Modding Union

[en] The Prancing Pony => Off Topic => Other => Thema gestartet von: lord_ellessar am 1. Okt 2016, 14:36

Titel: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lord_ellessar am 1. Okt 2016, 14:36
I know that edain have already chose their two new factions but it is always interesting to speak about some new concepts even if it won't be include,...

so i was speaking a really short time with dkbluewizard and i had already a nice concept, i think ...

     DORWINION


             We know that Dorwinion in the fan culture is a region whit a part of elves and a majority of men, so at the beginning of the skirmish, the player could choose between the elves and the men, with particularities for each parts.

             The beginning; at early game, dorwinion should be a faction more based on resources, the first units could be a men militia, the vineyards guards, a unit of five men only and at for example 500 instead of 200 but the resources buildings could be up, and gives 30 instead of 15 the dorwinion factions could recruit messenger that make peace for X time but that are high in price and disappear after a time it gives a real neutral effect of dorwinion faction... the barracks could recruit powerful elves units but high in price and at the oupost, a men outpost where you have elite men units and one hero. At the little oupost, they could choose between vineyards where you can recruits vineyards guards and that gives you money, a merchant outpost, there you can recruit neutral merchants, so enemy can't attack him and you have to sell it in enemy camp and, finally a little watchtower

             The late game; in the later game, dorwinion could recruit their strong units, the Thorns Guards and Bladorthin swords both elven elites units.

             The beginning; There, dorwinion would be a military faction focused on  numerous units, their units count 10 mens but they are less strong than elves but at a lower price. There at the outpost they recruit elite elves and one hero.

             The late game; in the later game, dorwinion could recruit their strong units, the Vintners court guards, and the prrt i don't know :P
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 2. Okt 2016, 09:25
I would suggest posting your ideas here:
https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32416.30.html
As this is a thread for such ideas, unfortunately ideas relating to new fractions tend to get closed here :(
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: Walküre am 2. Okt 2016, 11:46
As this is a thread for such ideas, unfortunately ideas relating to new fractions tend to get closed here :(

They tend to get closed for very precise reasons. All the English Moderators have followed this custom so far; not because we are evil or because we don't want you to share your ideas in regards of new factions (you can see yourself how many people participated in the Evil Men thread), but for the fact that new factions are a completely speculative topic and we don't have any planned news concerning them nor vague indications by the Edain Team.

The Edain boards are meant to gather discussions or proposals that relate to known content and factual elements. Also, there is still a major faction yet to be released and I guess most of the attention of the Community will rightly be conveyed to the Misty Mountains.

By the way, I won't lock the topic. I will just move it to the Off-Topic section  ;)
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 3. Okt 2016, 02:18
As this is a thread for such ideas, unfortunately ideas relating to new fractions tend to get closed here :(

They tend to get closed for very precise reasons. All the English Moderators have followed this custom so far; not because we are evil or because we don't want you to share your ideas in regards of new factions (you can see yourself how many people participated in the Evil Men thread), but for the fact that new factions are a completely speculative topic and we don't have any planned news concerning them nor vague indications by the Edain Team.

The Edain boards are meant to gather discussions or proposals that relate to known content and factual elements. Also, there is still a major faction yet to be released and I guess most of the attention of the Community will rightly be conveyed to the Misty Mountains.

By the way, I won't lock the topic. I will just move it to the Off-Topic section  ;)
I don't disagree, its just I feel that in the "Other" section of off topic, ideas can be forgotten about and are out of the way and hidden.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: Walküre am 3. Okt 2016, 10:29
They're not at all hidden. They are just detached from the main discussions of the Edain boards for the just reasons stated in my previous comment. When the right time comes, you can be sure that I will move this kind of suggestions in the regular sections.

By the way, are you really sure that they remain hidden in this part of MU? Just look at the Evil Men thread: many people have participated in the topic giving their precious contributions, and the poll has overall gathered almost 100 votes, fact that makes it one of the most popular debates of the English Community. I thus wouldn't really say that moving (temporarily) discussions that concern new factions to this board could hamper their very development in the end. If you want a thread to succeed, you have to make sure to propose interesting concepts and manage things in an efficient way. Ultimately, most of the things are up to who is to take care of the suggestions presented.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: Leri_weill am 4. Okt 2016, 18:48
Just to add to what Walk said, people like me who always have a look at the "Unread posts" section will never miss a comment about the topic. Be assured that those who want to follow this thread will be able to :)

Back to Dorwinion, it would be a nice add-on to the game, but Tolkien gave next to no details about that people. it would be a faction made from scratch like Angmar has been by the devs. That would take a loooong time, and maybe there are more relevant factions to be added. I for example would love to see a Dunedain faction (or maybe subfaction for GOndor ?)! What ? How did you now I am a Third Age Total War fan ?
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 6. Nov 2016, 06:51
Hello everyone. I have watched as many good ideas and canonical suggestions have been made. So it is high time I suggested something for the last faction slot and this is Dorwinion.

   So why Dorwinion? For several reasons this kingdom needs to be implemented—it is a sovereign kingdom that trades with everyone, is neutral, is canonical, is in the east, is identified as not being under the influence of Sauron, and is a catalyst for the Blue Wizards and other remaining forces not included in the Edain Mod (such as Avari, blue allies, etc.).

   Please allow me to regale all of you with what we know. I’ll start with King Bladorthin who was to have the Dwarfs of Erebor commission many spears for his army. Bladorthin’s death was premature, and yet we know not his true identity. Some say he was a man, others say an elf—and some speculate that his death was not premature. It is speculation, but I felt he was an elf and the kingdom he ruled was either near, apart, or was in fact Dorwinion. With that stated Dorwinion is a logical faction slot with several mysteries befitting of the blue wizards themselves!

   Heroes: The main issue many will have is “canonical heroes” I have some for you (as Saruman would say). Dorwinion based on its geographical location, and what we know from Lost Tales and other sources, is run by Avari elves. Obviously these elves have never seen the light of the two trees. With that said here is a list of canonical heroes for the Dorwinion fortress:

   Morwe (King of an Avari tribe). Since they are immortal beings, Morwe is not dead, Tolkien wrote about him in his notes, the kingdom of Dorwinion would need a ruler and who better than Morwe? He could be a hero killer or tank along the lines of Celeborn’s power level.

   Nurwe (King of an Avari tribe) essentially the exact same thing as written above and could be either a hero killer or tank.

   Daeron (Bard who went to the Far East after Doriath’s destruction). Everyone knows the greatest bard in middle earth. He is a perfect for this faction as a unit support.

   Blue Wizards (Alatar and Pallando). They went to the far east, not much is known about them. But using what we know, Alatar is of Orome’s kin and would get along with the elves greatly, while Pallando (depending on what you read) is either of Namo, Nienna, or Orome’s people (I personally think he is of Namo’s cause the Valar would have wanted to contest Sauron in many different ways). Pallando gets along with the human side to Dorwinion. The two blue wizards fit in here as Gandalf would for Gondor. They would be most liked here and regarded as wise counselors in the fight against evil.

   So with this said, this leaves room for a scout hero made up by the Edain team (Bladorthin II or Tauriel as a hero perhaps?) and heroes from certain settlements and outposts.

   Outposts: Since I feel the kingdom of Dorwinion should be a wealthy fortified area filled with Avari and Men, the Outpost would be a regular outpost for the faction and the other option is a Cultist outpost which is a cultist like structure that is blue. I think of a Harad looking tent which produces cultists that look like the dudes off of Conan the Barbarian (except in blue), and they are support troops like Angmar’s acolytes, and they field blue easterling like troops.

   Settlements: The settlements are easy, one would be the casual farm producing building, and the second would be a wine field like settlement (entmoot like) that produces the units from Edain 3.81. The Wine Mages would be made from these. The third settlement is a Dwarven settlement that adds dwarvish troops to Dorwinion.

   Overall view of Dorwinion faction: Dorwinion is like Warhammer’s Dogs of War army and is a melting pot of cultures and warriors. They are heavily fortified, but have many different mercenaries or warriors fighting for and with them for various different reasons—out of fear of Sauron and others, loyalty, wealth, or power. A wine kingdom much like the comradery states of Italy during the renaissance.

   Why is it crucial for this to be implemented? Because it fills in the final gaps of middle earth and it is one of the seven kingdoms of the seven crowns that stand as free peoples without necessarily being good or evil. They are just selfish, business like, and monetarily wise. It solves the blue wizard dilemma, units for this faction have already been in production, Edain Team can capitalize and put their great minds to work on this, and finally it gives the player a unique feel on what it is like to have a neutral army that holds all the free peoples in it—a selfish fellowship of the free peoples if you will.

So what do you guys say? Would you like to see this faction implemented? I would maybe we can vote on it?

Also, thank you for taking time to read all this. I know it was long.  :)
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 6. Nov 2016, 07:05
Also I wanted to add this. Some of you may ask? Why do Dwarfs ally with this faction. Well there are 3 Dorwinions that Tolkien wrote about and they all essentially did the same thing. They traded with everyone including Dwarfs (as shown in the Hobbit possibly with Bladorthin), were famous for their wines, and there are other Dwarf houses in the east. I think it fits.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: kolibri8 am 6. Nov 2016, 13:33
First and foremost, I do not mind the implemention of Dorwinion in the Mod as a faction, actually I find the idea quite interesting and intriguing. However I think your argumentation is a bit flawed.

For once Dorwinion is never mentioned as a independet sovereign realm, AFAIK it is only mentioned in the Third Age as source of Thranduil's wine in the Hobbit, and the region where Dorwinion is situated was part of Gondor during the reign of Hyarmendacil I (which is between 1015 and 1149 TA) according to Appendix A. So talking about Dorwinion as a canonical Kingdom is a bit overexaggerated.

Thus implementing Dowinion, would basicly mean the reconstuction of a hypothetical Faction based upon assumption and speculation of such scale where no one could truthfully claim it is "canonical". Again, I don't say Dorwinion shouldn't be added. Similarily to Angmar, Dorwinion could be a faction where the Mod-Team could be especially creative, without beeing "limited" by the source material, if they want to.

Regarding the Identity of King Bladorthin, there is a quite interesting and well written essay by Andreas Mohn a.k.a. Lalaith called "The mysterious king Bladorthin
and his political identity in the Third Age (http://web.archive.org/web/20130107014744/http://lalaith.vpsurf.de/Tolkien/Bladorthin.html)".
In this essay Mohn lists six arguments for Bladorthin to not have been an Elf but a Man:
Zitat
  • The kings and kingdoms of the Light Elves are all accounted for. Bladorthin could then only have been a Dark Elf. But Dark Elves would not use names that are legible in Gnomish or Sindarin.
  • Elven kingdoms of the Third Age did not maintain armies to be equipped, so there would have been no need for Bladorthin to order a delivery of such size.
  • No Third Age Elf, however dark, would have ordered his arms from Dwarves.
  • The fall of a major Elf-king (long since dead) would have been remembered much more profoundly in the histories.
  • The custom of using Elvish names is known not only from Elves but also among the Dúnedain of Arnor and Gondor. They rarely occur as well among other peoples under the cultural influence of Westernesse (p.e. Girion Lord of Dale).
  • The indiscriminate use of the title "king", rather than "Elven-King" or "Dwarf-king", suggests that he was of the kind most familiar to the hobbitish author and the reader.
I find them quite convincing, so in my eyes Dorwinion could or better should be a Kingdom of Men. However it is quite likely that the Kingdom was destroyed with Bladorthins death. Otherwise Bladorthins heirs should have been mentioned at some point in the Legendarium, e.g. in the Hobbit, claiming the spears their forefather had ordered.

Furthermore I don't like the idea of Dwarves as part of the Kingdom. The East of Middle Earth streches far beyond the Sea of Rhûn and is largley unchartered (disregrarding some conceptional maps of Arda in the HoME, but even there Mordor and the Sea of Rhûn are quite centered in the whole Continent of Middle Earth). Nothing in the recorded Legendarium implies, that a large Quantity of Dwarves lives or lived in Dorwinion, as it is at most a hilly land with no mountains, which seem to be the home of choice for Dwarves. It is more likely, that they lived in the Mountains in the Far East e.g. the Orocarni. There might have been Dwarvish Traders, but not a large population, that would IMHO justify the addition of Dwarvish Units to the Faction.

Also the Heros: Of both Morwe and Nurwe is said that they stood behind in Cuivienen. If these maps are right: First Age (http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/File:Quentin_Lowagie_-_Arda_in_the_First_Age.png) Third Age (http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/File:Quentin_Lowagie_-_Arda_in_the_Third_Age.png) this is quite far away from Dorwinion. I'm not saying that there are no Avari, but I find it unlikely, that the leaders of those elves who choosed to stay in Cuivinien, one day decided to migrate to Dorwinion.

Over all I like the idea of a mixed mannish-elvish faction, even though I think that the mannish part should outweight the elvish.

So, I like the basic idea, but IMO the concept itself needs some tweaks.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 6. Nov 2016, 15:31
Hello Veteran and thanks for your comment. As stated, I feel there would be a lot of creativity involved. You are right but it is all speculation--for instance we really don't know if Bladorthin's kingdom was destroyed or not. If we as players are getting hung up on the semantics of the area (Dorwinion) then we could call it Eastern Mercenaries or something.

You mention that they are not a sovereign realm. You are right when Gondor was younger and before the "great plague" broke out, Dorwinion was part of Gondor. But since then they relinquished their hold over that fiefdom. Dorwinion essentially belongs to themselves now.

Also, some more flaws from your statement: "I find it unlikely, that the leaders of those elves who choosed to stay in Cuivinien, one day decided to migrate to Dorwinion." They had to as the Sea of Helcar ceased to exist after the War of Wrath. So if they survived, they would have to migrate.

Also like I said earlier, the Dorwinion faction is made up of men and elves mostly. The Dwarfs are just an add on from the eastern mountains as you have stated. The reason why Dorwinion is a hybrid of man and elf is because like you said:

1. Gondor once ruled over Dorwinion.
2. Dorwinion at Tol Eressa and in Beleriand was an elf area that was famous for their wines as well and how it could make elves drunk.
3. How would men know the secrets to making elves pass out if there weren't any elves helping in making of the wines?

So in conclusion, Dorwinion, as I stated is more of a wealthy area that has many people fighting for them. Why else could they stay free from Sauron or anyone else's influence? And it is exaggerated either way to say Bladorthin's kingdom was destroyed or not. It is as exaggerated as the number of Dunedain we can buy in Edain or the fact that Imladris could produce an army during War of the Ring.

I have read the following essays and have heard much debate about Bladorthin's identity. Personally, Bladorthin is irrelevant to the discussion, he is here just to symbolize that there was a kingdom in the east that we don't know about that was probably near Dorwinion. We can assume either way that his kingdom was destroyed or not--however, Dorwinion, the Blue Wizards, the Avari, and the Dwarfs were all canonical forces in the east.

So I like how you said you would like to see this implemented, but I think the semantics of the area is what is causing the issue, but don't let that get you down. I think the name is recognizable and would allow people to understand that these are the forces of the east that the blue wizards came in contact with.

EDIT: Sorry I meant hello  kolibri8.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: Namek am 6. Nov 2016, 16:52
Hello Everyone...

I think the Misty Mountains as three subfactions is essencial as an independent Rhun/Harad faction. In my opinion Rhun and Harad should be subfactions of East Kingdoms because they also battle without the influence of Sauron before the War of the Ring against Rohan and Gondor...

This is my sugestion to complement better the Edain Mod. After all, The Greatest BFME Mod EVER...

Thanks... Farewell...
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 6. Nov 2016, 19:17
To kolibri8

I found what you were talking about and they do put Bladorthin as king of Dorwinion, and perhaps you are right that he was a man given that he died prematurely--personally given the etymology of his name and how he was originally suppose to be Gandalf, I wonder if he was a half-elf and he was known for great deeds by fighting with Gondor and Rohan against the Balcoth riders but died abruptly after choosing a mortal life.

However, that speculation is irrelevant. His kingdom survived and it is considered by many to be Dorwinion. I have more for you to read at this site. Though, it is in English.

http://www.minastirith.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000248;p=1

Read Thorin's post I think that solidifies my decision in incorporating this awesome faction to Edain given the Lore, mystery, and perfect place for the blue wizards and remaining denizens of the East.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lord_ellessar am 7. Nov 2016, 13:36
Zitat
I know that edain have already chose their two new factions but it is always interesting to speak about some new concepts even if it won't be include,...

so i was speaking a really short time with dkbluewizard and i had already a nice concept, i think ...

     DORWINION

•1) The choice is yours:

             We know that Dorwinion in the fan culture is a region whit a part of elves and a majority of men, so at the beginning of the skirmish, the player could choose between the elves and the men, with particularities for each parts.
•2) The Elves:

             The beginning; at early game, dorwinion should be a faction more based on resources, the first units could be a men militia, the vineyards guards, a unit of five men only and at for example 500 instead of 200 but the resources buildings could be up, and gives 30 instead of 15 the dorwinion factions could recruit messenger that make peace for X time but that are high in price and disappear after a time it gives a real neutral effect of dorwinion faction... the barracks could recruit powerful elves units but high in price and at the oupost, a men outpost where you have elite men units and one hero. At the little oupost, they could choose between vineyards where you can recruits vineyards guards and that gives you money, a merchant outpost, there you can recruit neutral merchants, so enemy can't attack him and you have to sell it in enemy camp and, finally a little watchtower

             The late game; in the later game, dorwinion could recruit their strong units, the Thorns Guards and Bladorthin swords both elven elites units.
•3) The Men:

             The beginning; There, dorwinion would be a military faction focused on  numerous units, their units count 10 mens but they are less strong than elves but at a lower price. There at the outpost they recruit elite elves and one hero.

             The late game; in the later game, dorwinion could recruit their strong units, the Vintners court guards, and the prrt i don't know :P
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 17. Dez 2016, 17:35
I agree with you Lord Elessar. Personally the Two blue wizards Romestamo and Mornhitar would fit here as well as many other "lords" Daeron would be an added choice for the elves, as well as Morwe and Nurwe. As for the men, Bladorthin II or someone, I don't know, they would have to be made up and that is what I was counting on Edain to do. Because the East is so mysterious, it is the perfect place for the Blue Wizards and any remaining things left in middle earth.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 18. Dez 2016, 16:52
Maybe Diewalkure, you could merge this with the Dorwinion Proposal?
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: Walküre am 18. Dez 2016, 17:43
Maybe Diewalkure, you could merge this with the Dorwinion Proposal?

Sure.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 18. Dez 2016, 17:59
To Diewalkure, thank you.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 24. Dez 2016, 02:23
I shall now present my proposal for a Dorwinion fraction. Firstly, two disclaimers:
1. I have beem heavily inspired by Divide and Conuqer's interpretation of Dorwinion
2. I shall ignore semi canonical names, as I can't be bothered to research them; feel free to improve my suggestion with them however

I propose at the beginning of the game a Dowinion player selects from two sub-fractions, in a similar manner to the Dwarfs; they either pick the Vinyard Court or the Cult of the Shadow. This is becuase, assuming the other mystery fraction is an Evil Men fraction, we will have 5 evil and 5 good fractions; and hence I believe Dorwinion should be gray. The theme of Dorwinion is an architecture style based on Ancient Greece; the nation has never really fought in or started a conflict and hence they are a mercantile nation that is highly culture; with the advent of Rhun however it looks increasingly likely that Rhun will invade and annex the Land of Wine and hence Dorwinion enters into a civil war. One fraction, the Cult of the Shadow, believes standing aginst Rhun will result in Dorwinion's destruction; and there is little they can do to stop Rhun, and by extent Sauron, and hence they align themselves with Sauron. The Vinyard Court however believes that by allying with the Avari Elves and the Orcani Dwarfs, Dorwinion can stand against the Shadow and make a diffrence. This civil war has also affected the Blue Wizards with Alatar siding with the Cult and Pallando with the Court. I believe by splitting up the Wizards it allows us to have two powerful heroes in the same fraction, if they were both avalaible for recuirtment at once they could not be as powerful, in addtion it allows us to position the CUlts as evil, keeping with the themes of Middle-Earth. To upgrade their buildings Dorwinion uses a spell. The Court is defensive with a focus on caverly while the cult is agressive and a focuse on infantry.

Dorwinion is a walled castle nation, and on their castle they can build the following: Villa- Decreases cost of heavy infantry; Tooler- Descreases cost of Cavarly and contains forged blade upgrade; Infantry Academy- Trains Hoplites and Long Blades, contains the Banner Carrrier uprgrade; Specialist Acadmey- Trains Companion Caverly (Switch between lance and sword, no shield) and Archers and contains flaming arrows and pure bloodlines (Better horses- New Texture for the Horse) upgrades; Engineering Academy- Allows the contsruction of Engineers (Can build towers, onogers and battering rams outside castle) , improved engineering (Heavy armour for siege quipment), fire arrows upgrade for buildings, and heavy armour upgrades; heroic statute; plaza (Place to drink wine- heals units); Vinyard Court (Court only)- Trains Paladins (Elite unit- 3 limit) and Templers (Heavily armoured Hoplites that can change between sword, spear and bow via stance command), as well as a second uprgarde for armour provided by the elves, the Avari Armour upgrade (Gives units gold armour), vine clad walls upgrade (New texture for walls and towers adn gate + automatically heal towers and walls and gate+ more armour), it also acts as a tower; Cult Encalve (Cult only)- Trains Druids (Healers) and Cultits (Long ranged spellcasters that deal heavy damge, in other words shoot fire); gives the enchanted blade upgrade as a second tier, enchanted walls (Adds aura of fear on walls, towers and gate), acts as a tower and model is a greek temple;
Wall Buildings are:
Tower, Wine Fountain (Heals units), Mirror tower (Court, acts as long range siege by redirecting and enhancing sun rays), Cult tower (Cult, shoots fire), Gate buildings are heroic statues, and Posten Gate

On external plots Dorwinion can build: Outposts: Rebel Stronghold (Cult only, uses Rohan Fortress from 3.8, with uprgrades)- Trains very agressive rebel units (Rebel Horsemen, Rebel Infantry [Can switch between sword and Javalins], Rebel Axmen (Building destroyers), and the rebel lord Selene (Female mass slayer); Avari Stronghold (Court Only, uses Elven stronghold from BFME II with uprgrades)- Trains Avari Units (Mounted archers and Mounted Lancers) and two heroes, the Avari Lord Dalenmean; and the Ambassador of Mirkwoord Tauriel. The other outpost building is the normal outpost.   
Settlements: Estate, Vinyard, Orcani Bastion (Court)- Trains Dreor Lord of the Orcani and Orcani Nobles, acts as a tower and upgrades similarly to Grey HEavens Tower only with exp from kills; Milita Stockade- Trains milita (Free units of equal quality to orcs) and Fendro LEader of Milita , Unit supporter of milita, and acts as a tower

Heroes from the castle are:
Court- Slyvana Herald of the Elves (Scout) who summons Elven Herals (Mounted) permently with limit of 2; Havar, Paladin of the Court- Unit Supporter; Mentora, Female Paladin of the Court- Unit and Hero interferer; Vromtag, Royal Guard of the EMpress- Hero Killer; The Empersd- Fraction wide supporter; Pallando- Building suppoerter and Mass slayer
Cult- Turlough, Infiltator- Scout and Unit Interferer; Cakvor, Druid Leader- Unit supporter; Gortug, Cult Leader- Mass slayer; Ajax, Rebel Son of the Emperess- Mass slayer/ Hero Killer; Alaatr- Hero killer, unit interferer
Ring heroes are the Wizrds and the Fraction leaders

Spells:
Row 1- Authority of the Royal Line (Upgrades building, one use from 1 -> 2; two uses from 2 -> 3); Dorwinion Wine (Heals); Horns of the East (Horns spell)
Row 2- Hills of Dorwinion (Landscape spell that buffs your and allys units);Arrow volley ; Lone Tower; "Into the East" (Upgrades Wizard hero)
Row 3- Glory of the Edain (Weather spell that buffs your own units and leaves the enemy units in terror); Dalian Allies (Summons small force from Dale- no heroes); March of the Ent-Wives (Summon Ent-Wives; can be used as some may have fled to area around Dorwinion)
Row 4- Allies from Afar ([Cult] Summons massive force from Rhun led by the Emperor/ [Court] Summons force of Mirkwood ELves, Men of Dale, and dwarfs of Erebor led by King Dain, King Brand and Thraundil); Glory of the First Age- Imbues selected units with increases strength and immortality for a short time     
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: Fredius am 24. Dez 2016, 02:32
I actually love your idea lordoflinks! This makes the faction very interesting and different from the others. Especially the Blue Wizards, they might have killed each other in the civil war, and therefore never returned to the Undying Lands! Though I wouldn't use iconic historical names like Hoplites, Templars or Ajax; Middle-Earth is a fantasy realm and should remain like that. Also:

Zitat
The Court is defensive with a focus on caverly while the cult is agressive and a focuse on infantry.

Cavalry isnt really a defensive specialty :P, but rather offensive. Though I like your current unit roster.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 24. Dez 2016, 02:55
Thank you, for loving my ideas.
My image of the Court is that they're fraction that builds up a solid defence and sends cavalry out to harass and burn their opponents buildings while holding out before moving to crush them with their infantry, while the Cult is more of a horde spam fraction. 
If you have better name suggestions please add them. All names are subject to renaming by those more skilled in the linguistics of middle earth than I am; perhaps Vinyard Guard for the Templers, and Vinyard Paladins. Hoplites I feel is as generic as a term as pikemen and gives Dorwinion an unique flavour, heroes names are of course up to debate barring Tauriel who we all know is from the Hobbit Movies.
I have added fortress upgrades and wall buildings to Dorwinion.
I will say this much, coming up with spells for Dorwinion was a pain, hence why I have resorted to two spells based on the first age. Allies from Afar summons different units based on which sub-fraction you pick, as it is possible to change the effect of a spell in a dwarf like system.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 24. Dez 2016, 08:22
I actually like this idea LordofLinks, I think I can get behind a divided Dorwinion faction. However, I see some issues with the lore of heroes and historical units names. We'll work on that but this is a really good start.

I have a massive list of characters we could use, though I like the men that LordofLinks made up, I do suggest that Lenwe may be a possible candidate for "The Court" side. Since Pallando should be weaker, it might be nice having Lenwe or Daeron (since he went to the East...FACT) helping Pallando (Romestamo) out.

Although, it never says the Blue wizards were allied to Sauron, but if what you present is Alatar becoming more like Saruman, I am okay with--but I think we may be shifting too far from the canon of the Blue Wizards, after all, they failed but they were the best of friends. While we could "ASSUME" they had a falling out like Gandalf and Saruman, it is a big assumption.

I understand that we try to give Sauron as many Maia allies as possible in middle earth, but I am not too sure about Alatar given his nickname from Tolkien was Darkness Slayer. So Darkness Slayer seems like an odd name if he is working with the Dark Lord.

I am all for your idea, but there needs to be some canonical issues flushed out man. Good job overall!
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 24. Dez 2016, 10:03
I actually like this idea LordofLinks, I think I can get behind a divided Dorwinion faction. However, I see some issues with the lore of heroes and historical units names. We'll work on that but this is a really good start.

I have a massive list of characters we could use, though I like the men that LordofLinks made up, I do suggest that Lenwe may be a possible candidate for "The Court" side. Since Pallando should be weaker, it might be nice having Lenwe or Daeron (since he went to the East...FACT) helping Pallando (Romestamo) out.

Although, it never says the Blue wizards were allied to Sauron, but if what you present is Alatar becoming more like Saruman, I am okay with--but I think we may be shifting too far from the canon of the Blue Wizards, after all, they failed but they were the best of friends. While we could "ASSUME" they had a falling out like Gandalf and Saruman, it is a big assumption.

I understand that we try to give Sauron as many Maia allies as possible in middle earth, but I am not too sure about Alatar given his nickname from Tolkien was Darkness Slayer. So Darkness Slayer seems like an odd name if he is working with the Dark Lord.

I am all for your idea, but there needs to be some canonical issues flushed out man. Good job overall!
On the topic of the Blue Wizards; firstly I may have simplified things a bit too much for the sake of not having to write too much; what I mean is that both wizards wish for Sauron to fall; however one looks at the big picture and sees Dorwinion is far from any allies bar small strongholds of elves and dwarfs and makes the decision that if Dorwinion goes to war innocent lives will be lost for no purpose; as according to him Dorwinion can make no difference and he may even know the true battle will lie with Gondor and Mordor. The other wishes to make a stand, and refuses to grant any concession to the Shadow; even if it means the loss of innocent lives for little purpose. In this context I feel it makes little difference which wizard is on which side, as they are both right and  both wrong. I subscribe to Tolkien's original work; when they came with the other Istari and not before, and hence I believed they failed which is evidenced by the ascendancy of Rhun and the siege of Erebor I feel; because if they were capable of helping why did they allow Rhun to grow powerful enough to assault both Erebor and Gondor at the same time. To summarise the 'evil' wizard is not evil; rather they pursue a just goal of preserving as many lives as possible, when their sacrifice would be in vain, even if it means bowing to the enemy.

Edit names as you will; the only point I will not budge on is that I think Dorwinion should have slightly more female heroes, to increase its uniqueness, hence why the ruler of the Court side is an Empress. I feel Lenwe as a hero is inappropriate as he stopped then journey just west of the Misty Mountains in the sight of them; hence he probably joined Lothlorien or Mirkwood. Daeron could be the herald; I do however think it would be a nice touch to have Tauriel as a permanent hero in this fraction in the Avari stronghold. On the point of unit names, as we are dealing with a region of the world that has less information than Rhun, (I think evem the Ice men of Lossarnac have more info about them than Dorwinion) I think we do have to make compromises if we wish to craft them into an unique fraction, however as the one thing we know about them is that they produce wine it leads me to believe they are implied to be inspired from Ancient Greece, if they have an inspiration at all.

If you do have alternative names, please suggest them, I felt the names I picked, bar heroes and Templars (To which I've suggested the alternative name of Vinyard Guard), (Paladin is okay as the definition is "a knight renowned for heroism and chivalry."; they do not need to be 'holy') I feel the names strike a balance between lore and gameplay as there is no point calling something an obscure world in sindarin as you can't recognise it at first glance which is bad for multiplayer. One word about cannoicalness; I feel we need to take it into lesser acount when dealing with areas such as Rhun, Agmar and Dorwinion due to the lack of information available; for instance if Angamr was completely 'cannon' we would not have the wonderful Angmar fraction we do.
Once again if you have better names, spit them out and we can debate about them.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 24. Dez 2016, 16:15
LordofLinks.

I think your proposal is still perfect, and like you I do subscribe to Tolkien's work as well. In regards to which wizard supports who, I remember that Romestamo means (East-helper) that could mean Pallando is the bad wizard and not Alatar. Pallando could be the wizard for the cult of shadow, would make sense since he wields a scimitar in 3.81 more of an eastern weapon.

After much thought and research however, I see why you chose Alatar as the bad wizard and I agree. So don't count what I just wrote above. Pallando, is of Namo's people so obviously he would see the future and folly of serving the dark lord. He would then further taint himself during the dominion of men hence he could not return to Valinor either. Perhaps he would then try to become a mighty king himself in the 4th age since he foresaw this as the dominion of weak men.

I agree that they failed and started "cults" that which you have demonstrated perfectly. I will get totally 100% behind your idea if we decide to put Pallando with the Cult of the Shadow. I think that is the best compromise, it shows how the blue wizards failed and started cults, and it also goes with Tolkien Gateway to how they drew forces off from the east.

I also agree that they came in TA 1000 with the other istari and not in the Second Age. That seems stupid. Why tolkien thought about them arriving then is really weird.

On the subject of Lenwe, he did not go west. He saw the MM and went South of the Anduin river. He then turned back. If you follow South of the Anduin and where he turned back, that about puts him next to the Rhun Forest & canoncially next to Dorwinion.

The elves that went to Mirkwood were remnants of the Green Elves that Denethor had left over from Beleriand during the First Age. So Lenwe wouldn't be right there. It would make sense as Denethor eventually died. It never says Lenwe died (he's an immortal elf). So to say that he is at Dorwinion is not that far fetched at all and I think this is okay.

Now I will throw out heroic names and you can decide where they go.

The Court:
Pallando (Since he is of Namo's people, I could see him here, especially if Daeron and Lenwe are included).
Tauriel (Herald of the Elves)
Daeron (Paladin of the Court/Unit Supporter) fits perfectly for him.
Lenwe (Hero Killer)
Insert Female Name here* (The Empress)

The Cult of Shadow:
Alatar (Mass Slayer, but I think he should have some hero killer aspect, he is the Chief of Orome's people...Lords of the Hunt).
Bladorthin II (Perhaps he is the rebel son of the Empress)
Onya (Druid Leader perhaps)

(not too good with female names, though I can give you a list at this link here: http://www.darkshire.net/jhkim/rpg/lordoftherings/names.pdf )
For the rest of the heroes just use canonical names from the list above.

I think that link will solve all our issues. This is perfect and I think it is ready to be implemented (if Edain cares that is  ;) ).
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 29. Dez 2016, 13:41
Your ideas sound wonderful, with two exceptions. Firstly I loved the stroke of genius of making one of the paladins an elf, such a move suggests the court side is more open to other races; while the cult is more xenophobic as it is solely compiled of human heroes. About the Blue Wizards; to tell the truth I just picked them at random so any fitting by names is by pure chance, I really don't mind which wizard goes with which side. I shall leave it up to you as you obviously know more about names than me. Before I address my problems I wish to throw an idea at you.

What would you think of making it so that the units from the academies differed depending on which side one favoured; by this I do not mean completely different units as with the dwarfs; rather court units are less numerous but more powerful, with a single ability and the ability to gain experience up to lvl 10 (The last idea may not work). This is to represent both the aid of the elves in training and crafting even basic armour and weapons, but also to hint the court's armies is made up of both elves and humans and as such can learn more; the cult units would be more numerous and less powerful and lacking the special bonus the court gets as their recruits are drawn from peasants and they lack the aid of the elves, but would be vastly cheaper and take less time to produce. To summarise the Court is quality and the Cult is quantity.

Now I shall tackle the problems I had with your ideas:
1. Whichever wizard would end up on the Cult side should be a hero killer with mass slayer elements, as I feel this counters the Court well as that wizard can massacre through their limited troops. The Court wizard is a mass slayer with hero killer elements to counter the Cult's endless tide of militia.
2. Tauriel should be recruited at the enclave. The role of the Herald is that they are an early game mounted scout that can also summon powerful early game mounted eleven troops that cannot upgrade or level up, the troops are purely to allow the Court some breathing room, as such it would be inappropriate for any bar an avari elf to occupy the role. The Herald also represents the first hand of friendship from the elves towards the court and allows the elves' presence to be felt even without an outpost.  Tauriel symbolises that Dorwinion is not alone in their fight, and other nations do care about them, in addition she is a ranged hero that the Court lacks. 

Some thematic concerns occurred to me. First I think the court side should be implied to have developed a matriarchal ruling system rather than one based on males, this highlights just how alien Dorwinion is due to its distance from other 'good' nations, hence the prince's betrayal is especially shocking and carries the implication he wishes to rule in spite of tradition. This could manifest in game by units (Especially court units) having several different voices when you select them; for example a court hoplite could  have its select lines spoken by a female and male human, and a female and male elf.

My final topic is heroes. While your ideas are very good, we need more heroes. I am wondering if there was someway we could ask the whole english community to brainstorm heroes, perhaps as a subsection in the RPG forum, with the aim of creating a roster for the Court of a mixed male/female, and elf/human and the Cult of a traditional ratio and humans only (The reasoning being that the Cult's heroes are from rural areas where traditional values still persist, and they are xenophobic towards elves in an attempt to please Rhun). Perhaps this could continue into a full blown RPG (I don't know how to run or set one up :( )

I think our final aim should be to have a finished proposal (PDF or perhaps ask the Wiki is we could create a 'dummy' page using their fraction layout) with each concept (Unit, building, spell or hero) having a image to draw inspiration from, a description, abilities and a lore justification if needed.
Also, thanks for the link and sorry for my late reply.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 29. Dez 2016, 17:01
To be honest, I didn't really read most of this thread, but since this won't attack any of my following points, it doesn't matter for this. Well, I think, Dorwinion sounds like a horrible idea. ;)

First of all, we know nothing about it, apart from speculations and to build an entire faction on the basis of fan-fiction, must be my top worst idea of the day. Dorwinion is one of those realms which are nice for the sake of completeness of a world, but simply aren't explained well enough. Which brings me to number 2:
Dorwinion is / was ENTIRELY noninvested in every war, Edain is built around. Since we know a lot of things about the Easterlings or Haradrim and since they participated a lot in numerous wars (and since Mordor doesn't necessarily need them...), they are an excellent idea. I could litereally vote for "Hobbits and Unicorns", claim that I only voted for the Unicorns and still "support" an idea that is just as relevant for any event in the WotR. I mean seriously: Forodwaith? [uglybunti]
Thirdly, from no point of view at all, Tolkien was really interested in creating a relatable / realistic world with morally grey people -he reinvented the Devil, what do you expect? His entire philosophy requires good and evil to be seperate entities with empty intersection (perhaps with the exception that good things can partly be corrupted), thus a neutral faction is completely not in line with any canon. And yes, I'm the same guy who just pointed out, that he thinks, "canonizing" destroys more then it helps. However, this argument doesn't really hold here, since a) there is a more elegant way and b) giving the player the choice between "Vineyard Court" and "Cult of the Shadow" sounds like giving Mordor the opportunity to become the savior of ME. The name alone is enough for me to not take this faction serious, also I feel reminded on Warhammer stuff, which is definitely a bad sign in this context. :D

I know myself, that I phrased this more extreme than necessary, but in a way I guess this is my honest opinion.


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: Voted for "Hobbits and Unicorns"!
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: Fredius am 29. Dez 2016, 19:15
That's a bit rude don't you think? These guys have put in a lot of thoughts into their concept, and you call it the worst idea of the day, while you even say that you didn't read the whole thread?? Why isn't it possible for Dorwinion to be neutral? They are located right next to Rhun (http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/maps/dorwinion.gif) (if not inside of Rhun itself, since Rhun just means east and encompasses multiple clans), but they trade with the Elves of Mirkwood, and possibly with the "Evil" kingdoms of Rhun as well. There is nothing wrong with neutrality, they might have had to pick a side during the War of the Ring, but then if you read the last posts a bit better then you know that the current proposed Dorwinion faction isn't neutral anylonger, but rather in a civil war, which forces them to pick sides.

Since they lay right next to Rhun, it can be entirely possible that there were people inside Dorwinion who sympathized more with Rhun, and rather choose to fight for them. And ofcourse there are people who sympathize with the Elves living in Dorwinion (yes there might have been Elves there, I suggest this article (http://middle-earth.xenite.org/2011/10/19/was-dorwinion-an-elf-kingdom/) to everyone), and rather choose to fight for them instead. This is a very possible scenario, and the guys who made this proposal did a great job in trying to make this gameplay wise possible, and make it a very unique faction that differs from the rest.

I don't think you should judge a proposal because of the names for the different elements. Names are always up to debate, and if you don't like Vineyard Court and Cult of the Shadow then why not just come up with new ideas, so that you can take this proposal "seriously"?

Personally I agree with you that I'd rather see Harad and Rhun become seperate, but it does not mean that people can't think of other ideas different from ours.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: Walküre am 29. Dez 2016, 22:20
I know myself, that I phrased this more extreme than necessary, but in a way I guess this is my honest opinion.

And honest opinions are always welcome. Just, if one were really aimed to give a meaningful contribution to the discussion, it should be better to go through proposals very carefully and consider the particular context of said proposals. In this case, the main concept was born while taking for granted that the hypothetical Evil Men faction will be a single faction, which is something I support and of which I understand the reasons: a more concrete chance to stick to the atmosphere of the cinematographic trilogy and thus to make usage of the elements we are already provided with, without the need to tamper with the faction via too much fictional additions. In this perspective, it's quite obvious that, on the other hand, this proposed Dorwinion faction will inexorably need some fictional additions whatsoever, given the scarcity of many sources. This fact shouldn't surprise anyone then.

Furthermore, it's the very presence of this sort of exceptions (a neutral realm and a mixed culture) that makes Arda realistic. The eternal conflict between Good and Evil does occupy a fundamental position, but that doesn't mean that others things can't take place in the meantime, as a secondary narration beside the central theme of the story. Even more, I would say, if we deal with the universe of Men or of those mysterious lands of the East. It's exactly this enigmatic touch that grants them their particular connotation: voluble people that can't be ordered precisely neither within the Good's ranks, nor within the Evil's ones. Just think about the condition of those Men who happen to serve Sauron and how their case is completely different to the one of Orcs. In this sense, this quotation of Faramir always reminds me of Middle-earth's (Men's) multicoloured nature.

Zitat
The enemy? His sense of duty was no less than yours, I deem. You wonder what his name is, where he came from. And if he was really evil at heart. What lies or threats led him on this long march from home. If he would not rather have stayed there in peace. War will make corpses of us all.

In the end, proposals may always be improved and perfected. More important than the final result is perhaps the fact that multiple people strive to share their thoughts and find a just compromise. Otherwise, if one is just willing to belittle other people's concepts (often regardless of those people's efforts), one had better keep one's opinions for oneself.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 30. Dez 2016, 01:47
OK, since I am responsible for this, some things might need clarification.
First of all, it is completely and utterly uninmportant that I didn't read the last pages with respect to me thinking, Dorwinion is an extremely bad idea for a faction! I could possibly explained this more, but all the reasons mentioned above are independant of not knowing the past discussion (that is in three short terms: speculation, uninvolvement in the WotR and "grey faction").
Secondly, I called the idea of using fan-fiction as the basis of the concept the worst idea of the day, not the entire concept. I might point out, that I like certain units in the concept, like the Rebel Infantry and Engineers, but even if that's the case: They'd be better off with the Men of the East. If we really need this, I might add as well that things like fire-throwing Cultists / Towers sound... well... over-the-top might be the right term.
And yes, I have to concede, that names are open to change.



One thing in general: What if you read a proposal and think that it simply has no place in the mod? This isn't even restricted to this concept, quite the contrary! Really, what do you do then? The thing is, if I read a concept and the core-idea is just not for me, which means any base for compromise doesn't exist, I can't find a logical idea to "give it a try", so to speak. This isn't personal, but in a way really writing elaborate criticism about this would require me to say, "well, first change everything, untill we have another concept, then we may talk again". ;) And this in itself is hardly a constructive way of arguing, thus I prefer getting to the point immediately. Because it literally doesn't help anyone, if the core message gets buried under 4 paragraphs of text, all open to interpretation.

To conclude, some specifix answers:
Zitat
In this perspective, it's quite obvious that, on the other hand, this proposed Dorwinion faction will inexorably need some fictional additions whatsoever, given the scarcity of many sources. This fact shouldn't surprise anyone then.
Yes, I agree. "Some fictional additions" as you said are however something completely different than a faction, were every single unit and hero is fictional! The entire setting is speculation (civil war), the entire unit roster is fictional (partly well designed, partly badly designed) and the entire hero roster is fictional. I could also argue, that it is "uncanonical" (Gosh, I hate this word! xD) for one obvious reason: The prominence of female heroes which are extremely minor in Tolkien's works WITH RESPECT TO THEIR PRESENCE IN BATTLE. (I felt forced to write this in capitals, otherwise Walküre might have destroyed me. ;))

Zitat
In this sense, this quotation of Faramir always reminds me of Middle-earth's (Men's) multicoloured nature.......
Yes... About that, it appears, that I forgot about that quote... 8-| I might also add, that this might be one of Tolkien's legendary "write this, say this"-moments: Faramir says, there the Men of the East aren't intrinsically evil -eventhough during the entire history of Arda, there was at most an era of non-aggression between them and the west. Yes, he describes them as brave (much braver than orcs!), but still there was never peace or say, harmony, between east and west. It's like the elf lady we hear so much about who is said to be one of the wisest creatures and greatest leaders against Sauron in ME, eventhough she fails to check the ominous dark fortress, literally right across the Anduin, whose presence was known to her directly (Eorls ride) for 400 (!!!) years and of whose malicious interests there was no doubt.  ;) OK, Lorien-DG is 100 miles, but honestly? 400 years? And it's not like the elves were doing much during this time. Seriously, in 1617, Newton hadn't even published his Axiom's, thus physics was basically just philosophy. (Of course, that's not my point and obviously hyperbole! My point is, that Tolkien did this more than once, where someone is said to be something, he / she really isn't, coming to think about. :D)



To end this perhaps with an offer: Do you really want me to continue arguing about this? As I was saying, I don't see any basis for this, apart from checking which parts could find use elsewhere. I don't specifically mind, but I don't think it's getting us anywhere. And it's certainly more delightfull to not constantly read my slightly sarcastic comments. xD
I don't see this as a rejection, but there is really not much room for argument here!

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 30. Dez 2016, 04:18
@Melkor Bauglir
Greetings. To you I would like to say this; if you wish to comment on an idea negatively then do so like this "I do not support this proposal, as I feel it is non-canonical and does not fit"; that is all, a rant accomplishes nothing; feel free to offer constructive criticism. If you are getting angry at a 'non-canonical' fraction however, I wish you to view Angmar, as that fraction is just as non-canonical as this proposal in terms of the heroes and men of Carn-Dum.
To answer a few specific points:

Cultists- They are intended to be 'over the top' as Tolkien always has associated actual magic, the fire ball kind, with evil; yes if they were good it would be inappropriate but they are not; personally I don't see them any more wrong than the loremasters and sorcerers of Angmar; plus they offer a unique siege mechanic. 

Female Heroes- Dorwinion is isolated, and as it does not appear very much in the histories; it has likely experienced a long era of peace; as such I have envisioned this, coupled with eleven influence, has allowed traditional gender roles to break down in the nobility, I do not argue this has extended to the peasants, (And indeed the 'peasant' fraction, the cult has a more traditional ratio) but rather in the upper class it has become more accepted for a woman to become a knight; due to the fact prior to the speculated civil war the role was little more then symbolic in terms of fighting actual enemies, that is not to say they did not train.  I feel such flavour only in the court side increases the diversity of fractions. 

If you have specific constructive advice, please share it; to appease your comments so far would require a completely new proposal. If you have no constructive advice, please refrain from anything more; others have said what I would have bar one more thing. The chance of any idea in the off-topic section working its way into the mod is very very remote, so in all likelihood your wish shall come to pass. 
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 30. Dez 2016, 04:19
Well I have heard everyone's thoughts on the matter and I won't be as truculent as Melkor, when expressing my opinions.

Diewalkure, LordofLinks, and Fredius thanks for the support. I feel LordofLinks struck gold and I edited my post...I wonder why it didn't save. But to LordofLinks, I totally support the idea that Alatar is with the Cult of Shadow and that the Cult is more xenophobic than the Court. Hence is why I suggested the Court having more elf related heroes, if you need more heroes, I can definitely pull out more elf characters in that region.

Now Lordoflinks, in regards to the quality vs quantity, I can get behind this, however I would like to see differing units just to make the faction feel different from the good side and evil side. I would like to build on what you have proposed (which was a good idea) and go from there. I agree we should get Edain Wiki involved.

Now Melkor, you said you voted for Hobbits and Unicorns. I can honestly say from a canonical standpoint that the Blue Wizards, to be playable with a faction, would have to go here. They failed in their mission, but based on the appendixes, lost tales, notes, and interviews of Tolkien, we can only surmise what the Blue Wizards did and who they were with.

Dorwinion offers us the answer we need. You may not like the idea at all but I think it is a great addition to offer something as close to Tolkien's canon as possible and implement the blue wizards.

Let us see what we know from the canon Melkor:

1. Dorwinion is an area in the East
2. The Blue Wizards went to the East
3. Lenwe went South of the Anduin before turning back
4. Daeron went into the East.
5. Bladorthin was a King of a Kingdom in the East and ordered many spears for his armies. They were never paid for or delivered (probably till after Smaug was killed).
6. Bladorthin died sometime in the Third Age as referenced by the Dwarfs and Bilbo.
7. Dorwinion is still an area that managed to survive despite Bladorthin's death as referenced by the book the Hobbit.

So there are many canonical elements implemented here. If you dislike the fact that LordofLinks presented a female roster, we could change it around a bit. I agree that a King is more befitting of Dorwinion, but I do not object to having more females in the hero roster, (I'm not sexist--not saying you are, just being loquacious in general).

Angmar was made up of such elements as presented. We have what canon is available and are building on it. If what you say were to be implemented, we would have to take away Angmar, as they are just not canonical enough.

So all in all, I like the concept of the Dorwinion faction. Melkor, you are right that the civil war is completely made up, but it is not out of the realm of possibility since

A) Gondor had a civil war
B) Numenor had their differences
C) Dorwinion's region would have to be this way given that Mordor, Rhun, Erebor, etc. all lie around and near them.
D) They trade with everyone (as referenced in Lost Tales)
E) Avari Elves and Men make up the region.

So I do not feel this is entirely inaccurate but is as close to canon as possible, hence the canonical characters listed.

LordofLinks, I don't know if you would be interested in these elf names, but these are elves that disappeared or may still be around:

Galathil (Celeborn's brother)
Nellas
Nimrodel
Mithrellas
Morwe (more from the notes)
Nurwe (again from the notes)

as for men, we would have to make them up using the canon of tolkien's linguistics as referenced by that site i sent you guys.

Continue the good work and I am still in favor of this.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 30. Dez 2016, 07:11
I shall comply a word document of the current ideas that we change as needed for now; but I think we should inquire about creating a fan page on the wiki so it is easy to edit it as needed. I shall inquire.
In terms of rulers of Dorwinion what about a compromise; we set the beginning of the civil war prior to the beginning of the wotr; and have the royal family possess eleven blood. Have the male leader of the cult fraction declare himself a king while keeping the leader of the Court the emperess; that way we have diversity between the fractions rather than two kings. The only problem with Bladorthin is that he dies before the time period we have to use; so if we were to use him as the rebel leader we would need to bend cannon a bit. Other heroes I think we should call others to brainstorm for diversity; such as the Edain team did with the Angamr heroes; whether if it is through a RPG or not is up to you.
In terms of units I feel the units from the academies should be very similar if they are different units to highlight the fact that the two sides are part of the same nation rather than two diffrent nations.
R
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 30. Dez 2016, 16:15
LordofLinks, what you say is fine. Bladorthin II is not the same as Bladorthin I, he was just a name for the Rebel leader.

As for the ruler of the Court Dorwinions I don't care if it is a Queen or a King. I don't feel we need to set the civil war before the WOTR as I feel that would be un-canonical. During the events of WOTR, Sauron put pressure on all the kingdoms (evidence of this by him offering King Dain II a ring of power). So I feel the need to separate as Sauron presses on the Kingdoms of the West WOULD be implemented at this time.

I do agree that the Court has to be more of an elvish ruling class. Dorwinion IMHO is mostly an elf faction (as evidenced by the books) though it has a melting pot of everything else with it (kinda like Imladris).

The Avari are very numerous, so I am still in favor of your quality proposal, but I don't feel they should be as qualitied up like Imladris, they should be like a Gondor and Lothlorien hybrid.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 30. Dez 2016, 21:29
Ah; I did not see the II.
I only mean the war starts a year or so before the beginning of the WotR; just so the sides are more established. I do not mean something like 20 years.
It seems likely the Wiki will allow us to comply fraction concepts on it; so I suggest we wait for that go ahead before doing anything more. 
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 30. Dez 2016, 21:34
Sounds good LordofLinks. To further solidify our position on this faction and maybe convince Melkor as well, here is a link that talks about Dorwinion being mostly an elf kingdom and further solidifies our stance of Dorwinion being a melting pot of cultures.

Perfect area for the Blue wizards!

http://middle-earth.xenite.org/2011/10/19/was-dorwinion-an-elf-kingdom/

http://middle-earth.xenite.org/2014/05/02/what-happened-to-the-elves-who-remained-in-the-east/

Read these carefully, it would seem that maybe Numenor did have contact with Rhun...so our discussion of the fortress may not be as far off as we think.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 1. Jan 2017, 02:25
Also LordofLinks, why couldn't the empress be evil? Out of curiosity, what is your bases for having an empress as the leader of Dorwinion? I'm just curious. Let me know when you have that PDF up so we can all take a look at it.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 1. Jan 2017, 07:25
Regarding the Empress, the reasoning is that many kingdoms in Middle-Earth have kings; Gondor, Dale, the Dwarfs, Rohan, the Woodland Elves; so by making the natrual ruler of Dorwinion an Empress it increases the feeling that the realm is alien due to the fact its a melting-pot; one because of the title and the other due to the fact the leader is female which is unheard of out of the eleven kingdoms and even rare within them. It also alludes to the trope of eastern fantasy realms, regardless of size or aggression, being ruled by Emperors/Empress. In addition if the female leader was 'evil' she would have to be a queen; as the evil leader is in an alliance with Rhun and as such the Emperor of Rhun (There can be no other title for him) would never tolerate the leader he is helping to gain control of Dorwinion to have equal status to him. I feel it is more lore appropriate to have the female be good; as I fear Rhun would not even ally with a female, as I've always got the feeling they are the sort of people to have harems.

As a side note the reason why the Court Side of Dorwinion is focused on cavalry, and why they get a bloodline upgrade as opposed to horse shields is due to the human element's shared ancestry with the people of Rohan. In fact now I think about it it is also fitting, for the same reason, Rohan and Dorwinion share the onager.

While I'm addressing you, I've asked about the possibility of using a dwarf system for the evil men in the asking thread so hopefully we can get an answer as I fear until we do we cannot move ahead with two very different proposals.

Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 1. Jan 2017, 09:07
I present the compilation of our ideas so far:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-eovbYCDL9OQ2t5c2VHd25CVWM/view?usp=sharing
Heroes are missing for the most part; as I feel we need to debate more on them, and units are in the same position.
I think I am happy with the buildings we have, and the spells although I think I, at least, would like to replace arrow volley and lone tower. Any ideas?
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 1. Jan 2017, 11:59
Jeeze LordofLinks, this is professionally done. I have some suggestions for heroes and for some spells under row 2.

I suggest for lone tower, instead of having this power as a 2 power point spell I think it should take 3 power points (but still be in row 2). With that said, here is what I believe can go in that power slot:

For the Cult of Shadow (since there is a lot of water in this region) I can only foresee something just as enigmatic to the dark faction and I would say what is summoned are Mewlips (evil swamp like creatures that Tolkien wrote about, perfect for a summon spell).

For the Vinyard Court I was thinking Lintips (we have no idea what they are and Edain Team could have fun creating this).

Also, I don't know how "Into the East" should be an upgrade for the Blue Wizards, I mean, it is not like they could forge their own items (like Saruman) and it is not like they got upgraded by the Valar (like Gandalf), so if this power was to be implemented to the blue wizards, I would see something individual for both.

For Pallando, perhaps he gains a magical tome that increases the damage of his spells and his recharge times are reduced.

For Alatar, he gains a Longbow and weapons that make him out to be more of a hunter like what he was as Chief of Orome's people.

I think having a unique power for both wizards is cool and needed--but the individual differences based on the power makes it unique to both. I feel this should be added.

All in all very good work here LordofLinks, I am impressed and Edain Team should be too!

As for heroes, I will elaborate on the Vinyard Court as that would be the most canonical with names, Cult of Shadow is going to be a little harder however.

Anyhow, one of the things missing on your list is where to build Ent-Wives, are they just a summon spell that stick around? If so then I suggest a hero to be implemented with them either for building or summoning and that is Fimbrethil

So the heroes I could see for the Vinyard Court that fullfill the roles that you would have are as follows:

Empress (come up with a name, if you want a canonical elf female I can give you that):
Daeron:
Lenwe:
Pallando:
Tauriel:
Fimbrethil:

Any humans we will have to make up but this is a good start with the Court.

For Cult of Shadows:

Alatar
Bladorthin II

(How about you give me a list of all the hero slots you want filled with both the Court and Cult heroes and I will have a list of names ready for you some may or may not be canonical though) I feel if we compile this together it would help a lot.

Give me your vision of the amount hero slots filled what race and job you want them to do and I'll try to find solutions to both of those.

Overall this is the best presentation that I have seen in a long time. Very impressive. Would love to see one with Rhun/Harad as well if you have the time.

Also I just re-read your document (cause I love it that much) and I don't feel the Ent Wives would ally to the Cult of Shadow (having had their vinyards/gardens burned in the Second Age). So what could go for this power and be for the Cult of Shadow?

I was thinking of calling this power (Allied Enigmas) and basically for the Court it summons the Ents as you suggested, and for Cult it summons Gargoyles (as written by JRR in concern of the Mewlips which was fleeting). Let me know if this is too far off from canon but tolkien DID write about these creatures. If you hate the idea let me know. We can always subsitute Evil Huorns for Ent Wives, that might be more appropriate anyways...
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 1. Jan 2017, 13:45
You should be able to edit the document.
Power points I did not specify, I shall leave them to people who know balancing. If you could do that; it would be great. 
Perhaps a spell named "Supernatural Allies" for the Mewlips and the Lintips; if you feel it is a good idea replace arrow volley with it and add the units to the list; as any new units we have (Even temporary spell ones) have to be added there so we can describe them and show an image. Brilliant idea to have an Ent-Wife hero; that is a stroke of genius, she can be summoned along with the other for a short time.
Into the East would turn the Wizards into their forms after the civil war; so Pallando could become "the blessed" (by the Valar) so he could bring peace and  Alatar becomes "the Fallen." My idea is more "saruman of many colours" spell where it is just a passive boost to mirror the other wizards system, not adding any abilities (Not to hate, but I don't think a wizard would wield a bow) and as the spell has a unique effect depending on which sub-fraction you pick it benefits them in different ways. Actually perhaps it could upgrade one thing, a leadership aura; before the upgrade they could have similar auras but afterwards Pallando's becomes more powerful while Alatar's changes to scare enemies.

In terms of heroes I see it this way:
Court (Hero Focused):
Scout (Elven Herald)
2 Paladins
2 Other Heroes (Hoplite? Companion Cavalry? Long-Blade? Vinyard Guard?)
Emperess (I feel no name is needed here; have it symbolise she has give all her being to ruling Dorwinion so she only goes by her title)
Pallando (Mass Slayer to counter cult spam)
Dwarf Lord
Avari Lord
Tauriel
There needs to be a good mix of elven and human; and male and female (Perhaps one paladin is female and one of the 'other' heros)
Cult:
Scout
Warrior
Cult Leader
Bladorthin II
Alatar (Hero Slayer to counter court's fewer but more powerful units)
Miltia leader
Rebel Leader
No elven leaders or female leaders bar one- cult leader is female dark numerorian sorceress from Umbar who is serves Sauron somewhat but true loyalties lie with Umbar and cult of Melkor. Presents herself as an ally to Alatar (Good numerorian) but is secretly shaping the cults to worship Melkor and defy Sauron without him knowing. Invokes parellels to fall of Numeor.

Regarding Ent-Wives; even though they serve the light we must remember the cult side is made up of three groups: peasants who just want to live in peace, nobles who wish to ally with Rhun and Sauron and the Cultists who worship Melkor secretly and in my vision the ones who helped the Ent-Wives especially were the peasants who lived near the forests; as such they would feel a heavy debt to aid the peasants.

Regarding the Mirror Tower, I feel it is very appropriate as the sun in Middle-Earth is the light of the valar and its light is the bane of Sauron's creature; by making use of the sun it alludes to the the relationship between the Valar and creatures of shadow. A possible name for the tower could be "Mirror of the Valar"

Could you please add my link to the first post with a "this is a concept being developed" message. I shall do a document of my concept of the Men of the Shadow as that is the best developed.

Something slightly offtopic but I found this:
http://merp.wikia.com/wiki/Ad%C3%BBnaphel
I am really annoyed she was not a hero for mordor as having a female nazgul would have been really unique, especially considering she was a numeorian, ruled Harad and kicked butt. If by any chance a dwarf system was adopted for the evil men I would be in favour of her leading the "Shadow of the East" spell army for Harad.

EDIT: PLEASE READ BLUEWIZARD!!
Sorry for the capitals but the link above, when you edit it creates a new link. Use this one instead: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xcv5s-WiXL8BIyM3nBzB6ecm9X8x2MGBW2WHqtN5Vmw/edit?usp=sharing;
Anyone can edit it, and it will save and others can edit the edits. Ignore the prior link. I've updated the document with a image of walls.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 1. Jan 2017, 18:28
LordofLinks, before I start editing I want to make sure you and I are both on the same page.

I have a female witch for you that is the Cult Leader, I believe it should be Beruthiel. She had many cats used as spies, she may be like Mouth of Sauron where she doesn't die, she is evil, and it said she went sailing to Umbar, her final fate is unknown.

Now I am a fan of the Blue Wizards (obviously) however, Alatar and Pallando were NOT as powerful as Gandalf the Grey. Gandalf the Grey gets no power boost outside of Gandalf the White and that is because he stayed true to his mission.

Radagast, when he was buildable in 3.81 had no power boost either, I feel this should be the same for the Blue Wizards, that is why if they do get an upgrade, then it should be a passive leadership upgrade for leading troops, or something that gives them more abilities--I do feel Alatar and Gandalf the Grey were equals in power, but what set them apart was that Gandalf was wiser and had Narya (which would make him better). So for those purposes Gandalf the Grey would be more powerful.

Therefore, I do not believe the Blue Wizards should be upgraded like Saruman or Gandalf--they just weren't as good. They are both better than Radagast, but not better than Saruman or Gandalf. I will edit the hero list soon and present stuff on Google drive, but I want to make sure that you agree with my Blue Wizard assessment.

Also, I would like to have another expert look at the Dorwinion faction, he has read Lord of the Rings over 500 times (seriously, he has). I am better with Lost Tales, Notes, Interviews, Wikis, Adventures of Tom Bombadil, and non-canon matieral. However, he is really good with the Silmarillion as well (read that over 300 times). So I would like to present your concept of Dorwinion to him and see what his input would be if that is okay?
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: Lord Aytugar am 1. Jan 2017, 21:46
It is not the time but Cult Leader must say 'Night is dark and full of terrors' :D
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 1. Jan 2017, 22:01
The current ideas for the Dorwinion faction look amazing!
For the Blue Wizards, the only concrete things we know about them is that they went to the East with Saruman, maybe started magic cults or traditions, were very good friends and that Alatar was chosen by Orome to come to Middle Earth.
Bearing this in mind, they should both be more hunter-focused that the other wizards who are more focused on support (Radagast's heal and Saruman's experience) and Mass Slaying. The wizards can still have some of these characteristics but the idea that they are chosen by Orome the Hunter should be clear with their skills.
It is not the time but Cult Leader must say 'Night is dark and full of terrors' :D
I'm not sure if Morgoth was what they had in mind for the Lord of Light, but if she ends up burning the infidels and heathens, then why not give her these quotes?
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 1. Jan 2017, 22:37
Beruthiel seems wonderful, one of her abilities could have to do with cats. BlueWizard; you are brilliant with the heroes which is why I want you to come up with ideas for them.
If you do not feel "Into the East" is appropriate feel free to come up with a replacement spell, as I for one I have struggled with that.
Feel free to show it to anyone; just make them aware that as it is a concept for a mod gameplay concessions do have to be made.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 1. Jan 2017, 23:02
For everyone interested, lordflinks's proposal has been accepted, you now have a (empty) page on the wiki for your concept, once it is filled out we will talk some more to see how we will go along for building, hero and unit pages. I'll just post what I posted over there:
Since a majority of WT members agree I shall proceed. I've created a page here for you to post the basic faction information. You can use the other faction pages as a template,if you need any formatting but don't know how to do it just leave me a note, I'll have a look over it later (ex: FN: Make this a section header). I'll copy the basic format and let you do the rest, you just have to go to the page and click edit in the top left corner, once you're done just click submit and we'll talk more about units and hero pages. I'll get a banner and the categories sorted out, don't worry about that.

Page: Link (http://edain.wikia.com/wiki/Dorwinion)
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 1. Jan 2017, 23:08
Thank you, all of you. I am working on the heroes currently and using my friend's email to do Google docs with. He has read the following and feel everything is canonical, so therefore, I will proceed with everything and come up with the heroes names. I will list powers as well.

As for Pallando, he was Alatar's friend but we cannot say with certainty that Pallando was of Orome's people. Pallando could have been from Orome, Namo, or Niennas as all of them are a high possibility.

It may take me awhile but I will come up with powers for all the heroes and once I am done, feel free to change and balance them out as needed. 
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 1. Jan 2017, 23:42
For everyone interested, lordflinks's proposal has been accepted, you now have a (empty) page on the wiki for your concept, once it is filled out we will talk some more to see how we will go along for building, hero and unit pages. I'll just post what I posted over there:
Since a majority of WT members agree I shall proceed. I've created a page here for you to post the basic faction information. You can use the other faction pages as a template,if you need any formatting but don't know how to do it just leave me a note, I'll have a look over it later (ex: FN: Make this a section header). I'll copy the basic format and let you do the rest, you just have to go to the page and click edit in the top left corner, once you're done just click submit and we'll talk more about units and hero pages. I'll get a banner and the categories sorted out, don't worry about that.

Page: Link (http://edain.wikia.com/wiki/Dorwinion)
Thank you. This is something we will utilise once we begin looking at heroes and units in detail; as a word document is not suitable for such indepth words.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 2. Jan 2017, 00:55
Hey LordofLinks, I have been working diligently to come up with powers for the heroes and I have done that on google drive which you can see.

Something I want to point out though, you say that the Court focuses is defensive but focuses on cavalry while the Cult is offensive but focuses on infantry. I feel this should be reversed. Cavalry does NOT hold ground infantry does and I feel the Court should have an emphasis on infantry and not cavalry. This would also make more sense since there are more elves from the woods (cavalry doesn't do to well in woods) and Alatar is a master of the hunt and animals. He and Beruthiel would more likely have an emphasis on cavalry more so than the Court.

Let me know if you can't see everything I am doing on google drive.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 2. Jan 2017, 02:22
I see your edits and I love your ideas so far with heroes. My only suggestion would be to allow Pallando to mount a horse/eagle somehow so he gets something like Alatar's bow (I loved how you implemented that, as I did not think it would work) . I leave working that in to you, as I would not want to ruin your lovely heroes.

With regards to focuses, they are not meant to even have enough infantry to hold ground, which is why they get more powerful defensive structures and cavalry (The Orcani Bastion can upgrade, the Stockade cannot). This especially applies if we distinguish the two sides by making the academy units of the court fewer in number and higher in both cost and time to recruit but more powerful with an ability. Their intended strategy is to hold key ground with their superior infantry and defence while harnessing the enemy with cavalry. If we gave the Cult horses I fear they would be OP as they already have huge, spamable armies.
As a compromise what if only the elven lancers were mounted, while the archers were not and can switch between blade and bow. Hence the Avari lord could mount but not Tauriel (The Herald would still summon cavalry).
By emphasise I do not mean they are Rohan but their unique units tend to be cavalry (To make up for limited infantry) while the cult gets infantry.

Would you be able to apply your magic to the units as well; I feel the academy units should be different depending on the side but whether you make two different units or just distinguish the unit with stat/abilities changes is up to you.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 2. Jan 2017, 03:01
LordofLinks, if that is your reasoning for the cavalry being emphasized for the Court then I can get behind that. I would like you to do the Empress's abilities and powers as you seem to know what you want with her. I mean, I can try to do my best with her but it might be tough and I think you have a better vision of her than I.

Also LordofLinks, the reason I don't have Pallando with a bow or mounting an eagle is because I went with him being of Namo's people (the Valar would not send two from the same realm to combat Sauron. They would try to use all manner of different professions to try and bring him down). So as far as Pallando mounting an Eagle, I don't see that happening, also, I don't know if there are any eagles in the East, do you?

So I felt that was uncanonical, the horse is a possibility but why would I throw out some of his other cool powers just so he could mount? I mean, I'll throw out of his powers for a mount, but I feel we are doing Pallando a diservice. Also, what special attacks would he have with a bow? He is not as good as Alatar.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 2. Jan 2017, 10:04
I have added abilities to the Elven Herald and the Empress. Could you please check over their aura abilities to ensure they are both balanced and suitable. Also do you have any suggestions for a voice actress for the Empress? 
On to other heroes:
Lenwe is the Avari lord/king correct? Even though the Empress is the leader of all of Dorwinion, he is the leader of the Avari elves right?
Tauriel will have her normal abilities, although I feel she should have a slightly different appearance and should have a different ability other than 'scout'. What do you think? 
Who is the hero for the rebel fortress outpost? Sorry if it is obvious but I cannot see it.
Why is the female Nazgul Adunaphel a hero for Dorwinion; when I mentioned her I was only complaining about her not being a hero in Mordor. I never meant for her to be in Dorwinion.
Regarding Pallando what would you say about this: Remove wizard blast from Pallando, Radgast does not have it, so I see no reason for Pallando to. Move purge to level one but have it gain power as he levels up, similar to Elrond's water horse ability, move banishing aura to level 7, to replace purge, and weaken the aura. Make Call of Mandos the level 10 ability (Regardless I feel it should be level 10 due to its association with a Valar) and make it vastly more powerful, even killing most heroes bar tanks and level 9-10 heroes. Give him the ability to mount a horse at level 5.

In addiction I have replaced "Into the East" with a spell that increases the production of a building.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 2. Jan 2017, 12:57
Radagast does have a wizard blast type ability (when on foot) but it is called Nature's Breath. So far it has been a staple of the wizards so it makes sense that the Blue Wizards would have a similar ability. I agree with Call of Mandos being moved to Level 10 although I think that it would be completely overpowered if it could kill heroes in one hit.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 2. Jan 2017, 13:23
Then modify purge so it pushes enemies away with flames; a fire blast like ability, and keep it at level one and have it upgrade.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 2. Jan 2017, 18:44
Okay LordofLinks and Oakenshield, I'll do what I can. Now just because I am working on it, doesn't mean you guys can't change what you want. I am okay with that.

Adunaphel was just a name, not representing a nazgul. I can change that but it was merely a placeholder for now.

Yes Lenwe is the Avari Lord/King.

I think you should do Tauriel's abilities. I think you have the best understanding for her.

The rebel leader outpost should either be Bladorthin II (but I don't think so since he is the main enemy and son of the Empress). So I think Sacol or Marroc should be on the outpost.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: Lord Aytugar am 2. Jan 2017, 23:36
If you are looking for a name for the Empress, maybe Myleia works. To the spellbook, perhaps Saruman can be added? Because that is a fact, we all agree with this.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 3. Jan 2017, 01:17
Why Saruman? Please explain your reasoning.
The Empress, in my view, will not have a name; having dedicated her entire being to ruling her nation she has long since discarded any name she once held and now only prefers to be called by her title, even by her closest friends. Hence her name has fallen out of use and has been forgotten.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: Lord Aytugar am 3. Jan 2017, 10:43
I was thinking Saruman was their companion when they went to East but i see it would a mistake because he came back and adding Saruman is not correct for that age. It is not equal Khamul for Evil Men. I started to see from your ancle.

Also i do not see it is useful that arrow valley and lone tower are contained in the same spellbook. One of them should change i think possibly lone tower.

I am wondering what is Alatar weapon? He is one of Istari so he has the staff, it is presented almost every visual. But he is hunter though, he can not use bow but he can use spear to throw with a staff or knife to throw from the staff maybe like Alastar Moody's wand in Harry Potter movies (He hits the staff to ground and throws a couple knives instead of magic). I want to know what do you think about this lordoflinks and dkbluewizard.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 3. Jan 2017, 13:02
Alatar attacks with his staff, his gimmicks are his horse and his upgradable purge ability.
I will be more than happy to replace arrow volley and lone tower if people can come up with replacements; I have thought and thought and I have no idea.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: Lord Aytugar am 3. Jan 2017, 15:01
Instead of lone tower, maybe 'summon woodmen' can be used:

http://merp.wikia.com/wiki/Woodmen_of_Rhovanion
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 3. Jan 2017, 15:22
That seems a lothlorien power rather than Dominion; perhaps another unit that can be recruited from the beoring homstead?
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: Lord Aytugar am 3. Jan 2017, 16:51
Yes, that is more reasonable. I have another idea to help. I do not know it can be done or it is necessary but one spell can be adding neutral settlement somewhere in map maybe limited for 3 times. Perhaps it would be overpower or just not necessary. But if it is possible, it only fits for this faction. Essentially Dorwinion is neutral and even a player lost that another one can use it.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: kmogon am 4. Jan 2017, 17:26
I have read all topic and I'm impressed by your work lordoflinks and dkbluewizard. I'm trully supporter of this idea 😀 as it can bring more uniqueness and freshness to mod. Probably it's too late for that kind of proposal but if you will think about units concept design I would recomend to look on Scoia'tael from Witcher franchise. I know that they wouldn't suit to greece architecture but there is briliant simple of cooperating all races ( Havekars' men, Dol Blathana elves and Mahakam dwarfs ). Additionally elves in Sapkowsky's universe who ruled by queen and lived in wild nature, allways reminds me of those dark mystery Avari who never seen the light of two trees. Now thanks to gwent online we have plenty of concept designs that can be covered to more fitting to Tolkien's universe.
I just leave link to game's site if you want to see sth 😆:

http://www.gwentdb.com/deckbuilder/30001-eithne
EDIT:
or
http://2blind2draw.deviantart.com/art/scoia-tael-399345709

I can trully understand if you if you stay with your own idea. As a huge fan of this two worlds I just couldn't miss an option of  combaining them 😉.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 5. Jan 2017, 04:01
I have read all topic and I'm impressed by your work lordoflinks and dkbluewizard. I'm trully supporter of this idea 😀 as it can bring more uniqueness and freshness to mod. Probably it's too late for that kind of proposal but if you will think about units concept design I would recomend to look on Scoia'tael from Witcher franchise. I know that they wouldn't suit to greece architecture but there is briliant simple of cooperating all races ( Havekars' men, Dol Blathana elves and Mahakam dwarfs ). Additionally elves in Sapkowsky's universe who ruled by queen and lived in wild nature, allways reminds me of those dark mystery Avari who never seen the light of two trees. Now thanks to gwent online we have plenty of concept designs that can be covered to more fitting to Tolkien's universe.
I just leave link to game's site if you want to see sth 😆:

http://www.gwentdb.com/deckbuilder/30001-eithne
EDIT:
or
http://2blind2draw.deviantart.com/art/scoia-tael-399345709

I can trully understand if you if you stay with your own idea. As a huge fan of this two worlds I just couldn't miss an option of  combaining them 😉.
Thank you for your kind words. Why it is too late to alter the visual design of the Dorwinion units, the second image you provided is the perfect inspiration for the Avari guard, ambassador and lancer; allowing us to establish them as truly alien, when contrasted with the elves that saw valinor and the light of the trees.

Now before we move the concept to the wiki we have 3 tasks ahead of us:
1. Finish off the remaining heroes- this is being done by dkbluewizard
2. Decide on the role of wraiths in the fraction- I would like to have the cultists level 10 spell be a spell version of Morgul blade, and Beruthiel's level 7 'Dark Hag' ability to be a spell version of Morgul Blade that creates Greater Wraiths, a new unit (Rather than the current demon cats ability which I feel is too silly). Dkbluewizard has brought up the consideration that it clashes with lore in that Sauron is only meant to be able to create wraiths; but my reasoning is that Sauron gifted Beruthiel with that ability before she was dispatched, and she shared it with the cultists, that are now limited to 3 battalions. I would like to implement wraiths this way but we need to decide if it is lore friendly.
3. Ring Heroes: Look below this line:

Ring Heroes of Dorwinion:
1. The Empress- Having seized it; she channels the power of her ancestors and invokes the aid of the Valar to combat the tide of evil as the Blue Wizards fell, able to control the ring due to her dedication to her nation, and
Abilities:
Rank 1 Champion of the Valar: Aura that gives nearby friendly units fearlessness and terrifies nearby enemies, and when clicked grants acess to a second palantir
Rank 3 Mount/Dismount: Mount/ Dismount
Rank 5 Royal Deed: Upgrades selected building to level 3
Rank 8 Words of Glory and Courage: Area spell that buffs the defence and attack of selected friendly units by 50%
Rank 10 Flame of the Valar: Sets the ground around the Empress in a very large area on fire with white flames
Palantir 2:
Rank 1 Champion of the Valar: Aura that gives nearby friendly units fearlessness and terrifies nearby enemies, and when clicked grants access to the first palantir
Rank 2 Strength of Tulkas: Grants the selected units invincibility for 10 seconds
Rank 4 Woods of Oromë: "Summon Elven Wood" that grants 50% armour and attack
Rank 7 Relief of Estë: Map wide healing spell
Rank 9 Gate of Námo: Pulls all enemies in the targeted area to the centre and upon reaching the centre of the targeted area they are killed (In other terms, they get sent to the Halls of Mandos) leaving no body behind

2. Pallando- The ring corrupts him utterly leaving him a mere servant to Sauron's will, and while he carries it his cloak is utter black, as well as his horse 
Rank 1 Flames of Mount Doom: More powerful version of Purge level 10, with black and red flames instead of white
Rank 2 The Lidless Eye: Aura that reveals the whole map as long as Pallando wields the ring and terrifies all nearby units (Even your own)
Rank 5 Mount/Dismount;
Rank 7 Puppet of Sauron: An aura that is a more powerful version of Banishing aura, it is active as long as Pallando wields the ring   
Rank 10 Judgement of the Dark Lord: Call of Mandos with a more larger area with red and black flame, rather than white

3. Beruthiel- Taking the ring for her own, she uses it to enhance her own powers and attempts to set herself up as an equal to Sauron, only unlike Sauron who she believes has deserted Melkor, she aims to shatter the doors of Night and invoke Dagor Dagoroth prematurely, so as to tip the balance in Melkor's favour, giving him (And she hopes herself) everlasting dominion.
Rank 1 Conversion: Converts enemy units to her cause.
Rank 2 Eternal Despair: Like Ringwraith passive ability but all units (Even your own) also cower in fear.
Rank 5 Dominion of the Dark Lady: Kills the selected units instantly and converts them to Greater Wraiths (Lesser wraiths that can attack and do a small amount of damage), heroes are not affected
Rank 7 Enslavement: Enemy units in a large area are decommissioned and the resources are given to the Cult side.
Rank 10 Champion of the Shadow: Converts one of your own heroes into a Nazgul (Wielding that heroes weapon and keeping their experience level), with that heroes abilities bar their level one which is replaced by Dread Visage, the Nazgul has increased health and attack but if it is killed or Beruthiel (In which case all Nazgul die automatically), the heroes can be retrained but is at level 1

4. Alatar- Upon taking the ring the Valar curse him for deserting his cause, and his cloak becomes red with the blood he has spilled in his path
All abilities do more damage, or have a larger area but upon being cast Alatar inflicts damage upon himself with each ability being cast


I have merged Bladorthin II level 1 ability into his level 3 ability and given him a leadership aura.
Once we have moved to the wiki, I think it would be a good idea having lore for every building, unit, hero and spell to justify why we picked them.
 
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: dkbluewizard am 5. Jan 2017, 04:45
LordofLinks these ring powers look good, but I feel we should limit each selection to 2 ring heroes each. Also, I feel the wraith abilities for Beruthiel (with the One Ring) is lore friendly and acceptable. However, I don't feel she should have the ability to create ring wraiths normally, it goes too much against lore.

I think we should kick off Bladorthin II as the Ring hero and just leave Alatar and Beruthiel as the heroes. Pallando and Empress look good however, I would rather like to see the Empress be the good ring hero and Pallando become corrupted. The reason for this is that BOTH blue wizards fell away in the end. So to say that Pallando could master it, goes against the lore and canon. Have the Empress master it as she is made up and we really don't know what her resistance could have entailed...

As far as Beruthiel and Alatar, let them both become evil. That is what evil does. However, the wraith and keeping heroes at rank 1 might be a little overpowering. Not too sure, but we'll see.

I am still working on the heroes LordofLinks. Almost finished. If you feel there is anything you would like to add or take away, feel free. The only beings I ask to not be changed now are Alatar and Pallando as I feel their powers are both the most canonical and balanced.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: kmogon am 5. Jan 2017, 20:53
Zitat
Thank you for your kind words. Why it is too late to alter the visual design of the Dorwinion units, the second image you provided is the perfect inspiration for the Avari guard, ambassador and lancer; allowing us to establish them as truly alien, when contrasted with the elves that saw valinor and the light of the trees.

I'm glad that I can help  xD . I can support your work with another visual additions , but already sorry for missinterrpretating yours point of view if I will imagine sth wrong   ;) :

Those one, I think , probably suit to occultic site of Dorvinion faction. Firstly I was thinking about militaria couse of their bad armored looks but they are elves which don't compare with human cultic's concept:

about archers you can take some inspiration from those
the women's ones:

orocami nobles:

and rebels horsemen:

about Vinyard Guard:

if it going about Paladins I found old lotr online concept art:

the targaryen armor from GoT with some redesign would probably suit hoplites an longswords:

about druids I'm not sure that you thing about sth like that:

Cultists:

Feel free to use those concepts and please say if I was near to your concept  :)
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 6. Jan 2017, 13:04
Kmogen;
As I said the academy units visual design is already firm in our minds, but that Paladin concept will work lovely for the Vinyard Guard and Paladins (They are the same unit only one is mounted)
Likewise the Orcani design is useful, as well as the rebel horseman and the cultist art has given me the inspiration of having the cultist be masked. The Druid already has a design, it was an unit in Edain 3.8.1.   
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: Lord Aytugar am 7. Jan 2017, 09:51
Lordoflinks

If you are looking for a name for Vinyard Guard, you can use something like Golden Cloak from GoT. It can change depends on color of cloak but the name gives royalty mean.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 7. Jan 2017, 12:52
@Lord Aytugar
The Vinyard Guard is their name, and I feel it suits them perfectly as the guardians of the Vinyard Court.

In other news the main page of Dorwinion on the wiki is complete, and contains a lovely overview of the fraction and a short history of the realm. Pages of Heroes, Units and Buildings will be gradually added over the next week or so.
View it here:
http://edain.wikia.com/wiki/Dorwinion_(Concept)
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: Gandalf7000 am 9. Jan 2017, 16:55
I must say that I'm very intrugued of how will the Empress look like and what would her powers be.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: Lord Aytugar am 13. Jan 2017, 15:55
Is this faction cancelled? Because link is death.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: Gandalf7000 am 13. Jan 2017, 16:45
Is this faction cancelled? Because link is death.
I think no but, it seems that the link is just broken. Here's the real link: http://edain.wikia.com/wiki/Dorwinion_(Concept)
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: Lord Aytugar am 13. Jan 2017, 17:55
Gandalf7000

The link you said real, still broken?
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: Fredius am 13. Jan 2017, 18:00
http://edain.wikia.com/wiki/Dorwinion_(Concept) (http://edain.wikia.com/wiki/Dorwinion_(Concept))

This one should work xD.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 13. Jan 2017, 18:02
Only took three tries  :D Because the link contains a parenthesis it is better to link it through hypertext so that the website knows clearly what is the link and what isn't like this (http://edain.wikia.com/wiki/Dorwinion_(Concept)). Although Fredius's option also works.

Or you can link the redirect which will redirect the user to the right page:
http://edain.wikia.com/wiki/Dorwinion
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: Lord Aytugar am 13. Jan 2017, 19:46
Fredius and The_Necromancer0

Thanks for update. I will prove the existence of this faction. Because in one local forum someone claims the otherwise.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: Shadowxgate am 22. Jan 2017, 11:19
weren't there any dwarves near dorwinion? i could have swore the red mountains were there
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: OakenShield224 am 22. Jan 2017, 11:45
There was the Orocarni mountain range. I think there were 4 dwarf clans there: the Ironfists, Blacklocks, Stonefoots and Stiffbeards.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 22. Jan 2017, 11:48
weren't there any dwarves near dorwinion? i could have swore the red mountains were there
In my concept, (http://edain.wikia.com/wiki/Dorwinion), the good subfraction of Dorwinion can build an Orcani Bastion which allows them to recruit the Orcani Dwarfs
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 16. Feb 2017, 11:10
I just wish to apologize for the lack of updates. A lot of stuff has come up for me and I do not have enough time.
Sorry...
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: Gandalf7000 am 16. Feb 2017, 14:22
I just wish to apologize for the lack of updates. A lot of stuff has come up for me and I do not have enough time.
Sorry...
Take your time. I think you've done quite a good job with the previous updates! :)
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: lordoflinks am 7. Apr 2017, 14:50
All Dorwinion units recruited from within the main base now have information! Have fun reading about them.

Siege engines do not as they are a common unit shared between fractions, for the most part.
Titel: Re: Dorwinion Faction
Beitrag von: Darkmoon Dragoner am 21. Jul 2017, 13:11

Can submod to edain mod? Or the creators to convince to create?