Modding Union

[en] Edain Mod => [Edain] Suggestions => [Edain] Dwarven Suggestions => Thema gestartet von: LordDainIronfoot am 6. Nov 2015, 07:54

Titel: Battlewagons Improvements
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 6. Nov 2015, 07:54
So with all my respect I politely ask all the Companions of Edain who will Vote to Read the Thread! :)

P.S. Look at the Bottom of the Post to see the full and almost finished Concept of the Whole idea that we were ableto create till now,hope you enjoy it! :) I did my best! :)


Here is the latest and most full Concept of the whole "War Chariot" idea with the summorized and combined from the best ideas we had dicussing it,hope you guys like it and know that any propposals are welcomed but will be first discussed! :)

After a long discussion with many opniions and ideas to polish the main suggestion I think I should to a Summorize ofwhat we have agreed till now that should be done! :) If someone finds some mistakes or missing stuff feel free to tell me so that I can fix it! :)

Erebor:


Will be Pulled by 1 of those Animals on  the Picture! :) The strong and muscualr Ram Animals correspond with the Nature of Erebor as a Strong and Mighty Kingdom and in Brown Color too with the Erebor Theme and more importantly fits the Region in which the Kingdom is! :) And as well the inspiration about thsoe Animals is taken from Real World as well but just revised to fit better!


Will have "Wheel Blades" as a Passvie Ability from the begining! :)
The Main 3 Upgrades will be the Same: Healing,Axe Throwers and Banner! :)
The Active Ability from "Oil Cask" should become "Flash Bombs" basically a better "Oil Cask" but doing DMG against Buildings with Short Time "Stun" Effect on Infantry Units! :) It will be in connection with Eredbor Basic Strenght being good in Siege and Against Buildings! :)

Ered Luin:


Will be Pulled by 1 of the Animals on the Picture Above! :) Now the Animal is really good fitting in the White/Blue Color theme of the Ered Luin and the Region in which the Kingdom is! And those White Strong Snow Goats are based on inspirations from Real World but just revised a little to fit better in the Middle Earth and Dwarven Style! :) Here you can see the basics for those magnifficent creatures! :)


It will also have "Wheel Blades" as  a Passive Ability from the Begining! :)
The Main 2 Upgrades stay te same: Healing,Crossbowmans,Banner! :)
Active Ability: Active Ability: Will be "Great Shields",which mean two Warriors on the Chariot will hold 2 Big Shields on each side of the Chariot,providing temporarly Big Boost in the Armor ofthe Chariot Against Spearmans or Armor in general against melee units!! :) It is in connection with Ered Luin Basic Strenght being Armor and Deffense! :)
Now this are the Icon Buttons for "Great Shield" Ability of Ered Luin Chariots made personally from CragLord,he has my eternal gratitude for all his hard work and efforts as always!




The 2 Soldiers from the Ability will hold Shields like the one on the Icon button !And here is the Sound for the"Great Shield" Ability that CragLord made,I hope you will like it! :-)


Iron Hills War Chariot:



It will be Pulled by 1 Ram!And that Ram will be the one used currently in game! :-) :) It will aslo have "Wheel Blades" as a Passive Ability from the Begining! :)
The Main Upgrades will be the same: Healing,Archers,Banner! :)
Active Ablity: Semi-Automatic Crossbow,it will be active for 10-15 Seconds making Rapid Firing and after that 20-25 seconds Cool Down represnting the need to Reload! :) It will connect with Iron Hills Basic Strength being Speed and DMG! :)
And now again the Ability Buttons for "Semi-Automatic Crossbow" Ablitiy provided yet again by our CragLord... :)



Here is a Sound made again by CragLord for the "Semi-Automatic Crossbow" Ability! :-)


Now something for King Dain II of Erebor! :)
His current Second Ability is Summonin of a Battlewagon which can be Mounted by a Hero!The Ability will stay the same ,BUT the Chariot should be changed!Here is how it should look! :)



It will be Pulled by 1 Armored Boar!The Boar will represnt the Royal Crest of Dain's House and along with the Design of the Chariot will represnt the Connection of Dain to Iron Hills and his Past as Lord of Iron Hills! :) Same Upgrades with same Active Ability as Iron Hills War Chariot,BUT to not make Erebor too OP I think the Ability should have a Limit  of 5 Chariots no more Summon than 5 ,based on the number of Heroes Erebor has! :)



And now the Icon Button for "Wheel Blades that can be used for all 3 Kingdom Standard Chariots,again provided to us by CragLord
 ! :)



About the Passive "Wheel Blades" Upgrade and the Chariots like whole we have come up with 3 Possible Effects,which I hope you will read and find interesting and of course like! ;)And remember we can choose only 1 of the 3 Possible Choices! :)

Effects:
1. "Wheel Blades" will have a Small Area DMG Effect! :)
2. "Wheel Blades" will give the Chariot a Slower Trample Deceleration! :)
3. "Wheel Blades" will give BOTH a Small Area DMG and Slightly Slower Trample Deceleration! :)

Now I will give my personal Opinion! :) I choose Effect 3 (BOTH Effects)!Why!? Because the War Chariots are Heavy War Machines made of Solid Iron and Armed with Wheel Blades,it makes them Heavy thus they have Slightly Slower Trample Deceleration and the "Wheel Blades" cut everything that touches them in their high Speed Spining which suggest a Small Area DMG on both Sides of the Chariot! That's why I think Effect 3 is the BEST in my eyes choice! :) Eager for your feedback! :)

And Finally the "Healing" Upgrade: Should get a different presentation on the War Chariots for Logical Reasons! :) Bringing a Burning Fire or Fire Place on a War Chariot is not Logical,being inconvinient and dangerous to the Crew! :) So instead of the Fireplace  we should get a Barrel with Beer and Cups Attached to it on the One Side of teh Chariot and on the Other Side a Packages with Food and Medical Supplies,it WILL HAVE the Same Effect as Healing Building just with different Visual Look and name!It can be called "Provisions" or "Long Road Supplies"! :)

Here is my suggestion on how the New Healing Button Icon can Look and be Called "Provisions" or "Supplies" or "Long Road Supplies"  ,it is just as sample and example if the Team finds or mkaes better one,well even better for me!  [ugly] [ugly]



The Objects in the Black Squares can be used as In Game Objects that will appear on the Chariot after the Upgrade is Purchased! :)

Here is the "Provisions" Button Icon made and suggested by CragLord! :) Which one the Team and Fans like or make other there is not problem! :)



I think this all Summorize the ideas being Polished till now,if someone disagrees or has something to add,I will be more than happy to add his idea or discuss it here! :)

Greetings and best Regards to all! :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Dainironfootironhills am 6. Nov 2015, 09:34
Finally @lordDainironfoot:) I defenitaly think the team should implement it,the battle wagons does look a bit cartoonish and a little unfitting with the design...the designs you posted are perfect,also if we add the crosbow and the charriot crew just make them really vonrable to pikes and trolls...that should cancle the op out,in theory it should do a lot of damage to swordsmen and bowmen because they can't stop a charriot!balance wise I think it should be no problem and war charriots is more fitting,it can be larger than the battlewagon with two boars or rams pulling it,I really do hope the edain team finds this fitting and grow fond of it!I thought about the implammentation and it coeld be that you start of with battle wagons and when they are L3 you can send them into the fordge and they will come out war charriots,the battle wagons cost 360 and the upgrade can cost 800 which makes it quite expensive but it will stop spamming
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 6. Nov 2015, 09:44
I am glad to see some interest and feedback on this Thread! :)

Well of course they wil lbe quite Weak Against Spearman and Troll(even though logic wise with that Crossbow Trolls should stay aside of the Chariot :D) but joke aside yeah they will be strong only Against Swordsman and Archers! :)

While I really like your idea for the Upgrade I think it might prove to be a little too complicated! Because of that I think they should be Chariotsfrom the Start! :)

About the animals,2 Animals is perfect but I think it wil lbe quite an additional work for the Team to add 1 more Animal insteead the use of only 1 and I have no problem with beign only 1 so I thik we can do just fine with it!? :)

Oh and Welcome to MU mate,I am honored that your First Post was in my Thread! :)
Hope you enjoy it here,we have really great discussion and it isvery interesting adn fun place~! :)

Greetings! :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Dainironfootironhills am 6. Nov 2015, 10:01
Thank you Lord Dain!

Implementing the war charriots will also give a more movie atmosfeer for the movie lovers and it is one step closer to the perfect dwarven faction,and adding their weakness I don't think they will be op with the crossbow and crew,I think it is a splended idea!now we must wait until ET member give as his thought
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: FG15 am 6. Nov 2015, 10:19
I like the basic idea of the concept and think that different animals and the design being more adjusted to the style of each factions would be great.

But researching an upgrade in the forge for the crossbow, would be a too big difference. I think the crossbow should just replace the oil cask.

Also there aren't animations for two animals in front of the War Chariot.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Dainironfootironhills am 6. Nov 2015, 10:25
Thanks FG that would not be a problem,you are the creators we are just brainstorming here:)but thank you for your insight
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: korner am 6. Nov 2015, 10:27
I like the idea of having different charriots for the 3 dwarven realms.

Furthermore I like the idea of the boars very much! Just looks more epic.

I don´t really like that automatic crossbow, I´d rather have a "gunman" siiting there and shoot on the enemy (so 1 driver + 1 shooting the crossbow).

I also don´t think it´s necessary to make an extra upgrade in the forge. I think if you make this crossbow similar strong then the dwarven axe-throwers it´d simply be another possibility to use the charriot (banner/ heal/ axe throwers/ crossbow expansion).


By the way:

I´d very much like to see these animals (muskox) as one of the 3 different animals:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muskox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muskox)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 6. Nov 2015, 11:18
Thank you FG15 for the quick reply and interest in the idea! :)

I have completely forgotten the OIl Cask :D I uggested the Upgrade just for Balacne in Case some people do not agree with it,so I love the idea of using it in place of the Cask is ousnds really awesome,really great idea tere mate! :)

I am aware of the Animations about the Wagons that why I said only 1 Animal is fine and talked in single person about them! I will be mroe than hapyp to ahve those different Animals even if it is 1 of them Pulin the Wagons! :)

I am really happy that you like the idea of making the Kingdoms more unique as possible! :)
Yeah I kinda like the Wild Boars for puling more! :) But of course as I said I am jsut as fien with Rams too! :) It just Rams seem mroe agile and fast just like for Cavalry while the Boars more toough and strong jsut for pulling! :)

I understand and resepct that! :) No need to say that I really like the Crossbow and yeah if it as strong as basicArcher or Axe Thrower I think it will be not OP at all and may then even a CD won't be needed! :)

The animals look good I have no problem with them being Erebor or Ered Luin Animal because Boars and Rams are for IHs ! :)

Thank you al lfor the attention I hope we will continue disuccsion about this matter! :) And really thanks to FG15 for his participation too! :)

Greetings and best regards! :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Dainironfootironhills am 6. Nov 2015, 11:24
Really happy to see Fg like this,it means that the possibility is really good
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: korner am 6. Nov 2015, 11:25
concerning the rams:

in the movie (and in 4.2 Edain mod) they are used as mounts for riders (equally to a horse used as mount by men).
Therefore I´d think it fitting to say: 1 ram is not strong enough to pull a charriot + crew.
It would either need more than 1 ram to pull the charriot (which is not possible from the animation) or another, stronger animal - the wild boar for IH, muscox or similar animal for the other 2 realms.
Brings in even more variety.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Dainironfootironhills am 6. Nov 2015, 11:31
I like your technicality:)lol....either way boar or ram will be really cool
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 6. Nov 2015, 11:36
[
Exactly my point mate,glad you understand about the Ram and Boar!
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Fredius am 6. Nov 2015, 12:29
Uhm Rams are stronger than Boars though, especially since they need strong muslces to climb mountains :P. I'm in favor of this idea, but my personal opinion is to not use the boars instead of the Rams. Like I said they are weaker than Rams but their short legs make them move even less fast than the Rams, who also have an advantage in crushing enemies with their Horns.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 6. Nov 2015, 12:33
I see your point there mate! :)

Well I wanted the Boars just for some diversity but as I said I am absolutely fine with Rams staying the Pulling Animals for IHs ,after al lI lvoe Rams :D My Zodiac sign in my Country is called Ram :D :D

What you think about the War Chariot of Iron Hills with Crossbwo and Crew and all!? :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Fredius am 6. Nov 2015, 12:45
Changing the design of the current Chariots is definetly a +1 for you. Since we aim for more diversity for every Dwarven faction it's only right to make every warchariot reflect it's own realm, especially the animals used to pull the chariots. The crew should indeed consist of someone who steers, someone who shoots the crossbow, and two Dwarves defending the flanks. Great idea indeed my friend ;)!

I too am in favor of just replacing the Oil Barrel with the crossbow ability.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 6. Nov 2015, 12:57
Indeed!Each Kingdom with its own warfare! :)

And to represnt King Dain connection with IHs he can get 1 Iron Hilsl War CHariots as his summon!?But that is for another Thread :D

Exactly my friend in the Movie we have Driver,Shooter and Two Defenders whith Short Swords on each side! :)  I think this will be the best choice for IHs War Chariots! :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 6. Nov 2015, 14:09
I like the idea of a boar pulling the battlewagon of the Iron Hills, it will be more interesting and more logical, since a single ram won't be quite able to pull the wagon; and it would be even better if the battlewagon was redesigned a bit to look more like in the movies  xD.
Although, I never liked the 'throw oil barrels' upgrade of the battlewagon (I'm not sure of the name). Maybe the crossbow weapon from BOTFA can replace that upgrade?  ;)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 6. Nov 2015, 14:28
Well if you look in detail in my suggestion you will see that thats exactly what I am suggesting!Movie Models and Crossbow with Crew and New Look and Animal.for Each Kingdom and they will be War Chariots no Battlewagon! :-)

Greetings mate! :-)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 6. Nov 2015, 14:42
^^So it happens that I completely agree with all your ideas regarding Dwarves, it seems that we have the same opinion about them! Only difference is that you are one of their greatest warriors, and I just like their taste!  xD [uglybunti]
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Dainironfootironhills am 6. Nov 2015, 15:02
It is great to see the community comming together on this idea,I can't wait to se with what the team come up with if they are going to implament this idea
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 6. Nov 2015, 15:17
Ahha it seems so my friend! :-) But that joke made my day  :D :D
Well I glad to it is rear to see that :D Now we can only hope.that the Team will like it and use it!? :-)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 6. Nov 2015, 15:56
Completely agree about almost everything suggested here. :)
Reasons for those changes are nicely described in term of geography and warfare of dwarven realms in Middle Earth. I hardly support all of them.

You have right, current Battlewagon look very cartoonish, and new skinning is really desirable, of course because of high standard which is set by this mod at first place.
So, I support and like idea about reskinning curret Battle wagon look, and this war machine deserve new name, as you have suggested, War Chariot is so good name for it. :)

If team in further future decide to implement this and those new animals that would be great and I think it will boost quality of mod even more.

Concerning animals, I am really only for rams (goats) and some unique implementation of those epic wild boars:

I like those white goats model for Ered Luin, they are muscular animals which are inspirated in weta design by Mountain goat in nature : Rocky Mountain Goat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_goat)
I would really like to see them as corresponding animal for Blue Mountains region which is tamed by Ered Luin dwarves. Also it white color is really fitting in blue/white color theme of Ered Luin dwarves. So, this is one more reason why I think this white mountain goat is so good choice for Ered Luin. :)

This one is really fitting because of itS color for Erebor, perfect in  that brown theme. Beast looks very strong and muscular. Like that horn armor touch. :) 
I have seen that korner have suggested Muskox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muskox#Modern_relatives) as pulling animal, I am against this species because it is not goat, it is something between goat and ox. I am mainly only for goats here, 3 different looks of rams, and this Muskox is animal which is living on Artic region not in Mountain environment which are concerning dwarves here in first place. :)
And current ram from this Erebor picture suggestion already looks similar in muscular from with Muskox, but more useful with those horns look and position. :)

Now concerning Iron Hills, I am against wide range usage of wild boars. Let me explain. I am for that regular War Chariot is pulled by current Nazgul's model which is currently used in game as pulling and riding animal for Iron Hills.
Also that current model (http://s4.postimg.org/3k2r1iynh/Wagon_Ram4.jpg) looks similar to movie pulling and ridding animals (yes in case you haven't noticed ridding rams (http://f.ptcdn.info/781/026/000/1419242676-1de3d20d15-o.jpg) in movie and chariot's pulling rams are very different, they have different horns, horn's position, fur and color. On this picture you can see differences: Pulling rams (http://s5.postimg.org/g0opy757p/Pulling_rams.png)). So this current game model should stay with Iron Hills and only with them.

And concerning those epic wild boars. The best way of using them is to make them more unique in game. And my suggestion is to integrate them only in Kings Dain War Chariot ability. Those summoning chariots are unique and they should become even more unique by adding those boars as pulling animals. Reason for this is that as you have said they represent Royal Crest for Dain's House. So this touch will be great in Erebor, King Dain have saved his royal family symbol. And in Iron Hills this is already integrated in term of Lord Dains personal pig mount. So keep boars unique and add them only in this ability. Simply I wouldn't like to see that all of chariots are pulled by royal animal of Lord Dain's House. It would lost that unique touch if whole Iron Hills faction will have boars for chariots.

Concerning war chariots upgrades, we shouldn't complicate things. All of them should stay with same upgrades as in current situation. And if we would like to see that crossbow, then it could be integrated as cool down ability instead barrel, as FG have said. Or maybe in place of archer/axe/crossbow unit upgrade which exist now.

So does this mean that there is no possibility for making somehow new chariot model for 2 pulling animals? :) Or second animal could be added to current model but only new animation need to be done for it?

P.S. Also Dain, if you have model of those wild boars and chariot, maybe you can deliver it to team, if they see it as good one. Maybe that boar model could be used. :)

Kind regards.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Fredius am 6. Nov 2015, 16:02

Excellent idea! I can live with that! This is a perfect middle-way for people who like or don't like boars. To be honest I think it would be good to also give Dain a boar instead of a pig, but that's a matter for another discussion topic :).
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 6. Nov 2015, 16:11
Some of earlier Dain's picture which describes those royal chariots in the best way:
I have always imagined those boars only for Lord Dain Ironfoot, not for Iron Hills wide usage. :) So in this case, for King Dain. ;)

P.S. I really like topic Dain! :)
+10 from me. ;)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 6. Nov 2015, 16:35
Well I most than pleased and happy that so many people agree and like the Topic! :-) It is an honor for me! :-)

Now you guys got ahead of me,I was going to create a Thread about King Dain II Chariot Summon and was going to suggest to Summon basically Iron Hills War Chariot with Crossbow but Pulled by Armored Boar,to represent Dain's Past ad Lord of the Iron Hills and his House Crest too!?
What you think about that!? :-)

Also I agree of using only Different Kinds of Goat! :-)

Oh thank you Crag you are flattering me I really don't deserve it it is just another of my Dwarven Threads ! :-)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 6. Nov 2015, 16:46
I think I have pretty described my opinion about that matter above. :P
There is no need for another topic, we could discuss here everything about that summon ability. :)

Yes, this is important in my eyes, because of species in general. That korner suggested animal was some separate specie between goat and ox. I really think there is no need for anything else except 3 unique goat models (species) and those wild boars.

No, it is really nice topic. I like animals in general, and now those ram species really make me interested to do some a side research for them, so I could improve discussion or main concept here in good way.

Regards.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Dainironfootironhills am 6. Nov 2015, 17:00
The charriot summon can replace the unit summon I think is not fitting for lord Dain but rather king Dain how manny would he summon then 3?
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 6. Nov 2015, 17:12
You got confused friend.
We are speaking of improvement of King's Dain summon chariot ability.
That is his second ability in his palantir of abilities. Erebor faction. :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 6. Nov 2015, 17:26
King Dain my friend has an Ability,hid Second Ability I think was to Summon 1 Battlewagon which can be Mounted by a Hero! :-) And the idea I was going to Create Topic about but Carg was faster (I will never forgive you Crag :D ) than me is tp replace that Battlewagon with IHs War Chariot with Crossbow but Pulled by an Armored Wild Boar! :-)

About Lord Dain Summon you can see our other.discussion my friend! :-)

About Crag yeah I think you are right my friend good thing you were faster I was planning to create the Thread tonight :D and I Think we all.agree about King Dain Chariot Summon !?We may actually make a Poll about it in future!? :-)
About the Goats Kinds yeah I understand you and completely agree about that! :-)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Dainironfootironhills am 6. Nov 2015, 17:47
My apologies but I support it
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 6. Nov 2015, 17:52
I more or less agree with CragLord: I appreciate a new design for the battle wagons / war chariots for the old one really looks that way at least in certain parts (the dwarven soldiers are of Edain's quality but that doesn't count so much for the pulling animal).
However I would prefer to keep their upgrades the same but differentiate their abilities: E.g. IH could get the Cross Bow as an active ability (this should really be only temporary IMO), Erebor could get the Barrel and Ered Luin the spikes at the side as a passive ability, because Luin is the tankiest sub-faction and therefore wants to get in your face. ;)
I don't like the idea of completely different upgrade sets or systems for one sub-faction. Especially because things like the banner are actually pretty important with their anti-fear bonus, so every dwarven realm needs access to that.
However I would suggest for a more coloured version of the chariots: The dwarven armor in Edain is actually relatively colourfull (not like the mainly iron grey platemails in the Hobbit), so this really pale look would really stand out.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: There are too many open threads around here. xD I can't answer all of them... ;)
PPS: Dwarves are really getting pretty "goat heavy". I don't really know if this is everytimes a good idea tbh -they look fairly nice and have about the right size for dwarves, but I think they aren't that strong actually. I mean, these chariots weight a lot and the goats I have seen untill now are all really lightly creatures. Just wanted to point that out before we go too far with our suggestions. ;)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 6. Nov 2015, 18:14
I am glad you agree!

Well no one said to give absolutely different Upgrades for all.or one Faction! :-) I just suggested the Crosrto be Upgrade for IHs but we decided it should be in Place of the Oil Cask! :-)
I prefer the Goat Themed Animals than the Vanilla one which I don't even know what are :D

But I disagree about adding more Color,I actually never liked ti Colorful Dwarves,the Main Thing I disliked in the awesome TDH Mod for BFME I the Dwarves were too Colorful,which in my eyes at least is not so in Dwarven Style ,I like that Every Kingdom has own Color Theme but I do not think it should be so colorful everywhere,for Example Movie Iron Hills Soldiers had Dark Red Belts ,Red on the Shields which to me is enough to show and point their Theme Color including their Banners who also were Red in Color! :-) And even the  Soldiers weren't completely Gray and had Gold/Yellow Lines but all this is completely different Topic and I apologize for that,I hope you will not misunderstand me I am just saying why I don't think more Color is needed! :-)

So I mean the IHs Chariots doesnt need additional Colors ! :-)

Greetings! :-)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Fredius am 6. Nov 2015, 18:52
Agreed, there is a limit on how much differences in colour units should have. The differences in the form of armour should be enough to make them unique.

If colours were that important then we might as well implement the house colors system again :P.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 6. Nov 2015, 19:25
There is no need for different upgrades, all chariots should have same upgrades as they have in current version of mod.
Suggestion about that active abilities is nice.
I am also against that color adding, I mean, where you will place that color, on which part of chariots so it will be recognizable during game play? :)
I really don't see this as some serious argument, they are then not so strong to carry demolisher, but currently they do that. :) Simply this is about diversity of pulling animals which reflects on geographic regions of dwarven realms and their lives. There is no need to think in that way (of so realistic situation about strength of goats :) ). In Only watch them as mounts and pulling models, in general case.  :P

Kind regards 
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 6. Nov 2015, 19:36
Very interesting -and old- thread, for I recall some similar discussions back in the Edain International Community. :D
I strongly support diversity between three realms and so I very much like the main idea of different animals pulling the chariot.

My vote is the following: Ered Luin
Iron Hills
Erebor
I also love CragLord's idea of boars pulling King Dain's summon.

EDIT: I personally don't want the oil barrel to be removed, even in favour of some kind of automatic crossbow. I like a lot the current options.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 6. Nov 2015, 19:44
It is suggested that Oil barrel ability be changed with crossbow active ability for every dwarven kingdom, or (which is in my opinion also better) to add (among different pulling animal) different active ability for every kingdom.
Ered Luin - some armor upgrade ability (wheel spikes) instead oil barrel (this corresponds with defensive properties of this faction)
Erebor - stays Oil barrel (for your favourite :P, siege properties)
Iron Hills - get crossbow active ability instead Oil barrel (this is in correlation with this offensive military dwarven faction)

In my opinion it is nice suggestion. :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 6. Nov 2015, 19:48
Aye, looks fair enough! :P
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 6. Nov 2015, 19:54
I agree with Crag,the Crossbow should be something only for Iron Hills,while Erebor should keep the Oil Cask amd get IHs Chariot with Crossbow pulled by Boars from King Dain Summon,while Ered Luin should get some kind if Armor Upgrade! :-)
 Btw what you guys think if with the Banner Upgrade IHs should get 2 Soldiers with Spears(Swords in Movie) on each side of the Chariots for Extra Protection ,while Erebor and Ered Luin can Get 2 Crossbowmans/Axe Throwers ,and instead of Healing Fire on a Chariot can ha e 2 Barrels of Beer on each Side and the Third Upgrade for all 3 Kingdoms can be the Wheel Blades !? :-)
What you think about this :-)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 6. Nov 2015, 20:06
Please lets not complicate things now. :)  :D
Well banner in current game summon 2 warriors with spears which correspond to faction with which we play so I don't know what you meant with your suggestion.
And current archer/crossbow/axethrow current upgrade still exist and it is not suggested to change that also, basic upgrades stays same, only new active ability will be added. Among this current upgrade, that suggestion is really too much in my opinion, basically new banner will be banner + current range upgrade (banner bonus and range attack). It is too much, let not be hasty with this. :)
Beer suggestion is interesting. :) Those barrels should have some visual effect if they are gonna replace this small fire. This is also connected to fire heal building in base currently, so there is also one problem ahead = to change healing building also.
 
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 6. Nov 2015, 20:19
The point was to make place for Wheel Blades Upgrade but I guess the Chariots should have them from the beginning so yeah I agree we shouldn't complicated things anymore,I withdraw that idea,forget it! :-)
Why should we change the Healing Building!?Fire is unique for Dwarves but I just do not see it fitting by logical reason to carry Fire on a Chariot! :-) We can have Barrels for Chariot and.Fire for Building they will have same role just better logic! :-)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 6. Nov 2015, 20:23
Yes, they won't have wheel spikes from start if we want to integrate that unique different active ability system. :)
I was a less informative, I meant on palantir look. :)
You have right about fire logic on chariot. :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 6. Nov 2015, 20:29
I think the Wheel Blades should be part of each Chariot from the start,since it is most common for almost every Chariot on.history to have Wheel Blades or Spikes! :-) I think 3 Kingdoms should have them not only one! :-)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 6. Nov 2015, 20:38
I am also for that, but what else armor related (and armor visual effect on chariot) ability for Ered Luin we could suggest?
This was well armor related part of suggestion, so I presume it fits to Ered Luin.
I am out of ideas for that part of suggestion, mainly because of simple unique suggestion is probably needed.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 6. Nov 2015, 20:47
Well Wheel Blades are more of a DMG Related Upgrade if you ask me! :-)
Why instead Ered Luin doesn't get an Ability Buff which increases a lot their.Armor against Spears for short time a good buff which will cover shrorly their weakness unlike the other two.Kingdoms!? :-)

P.S.What you think about this about the Healing Upgrade we can have a Barrel with Cups Attached to it on the one side and Some Packages of food on the other side,like provision for long March of the Army similar to how Dain came with the Army and Chariots and the Provisions will be when thr Army takes a a rest tp ear and drink and restore their Strength an.Health
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 6. Nov 2015, 21:30
Yes, I am aware of that, simply I suggested it as armor buff because of visual effect on chariot model. I really can't thought about some other visual change on chariot which is not so radical but have armor properties. Just because spikes have visual effect to wheel. It is stupid in one hand (because those rolling spikes are for enemy cutting), but I can't think about some other visual change on model. Simply if you find something better as visual change concerning "armor" I am glad to see it. :)
Yes, this could be good one. For short amount of time, but what visual effect it could have on chariot? :) Also I hope team won't see this as some obstacle, because it is much better then other 2 active abilities.
It sound interesting. :) I was thinking only about some beer barrels, but it is nice suggestion about food and drink. :)

I think we are on good way about polishing this suggestion.  :D
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 6. Nov 2015, 23:00
Well I'm coming a little late to this topic, but since I had time I read every post. Here are my thoughts

In terms of the animals pulling the chariots, I would agree it should only be Rams. The strength argument is completely irrelevant, this is Dwarven craftsmanship we are talking about here. The machines wheels would be extremely well balanced and oiled, it could probably be pulled by a child. The only reason to add additional animals is to increase the speed that the chariot can move, take the incredible speed it moves in the film as an example.

The Dwarves would only really have access to Mountain Goats/Rams and Boars as tamable beasts of burden, due to where their strongholds are located, and the boars would not be suitable for pulling a large war machine. They could probably work well enough as heavy war mounts for individual dwarves, just like in history they had lighter, faster horses for just charging and catching routing forces, and heavy war horses who were better for prolonged melee combat. So I would support the Boars being added as a form of cavalry who don't have a great charge, but are quite strong in prolonged melee.

I would agree that the upgrades should remain the same, and have the oil cask ability change for each faction. The Crossbow effect length and CD should represent the firing rate and reload time, so in my view it should be something like fires 10 bolts, has a 10 second reload. However, I do not agree with giving the wheel spikes to Ered Luin exclusively, if anything I would say it should be passively available for all 3 factions, or if it has to be exclusive it should be for Iron Hills, that's where the entire chariot comes from. I would rather see some kind of a unique ability related to armor for Ered Luin, maybe something like a couple dwarves wielding huge greatshields on each side, and something to be useful in a siege situation for Erebor, like some kind of a bomb or "flash flame" ability. After all, its Balin who makes the flash flame grenades in the movies, and he lives in Erebor till he stupidly tries to retake Moria. That is the roles of the 3 different sub-factions, IH is more damage less armor, EL is more armor less damage, and finally Erebor is really strong in siege situations, but not as good in the open field.

I think this thread has merit, and is worthy of a poll at this point, to determine whether or not people want the different war chariots for each faction. I wouldn't include all the different ideas for upgrades and abilities in the poll, just a simple yes or no regarding changing the battlewagons to a unique war chariot for each faction. Great topic :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 6. Nov 2015, 23:34
Late or not your opinion is most welcome as alwasy Elite mate! :) I am gald you took interest in this Thread! :)

Abslutely agree ,Different Kind of Goats/Rams are the best and as you say 1 Animal is just fine no need to make things harder for just 1 more Animal which as you said wil lbe neede may be for speed only! :)

I avtually had an idea about Lord Dain's LV 10 Summon to be 2 Battalions of Boar Riders but I doubt it on 100% that the Team or the fasn will support it! :( Thats why I think it will be the best solution to have Boar Pulling the War Chariot summoned by King Dain in Erebor,which shouls be IHs Chariot with Crossbow but Pulled by an Armored Boar to rerpesnt his connection with IHs! :)

Yup the Upgrades should be the same to save more hard and not so needed work for the Team! :) But I think one Viual Change for the Healing Upgrade will be nice,you see I do not see it so logical to have Fire/Fire Place on a Chariot to Heal ,thats why I suggested to get 1 Barrel with Cups Attached to it on the one side of the Chariot and on the other side Packeges with Food,the Ugprade can be Named "Provisions" ,basically Food and Drink for long Marches of the Army away from Home to replenish their Strenght and Health,what yo uthink about that?! :)

As I have already stated before I agree that the Wheel Blades should be for al l3 Factions from the Begining or only for IHs as more of DMG Weapon they are and IHs being DMG Faction! :)

Well I think that Ered Luin can indeed get those Big Shield Soldiers which will give the Chariot some strong Buff against Pikes for short time they wil lbe really hard to kill from Spearmans which are the biggest Weakness of the Chariots and  the ability will present wel lthe Armor NAture of Ered Luin! :)

For Erebor you basically suggest a bigger and stronger Version of the Oil Cask,well I am fine with that! :)

About IHs Crossbow I agree but may be we can have 10 sec Shoiting with 15-20 sec reload Time!? :) I think this wil lbe pefrfect!? :)

I indeed will create a Poll right now considering how many people were interested in the idea and most of all supported it! :)

Greeetings and thank you for the feedback! :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 6. Nov 2015, 23:38
I mean, this is totally OT and if anyone wants to continue talking about this matter, I'll address in a moment, I'm fine, but please via PM. However...
Zitat
The strength argument is completely irrelevant, this is Dwarven craftsmanship we are talking about here. The machines wheels would be extremely well balanced and oiled, it could probably be pulled by a child. The only reason to add additional animals is to increase the speed that the chariot can move, take the incredible speed it moves in the film as an example.
What? :D You seem to life in a universe where both friction and Newton's third axiom don't apply. Apart from the fact that I simply doubt the fact that any craftsman (and I don't care if they are dwarves or not, they are still material beings -also dwarves are, as skilled as they are, still in pre-industrial age and even nowadays we can't built a frictionless vehicle. That's just beyond anyone in Medieval to craft such a thing. ;)
Second of all: There is this little axiom, that a force evokes a force of equal strength in opposite direction. Even if a child could pull this chariot (which is absolutely impossible by any logical means) it would still be impossible to crush inside an entire enemy army and just overrun numerous enemies without loosing most of your momentum. (And this point has actually nothing to do with dwarven craftsmanship, so this doesn't even hold up, you simple need a lot of momentum and therefore strong pulling animals to crush enemies with this and mountains goats are actually not that heavy if I am not mistaken.) xD

I'm really sorry for this complete OT, but you can't seriously expect me to just listen when my doubts are addressed like this, can you? ;) Which shouldn't sound offending, to be perfectly clear!

Zitat
and something to be useful in a siege situation for Erebor, like some kind of a bomb or "flash flame" ability
How about the Oil cask? Apart from that, Erebor has actually lost its building destroyer focus (which is probably the best idea ever included for the dwarves, because now the sub-factions are at least sort of balanced out). If it should be strong against buildings, then against ressource buildings, so Erebor would get a unique harass unit. As a static siege weapon the chariot does serve no purpose, eventhough I expect you didn't mean this. ;)

Zitat
Thats why I think it will be the best solution to have Boar Pulling the War Chariot summoned by King Dain in Erebor
I guess a wild boar is a great animal for the chariot, but there is actually another relation between Erebor and IH via the boar, namely Dain's mount.
BTW, I like the idea of beer barrels as a new healing upgrade. This was everytimes really unique for dwarves that their healing fortress upgrade was no fountain of some sort but this number of supplies including food and drinks.

Zitat
Well I think that Ered Luin can indeed get those Big Shield Soldiers which will give the Chariot some strong Buff against Pikes for short time they wil lbe really hard to kill from Spearmans which are the biggest Weakness of the Chariots and  the ability will present wel lthe Armor NAture of Ered Luin! :)
I guess inside the game this might work, but would this really support the chariot? I just saying: If it runs head on into enemy pikes, the goat / boar would just get impaled, therefore shields at the side wouldn't really matter. Perhaps it might be a bit more logic if this ability would cause the rams to lower their heads and directly headbutt the enemy. This would be a) extremly funny to watch (xD) and b) a bit more logic, because the goats are wearing a helmet, aren't they? (If they don't: Just add them! :))


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 6. Nov 2015, 23:48
There is no "late" reply on this forum. xD

I completely agree with you, as I have posted in some of previous comments, only Rams (and boars) as pulling animals.
Yes, that strength argument is pretty irrelevant here, because we are speaking about model diversity improvement (so far rams have done this job and this wasn't obstacle).

For now we will have rams cavalry as part of Iron Hills faction, and in my opinion I would stay on that when we speak about "dwarven" cavalry. Yes, wild boars looks strong and might with lack of charge ability, but I am against adding them as cavalry units. It is too much for dwarves I think. Basic idea of adding boars was as pulling animals for Iron Hills (at start) but the "most unique" way is to integrate them in King Dain's chariot summon power because of lore facts. :)

Concerning chariots upgrades, you gave me nice idea. I agree, all current upgrades (in property terms) should stay, adding those passive spike ability is nice suggestion and if all chariots will have it from then.
And concerning Ered Luin chariots active ability, we could as Dain have suggested add some active armor buff ability, when we for 10 or 15 sec (balance of this duration is irrelevant now, balance will be discussed after idea is accepted, if it would be accepted ofc) Ered Luin chariots gain armor against pikes and during that time 2 dwarven buddies are holding those shields by every side of chariot as you have suggested. It sound nice now.

Concerning Erebor, Oil Cask or some other bomb devise with same effect it is pretty same with me. Just that ability have siege properties.

Iron Hills upgrade, also crossbow is nice, and concerning bolts numbers or ability duration it is matter of balance and I would take that for later (if idea is gonna be accepted :) )

About poll, I leave it to Dain.

P.S. Melkor, concerning goat strength it is pretty irrelevant thing (with no offence) because concept worked fine until now and you present this as problem with different goat models? Or I have misunderstand you. Main idea here is model change not discussion about goat properties/abilities in real life. Please try to think about it in that way.

Kind regards

Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 7. Nov 2015, 00:00
I too find the Strentght argument not so needed in this situation! :) We talk as Crag said about diveristy and better models thats all in a game! :)

Now I created a Poll and will kindly ask all those who have't taken part in the Discussion so far to take a look at it by reading it! :) No,offense to anyone but I hope people who vote will be familiar with what idea is about and all its positive things and the way it will enrich the Game! :)

So with all my respoect I politely ask all the Companions of Edain who will Vote to Read the Thread! :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 7. Nov 2015, 00:03
Zitat
P.S. Melkor, concerning goat strength it is pretty irrelevant thing (with no offence) because concept worked fine until now and you present this as problem with different goat models? Or I have misunderstand you. Main idea here is model change not discussion about goat properties/abilities in real life. Please try to think about it in that way.
I know, I know. ;) I did not intend to start a discussion about the biology of the mountain goat or something like that, it was just a point, Elite KryPtik brought up, I just couldn't let pass, without at least addressing it, because of some serious errors. xD I didn't wish to sound like I changed my mind about some visual diversification, I still strongly support most of your ideas!

Zitat
Just that ability have siege properties.
What exactly do you mean with "siege properties"? Strong against buildings in general or a replacement / additional option in Erebor's siege department? Because I think Erebor doesn't really need to second option (additional siege), but I could very well see the idea behind an anti-ressource building weapon. It could add extremely much too the faction (in a wider gameplay sense) to give Erebor the option to use its chariots as a harassment tool (while they already have a lot against fortified positions).


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 7. Nov 2015, 00:08
No problem Melkor my friend! :) It was fine expressing your opinion on that mater you said it is OT and said about PM discussing it ,so nothing wrong is done! :) I too some times can't let things pass and jsut have to adress them  [ugly]

Now about the Oil Cask,I think Elite meaint something like Oil Cask but stronger and better against Buildings!? I think at least that is it! :D
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 7. Nov 2015, 00:11
I'm not going to get into an intense discussion about the laws of physics. Notice I said a child COULD pull the chariot, not that they could pull the chariot effectively or rapidly. A 4 legged mountain goat could very easily pull the chariot, because they have a low center of gravity which gives them much more pulling and pushing force then a human could get on the same level. The best example I can give is the gate of Minas Tirith, which because of fine-tuned balance and well oiled gears, can be opened by only 2 men. The same concept applies to the wheels of a chariot, it makes the chariot extremely easy to move forward and backward on a level plain. Now this of course doesn't include turning and going up/downhill, but its pointless to argue things on a case-by-case basis. In the end, the chariot could still be pulled by a single ram, very easily. :)

In regards to changing the healing upgrade to some supplies, like beer barrels and food, I would definitely agree. It makes no sense to me to have a hearth on a moving war chariot, all that would do is add the hazard of falling into the fire for the people aboard the chariot xD To take it a step further, maybe there could be some visual medical supplies as well, IE some bandages and potions.

As for the Erebor Explosive/Flash Flame ability, I did indeed mean something that can be used to deal good damage to buildings, though not necessarily to gates or walls. In the code, the special damage applied to buildings is literally called "siege" damage, which is why I said siege.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 7. Nov 2015, 00:19
I love lively discussion guys!You made me very happy today with showing interest in my humble idea! I am honored by al lfo you really! :)

Now Elite I too thought about Adding some Medical Supplies too but jsut didn't know how to show them in the Game,I mean a Red Cross will not do for obvious reasons  [uglybunti] [uglybunti]

But indeed it will be a nice touch to add them,the upgrade will be caleld "Provisions' or "Long Road Supplies" what you guys thing!? Same effect,just different visual and name!? :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 7. Nov 2015, 00:20
:) I am glad you support us with this. :)
I agree completely with you, any science proofs and similar stuff you can discuss via PM. :)
I just meant, Oil cask or maybe that movie Balin's bomb with area damage property.
Maybe in sake of this discussion we could suggest that this ability have explicit damage to buildings? xD But I am more for not changing current oil cask in case of erebor faction.
Thats all from me.

Kind regards
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 7. Nov 2015, 00:24
I think that since the Demolisher and Catapult both already get the Oil Cask ability, it makes sense to replace it with something more suitable on the battlewagons. Balins bombs in the movie are called "Flash Flame" you can hear Thorin ask Balin if he can still make them.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 7. Nov 2015, 00:27
Ok, I understand you.
But what property this ability will have? What are suggestions?
Maybe to do some fire damage during time on building, explicit siege damage?
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 7. Nov 2015, 00:36
I would say just high damage to buildings, while dealing less damage to units. Since they are kind of like early flash bang grenades the way they are presented in the film, it could have a unit stun property?
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 7. Nov 2015, 00:38
I must say it sounds nice!! To ahve some DMG against Buildings and just Stun for short time Units like Flash Granade! :)

I like this idea it sounds interesting and quite unique! :)

I absolutely 100% agree with this idea! :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 7. Nov 2015, 00:42
Yes, pretty nice suggestion in my opinion, pretty unique so far. Nice siege property and movie presentation "combo".
I think with that properties it could replace that oil cask successfully.
As you said, catapult will still have oil cask so we are not removing it from faction with this suggestion.
I agree about this, lets hear others about this proposal. :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Melkor Bauglir am 7. Nov 2015, 01:07
Hmm, such an explosive is too modern for the dwarves in my opinion. Even Isengard which in the game is the most advanced faction does not possess this kind of mobile explosives. I know, that the dwarves or the men of Dale did build parts of the fireworks at Bilbo's birthday, but to use this technology as a weapon is just the evil way: Twisting nature to his (unnatural) will or using the dark side of technology like mass-war-production, explosives, crucial siege weapons -a theme which is actually much further described in the books where Mordor / Sauron does use exactly these weapons in its / his war. Therefore explosives should be limited extraordinarily and definitely not be available for any good faction.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 7. Nov 2015, 01:13
Well you do have a point! :) But well it is basically an Oil Cask but with Buidling DMG and Little Stun!? Is it so different adn addvanced than the Oil Cask!? :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 7. Nov 2015, 01:18
Yes, basically it is smaller version of Oil Cask, I look on it in that way.
And new property is added for this ability so it is unique in dwarven faction, and so it fit in siege profile of Erebor.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: WarOfTheRingVeteran am 7. Nov 2015, 01:19
I just wanted to say that I fully support LordDain's idea about implementation of war chariots from the Hobbit in Edain; they are one of my favourite things about Dwarves in general!

One more thing; once I came across this interesting animal and I thought it might inspire some concepts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_sheep

I really hope to see improved battle wagons/war chariots!
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 7. Nov 2015, 01:19
Your actually incorrect, I can't remember reading anything about the forces of Morgoth OR Sauron in the main 5 books, those being Silmarillion, The Hobbit and the LOTR trilogy. In the siege of helms deep for example, they sneak through the culvert, they don't blow it open. Its entirely a thing made up by the films, which is fine in my view. The only explosive technology in the books actually comes from the dwarves and Dale, with the fireworks.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 7. Nov 2015, 01:24
Wel lthe Ered Luin Chariot I suggested has basically that Animal but on Steroids :D  Joke aside it is simillar but more Middle Earth Style and stronger to fit the Role my friend! :) I am glad you support our efforts here! :) To me too the IHs War Chariots areo ne of the best War Machines aever and represnt greatly the Strenght of the dwarven Race as craftsmand and engeeneers and MIlitary Developed Kingdo as IHs! :)

About the Oil Cask,I really like the idea of Elite and as I and Crag said it is simply a sligthly different version of the Basci Oil Cask with Stun Effect so I do not see such big of a problem to have it in game! :) I still think it is good idea and unique Ability for Erebor to have! :)

Greetings and goodnight from me my friends,thank you all for the supoprt today! :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 7. Nov 2015, 03:17
That was an awesome suggestion dain Jesus Christ those boars look very fitting to the iron heels and the idea is very unique it will put more color in the game awesome idea man thumps up +1
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 7. Nov 2015, 14:53
After a long discussion with many opniions and ideas to polish the main suggestion I think I should to a Summorize ofwhat we have agreed till now that should be done! :) If someone finds some mistakes or missing stuff feel free to tell me so that I can fix it! :)

Erebor:


Will be Pulled by 1 of those Animals on  the Picture! :) Will have "Wheel Blades" as a Passvie Ability from the begining! :)
The Main 3 Upgrades will be the Same: Healing,Axe Throwers and Banner! :)
The Active Ability from "Oil Cask" should become "Flash Bombs" basically a better "Oil Cask" but doing DMG against Buildings with Short Time "Stun" Effect on Infantry Units! :) It will be in connection with Eredbor Basic Strenght being good in Siege and Against Buildings! :)

Ered Luin:


Will be Pulled by 1 of the Animals on the Picture Above! :) It will also have "Wheel Blades" as  a Passive Ability from the Begining! :)
The Main 2 Upgrades stay te same: Healing,Crossbowmans,Banner! :)
Active Ability: Will be "Great Shields",which mean two Warriors on the Chariot will hold 2 Big Shields on each side of the Chariot,providing temporarly Big Boost in the Armor ofthe Chariot Against Spearmans! :) It is in connection with Ered Luin Basic Strenght being Armor and Deffense! :)

Iron Hills War Chariot:



It will be Pulled by 1 Ram! :) It will aslo have "Wheel Blades" as a Passive Ability from the Begining! :)
The Main Upgrades will be the same: Healing,Archers,Banner! :)
Active Ablity: Semi-Automatic Crossbow,it will be active for 10-15 Seconds making Rapid Firing and after that 20-25 seconds Cool Down represnting the need to Reload! :) It will connect with Iron Hills Basic Strength being Speed and DMG! :)

Now something for King Dain II of Erebor! :)
His current Second Ability is Summonin of a Battlewagon which can be Mounted by a Hero!The Ability will stay the same ,BUT the Chariot should be changed!Here is how it should look! :)



It will be Pulled by 1 Armored Boar!The Boar will represnt the Royal Crest of Dain's House and along with the Design of the Chariot will represnt the Connection of Dain to Iron Hills and his Past as Lord of Iron Hills! :) Same Upgrades with same Active Ability as Iron Hills War Chariot,BUT to not make Erebor too OP I think the Ability should have a Limit  of 5 Chariots no more Summon than 5 ,based on the number of Heroes Erebor has! :)

Here is how the Passive Abilitye Button for "Wheel Blades" can look for King Dain II IHs Chariot or for all 3 Kingdoms Chariots if the Team decides they all should have the same! :)


Thanks to CragLord for the nice Button Image,he was faster than me yet again in creating it! Good work Crag as alwasy,thank you very much! :)

And Finally the "Healing" Upgrade: Should get a different presentation on the War Chariots for Logical Reasons! :) Bringing a Burning Fire or Fire Place on a War Chariot is not Logical,being inconvinient and dangerous to the Crew! :) So instead of the Fireplace  we should get a Barrel with Beer and Cups Attached to it on the One Side of teh Chariot and on the Other Side a Packages with Food and Medical Supplies,it WILL HAVE the Same Effect as Healing Building just with different Visual Look and name!It can be called "Provisions" or "Long Road Supplies"! :)

I think this all Summorize the ideas being Polished till now,if someone disagrees or has something to add,I will be more than happy to add his idea or discuss it here! :)

Greetings and best Regards to all! :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Fredius am 7. Nov 2015, 15:44
Perfect! This is exactly the kind post I'm looking for to translate! I'll halt the translations about the Ballista for now for further discussions, and if you don't mind I'll translate your last post and put in the German Forums?

By the way can you put this post also in the first post? That way people who are new to this thread can see the whole suggestion without needing to look through the whole discussions.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 7. Nov 2015, 16:09
I think Dain have done this also because of that translation. :)

I agree, but I must say Dain here made a precise comment. Still on that first one we can find reasons why we want this change (geographical diversity, skin colors which correspond nicely to each dwarven faction color theme (white mountain goats for Blue/white color theme of Ered Luin, That brown muscular goat for Erebor brown color theme)).

Btw, now we need to suggest that palantir buttons looks for those abilities, and we have complete suggestion. :)

With all respect, before anyone vote in poll it would be nice to express their opinion about this suggestion in term of comment, after all, I think that dedication of some people here, (Dain's at first place) deserve that, not only simple vote which could ruin this topic into ground. Thank you!

Kind regards
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: WarOfTheRingVeteran am 7. Nov 2015, 16:10
Oh damn, that's beautiful! The abilities each chariot has perfectly resemble the strengths the kingdom where it belongs to, and it adds to the uniqueness of Dwarven factions.

Again, I really hope to see those concepts in Edain, if the rest of the Team likes them :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 7. Nov 2015, 16:31
Thanks for the support guys! :-)
I am currently not at home but when I am back I will add it to the First Post! :-)

Of course Fredius you can translate it,I partly did it for you! :-)

Greetings! :-)

P.S.I agree with Crag! :-) Voting without stating your reasons is not so polite and respectful neither to me nor to all other people who gave their best about this idea and discuss about it with such passion and energy! :-) Hope you understand me properly! :-)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Fredius am 7. Nov 2015, 16:51
Thanks Dain :). And Crag you are absolutely right, I think it's best to merge the First post with this summary, because the first post contains the reasons why the War Chariot should be remade.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 7. Nov 2015, 18:46
Zitat von: LordDainIronfoot am  7. Nov 2015, 14:53
+1 to everything said here.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 7. Nov 2015, 19:28
Thank you Elite!I am glad you like it and support it! :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 7. Nov 2015, 20:27
I ask you not to take my comment as serious one, and please don't spam too much after it. :P :D
During some research on net I have just found it, and I think this is good place to share this photo:

So, this is proof we needed about usage of this animals. xD  :D  :D  :D

P.S. About species in wild, here are two good articles about Bighorn Sheep which is very similar to current design of rams in game: Bighorn Sheep (http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/animals/mammals/rocky-mountain-bighorn-sheep/)
And Mountain Goat, which is a bit larger and muscular species which we suggested for Ered Luin: Mountain Goats (http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/animals/mammals/mountain-goat/).
Also, if you find this interesting, take a look at fast facts about species, size and weight. Those are pretty strong animals.

Kind regards
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 7. Nov 2015, 20:31
xD Awesome pics xD
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: KingdomofErebor am 7. Nov 2015, 22:10
He's not the only one my Friend, I totally support all you're ideas, I LOVED the chariots in the films, they looked so imposing, so much that Azgo made them prime targets for his orcs because they were so dangerous!

I love the idea of different goat breeds, works perfectly in my opinion

also if the team does nothing else they HAVE to have that Boar chariot for Dain it looks so damn cool!

Lets hope the team put it in the game!

KHAZAD AI MENU!
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Garlodur am 7. Nov 2015, 23:06
I am completely in favour in LordDainIronfoot's idea, simply because it comes from diversifying the three subfactions of the Dwarves, which is just in my opinion as they have been with other aspects.

However, I was wondering what effect the 'Wheel Blades' would have as a passive ability. I believe that something more should be added than just simple trampling.
I was thinking of an Area of Effect kind of damage because it would give the Chariot the little more width that it misses compared to a battalion of cavalry. As of now, the Battlewagon needs some time to trample an entire battalion of infantry and, unless you're like an AI, it requires some icky manoeuvring to crash all enemy units. With a increased (imagined) width this could be solved.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 7. Nov 2015, 23:12
It really warms my heart that so many people like my small idea and it turned out to be such a great discussion! :)

Well it is still under Development and any idea is weclomed there! :)

But I think the Wheel Blades can do just some small Area DMG to Infrantry!?

What you think about that!? :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 7. Nov 2015, 23:22
i think it should do a small area dmg to horses to
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 7. Nov 2015, 23:42
Small Are DMG to Infantry should be enough and if we give same to Cavalry the Chariots will become way to OP my friend! :-)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 7. Nov 2015, 23:51
It wouldn't make any sense to have the wheel spikes deal damage to horses, they are an anti-infantry weapon. Cavalry can't trample other cavalry :P

I would agree to have it be a very moderate area damage, just very small to each side.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Garlodur am 7. Nov 2015, 23:54
Sure, from a strategic point of view that makes sense, but game-wise it is a bit strange to have the AoE damage stop when it runs through cavalry.

Which leads me to the point of asking whether it is even possible to add such an effect to a MOVING Chariot, as very few units have the ability to attack while walking.

In that case, I would propose that the model for the chariot be made with a bit of 'empty space' on the sides of the Wheel Blades because this will represent the area damage the wheels do.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 8. Nov 2015, 00:08
Well it is logical for the Chariot to have that Small Area DMG! :-)
About the Cavalry,well the Chariots are never meant to fight against Cavalry because Cavalry can simply avoid it and escape with ease,plus in Game the Chariots are weak.against Cavalry so I do not see why someone should uae it! :-)

Thats why I think that Area DMG against Infantry is just fine! :-)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 8. Nov 2015, 00:33
well dwarves have no cavalry anyway so the chariots can be a lil bit more powerful than horses to balance it
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 8. Nov 2015, 00:43
Totally disagree with that, Dwarves are NOT a cavalry faction and shouldn't be, the chariots are a minor exception but that doesn't mean they should be stronger than cavalry.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 8. Nov 2015, 00:45
Iron Hills now have some Cavalry ;)

Chariots are never meant to.fight Cavalry is what I mean,but they are strong against Infantry so it is pretty balanced! :-)
To me at least! :-) Just as Chariots are supposed I think that is.good!? :-)

P.S.Should I.add the Small Area DMG of the Wheel Blades to the Main Suggestion!? :-)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 8. Nov 2015, 00:50
I got some thoughts about passive spikes ability.
As you have suggested, it is reasonable that we suggest some area damage on nearby (on sides of chariot) units and for now that should be primary suggestion about that passive ability.
Also if chariot has those spikes then it is dangerous for nearby melee units, so units are trying not to be on chariot way or on it side. So we could suggest that chariot have smaller trample refresh time when we compare it to standard cavalry? Something similar Morgul riders (special unit) have.
Also I got some idea about that Oil Cask in Erebor version. Elite suggested that ability should have stun on units if it is implemented like "Flash fire". If in some case this stays as Oil Cask ability then we could also suggest that on units this ability have area effect in term of slowing movement those units in area for great %.
So damage dealing ability + area movement slow on units (just suggesting :) )

What do you think about this?  :)
Regards
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 8. Nov 2015, 01:23
Can't seem to properly understand what you mean on the Trample refresh my friend,sorry fo that! :)

I have added the Small Area DMG Effect to the Main Post on First page,if you do not agree please let me know so that I can remove it! :)

Greetings and best regards to all! :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 8. Nov 2015, 01:33
Well I don't know term for that if it exist at first place.
When battle wagon or cavalry unit trample few enemies, it slow down and can't trample in next few seconds (i was refering on that time).
I think that similar abilty exist on Morgul ridder units (special unit which can be produced on Minas Morgul Outpost) if you need comparison in game.
Does anyone understand me? :P
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 8. Nov 2015, 01:36
Simple said after first Clash between a Chariot and Infantry Unit and the Chariot Trampple them after that for Few Sconds it shouldnt be able to Trample!? :)

About Oil cask you mean Oil Cask on Catapults and Demolishers to Slow Down Unit!? :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 8. Nov 2015, 01:40
No, I will post tomorrow in more detailed way what I thought. :P
Goodnight. :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 8. Nov 2015, 18:03
Hello people,

Concerning WarChariot passive ability "Wheel Spikes", I was thinking that we could add property to Chariot so it could be able of tramping more enemies then battlewagon does now. Simply Chariot is machine and maybe through this passive we could add this property. Chariot as machine should be able to trample more enemies then standard cavalry unit.
I tried to justify this because of spike upgrade, as if they have spikes at wheel then most of units will try not to be at chariot way or chariot side, so chariots won't be so much slower by units on it sides... That is all.
That suggestion about area damage should stay as primary suggestion, and on this one we could watch as second suggestion?

What do you think about it? :)

Regards
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 8. Nov 2015, 18:10
agree
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 8. Nov 2015, 20:50
So basically your suggesting slower trample deceleration? If that's the case I would agree, provided that it still cannot do more damage than a group of normal cavalry. It should be at best even with cavalry.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 8. Nov 2015, 21:34
I like the idae very much and agree with it!But I think it should co exist with the Small Are DMG! :) Both things but with very low DMG and time!? What you think f that my friends? :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 8. Nov 2015, 21:48
Yes, I am suggesting slower trample deceleration. :)
In general we just buff chariot to be able to trample more units then cavalry or current battlewagon version. Maybe we can also buff trample damage (if Elite didn't refer on it), I think that is most reasonable if we take into consideration that this is heavy machine. So slower trample deceleration and maybe greater trample damage.
If you thought on trample damage then we (you and I) agree about it.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 8. Nov 2015, 21:50
Yup my friend I meant the Slower Deceleration but as I think the Small Area DMG from the Wheel Blades should stay also!? :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 8. Nov 2015, 22:33
I think it is best to suggest as primary proposal area damage effect.
If they don't like that, we should say second proposal is slower trample deceleration with maybe buffed trample damage to units because it is heavy machine not cavalry.
And like third one you can offer mix of those two.

So three suggestion for now. 

Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 8. Nov 2015, 22:44
Hmmmok then,I will add it later to the Main Post on First Page! :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 8. Nov 2015, 23:54
Also Dain it is better if you wait for those Blue Ray video files, so you can made HD palanir buttons for IH crossbow or movie version of those wheel spikes. I think that blue ray comes out on November 17. So some date around that day we will have complete suggestion.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 8. Nov 2015, 23:57
Absolutely agree with you my friend I was planing to do just that! :) I will wait for better HD Pictures and will make those Buttons they will way better then,so I think the waiting will be worth it! :)

P.S. There is and EDIT of teh Main Post in the First Page,I have added the Newest Ideas for the Passive "Wheel Blades" Upgrade! I hope you will like them and give your feedback!Please take a look into them my friends! :)

Greetings and best regards from the Lord of the Iron Hills!! :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Talombur am 10. Nov 2015, 14:28
Greetings,

I am following this Suggestion since the first post, and i have to say that what you guys made out of the first idea, which was already quite good, is simply great. Tolkien (or at least P. Jackson  ;)) would be proud of you.

I vote for the first option, the small area DMG. I think that the Wheel Blades would rather slow the Battlewagon down, because it just hits more enemies.

Furthermore i think that the animals used by Erebor and the one by IH look the same, don't they?

PS: No idea if you noticed, but i am german, but you guys in the english forum have the best ideas  ;) :D

Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Walküre am 10. Nov 2015, 14:43
Zitat von: Talombur am 10. Nov 2015, 14:28
PS: No idea if you noticed, but i am german, but you guys in the english forum have the best ideas  ;) :D


I don't really know if the English Forum has really the best ideas, but, there are surely very dedicated people who often gather precious ideas and convey them to valuable and detailed proposals, as you already noticed yourself  ;)

Also, I'm very glad to hear that there are people who follow carefully and entirely discussions (as it should be) without having any negative prejudice of any kind.
I think that many would be happy and pleasant to hear again your opinion in future topics  :)

Best Regards  ;)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 10. Nov 2015, 15:38
Thank you very much,your opinion honors me and I am more than happy that you like the idea! :)

Well everyone cane ahve good ideas! :)

About the Wheel Blades,you do have some point but to slow the Chariot Down you need to Kill/Slow Down the Rams pulling it so the Blades do not have such a big effect on that! :)

About Erebor Animal,well it is much more Bigger and Muscullar than IHs Ram and the Color is different to my friend! :)

Thank you for the kind words and feedback,I will be glad to see your opinion in our Old and New Threads alike! :)

Greetings and best regards from the Lord of the Iron Hillsl! :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: ringbearer am 12. Nov 2015, 16:17
Full support for this idea! :) Love that Dwarves have so much attention from the community
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 12. Nov 2015, 16:26
Thank you for the support mate! :)

I too am most happy to see the Dwarven Race get more attention! For which I thank to Edain Team! :)

Greetings and best regards from the Lord of the Iron Hills! :)


Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Fredius am 14. Nov 2015, 04:32
Translations have started on this suggestion, expect to see it either today or sunday.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: lotr1997 am 23. Nov 2015, 01:44
Great idea this is one of the best ideas ive seen for edain and i love to see community members so active!  :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Amandil7 am 23. Nov 2015, 11:47
I love this idea! <3  :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 23. Nov 2015, 12:22
Thank you guys for the support,I am really happy to see how many people like and support the idea and cherish the efforts we put in creating it and polishing it! :) You are alwasy welcome to express your ideas and feelings towards the idea! :)

And as it seems tere are still people who doesnt like the idea and I doubt we will ever learn why,but I am most hapyp that the majority likes it! :)

Thank you all!...

Greetings and best regards from the Lord of the Iron Hills! :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 25. Nov 2015, 23:21
Dain tell me to inform you that on first page of this topic you will find "first" complete version of this proposal! :)
Officially Dain and I have finished with graphics and sound details concerning this proposal, and with it, this Dwarven War Chariot suggestion is complete. :)
We are glad to hear your opinions about complete version, and we expect your feedback!
Thanks to all people whose were participating in "polishing" of this suggestion and topic in general. :)

Kind Regards,
CragLord
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 26. Nov 2015, 05:38
Great work Dain and especially Crag for the custom icons and sounds. You've summarized everything perfectly. 1 thing to note though, the way you have the suggestion setup seems to not leave much room for debate, I would put at both beginning and end of the post that the idea can be restructured freely by the team for balance and according the teams desire, but that's just me personally :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 26. Nov 2015, 06:58
As I have stated in the First Post any new ideas and opinions are welcomed to be dicussed! :) We just think that the suggestion is polished by us all to the point where the Team can take it if it want and use what they want in anyway they want it,that is something that is not needed to be mentioned! :)

Greetings and best regards! :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Walküre am 26. Nov 2015, 11:38
Zitat von: Elite KryPtik am 26. Nov 2015, 05:38
1 thing to note though, the way you have the suggestion setup seems to not leave much room for debate, I would put at both beginning and end of the post that the idea can be restructured freely by the team for balance and according the teams desire, but that's just me personally :)


I think that it's always necessarily implied that the Edain Team has the last word on everything, since they obviously are the ones who personally might choose to implement something or not, and that everyone has always the possibility of expressing further opinions, as long as the thread is not locked.
So, you could legitimately give this kind of information in a concept you propose, but it's not really compulsory  :)

Yes, I agree, Dáin and Crag you have done a really dedicated and detailed work, clearly exposed and debated, backed also by a relative constructive poll.
What could a Moderator ask more?  :P
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 26. Nov 2015, 16:08
Thanks Elite, your opinion is always appreciated, you are well know here as person of objective thought. :)
Concerning your mini suggestion, I will try not to quote Dain or Walk. xD
I personally think we were supposed to do that from objective&manners reasons, but as Walk have said but it's not really compulsory, simply because ET have last word here, and everyone knows that. :)
They will use current shape of this suggestion or some other changed shape which is more fitting in their opinion if they find this proposal useful in first place. :)
Concerning further debate, there is always place, simply I have underlined in my previous comment this is "first" complete proposal. :) But if you have that feeling about debate, that gives me also a feeling that we have done good job, which is good thing in one way. xD
We have just tried to polish it to final level from aspect of proposal, all parts have been suggested, and we have done everything which is in domain of our possibilities right now. :) Because of that this is final concept as proposal from our side. It is of course, subject to change in any term by Edain team. :)
And again, any new suggestion concerning this proposal are welcome. :)

P.S. If there is anything which need to be questioned about sounds now or in future I am responsible for those files. :) Simply I state this because if some other kind of sound effect is needed for crossbow upgrade I will make it, I have tried to find source files for single crossbow shot. If team decide to develop some kind of automatic "burst" crossbow ability, I can make new sound effect which will correspond to duration of that burst, it is not problem at all. :)

Kind regards,
CragLord
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Fredius am 26. Nov 2015, 17:42
Excellent work guys, I don't think it can be even more perfected!
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: magickoala am 26. Nov 2015, 23:34
Amazing work there, guys, this looks like a real effort of planning, lore concept and well balanced changes. I think the amount of content here is enough to make the idea work by itself. Really impressive!

I would like to point some notes:

1. The skill *Flash bombs* name seems a bit off for me. While dwarves are know for minor powder manipulation, theyre not anything near Saruman's use of explosives or similar powder-powered devices. A dwarf using a bomb creates a gap between the native knowledge of the dwarves and the *possibilities*. The concept of the skill itself sounds OK, thou.

2. The Ered Luin and Erebor chariots looks very much like the same,while the Iron Hills chariot have its own exquisite design. I suggest you plan over changing some aspects on the shape of the first or latter, this way you can easly identify them when in battle.

3. The mountain goats are awsome, lol.

4. Ered Luin Great Shield:
While i love the concept and the idea,i think the icon shouldnt have a 2D plain perspective approach. Radial buttons dont go very well with plain front pictures, makes is slightly confusing to understand when in the small palantir ring. While it works very well for Stances and other *Activate Skill* abilities, as these icons must be absolutely clear, it makes confusing when picturing a *Research Skill Ability*.
The main reason behind this is because dwarven shields are always square, and putting those inside a radial button messes with the depth perception on the drawing itself.

Heres a example for a perspective shield:
http://marr3d.com/uploads/1/1/9/7/11974703/3286015_orig.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1jdjh8a.jpg

3. Your icons are going great, thus if you notice, most of BFME2 radial icons have a little blue gradient/sky-like/orby thing in the background. Edain seems to follow that pattern,so would be cool to paintup a background with some blue and white brushing.

4. The Dain II Wheel icon its a little too dark since it have a lot of natural shadowing for a picture. The details will pretty much vanish ingame :) try to bright up a little the shadowed parts. ^^

5.Wheelblades icon looks very cool ^^

6.These armored boars are actual models or screens from a editor? They look really badass!

7.As i think the Hero Chariots are absolutely glorious, i think just a king should be able to ride such a noble vehicle. Your plan is to make heroes able to attack inside chariots? If so, it would be epically OP if widespread to 5 heroes .. o.0 lol I like it thou, xD

8;Base Area DMG for the effect, sounds a bit more straightforward, easier to deal it, and that splash damage is nice. They will be like Rohan horseman on steroids while trampling thou, so it need to have a weakness. Pikes?

Overall, i think this is an awsome idea and revitalizes the lore on the wagons for the dwarves, making them more close to the universe without hurting the mechanics. Hoping that it happens :)

Cheers o/

Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 27. Nov 2015, 01:44

Thank you very much man, for those words. :)
Your opinion is more then welcome. :)

We have worked on this concept for longer period of time, with no hurry. :) And through discussion with other members we have polished this concept.
I will try to answer you on your questions, but expect some answers more especially from Lord Dain. :)

1. Skill "Flash bombs" have used because of Hobbit movies mainly. I can't remember who suggested it (i think it was Elite), but idea is used from second Hobbit movie, when Balin goes to dwarven armory (or chemical lab :D ) and makes some of those bombs. They later use it on Smaug, but without effect. xD
That is basic idea for name of ability and effect on units (stun effect). About lore things, we had some discussion about it before I think, and at the end we decide to call it flash bombs. We kept effect on buildings as main one, because Erebor is "siege" faction amoung dwarves, and that effect on units mainly because of idea from movie and mainly because of balace, because other chariots abilities are also good in some way.
If there is some other more appropriate name on your mind, or if someone else have idea for if or effects of ability, we will gladly discuss and improve this concept. :)

2. Yes, we know, but we just wanted to use three different models, but we got depleted with material about third one (this is mostly from weta books, and sadly we haven't found some third model for this chariots).
IH has model of chariots from third Hobbit movie, EredLuin and Erebor have same one, but there will be different animals and different abilities to underline difference between those dwarven realms. :)
Again, if you have some suggestion we are more then glad to hear. :)

3. It is magnificent animal. I have done some research because this concept, and this species lives on cliffs, don't have sounds (have one or three tones which uses for communication) and it is able to jumb from cliff to cliff which are separated by 50 meters of abyss. It is species of wild goats which is very recognizable, and we think some model inspired by it should be in game. :)

4. I agree, and believe you, just I needed much more practise so I could think in that way. I will try to improve it in that way. :) Thank you so much for this advice!

3. (again :D ) Yes, agree, just tell me for some exaple in game, so I could make visual contact. :) Best way to learn is by example. :)

4.  I will try to improve it, so I need to select darker parts and only to make them a bit brighter. xD
I will try.

5. Thank you!

6. It is work by some guy from net, weta inspired him. Dain found them, so he will give you answers about that, I am pretty without more info.

7. No, it is not planed that heroes can fight from those royal chariots. It's main role will be ofc transport of heroes, because of that Dain limited them to 5, so every hero can have it's personal chariot. Nice thought about heroes, but I think it will be too much. xD

8. Yes, every single of them will be instant pike vulnerable (except maybe EredLuin's ones, they will have some defence boost by their ability in limited time, if team implement them in currently suggested way). Currenlty in game exist some problem with battle wagons, their armor is very low in general against melee. One of ides of this topic was to improve those weaknesses some how. :)

Thank you for your feedback, it was very instructive and useful. We are opened for every new idea, so fell free to suggest, corrects us etc.

Kind regards,
CragLord
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: magickoala am 27. Nov 2015, 01:54
1. Now that you bring it, there was such a thing indeed lol, fair enough.

2. Why not the original? It just need better animals/a decent texture and boom! :)
https://goo.gl/cVX0fk

3. And it looks badass in armor! :D

7. Mobile Assault Charriot with Gandalf on the top sounds soo right. XD

8. Yea, overall they should be vulnerable to infantry. They shouldnt be 1 : 1 with
medium Rohan cavalry thou, since the area damage will make it a top tier unit, so...
Anyway, i feel its on the right way.

Nah, keep going man, this is looking great!
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 27. Nov 2015, 04:09
Rohan Cavalry isn't necessarily the best in Middle Earth, but the thing is they have the most. They can field the most cavalry the fastest in middle earth, that's what makes them so dangerous. So yes, battlewagons should be individually stronger than Rohans cavalry, but at the same time much more expensive.

As for the flash bombs, my original idea for the name was "Flash Flame" to match what Thorin asks in the movie "Thorin: Can you still make flash flame? Balin: Aye, it'll only take a jiffy!"
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 27. Nov 2015, 11:49
I've read the Edited OP with the final proposal. It's a lot to crunch through so it took me a bit longer than expected

1.Erebor Chariot
I agree with everything there. It all makes sense and is lore accurate. I would like to suggest a thing to discuss:
-make Erebor slightly slower than its other versions but with better defense to emphasize the Strong Kingdom of Erebor.

2. Ered Luin Chariot
Same here: sounds good, looks good. As with the previous I would suggest a slight speed stat boost with a lower defense to emphasize the mobility.

3. Iron Hills Chariot
Nothing different: looks good and sounds marvelous. The usual suggestion: boost and speed and dmg against defense. Semi-automatic crossbow sounds awesome.

The stats boost are very small, they won't make much difference but if you were to have a chariot competition each would win in its own category.

4. The Hero Chariot
Good idea for the skin change, the limit will bring a good balance to the game.

5. Effects
I also vote for #3 since I agree with Dain, I would also suggest that therefore battle wagons should get a speed nerf as to be slower but lose less Deceleration.

6. Provision
I like the idea, it makes it more realistic. If you go with the idea of beer to heal the dwarves I suggest that the effect be stronger then the other healing buildings but also reduce speed slightly much in the same manner as the spellbook heal.

I don't have much else to say, you guys have really polished this and all that's left now is to wait for the team to respond. Well done, a clap from the Shadow of Dol Guldur to you guys  xD
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 27. Nov 2015, 14:43
@Necromancer,

I just wanted to point out that you read the concept of the dwarven realms and their according battlewagons incorrectly. Ered Luin is the most defensive one, Erebor the most building and siege oriented one, and Iron Hill is about speed and offense. Ered Luin has heavy infantry and should probably have either the lightest or the heaviest one, depending on how you look at it. The other then goes to Erebor, and the most different one goes to Iron Hills, with the semi-automated crossbow.

That is all :P
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 27. Nov 2015, 16:57
That's true, ugh... Can't do anything right today. Hopefully you get the concept though.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 27. Nov 2015, 18:03
No worries, it was clear ;).

The concept is well thought out and the attention to detail leaves very little to be desired. Well done lads!

My first concern originally was that it would have been an additional cavalry unit to the Dwarves next to the Battlewagon, but as the faction is primarily designed to be an infantry-based faction, it would have been contradicting to the design. However, I was thankfully proven wrong, as the idea has been made so that the now vanilla Battlewagon will be revised with distinguishing features, just like how most units of the Dwarven Realms have received.

I absolutely love it. The difference in playstyle, but also in visuals among the revised Battlewagons of the different realms clearly took time to shape it to the form it currently possesses. You even have made your own work  to complement the proposal. Fantastic! Surely, the team cannot refuse such an elaborate proposal :P.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 27. Nov 2015, 20:35
Maybe we could call it "Flash Flame Barrels" then? If bombs sounds inappropriate in dwarven terms, because only true "bombs" in Tolkien world was used from Saruman.
In my opinion Flash Flame Barrels sounds ok. What do you think about this?

It sounds ok, but there should be some serious change (some details of realm etc, color), and somehow to be able to add those wheel spikes so we could integrate this in concept. Dain need to give some opinion about this, after all this is his concept in main term. :) I like this, if we can make some good recognizable change on chariots. :)
At the end, there is also information which we should take into consideration concerning this matter a bit, Erebor and Ered Luin are mostly same dwarves (in origin), so maybe in this situation we can call our decision to have same chariots model justified in that term. Third different skin would be probably better, but we can also live in current sitation. It is my opinion. :)

They should be vulnerable to pikes as part of infantry, not vulnerable to swordsmen, if you had chance to experienced in game, battle wagons are too weak against swordsmen damage. In my opinion this is balance issue. We suggested new abilites and in particular case, armor buff for Ered Luin so we catch up with this issue in some way.

Thank you very much, we will try to give our best. :)

Thank you for your time and you feedback. :)
We appreciate it. :)

Thank you for this comment. :)
If we have managed to change your opinion about this, we are very glad to hear that. :)
That gives us motivation for further developing of this concept, of course in interaction will all these dedicated members. :)

Regards,
CragLord
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 28. Nov 2015, 00:10
I don't really understand why the "barrels" needs to be added to the name at all, I see no issue with just calling it Flash Flame.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 28. Nov 2015, 00:39
If you as native speaker see that as redundant word, I am out of any complaint.

P.S. As someone who isn't native speaker of English, Flash Flame reminds me on name of some "instant casting" spell from wizard etc, not on some dwarven engineering contrivance. Because of that, I suggested word "barrels" at the end.

Regards,
CragLord
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 28. Nov 2015, 19:54
Zitat von: magickoala am 26. Nov 2015, 23:34
Your icons are going great, thus if you notice, most of BFME2 radial icons have a little blue gradient/sky-like/orby thing in the background. Edain seems to follow that pattern,so would be cool to paintup a background with some blue and white brushing.

Is this what you meant?

Improved graphics:


So what do you think about this? Are buttons now more suitable for implementation? Dain will probably upload first page with those graphics when he get some free time. :)

Regards,
CragLord
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 28. Nov 2015, 22:33
awesome crag as always
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Nov 2015, 23:54
Ok, I edited the first post with the updated pictures as Dáin asked me  :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 29. Nov 2015, 00:01

Great, thanks Walk.
So now we have 'second' final proposal. :)

P.S. Thanks Gray! :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Fredius am 30. Nov 2015, 21:45
The German forums are now officialy aware of this suggestion :):

http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32234.0.html

Now let's see what the Team thinks about the suggestion.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 30. Nov 2015, 21:46
That is nice to hear Fred. :)
Thank you for your effort man! :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Walküre am 1. Dez 2015, 02:49
Zitat von: Fredius am 30. Nov 2015, 21:45
The German forums are now officialy aware of this suggestion :):

http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32234.0.html

Now let's see what the Team thinks about the suggestion.


As usual, sincere gratitude for your remarkable efforts, Fredius.
It's very significant for the English Community  :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 1. Dez 2015, 06:53
Thank you Fredius for that hard work and the spared time,I am more than grateful!
I apologize to all for my absence but I have some big personal problems and have lost my will and motivation xi hope tp return soon!

Greetings and best regards from the Lord of the Iron Hills! :-)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Ealendril der Dunkle am 1. Dez 2015, 12:04
Zitat von: Fredius am 30. Nov 2015, 21:45
Now let's see what the Team thinks about the suggestion.
The team is around here, too. ;) You dont have to post that in the german section to keep our attention. Finally, we read every comment in our forum.
But i think its very great that you try to cooperate with the german users.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 1. Dez 2015, 17:49
Zitat von: Ealendril am  1. Dez 2015, 12:04
But i think its very great that you try to cooperate with the german users.

After so much spent time on this suggestion in thinking and graphical polishing, we thought that it would be nice to share this with whole community, and we are eager to hear opinions and thoughts about this from german side of forum.
As one of members who supported and helped with polishing of this idea from beginning, I would like to discuss with german members about this idea. What I mostly fear is that idea could be understood in wrong way from beginning of discussion, because it is new one on german part of forum (as complete proposal), and on english forum this idea had long polishing process (and that process still lasts, there are some mini "stuff" more to discuss). Simply "wrong" understanding of some parts could lead "momentum" of discussion in wrong way... And on this topic we discussed about the most of issues in a detailed way, so there wasn't possibility of wrong understanding of some suggestion parts etc.
What we are on the other hand "short", is to develop maybe proper discussion with german members on that topic, of course because our language "barrier".

Best regards,
CragLord
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 1. Dez 2015, 22:36
I shouldn't worry crag, the pool overwhelmingly supports the idea here, and I'm sure the German side will have similar results :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 2. Dez 2015, 19:56
Yes, I hope that results will be similar on German side also. :)

As I have said this is officially "second" final version, so now we can start thinking about third one. :)
Now, guys I had couple of games today with Erebor mainly, and I have tried to test as much as possible current battle wagons.
Results are pretty same, instant pike trample destruction (which should be in my opinion), and pretty overpowered damage from standard swordsmen attack, and I hope this will be changed in near future. But mostly what I wanted to test was Oil casks, as much as possible.
Currently in game, Oil casks do area damage against enemy units and do 0 damage to structures.

Now, to take a look at our suggested abilities and their comparison.
I find crossbow ability and shield ability pretty decent ones and equal in their comparison. But this Flash bombs are a bit undefined still and I think weaker then those two (this is also I think good time to ask some balance testers about comparison). What I want to say, our current suggestions about this improvement ability is to replace damage ability on units with stun effect and to add damage on buildings. Which in general won't be so useful as shield activation ability after which we can use "comfortably" (in some level ofc) wagons to destroy pike formation and trample them for some time, or crossbow ability which will do some decent damage to enemies (we also haven't define some things about this, so I will also try to define them later with your help :) ), so flash bombs are bit underpowered. We can't damage enemy units (instead we stun them in area and hope that after that we could preform some effective trample, which ofc isn't certain thing like bonuses we get from crossbow (in term of damage) and from shields (in term of defence)) and we suggested damage on buildings which I find really suitable in term of Erebor faction (after all current Oil casks (or flash bombs as their improved version) are flammable liquids and they should damage buildings in first place in my opinion).
So what I find a bit out of place is that we replace certain current damage on units with stun effect which doesn't "claim" us certain damage or successful possibility to damage after it with chariots in trample (what I want to say is that experienced players always use pikes in combination with other units, pikes always protect them, so we will be able in that situation to stun those enemy units in area but they will stay protected by pikes and our instant trample idea is wasted in some way...  I have also reconsidered situation, we stun enemy units and then with our range units we do damage, but then we can't use trample again on them (because of pikes) and enemy units will also probably have backup by their range units etc, so in general we couldn't use trample in decent way).

So I have thought a lot about these things and I think we should also reconsider next proposals:

Now few things about crossbow which we haven't determined yet.
We have suggested that crossbow will be activation ability which will be active for 10-15 sec and then will cool down until it will be again ready for use. So we haven't be precised.
I also got some thoughts about this, so I tried to describe usage in a bit more detailed way.


So, guys, what do you think about this? :)
Be free to share any thoughts and suggestions!

Best Regards,
CragLord
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 3. Dez 2015, 00:25
So, before posting my thoughts I just want to note that my initial idea for Flash Flame was just basically a reskin of the Oil Casks to match the film, you guys are the ones who came up with making it anti building. Anyways on to my thoughts.

If we look at the Erebor sub-faction as a whole, they are simply not effective on the field of battle. Most of their formations and special abilities revolve around damaging buildings or defending better in castles. Simply put, Erebor is not ever picked by skilled players online, the vast majority go with Iron Hills for the speed and aggression, and Ered Luin follows at a close second. Erebor are only really effective when defending or assaulting fortresses (Helms Deep, etc.). Therefore, I see no reason why we should change this for their war chariots. The rest of the faction isn't so great on the field of battle, so why mshould the chariots have an exception? I personally am quite fine with the ability as it has been presented, it synergizes with the rest of the faction very well.

In terms of the crossbow, I think it should be the same as Legolas' Arrow Wind, you target a specific area with your cursor, and the crossbow fires a set number of bolts at all units in that area for a set time, even if they leave the area of the cursor. This makes the most sense to me in terms of making it function in game.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 3. Dez 2015, 02:34
+1 to Elite's suggestion.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 4. Dez 2015, 02:29

Thanks guys for feedback, I hope we will get some more thought from others about those suggestions.
Ok Elite, I am just trying to take into consideration some facts, nothing direct to you or to ability's name you have suggested. ;)
As you have said we have suggested that siege damage not you, and I really don't have problem with that. From "consistency" view, those bombs or casks or barrels should be filled with flammable liquids or flammable matter so it is real to expect some siege damage from this ability on buildings. I don't say that is necessary for Erebor in term of balance (they already have enough siege damage), but from consistency view I have and general siege "look" of faction I find that justified. What I found a bit "risky move" is damage we have eliminated on units. I just have similar look as you, but maybe lesser balance or PvP experience. Simply I agree that Erebor is specific dwarven faction as you have described it. And that isn't great in field of battle. Because of facts that you with units can't do (damage for example) as your current enemy (for example some more offensive faction), I find current damage area effect of Oil cask as supportive ability.
Simple situation is that you have 2 battle wagons (one upgraded with heal second with banners) on back of your army, doing supporting role. When your enemy and your infantry start fighting, you cast 2 Oil casks and do some area damage on enemy's infantry units, so basically, you have helped you infantry, make their job easier (and if we even increase it a bit more, it would do decent job). Of course that is current situation with wagons, we mainly use them on back as supportive units in general, not concerning only Erebor (I hope with this proposal that will be changed). But simply is worthy to lose such damage in game for faction which isn't great on field of battle as you have said? That was my point of view, and because of it, I have suggested those 2 proposals in my previous comment.
Now what also I want to ask you is what will be usage of stun effect, and how it will be in synergy with Erebor? As defensive mechanism I presume.
I really don't have problem with current name or current effect we have suggested, as I have said from our side this is finished proposal, and team can take it and reshape it, in any term. Just before that happened I wanted we take some more facts into consideration. :)

Now concerning Crossbow suggestions from my previous comment, I just hope that mechanism doesn't require standing in one place as Legolas does when he "channeling" this ability.

Greetings,
Crag
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Aklas am 4. Dez 2015, 13:07
Hi there,
First: I totally support the idea of changing the War Chariots of the Dwarves.

Concerning the "Flash-Bomb": I had an idea,were the Barrel explodes in a huge explosion, dealing strong damage to Buildings and knocking enemy units back (with dealing less damage), similar to the earthquake-ability of the "Dwarven-Create-A-Hero" with a range like Gimlis Jump. I think this would be a great addition to the Erebor and supports the idea of Anti-Building-Faction. I also think the name "Flash-Bomb" doesent fit really, cause a "Flash-Bomb" only stuns units (because its VERY bright) and dealing absolutly no damage against buildings.

I think the idea of "Arrow Wind" for the Crossbow is realy great (already postet this idea in the German Forum on wednessday ^^). If the War Chariot can't move while channeling, my second idea was an Ability like the "Arrow rain" from the Spell Book of Gondor (Also Spell Book Ability of Mordor, i think) but not that huge and strong.

Greetings
Aklas
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 4. Dez 2015, 14:48
Hello Aklas,

Welcome to topic. :)
Thank you for your support, and we are glad to know about it.

Concerning the "Flash-Bomb", I personally find your idea very nice. :)
Now, concerning name and current "general" suggestion of effects it will stay as official one for now.
I agree that Flash Bomb as title is correlated with current stun effect we suggested, and it is less correlated to damage on buildings, so you have right about it.
Know that all of this is subject for change in eyes of team, so everything is possible before this idea is implemented (if it get implemented anyway :) ).
So because of that, I personally find very useful situation that we suggest as more as possible "consistency" proposals about this, so team will have good base for thinking about it.
I would collect all proposals concerning this Erebor ability and IH ability for chariots (and great shields ability for Ered Luin if someone has) and include them as material to think about in general post (something similar we have done with wheel spikes properties). :) So every idea is welcome.

Yes, your idea about "Arrow Wind" was pretty nice, I have managed to read it using translator.  xD So, after that, I have started this "third" polishing process of this proposal.  ;)
I don't agree about your "Arrow Rain" power suggesiton, I personally find it out of place, simply it is not correlated to using of crossbow (or way in which this crossbow works).
So I am against it.

Best Regards,

CragLord
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Fredius am 10. Dez 2015, 20:49
Hello people, I'm a little bit busy in real life at the moment, so I can't be very active as I used to. For the people who haven't checked the poll in the German forums, I can tell you that our suggestion, like Elite predicted, has a majority of fans who agree with our idea (30 votes in favor VS 12 votes against our suggestion!).

However, some members disagree a lot about the implementation of the automatic crossbow in general, because it's not something that fits with Dwarves. Dwarves are good with their hands, but not inventers is what a member said. Also the fact that such a heavy chariot is near impossible to be pulled by just one ram is also something that some fans have noted. Changing the name of Oil Casks to "Flash Bombs" is also unnecessary, especially because it doesn't correspond with the anti-building effect. Like Craig said, at the moment the name is not important, and I fully agree with him. I personally suggest to just keep the name Oil Cask, because I don't think either one of us in both German and English forums will have a problem with the original name.

Also guys, it's important to know that the Dwarven realms will receive a major overhaul for the upcoming beta, both gameplaywise and visually. Depending on what kind of changes the Realms will get we might have to change the concept a little bit.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Odysseus am 11. Dez 2015, 01:38
What about ''Barrel Bomb''? I think it has a nice ring to it :P
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 11. Dez 2015, 02:49

Hello Fred. :)
Those are great news about votes, and we are happy that German side also recognize idea in good way and its potential in general. ;)

I will try to give my personal "answer" on your summary of german side.

First concerning that crossbow matter in general, I presonally find it as really engineering stuff, and I agree that dwarves were mainly miners, blacksmiths, jewelry makers etc But in same time they were hell of warcraftsmen, hell of engineers if we take into consideration buildings etc. I agree with statement that automatic crossbow is a pretty nasty thing, it is very inovative machine, but I presonally find its usage very justifed from aspect that dwarves already use normal crossbow (also IH soldiers use it now in last update, so I really see this automatic crossbow fitting for IH now). And knowledge needed for making of normal crossbow probably presents base for making of this automatic crossbow. Simply I agree it is inovative but I think they were able to make it, simply, we have already balistas, catapults in game. So there is enough engineering knowledge in term of making contrivance in general, and this automatic crossbow in my opinion presents something very similar just oriented in a bit different way.

Now concerning those "consistency" problems about chariot weight etc.
I personaly could understand consistency problems if we are talking about some real life stuff, or some real life engineering problems in general, but this is probably the most irrelevent excuse against this suggestion I have ever heard/seen. Let me explain.
First thing is that we are mainly here proposing skin polishing and adding some properties in correlation with that new skin. So that is main thing which all "supporters" of that consistency weight problem should understand.
Second, first thought (can be seen on first page of this topic) was to add 2 pulling animals. We also reconsider this, but FG was clear, that isn't possible with current model. There exists only animation for one pulling animal.
Then, in game already exists a lot of similar consistency problematic units.
I understand that isn't reason to add more, but current battlewagon unit is also one of them, simply current wagon in consistency terms was probably to heavy to be bulled by one ram, and nobody probably ever saw that as problem. And suddenly now when we have suggested new skin, this is problem. Also not to mention (almost whole in iron) iron Isenguard's balista pushed by 2 childish uruks etc.
To underline this, I am also aware about those consistency problems, but simply in my opinion they are not so important when we take into consideration situation with other machines in game or mod.
Concerning name for ability of Erebor, am I completely to leave that for team at the end. Simply I wanted to collect as more as we could of suggestions of ability effects and suggested names and to leave that to ET. They will  probably (if they desided to implement this in first place) give their personal touch and remake good part of this suggestion. I presume that. :)
As one of supporters of this idea Aklas, have said, that "Flash" part idicates to stun effect, and I really agree with him, if ability remain with stun effect, then we should keep that Flash in name etc
Barrel (as Odysseus suggested above xD) in name for some knock back and damage on buildings or vanila Oil cask as simple one on which we are already used to... Simply I would leave this to the team.

Concerning that last update, I am like the most of you, very excited, and I agree, we should wait for rest of dwarven news, and then to try to polish suggestion. But I think that 90% from our side (our ability to suggest/help etc) is probably over, and all those adjustments should be done by team. ET will know how to implement this suggestiong in correlation with latest dwarven changes.

Best regards Fred!

Crag
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 11. Dez 2015, 04:02

^ +1 to everything said.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Fredius am 12. Dez 2015, 14:53
Perfect explanation Crag, and you're right, let the team decide everything. We have presented our suggestion, now it's up to the team if they want to use it or not ;).
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Aule the creator am 12. Dez 2015, 20:49
they should just make the current one metal skin and spikes on wheels
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: NetoD20 am 12. Dez 2015, 21:23
My reaction as I read the final summarized proposal:

Would like to highlight the different goats/rams for each faction, would look amazing in the mod. Love ered Luin's white Snow Goat with its straighter horns.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 12. Dez 2015, 22:44

Yes, these are maybe "general" words. :)
I just wanted to say that we have done with suggestion probably from aspect of idea and from aspect of our possibilities. I mean, main idea as  graphical and sound proposals are complete from our side, these are probably enough for motivation and detailed explanation of idea in general, so all is on team now I presume. ;)
And all of changes which you suggested that we should done accorning to new dwarven changes, I just wanted to point that the best is to leave that to team. Simply I wanted to say there is enough material for complete reconstruction of idea if that is necessary from team view. And of course, that reconstruction should be done by team, not from us. :)

Regards Fred,
CragLord
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: TheHiilsofIron am 16. Dez 2015, 00:36
Hi guys, been monitoring the thread from the start and havn't had to really say anything because ive agreed with everything so far , I know its in edain's creators hands now but on the note of 2 animals pulling the chariot, It does look like its possible, I found an ancient mod which had these easterling chariots that had 2 horses so im sure edain team would be able to figure it out (sorry if its already been found possible)

(http://dain.the3rdage.net/wainrender.jpg)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: FG15 am 16. Dez 2015, 00:51
The main problem, why a chariot with more than one animal isn't possible is the animation. There aren't any animaitons in the mod, for battlewagons with more than one animal. There are three possible ways to solve this.

1. Create a whole new animation set.
This is an enormous amount of work, and so really unlikely that it will happen.

2. Using submodels or contained objects.
In this case they are basically three different objects, the battlewagon and the animals, which are just linked together. The problem here is, that the animal has to stay always on the same position and can't move a little bit to the left or right. Therefore the model will look really static.
We tried this when creating Radagast's sledge and it didn't look good. I guess in the picture above, the same trick is used.
I can't say it for sure, but it would probably mean that some of the existing animations for the battlewagon couldn't be used anymore. Also, it might give problems with the upgrades of the battlewagon as well.

3. Using a horde, where the animals can move independendly.
This we used for Radagast. Therefore the rabbits can move freely, but there aren't any ropes inbetween. Also this wouldn't work with the battlewagon upgrades.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Gandalf The Gray am 16. Dez 2015, 01:48
well be clear i dont have a problem if the team uses one animal i just want to see other design on the chariots and the animals if possible some crossbow upgrades for Iron Heels and something different for the other chariots.
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: CragLord am 16. Dez 2015, 12:41

Thank you man for trying to help us with this suggestion. :)
Very kind of you. :)


Thank FG for detailed explanation.
Concerning all of that issues with different "solutions", I think it is the best for now to keep one animal. After all, animation and model changing could always be done in some far future by team or someone else who find time and will to create new set of animation for second animal. That is mainly correlated with "consistency" of this proposal and "weight" of new suggested chariot look.
For now I think we could "close one eye" concerning that "consistency" problem and just focus on polishing of look and new abilities etc.
I think that final polishing concerning second animal and creation of new animation set could be done later. Step by step. :)
Personaly if possible to implement solution 3, I wouldn't like to see that. Two goats without visual physical link with chariots, and probably there will be some movement animation bugs which already exist with Radagast form (Rabits moving randomly direction of moving while Radagast casts spells etc).
Same for solution 2, static animals, that would probably reduce our experience concerning this unit and play in general.
From my view new set should be done in some future, simply not to rush with it in my opinion, expecially now when this is demo version and we are expecting new factions and with them probably a lot of more important stuff to work on.


I agree with you Gray. :)

Best regards,
CragLord
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 16. Dez 2015, 12:59
Thanks for all who tried to help with the suggestion! :) And thanks to FG15 for really stating clearly what the issues are! :)

I as Gray and Crag have absolutely no problem for the Chariots to be pulled by 1 Animal,as long as the Suggestions is used about the desgins and etc.! I personalyl have no problem with the Animal being only 1! :)

Greetings to all! :)
Titel: Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
Beitrag von: Elite KryPtik am 16. Dez 2015, 13:07
Just to weigh in on this, I think that adding animations for 2 animals isn't a priority, and can be done much later. I can see no issue with having the chariot pulled by a single animal.
Titel: Elements from the Movie to Incorporate
Beitrag von: Jose Luis am 23. Dez 2015, 03:58
Have you considered putting the goats war wagon with the double repeating crossbow and the arrow shredder ballista?
This also inducted me to propose you a thing: could every dwarven kingdom have different war machines?
And the dwarven horn could be replaced by any dwarven shout from the movie: Tanar Durin Nur!!! or Azagh Bekar!!!
Titel: Re: Elements from the Movie to Incorporate
Beitrag von: LordDainIronfoot am 23. Dez 2015, 07:23
Hello there mate!

For the War Chariot and the Iron Ballista there are whole Big Threads here which you can check out if you want,they are here from quite some time! :-)

About the Dwarven Horn the Current one is the Horn of Erebor from BotFA which Bombur blows and it is a product of hard work and effort of a big Dwarven Fan CragLord,me and Especially the Edain Team and in my eyes it fits perfectly for the purpose! :-) The quotes you suggested would be better used as an Ability Sounds for some Heroes! :-)

 Hope you understood me properly,no offense towards you,but you should check old Threads before creating new ones!

Greetings from the Lord of the Iron Hills!
Titel: Re: Elements from the Movie to Incorporate
Beitrag von: The_Necromancer0 am 23. Dez 2015, 07:31
refer to this post which had a brilliant discussion on battlewagons that ended on a great proposal:
http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32074.0.html
Titel: Re: Elements from the Movie to Incorporate
Beitrag von: Jose Luis am 23. Dez 2015, 16:31
Ha ha, that post is awesome, i complataly agree with you.
Titel: Re: Elements from the Movie to Incorporate
Beitrag von: Walküre am 23. Dez 2015, 17:51
Sorry, but today I've been journeying a bit, and I didn't make it in time to see this thread.

Yes, there already is a very wide and dense thread to wander through, among very valuable and detailed proposals, along with a poll  :)

I thus merge this thread with that one.

MERGED with: http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32074.msg417329.html#msg417329
Titel: Re: Battlewagons Improvements
Beitrag von: Walküre am 5. Apr 2018, 13:45
Given the recent overhaul of battle wagons in the upcoming patch, I don't think that this thread needs to remain open any longer. I also seize the chance to congratulate the authors of the proposal and to recall them as it is due: two former great members of Modding Union who strived a lot to bring about significant changes for the Dwarves. Among their best concepts, Hobbit-fashioned models for each realm, the Grey Mountains and battle wagons are the ones which have certainly revolutionised much in the game. Two very fond friends of mine too. Thank you from the depth of my heart, Dáin and Crag ;)

Nevertheless, to all Dwarves-enthusiasts: even though the Dwarven Renaissance has already reached its apex, do not think that there won't possibly be other additional surprises in the future. The Edain Team has still other aces to play...

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