at level 5 as a toggle ability (He could always have it on), he can always have the bubble on but the toggle has a cooldown. He moves slower but has higher defence.
This is a good suggestion. I also think that all faction leaders should have additional troop/building supportive ability.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 17. Dez 2016, 15:44
To Lordoflinks and Gandalf7000,

I understand that you guys feel that this is unfair to other heroes, but let us not forget the Mouth of Sauron, Mordor Witch King, and Sauron himself with Power of Ages past all have differing stances/abilities that don't overpower them or change their role in Edain mod. This has to be done for Gandalf as he is the most important good character in the fight against Sauron.

I don't necessarily disagree with the fact that all Ringheroes should have more than one slot ability. I actually would be open to Gandalf having one ability that is an arrow to another set of abilities. If the stances themselves are bugging you, then I would go with your suggestion of the arrow.

We are all in agreement here, Gandalf needs Narya as that is canonical, and he needs something more since he is the greatest good in middle earth during the Third Age, heck, he did wrestle with the Dark Lord (Sauron) at Amon Hen and succeeded in protecting Frodo.

So we need something new, be it the stance system, an arrow with another set of powers like MOS, WK, or Sauron Ancient Powered--it is needed and the Edain Team should take this into consideration.

Now how do we get this suggestion some notoriety?
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: Walküre am 17. Dez 2016, 23:40
Zitat von: dkbluewizard am 17. Dez 2016, 02:40
Thank you for your kind post. I am glad we always seem to meet and have educated and classy discussions.

I'm very glad to discuss with you equally. This is what Modding Union is all about.

Ok, I read all the contributions presented so far and may I also thank you again for expressing your personal opinions on the matter. Gandalf seems to be a quite complete character in itself, but it's always great to know that he often manages to attract a lot of attention from the Community; he's one of the most iconic characters of LOTR, and so I perfectly understand why many people are concerned about his overall performance.

Let's start with saying that I can see the purposes and the intent of having him be more unique than he currently is, but we have to get to grips with the actual state of things: Gandalf is a tough topic to deal with in the first place. Just to follow in the footsteps of the comparison we made between him and heroes like Sauron and Galadriel, I would like to explain myself more properly. The point is that Sauron and Galadriel are the true leaders of their respective factions: they are at the centre of all (Sauron, in particular) and have the absolute duty to support their whole realm; thus, here it is the right ground around which I find it legitimate to ask for more versatility and uniqueness, considering also that they are mainly endowed with supportive properties.

On the other hand, Gandalf is a kind of exception. He does stand in Gondor as the mightiest hero of all, but the interesting aspect is that he's not the leader (military and authoritative leadership) of his faction and he can't consequently dispose of supportive abilities (his role is fixed). I'm not at all questioning this type of characterisation, as it shows well his lore-accurate pilgrim-like connotation; a powerful wizard that wanders throughout Middle-earth and offers his help to whom he visits. What I want to point out is that these exact elements inevitably force us to operate within clear boundaries. I will also try to summarise other significant arguments we should have in mind very carefully.

1. Gandalf's role is fixed and it is the one of a mass-slayer. His formidable abilities already serve well for that goal and are already very much unique.
2. Adding to the previous point, his concept has been kept the same since BFME1. It remained unaltered because it's extremely iconic.
3. Gondor's Gandalf is the Gandalf of the War of the Ring, thus leaving aside concepts or other aspects from the Hobbit trilogy (his Hobbit-like connotation is present via the Dwarven spellbook).
4. Given his greatly dynamic power, I think we could do without the idea of an aggressive stance or of a regular one. This would lead us directly and solely towards defence.

Said that, I eventually believe that the only possibility to add something new is centred around Narya only. Gandalf will gain back the Ring of Fire (thus making each of the Three available in three different factions). Beside the adherence to the lore (which I obviously cherish very much), Narya would help us a lot in regards of the fourth argument I listed above: since Narya is the Ring of endurance and resilience, it can be easily linked to defence. Contrary to Vilya and Nenya, which grant extraordinary powers over vast lands, Narya is more bound to a personal scale (the personal strength of its bearer). I view this as a solid ground to start from. Then, speaking about the very implementation of such feature, I would suggest the current sixth slot of Gandalf's Palantír of powers (now used for the normal stances) be replaced with Narya. I thought about two different options so far.


(http://i.imgur.com/I5wA4tp.jpg)

This is really a first draft of mine. I still need to know how his magical shield functions exactly (in the current version of the game) and we will surely have to go a bit more into details, but I like how the debate has progressed. I know that some of you might expect more, but I sincerely find this a very just compromise that complies with the premises stated in the previous passages of this post. Moreover, I guess we should also come up with a different proposal that envisages Gandalf's turning into Gandalf the White: how should Narya change in that perspective? Feel free to forward your own opinions.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 18. Dez 2016, 00:14
I agree a thousand times with DieWalküre's proposal of linking Narya to the bubble shield. Could Wizard Blast be made into a ranged attack, while still keeping the sword as a melee attack, to free the level one slot for this ability? 
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 18. Dez 2016, 01:21
To Diewalkure and LordofLinks

I like the proposal so far, we needed something new, I don't see an error though coming up with Gandalf the White power. Narya can remain with his upgraded form. I can get behind this without asking for fireworks on one condition, Glamdring be a passive power as well +50% Passive damage (Like Orcrist or Anduriel) but can be clicked on to do the lightning sword.

I think the Narya bubble, and the passive Glamdring ability enhance Gandalf enough to warrant the purchasing of him and that would allow us to keep all the powers as is, it would give us something new, and Gandalf would feel like his BFME 1 persona.

I see this as becoming a really good discussion and I think we have all come a long way. Is anyone still interested in his firework cart being an additional mount choice?
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: Walküre am 18. Dez 2016, 02:23
I don't think it's possible to have an ability be passive and active at the same time. I guess Lightning Sword already gives the sense of Glamdring's might; apart from that, as I pointed out earlier, his abilities are enough effective and so I wouldn't add anything more in respect of offensive aspects.

Zitat von: dkbluewizard am 18. Dez 2016, 01:21
Is anyone still interested in his firework cart being an additional mount choice?

Albeit being lore/film-accurate, I think it would be very out-of-place, were it to be inserted in the actual game.

P.S. I will move this proposal to the Gondor Suggestions board in due time, as that is the proper place.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 18. Dez 2016, 02:42
Diewalkure, that sounds good. However, I do think you can have a passive and active power at the same time, Aragorn when he is crowned king gets Anduriel and it does passive and when clicked on it does a blademaster.

I feel if this simple addition was added to Gandalf while not taking away his lightning sword. I think he would be perfect. He wouldn't be that powerful still anyways. Sauron would still destroy him and so would Saruman.

Gandalf the White however, should be the most dangerous on the battlefield outside of Sauron himself. And I feel Sauron is the best hero in the game (as Edain Wiki suggests) but I do feel Gandalf the White should be number 2. I mean I like the blue wizards obviously, but I know lore wise this is the way things are in the books.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 18. Dez 2016, 03:11
Most dangerous with abilities that is, then the Witch-King can come along and break Gandalf's staff with his hour.  :D
To summerise would it be fair to say the conclusions of this thread are thus:
Make wizard blast into a ranged attack and have Narya (Passive)/ Bubble (Active) as the level 1 ability and the Lighting Sword ability into a passive/ active ability as well.
If we were to follow suite with the above I would be favour of switching Mount and the Sword around so the player does not get two active/passive abilities in a row.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 18. Dez 2016, 06:42
Is wizard blast going to be a ranged attack for all wizards or just Gandalf? I don't think Gandalf the Grey's wizard blast should be ranged, but Gandalf the WHITE should have a ranged wizard's blast since that is what he did to Saruman.

Yeah, the WK breaking Gandalf's staff was never in the book. If we were to incorporate all the powers of Gandalf from the book, you would need a system like I originally suggested (which I would still be fine with as I don't think it would change his role. I mean Sauron's role isn't changed).

But to please you guys mainly, I conceded to at least Narya being passive/active, and Glamdring being passive/active. I would agree with this, and I would agree with a long ranged wizard blast for Gandalf the White (It also kinda shows how Gandalf the White wrestled with Sauron at Amon Hen).
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 18. Dez 2016, 07:42
I meant the WK statement as a joke, but also to point out the more aggressive abilities a hero has they more they become dependant on them for the sake of balance, and as such the WK is a hard counter to one such hero. I do think the moment in the movie was a wonderful scene that heightened suspense, and made Gandalf appear less all powerful. 
I am just trying to figure out a way to have all of Gandalf's abilities on one planetir without the need for 'arrow' abilities.
Perhaps a stance system could be used, that toggles his attack between a wizard blast (Saruman's basic attack) and his sword. Not changing his abilities (He could still use lighting sword in staff mode), but allowing him to alternate between slow wizard blasts that kill a lot of enemies and inflict bonus damage on buildings, or fast sword attacks that deal damage to a single target.
EDIT: I've just seen that DieWalküre has mentioned we can replace the stance slot with Narya, which allows us to keep Wizard Blast as an ability, so that would work best, in my opinion.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 18. Dez 2016, 08:02
LordofLinks, yes that is what Diewalkure and I were saying. We hoped the stance change would be replaced with Narya passive/bubble active power, and Glamdring be a passive/lightning sword ability. If these two were implemented, Gandalf's role wouldn't change and he would have the feel of something new!
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 18. Dez 2016, 08:34
I apologise for the misunderstanding. I think now would be a good time to put together a formal proposal, and I shall leave that to people who have a better idea of what is going on as clearly I can't read  :D
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 18. Dez 2016, 11:26
Are you 100% sure, Gandalf doesn't already have the bubble. Because he had in previous versions (it was an automated ability that triggered if Gandalf took more than a certain amount of damage in one instance).
Furthermore, I could write extensively why I don't like things like random stance systems and that in gameplay terms, historical accuracy doesn't exist while being a hero who's all over the place, i.e. a mess, does. But that is not really important.

The thing is, Gandalf proposals are not new, and many of them boiled down to the idea of expanding Gandalf's array of spells to the facets, he as a character had and which aren't represented in the game. Long story short: There was not a single change, in fact Gandalf got changed back to his of BfME roster of spells. Seriously though, there is a reason why Ealendril's avatar is Gandalf. ;)

My last point is basically, that this whole "make everything canonical" is basically an idea, destroying it's own goal: A BfME game that is truely canonical would above all else be the epitome of boring and strangely quite uninspired, too. Iconic heroes like Galadriel and Sauron would probably be fortress upgrades, funny (and gamelaywise extremely interesting) stuff like "Power of Past Ages" as well as even the fact that Imladris fight in the War of the Ring at all needed to be removed. What I'm trying to say, is that this "canonising" completely screws over the game. (And in fact already has at some points, where fairly unique, yet, let's say, too "colourfull" or "silly" concepts or units where (practically) removed.)
Thus, I'm quite content with the current Gandalf, I can only repeat myself and add, that the only change, I see happening, is to add a buttonless ability that gives a minor bonus, like fear resistance to surrounding troops.


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: Sorry for any typos, I wrote this on a mobile phone.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 18. Dez 2016, 12:22
I feel like Gandalf the Grey was more of the wanderer who'd need extra protection from the dangers of Middle Earth while Gandalf the White was usually with other people who he inspired. Maybe the bubble shield could be for Grey and would temporarily give bonus armour and knockback resistance. When he becomes White, the armour bonus is replaced with some sort of temporary buff to surrounding units to symbolise how Narya inspired people.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: Slawek56703 am 18. Dez 2016, 13:52
I can see Gandalf with Narya stances to show that he is send to this world to help people of Middle Earth win over Sauron but i have diffrent idea from Edain 3 Hero Submod Gandalf had there Narya power that buffed others when he ecome White it was improved and he could even  join powers of The One Ring and Narya  on his Ring forms . I show my idea concidering stances and Narya .

Gandalf Grey

Defence Stance : Additional troops on medium range get 15% armor
Standart Stance: troops get 75% immunity to Fire and Magic attacks
Agressive Stance: Additional troops on medium range get 15% damage

Gandalf White

Defence Stance : Additional troops on medium range get 15% armor
Standart Stance: troops get 75% immunity to Fire and Magic attacks + fear and Terror resistance
Agressive Stance: Additional troops on medium range get 15% damage
 
Gandalf Challenge Master

Defence Stance : Additional troops on big range get 30% armor
Standart Stance: troops and heroes get 100% immunity to Fire and Magic attacks + fear and Terror resistance + heals them all time
Agressive Stance: Additional troops on big range get 30% damage

Gandalf Corrupted

Defence Stance : Additional Enemy troops on big range loose 30% armor
Standart Stance: enemy troops and heroes loose leardership on big range + they are 100% more vulnerable to Fire and Magic attacks, fear and Terror  + get ittle damaged near Gandalf
Agressive Stance: Additional troops on big range loose 30% damage




 
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 18. Dez 2016, 16:41
Slawek56703, that is actually a very interesting idea for Gandalf and shows his role. I would expand the stance system to not only include troops, but Gandalf himself. I think if those stances with the passive Glamdring/active Lightning Sword, would be great additions to Gandalf.

Melkor Bauglir, Edain has gotten most the canon right in this mod. I don't necessarily think that going by the canon would be boring as that is what Edain has consistently (for the most part) done for many of the characters. This is why they had to change things around sometimes.

I think you are going a little extreme saying that "Power of Ages Past" would have to be removed, as Sauron could take a physical form in the third age. See the letter from Tolkien or his interview on what would happen had the nazgul reached Frodo in Mount Doom. Also Gollum saw his black hand which only had four fingers on it--and Galadriel went out and fought (example bringing down the walls of Dol Gulder). So I think the canon does not "screw over the game." It enhances it.

I am proud of how attention to detail Edain is, and that is why I seek something new for Gandalf, as he is missing some crucial parts to his character. Like I said before to Diewalkure, my goal is not to make Gandalf dominate the game. If I wanted that I would have asked for him to be immune to all physical harm like in the books.

If we are counting gameplay and how Gandalf is in the cinema/books he is missing: A bonus from Glamdring (best sword of the third age), Narya (one of the best rings of the Third Age), he's missing a healing power (did this on Lord of the Eagles in book, he did this on Thorin and Pippin in the movie), firework powers (I guess one could say this is covered in the Erebor faction though), etc.

So there are many things left out that are crucial to Gandalf's character. Namely Narya and Glamdring are the most important that is why I advocate for those. It is explicit in the novel and movies that those two items are what make Gandalf special as he was the wander, the one that stay true to his purpose. That is why his Lightning Sword needs a passive ability and he needs Narya somehow. That is why Diewalkure and I are in agreement on this. If these two things came to fruition, Gandalf's character would be completed. We are not asking him to become the most OP character ever, that is reserved for Sauron.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 18. Dez 2016, 16:56
Well, I see most (not all!) things differently. I also do not really see the point in arguing about this; since we start from different axioms, we can't logically agree. Therefore good luck in designing Gandalf, Slawek56703's ideas actually didn't sound that bad. ;)

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 18. Dez 2016, 18:26
Well I think we can come to a consensus.

Gandalf needs a boost for Glamdring and Narya. So lets run with Slawek56703's ideas.

The stance icon can be Narya and it can be used as he said. The Lightning Sword could remain the same and have a +50% damage boost (passive) to Gandalf. I think this is the best option.

Personally, since Glamdring was wielded by Turgon and was probably the best sword of the Third Age (it kills Balrogs). I honestly feel it should do 100% damage, but I feel that would not balance the game. That is why I say 50% same as Anduriel.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: Walküre am 18. Dez 2016, 19:00
Hi Melkor, it's great to hear from you again.

Zitat von: Melkor Bauglir am 18. Dez 2016, 11:26
The thing is, Gandalf proposals are not new, and many of them boiled down to the idea of expanding Gandalf's array of spells to the facets, he as a character had and which aren't represented in the game. Long story short: There was not a single change, in fact Gandalf got changed back to his of BfME roster of spells. Seriously though, there is a reason why Ealendril's avatar is Gandalf. ;)

Of course, I'm IMMENSELY aware of the colossal responsibility of proposing any change regarding Ealendril's favourite character  :D

No, really, I myself closed similar topics in the past, as some users had asked for radical replacements of Gandalf's abilities or even suggested he be moved to other factions. I think we all agree that his concept is already well conceived and ought to remain unaltered as it has always done since BFME1. But I strongly believe that Narya and that sixth slot at the top of his Palantír offer us the right ground to develop our suggestions, due to the fact that the two aspects entrench each other deeply; the hero would thus be granted a new and clever feature, without disrupting anything that was and has always been. I will nonetheless keep on trying to maintain the ideas as balanced and respectful of the game's boundaries as possible. Gandalf's five effective abilities are still absolutely paramount. Yet I find this occasion a just occasion to make an attempt, taking also into account the arguments provided by the lore and by the reasonings we have made so far. Just to give a proper transposition in German: der richtige Grund und der richtige Fall  ;)

Yes, I think the magical-barrier mechanism of Gandalf is already implemented in the game via an automatic process. Bearing in mind that we could always focus on other types of defensive displays or on the hope-infusing nature of Narya even more, tying that mechanism to a 'manual' choice might be interesting anyway. Regardless of our differing opinions, I hope you'll continue to participate in the suggesting phase too.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: Garlodur am 1. Jan 2017, 23:39
I would like to share my ideas on the structure that DieWalküre started here. This contribution expands the influence of Narya, the Ring of Fire, in Gandalf's arsenal, or at least aims to make it more explicit.


I believe that all Gandalf is lacking at this moment in gameplay is a sort of supporting role. I do not intend to attribute this role to such extent that the division of leaderships in Gondor/Arnor is compromised. Therefore I see Slawek56703's stance system too complicated and overwhelming and would require more balancing over the width of said factions.  Wizards in the universe of Middle-Earth are supposed to have a guiding role as such that they try to influence its principal inhabitants and important actors to act one way or another, with the goal of fighting Sauron. Think of Thorin, Bilbo, Frodo, Theoden, Denethor, Aragorn, and I could continue forever. Other wizards slacked in this role, but there are sufficient arguments to how Gandalf played his part exactly so (the most important being his return as Gandalf the White when he lost his physical form of Gandalf the Grey).

My point is that Gandalf has influenced Middle-Earth more indirectly than directly as his current role as mass-slayer suggest. In addition I believe this is where we can implement Narya as well in his concept. I am not asking here for a large revamp of his abilities but rather something that streamlines his existing character interpretation to a slight supportive aspect. I am of the belief that Gandalf's use of Narya was very much in line with his inherent magical capacities and personality, meaning that he drew no great power from the Ring of Fire other than using it for preserving Middle-Earth. Arguably, this is what the Elven Rings were made for, in order for the Elves to recreate Valinor in Middle/Earth.


In this interpretation I would like to continue on DieWalküre's suggestion, in order to give Narya a minor role in supporting mostly units (perhaps heroes too). I think the stances slot at the top of the Palantír would be the most fitting place because Gandalf makes use of magic in either a defensive or offensive sense, although the slot would be used like an ability rather than a stance (if technically possible).


As such, the ability is scaled and becomes more powerful with levels: it retains the passive effect at all levels, while the active switch is only implemented at level 5 and further improved at level 10. When the ability is activated, the passive function does not work for its duration, or during the cooldown. This way the ability is not too powerful at level 1, and links its usefulness to either a defensive or offensive situation, simulating the power of the Ring of Fire at different tactical moments in battle.

In terms of balance of supportive powers this ability has, I see that fear resistance is not unique in the Gondor faction with Faramir and Aragorn, or in Arnor with Arvedui and Araphant. Thus, a temporary implementation would suit best Gandalf's efforts in defending Minas Tirith at one point, but not taking over the role of most outstanding leader in the faction. The increased resistance to magic damage is a valuable addition that can be attributed to Gandalf alone, being a wizard amongst a faction of Men. Then again, Gondor is at a disadvantage against evil factions that have tons of debuffs before dealing pure magic damage: now Gondor has an answer to those moments of overwhelming strength. Concerning the passive, I would suggest a description to be written so that people know under which conditions this 'bubble shield' is activated, for as of now it is not very clear.

With regards to other versions of Gandalf: when the Grey turns into the White, nothing changes apart from the current magic damage increase and reduced ability cooldown (which also affects the proposed ability change). There would be some changes to the Corrupted Gandalf, such as increased fire resistance for nearby friendlies when the proposed ability is activated so that his indiscriminate rage is contained in terms of 'friendly fire'. Gandalf te Challenge Master however, incorporates a leadership of healing aura to nearby friendlies and heroes in the passive function of the proposed ability, and upon activation the magic resistance is further increased. These are still small suggestions I could edit into making the whole ability a passive leadership skill that at all times incorporates the combined power of the Ring of Fire and the One Ring, with the particular 'hidden' abilities that Gandalf the Corrupted and Gandalf the Challenge Master have at their disposal.

I hope this concept was suggestive and clear enough, as many points are being addressed. I would gladly clear up any uncertainties or answer questions.

Thanks for reading,
Garlodur

Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 2. Jan 2017, 03:20
So I guess everyone cares about Narya but not Glamdring, weird...
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 2. Jan 2017, 08:15
Zitat von: dkbluewizard am  2. Jan 2017, 03:20
So I guess everyone cares about Narya but not Glamdring, weird...
I think it is because in the Gondor fraction, seeing as it is set in the wotr, he already has it. Personally I am in favour of it being an ability for Arnor, at least.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 2. Jan 2017, 18:47
No I am saying that the Lightning Sword should have a +50% damage boost passively (like Aragorn's Anduriel) I feel that doesn't change Gandalf's character at all, and makes him more canoncial, I mean he literally has the same abilities. I also feel Thorin should get a passive +50% damage bonus when he acquires Orcrist on his Exiled King Passive abilitiy.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: Garlodur am 2. Jan 2017, 22:53
Look dkbluewizard, the thing is that what you call the issue of Glamdring is not an issue in the Edain Mod currently. As lordoflinks says, Gandalf in the time of the War of the Ring has Glamdring at his disposal at all times. Yes, in the Arnor faction linked to Gondor this proves as a bit of a problem, being not in the correct time period (you could imagine the sword he carries to be a regular sword though, if that comforts you). However, until there is a concept sufficiently established among a large part of the community that convinces the entire ET that has always opposed changes to Gandalf (for reasons often enough noted), this Glamdring issue will not be solved.

Yet, instead of suggesting such an idea of reforming Gandalf´s use of Glamdring, you hammer on the passive damage boost. This is not the simple reform you consider it to be.
In terms of sword lore there would be many things to say on the topic but my opinion is that Andúril, Glamdring and Orcrist are simple excellent swords with their strengths already represented by the fact that they are wielded by heroes of such caliber. On top of that, in the lore everyone expects Andúril in the hands of Aragorn to be the only thing to influence Sauron, as a curse if you would. Glamdring and Orcrist, on the other side, are recognised as great swords nonetheless without being attributed a further goal.

In terms of game design, balance and hero roles, Aragorn needs the damage boost from Andúril to emphasise his role as hero killer with the 'Blade Master' ability. Gandalf and Thorin respectively have no need of such a damage increase because they are not primarily hero killers. If you would want to make the change in damage show, still, for whatever sake you believe in, then both Gandalf and Thorin's base damage before receiving their swords would need to be a lot lower in order to compensate for balance issues that arise, which in turn conjures up more balance issues.

Now you have been answered I would like to hear your opinion on my Narya proposal.  :)
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: Walküre am 2. Jan 2017, 23:57
Since Narya gives us the great scope for returning the very Ring of Fire to Gandalf and for endowing the hero with a smart feature, I find it appropriate that we're necessarily focusing on it. On the other hand, Gondor's Gandalf has already had Glamdring since the events of the Hobbit and the sword is thus a part of the character already: it would be hard to give Glamdring more prominence, without altering Gandalf's design (the very Lightning Sword does represent Glamdring's might very well). I would nonetheless like to assure you all again that Gandalf's spells will be much stronger in the next patch; particularly, as I recently had the opportunity to test Lightning Sword (the coincidence), that ability will indeed partly retrieve its past splendour as in BFME1 (against structures too). It's an enough evocative homage to Turgon's sword, isn't it?

(http://41.media.tumblr.com/62362033c8f65d4cf5aac4af9fb6fc0a/tumblr_nftj3zUtd11s1you5o2_1280.jpg)

Going back to Narya, thank you for sharing your ideas, Garlodur. I won't add any additional thought on the matter yet though, as I and another Beta Tester are conceiving a new proposal, which aims to find a compromise among our views (always based on my first draft) and to make the concept technically feasible in the first place. We'll obviously subject any 'final' idea to everyone's judgment. Then, I will reorder the thread and translate it in German to bring our suggestions in the German forum. I just ask for some patience, as the forum is very active these days (fortunately) and I'm also working on other concepts to take care of.

We're nonetheless doing a marvellous work and the final outcome will certainly be valuable. Thank you for the endurance shown so far, especially because this tough topic absolutely requires a very staunch resolution to develop new solutions for the game  :)
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 3. Jan 2017, 02:58
While we can hide from the issue of the swords canonicity by stating balance issues, design flaws, furthing a specified role, and "furthering goals" the truth is they were powerful swords that surpassed Anduriel and were canonical to Thorin and Gandalf's being.

As innumerably demonstrated in the books, Glamdring and Orcrist both had further goals. One, Glamdring was instrumental in taking down the Balrog of Morgoth. It is conceivable that without it, Gandalf would have been destroyed by the Balrog easily, but with it he broke the Balrog's sword, fought the Balrog and ended up chasing him up the mountain, and it was key in slaying the Great Goblin. So it had many goals that Tolkien wrote about and significance that made it a mightier blade that furthered Gandalf's importance/role in Middle Earth.

To Diewalkure, the lightning sword attack doesn't represent Glamdring, that represents Gandalf's power. Even Saruman can do lightning spells as demonstrated in game and on screen. It would not be hard to implement the +50% damage boost to Gandalf for his Gondor version and not Arnor. Not difficult at all and still allows Gandalf to keep his current powers.

The same could be said for Thorin and he eventually loses Orcrist when he is crowned King, so losing the +50% bonus would still be okay to have but to diminish later.

Now for Narya, I don't mind what you have presented Garlodur, I think the abilities are cool, but I don't think it should take up all three of Gandalf's stances. I feel it should be on Defense with everything that you said and if you click it again (while in defense stance) then it does the powers that you suggested. However, there should be something still for the standard and offensive stances.

The only way I would honestly concede to Narya being totally used as just a one stance system is if Glamdring did the +50% damage bonus passively to Gandalf as that is the most canonical. Otherwise, we "change his role" by switching his stances up like that and thus damaging his character and role that Ealendril worked so hard to put together and does not want changed.

So with that said, I would accept the idea of Narya being fully implemented in just one slot if Glamdring does the +50% bonus for Gondor Gandalf.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: Walküre am 3. Jan 2017, 04:11
Blue Wizard, you too have pointed out how Glamdring was needed to slay the Balrog and I have absolute respect for that kind of swords: forged by the Noldor and imbued by them with extraordinary properties (it's maybe easier to channel Magic via them) to withstand the horrors of the First Age. That said, in my personal opinion, Lightning Sword (both due to its linkage to Glamdring and to the cinematographic interpretation of that duel) simply represents both Gandalf's powers and his sword's might at the same time. Fact that will be even more indicative in the next patch.

By the way, if I'm not wrong, Lightning Sword used to be called Glamdring, in the 3.8.1 version. I wouldn't mind at all if they reintroduced the past title again, instead of the generic 'Lightning Sword'. I personally think that would suffice to give Glamdring that additional prominence in the game.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 3. Jan 2017, 08:18
Well calling it Glamdring wouldn't do anything in my mind--and the reason why Edain Team calls it Lightning Sword now, is because Gandalf didn't have Glamdring when he was with Arnor. So that is the reason they changed it. Maybe we could just add a passive power like Sauron has on the side of Gondor's power tree representing Narya or Glamdring. That could possibly work too, and that would solve the issue easily since Gondor and Arnor have different powers.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 3. Jan 2017, 12:59
My view on this is that Gondor Gandalf can stay as he his bar a Narya power; although renaming Lighting Sword to Glamdring is a good idea.
Arnor Gandalf when he receives the Glamdring ability, recieves a damage buff; this can also make up for the fact Arnor do not get Gandalf the white.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 3. Jan 2017, 14:11
Zitat von: DieWalküre am  2. Jan 2017, 23:57
Going back to Narya, thank you for sharing your ideas, Garlodur. I won't add any additional thought on the matter yet though, as I and another Beta Tester are conceiving a new proposal, which aims to find a compromise among our views (always based on my first draft) and to make the concept technically feasible in the first place.

Yes, DieWalküre and I have come up with a compromise for Narya that not only is technically (which I'll explain later), but, in our eyes, makes sense with the whole theme of Narya not having a direct or physical effect, but boosting Gandalf internally.

First, let us get into the technical side of this.  Units/Heroes need to have a either a standard stance swap, or a unique stance swap (similar to what Thranduil, Helegwen, Denethor and Malbeth have).  If they don't, this will cause certain bugs.  So, you can't outright replace Gandalf's stance swap with an ability focused on Narya.  So unless one of Gandalf's other abilities are replace, something that I can pretty much guarantee won't ever happen, Gandalf will not have an active or passive ability involving Narya.

So, DieWalküre and I worked with what we had and came up with stance swap that will involve Narya.  The name suggested by DieWalküre is Repatriation of Narya to Gandalf.

To keep The Ring of Fire more of an amplifier rather then it having a direct of physically effect, it will affect Gandalf in a more passive way.

On "Aggressive Stance" , the Ring of Fire will be focused more on amplifying Gandalf in an offensive manor, increasing his spell damage by 25%, but halving the frequency of Gandalf activating his Bubble Shield (or outright not allowing it to activate, which ever works better).

On "Defensive Stance", the Ring of Fire will be focused more on amplifying Gandalf in a defensive manor, doubling the frequency of Gandalf activating his Bubble Shield, but reducing his spell damage by 25%.  "Battle Stance" will remain unchanged.

Of course, the numbers can be tweaked to whatever is the most balanced for Gandalf. 

As for Cirdan, because Gandalf will have Narya, the name of his first ability will have to be changed, maybe to something like "Gift of the Grey Havens".  Though I don't think it is necessary to change the effects of the ability, as it still makes sense for Cirdan to inspire allies.

Thoughts and suggestions on everything are greatly appreciated.  :)
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: DrHouse93 am 3. Jan 2017, 15:41
That's not a bad idea, Haman and Walk^^
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: Gandalf7000 am 3. Jan 2017, 17:46
Zitat von: Hamanathnath am  3. Jan 2017, 14:11
As for Cirdan, because Gandalf will have Narya, the name of his first ability will have to be changed, maybe to something like "Gift of the Grey Havens".
I would rather see that called "Gift of the Sea(s)"
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 3. Jan 2017, 17:55
LordofLinks: Gandalf the Grey DID NOT have Glamdring during his time with Arnor. All he technically had was a staff. For this reason, Edain Team got rid of calling his sword Glamdring and introduced the "Lightning Sword" as more of a spell for Gandalf. He doesn't get the benefits of wielding Turgon's sword.

So I have a compromise for all of you. I feel Gandalf should have an additional passive power (much like Sauron does at the beginning of every game that tells about how he can't die and what he needs to level). Call it what you want but I feel this could be applied to Gandalf and it would not mess with his stances or powers at all!

On the passive power to the left it would be called Wisest of the Maia (for Arnor) and Gandalf receives the abilities from Narya by clicking on the power to the left or if it is just a passive bonus--it is applied to him.

Now for Gondor and on all Gondor related maps the power is called Gandalf the Grey has a picture of him when he met Bilbo, Gandalf receives the effects of Narya passively/actively but also receives a damage boost of +50% from Glamdring.

I feel this is the best way and satisfies all parties. You wouldn't have to mess with any of Gandalf's powers, they would stay the same, the stances would stay the same, and this would not interfere with any of Gondor or Arnor's power tree. I think this is the best and most suitable way to implement this.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: Garlodur am 4. Jan 2017, 02:19
Thank you for your contributions regarding Glamdring, DieWalküre, you phrased it quite a bit better than me, while you also related Lightning Sword to previous versions of Edain Mod's Gandalf.

It is great to hear you have worked on the proposal yourself as well. Having someone on the inside help you with the technical aspect is certainly necessary to keep focus in terms of game design.

Zitat von: Hamanathnath am  3. Jan 2017, 14:11
First, let us get into the technical side of this.  Units/Heroes need to have a either a standard stance swap, or a unique stance swap (similar to what Thranduil, Helegwen, Denethor and Malbeth have).  If they don't, this will cause certain bugs.  So, you can't outright replace Gandalf's stance swap with an ability focused on Narya.  So unless one of Gandalf's other abilities are replace, something that I can pretty much guarantee won't ever happen, Gandalf will not have an active or passive ability involving Narya.

I understand now, this is some very interesting knowledge to use in future concept creations  ;)
I wonder then, though, how Sauron´s stance system was created, with the swapping of abilities as well.
Also I hope this knowledge contributes to DieWalküre's proposal of Galadriel's stance system. :)

Zitat von: Hamanathnath am  3. Jan 2017, 14:11
So, DieWalküre and I worked with what we had and came up with stance swap that will involve Narya.  The name suggested by DieWalküre is Repatriation of Narya to Gandalf.

To keep The Ring of Fire more of an amplifier rather then it having a direct of physically effect, it will affect Gandalf in a more passive way.

On "Aggressive Stance" , the Ring of Fire will be focused more on amplifying Gandalf in an offensive manor, increasing his spell damage by 25%, but halving the frequency of Gandalf activating his Bubble Shield (or outright not allowing it to activate, which ever works better).

On "Defensive Stance", the Ring of Fire will be focused more on amplifying Gandalf in a defensive manor, doubling the frequency of Gandalf activating his Bubble Shield, but reducing his spell damage by 25%.  "Battle Stance" will remain unchanged.

Of course, the numbers can be tweaked to whatever is the most balanced for Gandalf. 

Well, I had a very similar idea in mind at the beginning of this topic. One that I couldn´t get my head around. For this reason I shared the other idea first, not entirely aware of technical issues surrounding such an implementation.

I was thinking to add the increase/reduction of cooldown for abilities to exactly shown how Gandalf channels Narya´s power to other aspects of magic that are not his abilities, which deal direct damage, but rather hidden abilities like the Bubble Shield to be activated more often in the defensive stance, and a sort of resistance leadership in aggressive stance. It became too complicated at some point however, so I thought of a different way of implementing the abilities (see my previous concept).

I have to say that your joint effort covers a good deal of Narya's use in Gandalf's magic while remaining strongly connected to the stance system. Yet, what I find lacking is the supportive aspect of Gandalf´s personality or, arguably, of the Ring of Fire´s powers. I believe that the bold phrases in the following quote should be deepened out more:

Zitat
"Take this ring, Master… for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you."
― Círdan, Appendix B

Taken from TolkienGateway.net

Here it is explicitly mentioned by none other than Tolkien himself that Gandalf should be a character that carries hope, messages, and news to the Free People of Middle Earth. An aspect that I mentioned before is essential to Gandalf's character and which did not go unnoticed by Peter Jackson's and Sir Ian McKellen's portrayal of the wise Grey Wizard.

Therefore, I sought in my earlier concept a way of including this supportive role. Perhaps it wasn't clear in expressing my aim to scale the ability thus because it would have been too strong at low levels with a passive and active function.

Could you think of a way to include a leadership to the stance system (or to Gandalf as a whole), in technical terms?
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Jan 2017, 03:51
I'm glad you appreciate the concept, Garlodur. And thank you for sharing your thoughts on the matter. The proposal shown by Haman is basically a compromise among most of the aspects we discussed so far; it's true that it may lack something, but I assure you that it's a just compromise indeed  ;)

Zitat von: Garlodur am  4. Jan 2017, 02:19
I understand now, this is some very interesting knowledge to use in future concept creations  ;)
I wonder then, though, how Sauron´s stance system was created, with the swapping of abilities as well.
Also I hope this knowledge contributes to DieWalküre's proposal of Galadriel's stance system. :)

A very wise question. As far as my knowledge contemplates, issues might arise if the stance system is completely replaced by a single ability. Probably (don't absolutely quote me on this though), that's not the case of Sauron or of my proposal concerning Galadriel, since the sixth slot (in these two cases) unlocks a new set of abilities (a new Palantír). But the most significant thing to know is that we nonetheless wanted to stick to the common structure of a stance system, given also the conceptual boundaries I addressed in the first passages of this thread: the fact that Gandalf would never be granted additional abilities, in any way. Therefore, the final outcome we eventually conceived was quite simple, under a conceptual point of view. A three-part feature.

Speaking about technical matters, it would always be great if we managed to receive some indications by the very Edain Team. Due to a quite limited time (these days, especially), it's very unlikely to be given many insights about multiple topics though; or, they probably prefer to sort technical aspects out among themselves, thus sparing us complicated dilemmas to deal with (so that we can freely develop our ideas without many preoccupations). For now, we only have to consider conceptual problematics. This is our task  ;)

Regarding Narya and its hope-infusing properties, I agree with you. As this is fully lore-accurate, there is little to be said. Only, I apologise if it sounds really mysterious and vague, I will tell you this: my concerns about Gandalf's role (something I inferred in my previous posts) have been confirmed. Gandalf won't receive any leadership ability of any sort. Accordingly to his solitary and mass-slayer characterisation, he won't be endowed with anything that could even slightly grant him supporting properties. Although it may seem to contrast with the lore, I perfectly understand the reasons. Henceforth, we could see things in this way: Gandalf's real hope-infusing capability and leading role are his very Magic.

Tomorrow, I will reorder the thread and maybe translate it in German too. Goodnight  :)
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 4. Jan 2017, 05:08
Okay I made an option available and no one seemed to comment on it. Having Narya/Glamdring as a power on the left hand side like Sauron's power that he starts off with would solve all issues.

I am really tired of hearing people say that Gandalf's role will change, does Aragorn as King Elessar's role change when he becomes king and gives a leadership bonus to nearby troops? No, because this is canonical and it is what he would do. Does Galadriel's new system proposed change her role as a building destroyer, the answer is yes.

So I could go on about this but why should other characters get "special" treatment like what is mentioned above, but not Gandalf? Who had all these canonically anyways. I feel to NOT implement this with Gandalf is uncanonical--if Aragorn, Galadriel, Glorfindel, etc. have other aspects that they semi contribute, then I don't see why Gandalf having Narya and a bonus from Glamdring would be overpowering, next to many other heroes--it wouldn't. Any character with a flying mount could still best Gandalf, and Sauron himself could still beat him, so what is the issue with Narya and Glamdring?

Implement the combined system of Garlodur with the power I suggested in the left corner for Arnor (call it the Wisest of the Maia) and implement Glamdring's bonus with Narya's ability with Gondor (call it Gandalf the Grey). Simply put, done. This is the best option, don't have to worry about the stance system, don't have to worry about power changes, and everything is canoncial and goes with the books and balance system.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: Hamanathnath am 4. Jan 2017, 14:05
Zitat von: dkbluewizard am  4. Jan 2017, 05:08
Okay I made an option available and no one seemed to comment on it. Having Narya/Glamdring as a power on the left hand side like Sauron's power that he starts off with would solve all issues.
I don't think it really makes sense for Gandalf to have his own starting power like Sauron has.  There are 2 reasons for Sauron having the power explain how he levels up.

1.  Because without it, you would have no idea how to level up Sauron (a simple, but important reason :P)
2.  But more importantly, Sauron is without any doubt the most important aspect of Mordor's gameplay.  Sauron is the leader of Mordor, and the entire balance of the faction revolves around him.  Without him, you can't level up any of the Nazgul or the Mouth of Sauron, you can't get certain units such as Black Uruk Archers and Troll Catapults, and you can't get any unit upgrades outside of banner carriers. 

Gandalf, on the other hand, as you know, is not the leader of Gondor/Arnor, nor does he function as the center figure of the factions.  So I don't really think it makes sense for Gondor or Arnor to have a power that they start with that involves Gandalf.

Also, I'm not entirely sure what the exact point is of giving Gandalf a 50% damage boost in the first place is.  He already has incredibly high melee damage (I recall it being 440 melee damage at level 1, which is higher then pretty much any hero in the mod that isn't a hero killer).

I can get behind implementing Narya because it does not require faction specific powers (as Gandalf has Narya in both his Gondor and Arnor incarnations) and using the stance swap mechanic, Narya can be implemented in interesting ways.  But giving Gandalf a damage boost just to signify Glamdring feels unneeded, uninteresting, and unbalanced to me.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: Slawek56703 am 4. Jan 2017, 14:26
I have another little idea of Narya attainted to his stance . If Gandalf spells become much stronger in next version i came up with simle idea . Last chance  xD

Gandalf Grey


Gandalf White


Gandalf Corrupted


Gandalf Challenge Master
 
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Jan 2017, 15:38
Zitat von: dkbluewizard am  4. Jan 2017, 05:08
I am really tired of hearing people say that Gandalf's role will change, does Aragorn as King Elessar's role change when he becomes king and gives a leadership bonus to nearby troops? No, because this is canonical and it is what he would do. Does Galadriel's new system proposed change her role as a building destroyer, the answer is yes.

No, it doesn't. I exactly crafted the proposal not to alter her major supporting role and her characterisation of a building destroyer. The feature in fact has a highly temporary essence and, once its limited effect is over, Galadriel returns immediately to her usual conceptual design (without any permanent change).

We're not doing any favouritism of any sort to any hero. We're just considering each specific case and then trying to come up with the most reasonable solution. As I wrote at the very beginning of this debate, Gandalf's concept is extremely tough to deal with, as there are so many boundaries to take into account (I listed them multiple times). Therefore, as Haman pointed out, Sauron's or Galadriel's situation can't objectively be applicable to this context, where we are in front of a solitary mass-slayer who is not supposed to be the leader of the faction (albeit being the faction's mightiest force to reckon with). Add to this all the iconic references from the first chapter of this game series which he embodies.

Said that, a three-part stance system complies well with the need to return Narya to its legitimate owner, to focus more on Gandalf's magical powers and, most importantly, not to disrupt his concept or the faction's structure. That's why I deem the proposal both enough simple and viable at the same time. A good deal more viable than modifying the spellbook structure of the faction by adding or replacing spells. Especially now, I would say, that spells are undergoing a major overhaul for the next patch; but, since this is something still in the developing phase, we're neither allowed to reveal it nor am I intended to deal with the topic in this thread. Concerning Glamdring, as I previously told you, I respect your views and perfectly understand why you wish the sword were to be given more prominence, but, given the very confined range of action that we're obliged to operate into, I decided to follow the most simplistic way: not doing anything at all. Lightning Sword already well represents the royal sword's might (in conjunction with Gandalf's Magic) and so, by leaving everything untouched, there won't be issues related to new features or to the Arnor/Gondor duality aspect.

Slawek, thank you for sharing your ideas. I would nonetheless stick to the main concept Haman and I proposed. In my opinion, changing animations and granting him a ranged attack are something that makes the system more complex. And more complicated concepts had better be avoided while having to deal with the Grey Wizard, for the known reasons.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 4. Jan 2017, 17:41
Well I offered a solution that fits and could please everyone, I really don't see how a damage boost changes Gandalf's character significantly since he doesn't have aoe melee attacks, can't affect air units, and still wouldn't come close to beating Sauron. Maybe he would then be able to beat Morgul Witch King and Dol Gulder Khamul, but book wise he should, and really all they would have to do is mount their fellbeasts and Gandalf is destroyed. Don't get me started with Smaug owning him.

So as far as balance goes, it is still balanced.  Hamanathnath, uninteresting and unneeded is your main issue, but I say that it is canonical and would still be balanced. As I demonstrated above.

But okay Diewalkure and Haman lets say that I actually agree with you, based on what YOU have presented Diewalkure, I will do the same:

Besides the Narya power, what if we gave Gandalf the +50% damage boost only when he is facing a powerful opponent like if the Balrog strikes him, a troll, or other powerful character? Basically this would function and activate along with his magical shield (this could be a passive ability that goes along with his Lightning Sword).

1. It would not change his function as a mass slayer.
2. It implements the canon of Glamdring to his character like you did with Galadriel albeit it the same time structure and cool down.
3. Gandalf did this against the Balrog in the books (only time his sword glowed white)
4. If you see complications with Arnor, just don't have him activate this ability or say that he can but it is more a magical melee enhancement instead of the blade doing the work (but personally I feel he shouldn't get it with Arnor).
5. Lastly, this works like the Galadriel function and it would since Gandalf already has an ability similar when his shield surrounds him.

Let us just be honest, I have presented canonical balances to the character and presented something that would go great in addition to not changing his character, this would work. I don't remember ever a time someone called Gandalf the Godly.

So this is my proposal, we can implement Narya via the way we have talked about and this ability would go along with his magic bubble shield.  I think it would be okay. Especially since it doesn't "change his role."
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: Slawek56703 am 4. Jan 2017, 18:07
Zitat

Slawek, thank you for sharing your ideas. I would nonetheless stick to the main concept Haman and I proposed. In my opinion, changing animations and granting him a ranged attack are something that makes the system more complex. And more complicated concepts had better be avoided while having to deal with the Grey Wizard, for the known reasons.

Thanks can't wait for the the completed proposal good luck to u and Haman. When i mean essence of the Lighning attacks i didn't mean Ranged attack . After Gandalf Lightning Sword attack wears off he attacking normally with melee atacks his sword is shining for certain amount of time dealing electric damage to opponent with increased damage effect . It is for agressive stance and all of his forms with diffreant effects that he can use throughout whole game . It is just to clarify thinks up  xD .
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Jan 2017, 18:25
Blue Wizard, if damage boost is what concerns you the most, I guess we can simply modify the numbers a bit, and thus we might increase both the value of attack and defence of each stance (50%, for example). This would make Gandalf effective and protected in all kinds of eventualities, without implementing more complicated systems for very particular cases (as the Balrog). Narya's three-part stance system already provides us on a global scale with the enhancement that Gandalf needs.

It's not that I'm ignoring your ideas for a precise reason. I just don't see the need to implement an additional feature, to replace spells or to apply other contexts to this one (as the comparison with Galadriel's 'emergency' transformation, which I find quite inappropriate as Gandalf is a completely different hero). And, as I already stated, Gandalf is already going to get a boost in the forthcoming patch, aside from our proposal regarding Narya. Trust me, I tested things myself and I know what I'm talking about. Avoiding more complex additions (as expanding Lightning Sword's function) spares us greater issues. Issues related to an already tough topic to discuss as this one.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 4. Jan 2017, 19:02
Diewalkure, it was not so much the damage boost as I just wanted a canonical Glamdring, but if you are already including a damage boost with Narya, then I feel I can't say anything as I do not want Gandalf to be godly. Gandalf the White should be the best hero besides Sauron, but that is beside the point.

If you adjust the numbers slightly with Narya, I won't complain or bother.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Jan 2017, 19:30
As I told you, I understand your reasons very well. I'm absolutely conscious of the importance that Glamdring has in the lore, as the legendary blade of Turgon.

Only, consider the context in which we are: Gandalf is already a quite complete hero. We can't replace spellbook spells, we can't replace or change any of his iconic abilities and we must also consider his defined characterisation as a mass-slayer. If we are to conceive a proposal for Glamdring, we would probably be forced to change some of his abilities and, most importantly, to come up with an alternative for Arnor's Gandalf. So, leaving things unaltered prevents these additional (and not needed) issues from burdening us even more. Lightning Sword is nonetheless present and it will always be so. For the ones who know about Glamdring, that ability already represents the sword's might.

On the other hand, as Gandalf's mission started as soon as he set foot on Middle-earth, both Arnor's Gandalf and Gondor's one wield Narya (and even the Blue Mountains' Gandalf). We thus don't find any problem in adapting the proposal to the game, given also that it adds something more without altering the current design (in any way).

Blue, by opening this thread in the first place, it's you who have given the greatest input for this debate to develop, and I'm grateful to you for that. But the final solution had necessarily to be a compromise among our own divergent views and respectful of those famous boundaries. It may may lack something (Glamdring), but I think it's the only viable way to get things done (which is eventually the most important thing). I hope you'll understand. Just think about: not so much time ago, even hinting at possible changes or additions for Gandalf would have been quite impossible. I guess we have all done a marvellous work. The best we could have objectively done.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 4. Jan 2017, 23:01
Diewalkure, like I said, if we incorporate the damage boost with Narya, then I guess everything is good since there is no other option according to the individuals on this forum. Thank you and lets go with that.
Titel: Re: A canonical Gandalf
Beitrag von: Walküre am 5. Jan 2017, 12:20
And so, at last, this concept is given life. I present Narya (https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,34267.msg451550.html#msg451550) to all of you!

Many thanks to all for the precious help in developing this concept. I opened another thread, so that all our contributions here will remain as they are. While showcasing the concept, I explained the alternative for Círdan and illustrated how Narya could work in regards of Gandalf's Ring forms. Now, you should head there and leave your final feedback on the matter  ;)