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[en] The Prancing Pony => The Lord of the Rings => Thema gestartet von: TiberiusOgden am 25. Apr 2015, 15:49

Titel: Who is the third most powerful being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 25. Apr 2015, 15:49
Very popular topic on the LOTR forums. ;)

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-q3_TZhf2BCE/UYMYuS8NpXI/AAAAAAAAANg/Z3kSutUmEW8/s1600/whiteCouncil3.png)

We must take into account many aspects like strength (physical, magical or strength of mind), age (experiences), origin (Maiar, human) and we must look at Tolkien quotes about characters and we can compare them with movie makers visions.
Time is also crucial - better question is Who is the most powerful being during the time of Hobbit and Lord of the Rings stories? :)
Of course, there can be problem even with interpretation of word "powerful" or "being" in the Tolkien's world.

Either way,
I am looking forward to discussion. :D

P.S. Once we have a list of names, so I'll start a poll and we will vote.  8-)

Edit: Story continues. :P
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: CynasFan am 25. Apr 2015, 16:06
Ok, I try.
If you follow J.R.R. Tolkien Sauron was the most powerful and very oldest Person in Middleearth in Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. Galadriel and Saruman together only were strong enough to fight against the Necromanth.

But if you ignore Sauron it´s Galadriel, Daughter of a Maiar and fighter against Sauron since the Second.

Greetings, CynasFan (from Germany)
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 25. Apr 2015, 16:26
Perfect,

we already have some names for the poll: Necromancer, Galadriel, Saruman, Gandalf, Smaug, Balrog, Glorfindel, Elrond. :)
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Azaril am 25. Apr 2015, 16:34
Since when is Galadriel the daughter of a maia, CynasFan? Her father and her mother were both elves.

But I agree that she is one of the most powerful beings at the time of Hobbit and LotR. Sauron is very powerful too, but you have to differentiate between the "Ring-Sauron", the Necromancer, and the Sauron in Barad-dûr. The former is the strongest of them, of course.

Other powerful beings in LotR are Olorin (Gandalf), Elrond, Curumo (Saruman), Glorfindel, Smaug, Durin's Bane, ...
There are many who possess plenty of power, some of them have physical strength (e.g. Smaug, Balrog), some have magical strength (e.g. the Istari and Sauron), and some have strength of mind (most of them).

So I think it is very difficult to determine one person that is the best in all aspects of power.

Edit: I forgot the Nazgûl. They are very powerful, too.
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: CynasFan am 25. Apr 2015, 16:48
I was false.
I don`t know why I posted it than [uglybunti]

For me, the most powerful was Sam with his frying pan (Edain Mod 3.8)

Greetings, CynasFan
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 25. Apr 2015, 16:51
Since when is Galadriel the daughter of a maia, CynasFan? Her father and her mother were both elves.
Good point. Even her grandparents were not Maiar.
But we can say that during her life she had many relationships to Maiar. :)
Primarily Melian, then Olorin.

Edit: I forgot the Nazgûl. They are very powerful, too.
Do you mean ringwraiths in general or simply their leader Witch king?
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Thartom am 25. Apr 2015, 17:43
But the Nazgul are only the slaves of Sauron, so i think at least with his Corruption-skills the maiar could win against them.
I think the most powerful being is Sauron. He´s a maiar, one of the creators of middle-earth (or did the valar all the work alone?), and how could someone create something more powerful than himself?
Saruman, Gandalf or Durin´s Bane wouldnt be a problem for him since he´s the most powerful of the maiar.
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 25. Apr 2015, 17:52
Well,
I say that Galadriel.
Sauron can not stand without the One ring against the inner strength of Galadriel. In addition, she is able to read his mind and he is not.
Of course, if Sauron gets the One ring, so Lorien and Galadriel will fall. Sauron with the ring is the most powerful creature in the Middle-earth.  8-)
And Galadriel more powerful than Istari? In the Middle Earth definitely. :)
Istari have limitations. Purpose of their mission is strictly given - only to support, not to participate directly. But Galadriel has no restrictions. The greatest demonstration of power throughout the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings is when were threw down walls in Dol Guldur. And surely everyone knows who did it.  :P

I am not talking about Tom Bombadil because with him we are in the completely different dimension.  :o
He is something or someone really unique. My interpretation is that he is the most powerful being but only in his teritory, inside the borders.
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Thartom am 25. Apr 2015, 22:34
But you say Sauron himself isnt the best, only with the ring he becomes the strongest. But the Ring is a piece of Sauron, so i would say, Sauron is the most powerful being, only without his ring of power he is weaker (and even then he´s one of the strongest).

Galadriel is strong too, yes, but in my opinion the movie-Galadriel isn´t the "true" middle-earth, it´s just PJs interpretation. In fact the whole White Council has maybe driven Sauron out of Dol Guldur, if it wasn´t part of his plan to "flee". And remember, Dol Guldur was an old ruin, not such a big fortress as Minas Morgul.
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 2. Mai 2015, 22:09
I've just added poll. :)
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Shagrat am 3. Mai 2015, 18:34
Considering the question is "Who is the most powerful being during the time of Hobbit and Lord of the Rings stories? " shouldn't it be "The Necromancer/Sauron" considering during the LotR he wasn't called Necromancer anymore?

btw guess for whom i voted^^
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 3. Mai 2015, 18:40
Of course. Fixed ;)
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Thartom am 3. Mai 2015, 22:04
Of course (see my posts above) i voted for one of the only two really free maiar in middle-earth. But give Sauron a bit time for rising an army and the balrog is just a bad memory.

Zitat
btw guess for whom i voted^^

I know- for Shagrat!
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Shagrat am 3. Mai 2015, 22:12
Zitat
btw guess for whom i voted^^

I know- for Shagrat!
'course he was the secret mastermind behind Sauron AND Morgoth... and of course Saruman... he also made the plans for the free people and will rule all of Middle-Earth in the 5th Age!
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Walküre am 4. Mai 2015, 00:07
Such a popular, thrilling and yet unresolved question and topic :)

But I won't contain myself, trying to use though at the same time not too much words  8-)

I think that we could quite surely say that Galadriel is the most powerful being in Middle Earth in the Third Age; although there are various interpretations about the powers of the Lady of Light and her status in Middle Earth, there are also solid facts :)

1. In the Third Age the World (Middle Earth) was grey, dark and disenchanted, a place in which the Elves were diminishing and leaving, almost becoming characters of the legends of Men.
Galadriel is a more-than-8000-year-old royal elf (or 20000-year-old if we use the other version of the computation of the Years of the Trees/Years of the Valar), older than the Sun and the Moon, blessed by the holy and legendary Light of the Two Trees, accounted as the fairest and very powerful among the Noldor even in Aman, scholar of the Valar in Valinor and of the Maia Melian in Beleriand, the only one of the Exiled that survived the rebellion and the War of the Jewels, and keeper of Nenya.

She was obviously an unique character and an exception even among the mightiest Elves of Middle Earth in the Third Age, the only remnant left of the Bliss of Valinor and of the Splendour of the Elder Days.

2. For the reasons stated above, she is the mightiest and fairest elf of the Third Age (exact words of Tolkien) and the 'de facto' queen of the Elves in this Age.
She is basically invincible in her own realm, Lothlórien, and Sauron could have never defeated her without the One Ring; she was able to see through his mind and will, while he couldn't.

3. She established herself the White Council and had the power to indicate its chief, even though Gandalf refused her offer.

4. The Istari were sent to Middle Earth with heavy restrictions placed upon them by the Valar; they were bound to take the bodies of old men and experience all the pains and sorrows of their physical bodies, they were ordered to guide the Free People instead of challenging Sauron directly, they lost the majority of their powers and had their infinite and immense memories as Angels in Valinor concealed in their own mind, weakening them even more (the Wizards journeyed Middle Earth, at their arrival, to recollect part of their lost and past knowledge).

The Istari can not be regarded as the Maiar that once were.

5. Sauron did not have the One Ring at that time and had lost his physical body, because he was severely defeated twice in the past and consequently lost the majority of his powers; while Galadriel increased her powers in time, the exact opposite thing.

Galadriel, though, being her a diminishing blessed elf in a dark World, did not have the role, the power or the authority to stop the War of the Ring and destroy completely Sauron, because this was naturally the task of Men and Frodo; she was ineluctably bound to leave Middle Earth to preserve her Grace.

So, if 'Power' doesn't only mean fighting or gathering armies, but has a deeper and wider meaning (and this is, I think, what Tolkien wanted to tell us), we can openly say that Galadriel was the most powerful being in Middle Earth at that time  :P
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: DropItLikeItsDogg am 4. Mai 2015, 06:21
I think Saruman. He is lord of Isengard and head of the White Council, we all know Saruman the White were the most wisest wizard, and Saruman of many colours defeated Gandalf easily, he created maybe the best type of orcs and catapults IN A LITTLE WHILE, Saruman is more creative than Sauron. Saruman wasn't puppet of Sauron like in films, he wanted ring for himself because he were so explorer.
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 4. Mai 2015, 19:46
C'mon guys, Smaug rulz! :D
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 4. Mai 2015, 20:14
How is this even a question? Without his ring Sauron definitely isn't the most powerful being. Galadrial is probably the most powerful magic being, Followed by the Witch-King. But if we are talking outright IWillF**kYouUpidness then Smaug takes the cake, A mature winged dragon would have wiped the floor with ARMIES led by the other beings on this list, never-mind 1v1. Earendil had to save the day the last time winged dragons were in a major battle, and that was in the first age when Elves and Men were still essentially at the height of their power. Smaug died because of a prophesy, not because of weakness.
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: hoho96 am 5. Mai 2015, 10:46
Zitat
if we are talking outright IWillF**kYouUpidness then Smaug takes the cake
This just made my day  [uglybunti]

I think without doubt that Sauron is obviously the most powerful and most feared being since the Second Age with or withOUT his ring (well, the ring is still Sauron himself after all).
The argument of Galadriel holding Lothlórien against everything but Sauron WITH his ring is invalid.
it's true that Sauron was the only force that can overcome Galadriel, but he's able to do it even without his ring.
Zitat
the power that dwelt there was too great for any to overcome,
unless Sauron had come there himself
If he needed the ring to do it, then it's not even a possibility anymore cause the ring is simply not in reach!
Another thing is in Dol Guldur at the time of The Hobbit it was the WHITE COUNCIL (not Galadriel alone) who drove Sauron out if you even call it "driven out".
Even more, sticking to the lore, the White Council didn't even had the chance to confront Sauron! Here's the quote from the appendix:
Zitat
Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur.

Bottom line is: Sauron IS the "IWillF**kYouUpidness" situation that anyone on S.A. to T.A. Middle-Earth would face  [ugly]
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Walküre am 5. Mai 2015, 20:24
The line of Tolkien about the Hidden Power that dwells in Lothlórien (Galadriel and Nenya) is quite absolute :P No one could have never overcome Galadriel in her own realm without the One Ring.
He tried during the War of the Ring, when the forces of Dol Guldur attacked Lothlórien three times but were repeatedly repulsed by the Magic of Galadriel (that protects and permeates her realm) and the power of Nenya, that preserves the integrity of Lothlórien.

Tolkien only wrote that the White Council attacked Dol Guldur and drove Sauron out of the fortress, it is not precisely written who led the final assault or directly confronted Sauron, or if this very confrontation really took place; we only know that the White Council was there, and so could have been Galadriel, as its most powerful and fundamental member (she established the White Council herself), and that she then could have clashed with a 'weak' and diminished Sauron.
Everything is left to everyone's interpretation, and PJ chose, rightly, to adapt the version in which Galadriel banishes Sauron  ;)
We could have had Saruman confronting Sauron or Elrond leading an army of Elves of Rivendell against Dol Guldur and forcing Sauron to flee; the Tolkien's words can often be perceived as obscure or enigmatic (especially in the Annals), but this is the beauty of Tolkien after all  :)

I explained everything in my previous comment :)

As you rightly wrote, hoho96, the One Ring is deeply tied to Sauron's existence and a very part of himself, having lost it and not having the possibility to use it are a real tragedy for him.
He was defeated at the end of the First Age and kneed to the might of Eönwë and asked for the forgiveness of the Valar; he lost his power, as a Maia, of shape shifting when he lost his body after the destruction of Númenor and lost completely the ability of appearing in a physical form when he was parted from the One Ring.
Sauron has been recollecting his powers and recovering himself during the entire Third Age, but still, when he openly manifests himself, he is at about less than 20-30% of his immense powers; without the One Ring he can't take a physical form and thus confront directly powerful beings like Galadriel or Saruman, he naturally relies on the strength of his powerful armies and strong and evil servants.

Galadriel is a holy being of Valinor, and the representation of the legendary light of the Two Trees through her hair, she can't be defeated by Sauron in her own  realm or in the surrounding woods  ;)
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: -Mandos- am 5. Mai 2015, 23:25
I wouldnt take the quote about Galadriel and her forest too serious... I guess any Maia at full power could overcome her magic defenses and breach Lorien. Imagine the Balrog walking into Lorien  [uglybunti]

Nonetheless I would say that Galadriel is definitly among the most powerful, only surpassed by Gandalf the White (who said that he would be able to defeat anyone but the Dark Lord himself or so?) and Sauron.
Even if Sauron lost a lot of his "magical" and physical powers he is still able to control huge armies, to intimidate Saruman and almost take control over middle-earth. For me this is also a kind of power, also an "outsourced" one :D
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: orkanelf am 5. Mai 2015, 23:40
wtf Tom Bombadil!!!
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: -Mandos- am 5. Mai 2015, 23:46
I am not talking about Tom Bombadil because with him we are in the completely different dimension.  :o
He is something or someone really unique. My interpretation is that he is the most powerful being but only in his teritory, inside the borders.
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Walküre am 6. Mai 2015, 01:40
I wouldnt take the quote about Galadriel and her forest too serious... I guess any Maia at full power could overcome her magic defenses and breach Lorien. Imagine the Balrog walking into Lorien  [uglybunti]

I think that it's quite obvious that Tolkien meant that no one could have never overcome her without the One Ring in the specific age that it is the Third Age, leaving thus apart any Vala, Maia or other foul and terrible creatures of the First Age :)
And I would leave apart even the Balrog, because he is a remnant of the Elder Days, a terrible Maia that hid himself after his defeat in the First Age, and he is not supposed to be active and present in the time of the War of the Ring; I think he is an exception, virtually and theorically out from the 'politics' and the balance of powers of the Third Age.
But you are obviously right, since the Balrog is the only Maia at full powers, he could have laid ruined Lothlórien :)

About the line, since the Golden Woods remained a holy and timeless sanctuary, untouched and untainted by any form of evil for more than 3000 years, while the woodland realm of Mirkwood was gradually marred by the gathering evil and got darker and more dangerous, I would totally take that line very seriously :P

Gandalf the White is obviously stronger and more similar to a Maia than his Grey counterpart, but he is still a Wizard, and thus he has heavy restrictions on his powers and memories; if you read my first comment on this thread, you will see that I explained it there better :)

And, by the way, the reborn Gandalf was sheltered and clothed in White by Galadriel herself; it was Galadriel, not an average Hilda Bianca :D

In my previous comments I clearly said that gathering armies and being a terrible and dark leader are obviously multiple meanings of 'Power'; but I am referring to the magical powers of Sauron (the 'modifications' that his essence causes in the World), powers that were mostly lost during the ages of the World.

If you want, I can answer you with the words of Haldir (Tolkien) in the Fellowship of the Ring book, since I recently read again this passage :)

The following words are a synthesis that I made of the words of Haldir :)

When he is accompanying the Fellowship to Caras Galadhon, he talks about the bliss and majesty of Lothlórien and compares this realm to Dol Guldur in the East (where the Darkness has returned, more powerful than ever) and to Mordor itself in the far East; Haldir says that the wills of Galadriel and Sauron clash together from afar (Lothlórien and Mordor) in a sort of 'telepathic' fight, in which the two try to see through each other's minds and plans, and Galadriel succeeds in it, while Sauron not.
In Haldir's words, she is also represented as the embodiment of Light, and Sauron the embodiment of Darkness, and Galadriel is the nemesis of Sauron in the World; Haldir also says that the 'secret' (Nenya) of the strength and bliss of Lothlórien has not yet been discovered.

Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: -Mandos- am 6. Mai 2015, 15:44
Haldir says that the wills of Galadriel and Sauron clash together from afar (Lothlórien and Mordor) in a sort of 'telepathic' fight, in which the two try to see through each other's minds and plans, and Galadriel succeeds in it, while Sauron not.

Well, you're right about that:)
But again we have to take into account that Sauron isn't fighting Galadriel only (he also has Saruman and Denethor with their Palantiri and is controlling his armies etc.), while Galadriel can focus fully on defending her realm.
And whats about Nenya? Do we just take it as part of Galadriel? Normally a magical artifact like this isnt fair to compare to characters, on the other hand she always has it...
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Crimson King am 6. Mai 2015, 18:20
Gandalf answers this questions almost directly in the Two Towers

Zitat von: -Gandalf
Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord

Sauron is the most powerful being during the War of the Ring, even without his ring. Gandalf comes second, the rest is speculation. As far as I know this is the clearest indication of "power levels" provided by Tolkien, regarding the Third Age.
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Walküre am 6. Mai 2015, 19:19
I wouldn't consider Saruman or Denethor real threats to Sauron, more as possible obstacles; and, remember, both these two great characters were eventually deceived by Sauron and kind of 'used' by him, and, at the end of the day, all they have done (believing to act freely) was in Sauron's advantage.

Because this is what Sauron is best at, deceiving people :)

Galadriel, instead, remained always loyal and always refused and repulsed Sauron in every way; and she doesn't need a Palantír for her 'telepathic' battles, she does it herself, because she is a force of nature  :P

Saruman and Denethor were subjugated by Sauron, while Galadriel wasn't, and she also could see through his mind.


And whats about Nenya? Do we just take it as part of Galadriel? Normally a magical artifact like this isnt fair to compare to characters, on the other hand she always has it...

I have always regarded Galadriel and Nenya as different matters; it's true that she has had it (openly used) for more than 3000 years and that a Ring of Power is deeply connected to its bearer, but Nenya is still a powerful Elven Artifact.
Galadriel probably uses it also to channel her powers, like the staff of the Wizards, but her powers and essence are not determined only by Nenya; her powers come from afar, from 'the Day before days' in Valinor (as Tolkien says), when the Sun, the Moon and Men didn't exist yet in the World  :)

Nenya preserves the integrity of the Golden Woods, hides them from the enemies and almost totally slows the action of Time in this realm; then, as a Ring of Power, exponentially enhances the natural powers and the magical influence on the World of its bearer.
But it's the specific extremely ancient Magic of Galadriel that fends off the evil and grants her great natural powers (she throws down the walls of Dol Guldur after the defeat of Sauron).

(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/members/4/3141/3140794/thumb_620x2000/Galadriel_20.gif)
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 12. Mai 2015, 12:03
It seems that Sauron (although without the One ring) is the clear winner, but real duel is between Gandalf and Galadriel, concerning second place. 8-| :)
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Mai 2015, 15:13
Galadriel is the moral winner :P
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Adamin am 12. Mai 2015, 17:39
Well, I'd say that there is an easy logical way to answer the question.

Let's assume that the most powerful being in Middle-earth was of good nature. In that case the main force of evil (Sauron) should succumb to it. That would mean that there should have been no need for the Quest to destroy the Ring, since the most powerful being could beat Sauron in a direct confrontation.
But that didn't happen in the books, so i think we can assume that this isn't the case.

So let's assume that the most powerful being in Middle-earth was of evil nature. In that case there are two possibilities: Either it is the main Antagonist Sauron, or a rival to him. If a rival to Sauron was in fact more powerful, then the forces of good would have most likely prioritized the fight against him or the rival would have openly attacked Sauron. Both again did not happen in the books.

That's why I'd say it's safe to assume that Sauron must have been the most powerful entity in Middle-earth during the Third Age. Otherwise, why bother with the secret mission to destroy him without the use of open force/power?

Because there were beings in the elder days that could challenge Sauron openly, and we do have examples for confrontations like this: The Battle of the Last Alliance ended (not at all like in the movies) with a fight between Sauron and an all-star team of Middle-earths mightiest heroes: Gil-Galad & Elendil, probably with the help of Isildur, Elrond and Círdan. The first two even died, but all together still managed to defeat Sauron.

But those days passed away and there are no such powers (for good) left in Middle-earth in the Third Age. I think this is mentioned, or at least implied at the Council of Elrond, which again is why they decide to destroy the Ring in secrecy.



Concerning Galadriel:
Well yes she definetly is very powerful, but again she never went out on her own to directly confront Sauron.

She didn't had any restrictions on her actions in Middle-earth like the Istari. In fact she left during the Exile of the Noldor, which basically banished her from Valinor.
It is said that Fëanors words concerning Middle-earth kindled a desire in her heart, as she was eager to see those wide unguarded lands and rule a realm of her own. http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Galadriel
So Galadriel went to Middle-earth with the desire to rule, and even renouncing the Undying Lands to do so.

I think its not farfetched to assume that Galadriel would have destroyed Sauron if she could do so without the One Ring, because she tells us that this is exactly what she would do with the One Ring. The Speech that she gives to Frodo (which was a bit overblown in the movies) reflects that Galadriel spent a lot of time thinking about what she would do with the One Ring, and describes how she would rule everyone as a unbearably adored queen. There is a lust for power in Galadriel (although in the end she rejects it/the Ring).

So yeah, Galadriel is actually kinda sketchy regarding her motives and her actions in the books (another example: Why is she testing the hearts of the fellowship members in Lórien, prodding into their darkest fears without consent?)
Therefor I think that she actually couldn't be stronger than Sauron, or else she would have challenged him.
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Crimson King am 12. Mai 2015, 22:11
Replying to Adamin, well, while I do agree that Sauron is the most powerful being in Middle-Earth in the TA, at least during the War of the Ring, the argument is flawed. If I understood your point correctly, you argue that if Sauron was not the single most powerful being AND evil then the forces of good needn't be so sneaky sneaky because the corolary would be that there was something more powerful on their side, given that there isn't an antihero or rival to Sauron in any way. But as I took it, the reason why there was such a pressing need to obliterate Sauron through a stealth mission was due to the fact that he was the mastermind behind the formation of incredibly powerful and destructive armies, which on their own would prove too much for "Good" to handle if unchecked (and they would go unchecked if we are talking about gathering an army with a slight chance of assaulting Barad-ur). "One does not simply walk into Mordor" ;)

However, had they had a headstart of, say, 3-5 years to prepare for such an open force display, before Sauron assembled any more troops and allies as he did by the end of the TA, then the use of force might have been effective. Still, even then, I believe the Council of Elrond would have advised for a stealthy way of destroying the ring, if possible, in order to avoid as many casualties as possible.

Again, I stick by what Gandalf said in the books, and he stated Sauron is the only thing more dangerous than himself, that Gimli could ever meet. (well, I guess he either screwed that up by failing to see that Gimli would set sail for the Undying Lands thus probably seeing some Vala or Maia, or he is telling us he perished before he reached them, which is also interesting XD)
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Walküre am 12. Mai 2015, 23:27
Well, I'd say that there is an easy logical way to answer the question.

It would be a lot easier if we could resolve all the 'mysteries' of Tolkien's lore with logical statements, but I don't think it would be really possible, because all Tolkien's universe is a 'Mystery' (even due to its unfinished and 'tale-told' nature), and that's why it's wonderful :)

And that's why we can make a lot of speculations, and, of course, everyone is entitled to its own opinion :)

The word 'Power' has various meanings in Tolkien's works, not necessarily connected to destruction or domination (even if it often refers to that aspect), but also to Beauty, Light and, most importantly, Wisdom; and I think this is exactly one of the main messages that Tolkien 'wants' to give us.
Victory and help often come, infact, from the  apparently 'weakest', most unexpected and humblest ones, as Gandalf tells the White Council during the Watchful Peace; and Victory came, in fact, by Frodo, and it was specifically his destiny and task, when the mightiest ones failed.

Probably we can consider Galadriel and Sauron (without the One Ring) as two 'equal' rivals in Middle Earth, like Haldir says, Light and Darkness that clash together, even though they can't win each other; they are invincible in their own realms (Galadriel in the Golden Woods and Sauron in Mordor), but they don't have the power to give the 'final assault', for deep, and very long to write XD, reasons concerning the nature of their own existence and the nature of Arda.
This is how I personally view things :)

Remember that, as I wrote in my previous comments, the immense powers of Galadriel gradually increased in time, during her more-than-7000-year-old permanence in Middle Earth, and for the entire Third Age (before the War of the Ring and the final manifestation of Sauron in Mordor and the gathering of all his evil forces) she was at her highest level ever 8-)
Sauron took more than 3000 years to recollect a small part of his powers.

If we use 'your' initial reasoning, Sauron (without the One Ring) could have immediately defeated everyone without great difficulties, while we know for sure that he has always understood the real threat of Men and Galadriel (as Tolkien states) could have never been overcome in her own realm without the One Ring.

You see, pure logic doesn't clearly belong to Tolkien's lore :)
 
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Adamin am 13. Mai 2015, 10:24
If I understood your point correctly, you argue that if Sauron was not the single most powerful being AND evil then the forces of good needn't be so sneaky sneaky because the corolary would be that there was something more powerful on their side, given that there isn't an antihero or rival to Sauron in any way.

Almost. The sneaky sneaky part isn't the main part of my argument though. It's more the whole decision of not fighting Sauron by force, which leads to the assumption that there is no single force that could beat him.

Saurons armies are of course a decisive factor in this thought, and make the secrecy necessary.
But if you take the One Ring in account, there are many more possibilities. Like I said: Galadriel was pretty sure that she could have defeated Sauron (and replace him) if she took the Ring. Gandalf and Elrond might have been similarly skilled enough to do so.
Even Boromir was pretty confident that Gondor could beat Mordor on the battlefield, if they get more support from their allies. The Ring might help him with the persuasion. Or better: Let Aragorn finally return as the King of all Men! He is strong of will (in the books, though less so than Elendil) so he probably could have used the Ring too and united Middle-earth against Sauron.

Naturally most of those people talk under the influence of the Ring, so we can't be completely sure if it's accurate or wishful thinking. But I personally think that it's not too far of what would have happened (again talking highly speculative here).

And that's actually the beauty of the decision of the Council. They had fought Sauron with force before. They are almost considering doing it again, because it's the obvious thing to do. Heck, that's exactly what Saruman decides to do. Some say they even could use the weapon of the enemy against him, thus changing it to a power of light.
But in the end the wise ones realize that this battle cannot be won by high and powerful individuals, and that all good intention can get corrupted over time.
In the end, it is the friendship of four little hobbits that break the cycle.



You see, pure logic doesn't clearly belong to Tolkien's lore :)

Considering that Tolkien poured a lot of time and effort into his worldcreating and seeing all the (known) character intentions and actions, I wouldn't dismiss a logical approach to the Lord of the Rings.
Of course there are a lot of hints at bigger, untold stories (what are these Púkel-men actually about anyway?) but if we analyze the stories we know of thoroughly, nearly all of it makes self contained sense.

But sure, most of these thoughts are speculations, based on the texts but not directly out of Tolkiens mind. I personally really like to see the connections behind things, and don't think that it gets "demystified" because of this. On the contrary the mythology gets richer because of the logical cohesion beneath it.


Galadriel cannot be attacked or challenged in Lothlórien (while she has Nenya), that's true. But looking at the map of Middle-earth is that really that much? Lórien is one of the tiniest marked forests, while Mordor, already multiple times bigger, is ever expanding into Ithilien, Osgilliath, even Dol Guldur, and no doubt having connections to Moria and Gundabad.
Sauron maybe cannot defeat Galadriel in her realm, but he surely is working on defeating everything around her, eventually just suffocating her "Light".

Regarding Haldir I'd say his statements has to be viewed critically (though I haven't reread the specific lines). He is a Galadhrim after all, so his opinion is not neutral. Of course he has to believe in his leaders, so of course he says they are the strongest.

Can you give some specific examples for Galadriels power actually increasing (except for the stuff she did with Nenya)? I haven't thought about this before, and it sounds a bit counterintuitive at first. Weren't the elves supposed to dwindle in the Third Age, getting weaker and leaving Middle-earth? The last big bastions of elvendom (Rivendell and Caras Galadhon) were protected by the powers of their elven Rings Vilya and Nenya, but they could only stop or slow down the decline, not reverse it.
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: hoho96 am 13. Mai 2015, 17:50
Waw, I think Adamin nailed it   xD
All hail the Dark Lord winner of "Strongest in Middle-Earth: The 2015 edition"!!  [uglybunti]
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Adamin am 13. Mai 2015, 18:06
I'm sorry, I hope I haven't suffocated anyone myself with this wall of text.  [ugly]
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Walküre am 13. Mai 2015, 21:51
Considering that Tolkien poured a lot of time and effort into his worldcreating and seeing all the (known) character intentions and actions, I wouldn't dismiss a logical approach to the Lord of the Rings.


When I wrote that logic doesn't belong to Tolkien's works, I was referring to the best and 'purest' meaning of the matter  :)
We shouldn't approach the texts, both the 'completed' ones and the unfinished ones (with many contradictions and multiple versions of the history and the very existence of some characters), as if we were reading a math essay, characterised by pure logic and always-true statements.
There is obviously a general logic behind all the mythology and lore, fictionally represented by the Plan of Ilúvatar, from the arrival of the Ainur in the Universe, to the very End, a plan that even the Valar don't totally know and understand; and it's also obvious that Middle Earth in the Third Age, the 'setting' of LOTR, is deeply tied to the Past, the events that occured from the Great Journey of the Eldar to Aman to the beginning of the War of the Ring, and had their natural consequences on the World.
But one of the most 'magical', wonderful and impressive elements of Tolkien's Literature is also this apparent 'suspension of logic' that permeates the events of Arda and determines all the small, unexpected and apparently surprising events (Bilbo and the One Ring, the task of Frodo, the death of the Witch-king by the hand of a woman,...), that, as Galadriel says, can change the course of the Future; there is always a general logic behind them (the Hobbits' nature, the prophecy of Glorfindel,...), but it is kind of hidden, and not very similar to the greatest one of the plot line and whole mythology.
Tolkien, as a professor, also wrote some essays on fairytales (we are talking about myths and ancient tales of course), of which Surprise, Mystery and Obscurity are fundamental parts, where often small events and 'humble' characters decide the fate of the manichean battle of Good and Evil that violently takes place, giving the whole 'picture' (plot line) multiple, multiform, beautiful and different colours.

Lothlórien, as a realm, is much more important than you think in the 'geopolitics' of Middle Earth  ;)
it is probably the only protected, safe and blessed place left beyond the Misty Mountains, guarding the passing of the Anduin and, thus, a possible entry for Mordor to Rohan or Eriador.
Galadriel has not the right and the power to challenge directly Sauron, or gather an army in front of the Black Gate, because her might is connected to Endurance, Protection and counseling the Free People in the fight against Evil, since the great burden of battle and 'military' actions would have mostly been borne by Men; thing that she clearly does when she helps the Fellowship, gives it her advice, refuses the One Ring for the sake of the World and shelters the reborn Gandalf.
Galadriel was always able to see through Sauron's mind and unveil his evil plans for Men, Dwarves and Elves, while her mind was always closed for him.

I strongly believe that the words of Haldir (Tolkien) are very accurate, meaningful and significant, not only for the way they are written, but also for his (of Haldir) wisdom and for his understanding of the World in the Third Age.
Also, Galadriel tells Frodo almost the same thing, talking about her 'telepathic' clashes with Sauron (that she always wins  :P) and her role in Middle Earth (Light against Darkness, Lothlórien against Dol Guldur and Mordor).


Can you give some specific examples for Galadriels power actually increasing (except for the stuff she did with Nenya)? I haven't thought about this before, and it sounds a bit counterintuitive at first. Weren't the elves supposed to dwindle in the Third Age, getting weaker and leaving Middle-earth? The last big bastions of elvendom (Rivendell and Caras Galadhon) were protected by the powers of their elven Rings Vilya and Nenya, but they could only stop or slow down the decline, not reverse it.

The destiny of corruption of Arda is ineluctable, and, yes, the Elves are doomed to diminish and get weaker and more tired of Middle Earth, and to sail to Aman, if they want to preserve their Grace; but the answer is simple, Galadriel is not a 'common' Elf  8-)

Galadriel was born in Valinor during the Years of the Trees and was blessed by the holy Light of the Two Trees (that was forever captured in her hair, giving Fëanor the inspiration for the creation of the legendary Silmarils, the fundamental elements of the First Age and the main reason of the tragic and epic War of the Jewels), she was considered already in Aman as the fairest and mightiest elf-maiden of the Noldor, and one of the mightiest Elf in general; she had been dwelling with the Maiar and the Valar and personally taught by them for more than 1000 years, when she chose to leave Valinor for her legitimate desires of ruling a realm on her own.
She was a scholar of the Maia Melian in Beleriand for almost 500 years, improving her already existing 'telepathic' and mind revealing capabilities; at the end of the First Age she was the only one of the mighty and mythical 'Royal Family' of the Noldor that survived the war and the destruction of Beleriand.
In the Second Age, she decides to remain in Middle Earth to rule some of the remaining Noldor and Sindar, with the permission of Gil-galad, and rejects Annatar (Sauron in disguise), unveiling his ambiguous intentions; but, most importantly, she was entrusted Nenya by Celebrimbor and tied her destiny in Middle Earth to her ring.
After the defeat of Sauron by Isildur, Galadriel was finally able to openly use Nenya (that had definitely begun an essential part of her, the 'item' with which she, since then, would have channeled also her other powers) to establish a timeless and enchanted realm, that endured for more than 3000 years, slowing and almost nullifying the action of Time in Lothlórien for 3 millennia.
In the Third Age she is the only being of Valinor and the remnant of its splendour left in the World, a bright and ethereal Elf that had become matter of the legends of Men and also 'grey' and young Elves of that time; the most similar being to a Maia and the 'de facto' queen of the Elves.
A holy light is more visible and brighter in a dark and disenchanted place, which was Middle Earth at that time.

The point is that she increased her powers in time, during her more-than-7000-year-old permanence in Middle Earth, and her might remained untouched, untainted and never suffered any loss; the opposite thing about Sauron, who was repeatedly defeated in the Past and lost twice his body, with tragic consequences for his essence and powers as a Maia.

Yes, I think that Galadriel is the most powerful being in the Third Age for her unaltered essence and powers, obviously not necessarily related to military strength or the task of saving the World  :)


Waw, I think Adamin nailed it   xD
All hail the Dark Lord winner of "Strongest in Middle-Earth: The 2015 edition"!!  [uglybunti]

Darkness will never prevail  :P



Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 14. Mai 2015, 19:34
Smaug for most powerful being 2015! I'm not sure Sauron could 1v1 Smaug even with the ring, seeing as Isildur was able to cut him with a sword, I can't see Sauron able to deal with dragon fire outright. His only chance would be to dominate Smaugs will, and even that would be suspect as dragons are well known to have perhaps the most powerful wills of all, Even Glaurung didn't consider himself a lackey of Morgoth, more as a free agent who could choose what his involvement was. Even taking into account the diminishement of dragons (Gandalf surmised that Smaugs fire couldn't destroy the ring) I think Smaug could damage Sauron to the point of no longer being attached to the ring, and after that it's GG.
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 14. Mai 2015, 19:47
Good point,
by the way ... rings of Power (except one) can be destroyed by dragon fire.
It means that only weapon - how to pierce protection of Lorien (caused by Galadriel) - is therefore dragon fire. 8-)
It was only luck that Gandalf wan't involved in the situation around mountain or Lake town, otherwise ring of fire could be destroyed as well. 8-|
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Walküre am 15. Mai 2015, 17:54
Smaug for most powerful being 2015!

It would be probably true, if only Smaug was really part of the 'geopolitics' of Middle earth in the Third Age; he suddenly appears from the shadow when he attacks Erebor and takes its control, then he is awakened by the Dwarves and dies by the hand of a man.
Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf, however, have been constantly guarding Middle Earth for more than a millennium, when the War of the Ring starts, being them fundamental characters in the balance of powers in Middle Earth.

The Winged Dragons (Smaug is a remnant of them in the Third Age) are indeed terrible though, they managed to initially fend off the Host of the Valar in the War of Wrath.
Titel: Who is the second most powerful being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 2. Jun 2015, 16:32
I've started second round, second poll. ;)

According to first poll we know, that The Dark Lord (althought without the One ring) is the most powerful being, with a considerable distance. 8-) The second place belongs to Lady of Light for now.
But the new poll and mainly discussion might bring the new point of view. :P

Results of the first round:
Titel: Re: Who is the second most powerful being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Adamin am 8. Jun 2015, 11:02
Sorry Walküre, I'm going with Gandalf the White for the second one.  xD

Zitat
[Gimli: ...]"I thought Fangorn was dangerous."
"Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord. And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Gloin; for you are dangerous yourself, in your own fashion."
- The Two Towers: The White Rider -
Titel: Re: Who is the second most powerful being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: ThorinsNemesis am 8. Jun 2015, 14:06
Except me and some other few people, it seems almost no one supports Smaug in think poll  :(
Titel: Re: Who is the second most powerful being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: (Palland)Raschi am 8. Jun 2015, 14:21
Zitat
Except me and some other few people, it seems almost no one supports Smaug in think poll  :(

Well I suppose that Durin's bane is able to kill that dragon without serious problems. How should a dragon kill something that is even older than him and consists of shadows and flames. Personally I see the mightiest of Melkor's soldiers as the most powerful creature in middlearth during the war of the ring and the Hobbit took place.
Sauron would have been my first choice, but without his full power I am not sure he could match with a Balrog. Even Melkor himself needed the support of his his Balrogs against Ungolianth.
Titel: Re: Who is the second most powerful being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Adamin am 8. Jun 2015, 14:32
How should a dragon kill something that is even older than him and consists of shadows and flames.

Well, grabbing it and hurling it down a mountain worked a couple of times. xD
Since Smaug could definetly fly and had supposedly some resistance against fire, I think that shouldn't be a problem for him.
Titel: Re: Who is the second most powerful being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: (Palland)Raschi am 8. Jun 2015, 14:43
In fact I really doubt you can grap or even transport a great smoking fireball that easy. Even if Smaug could do that, do not forget about the fire whip and his power as a magic creature. If you irgnore that fact you always could argue, that Smaug  is just able to grab any creature like Sauron or Melkor and kill it by throwing it down the mountain.
Titel: Re: Who is the second most powerful being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Adrigabbro am 8. Jun 2015, 15:48
That's precisely why Smaug is the number 1 choice mate. :)
Titel: Re: Who is the second most powerful being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Adamin am 8. Jun 2015, 16:23
I'm not sure if it's stated somewhere in detail, but I was assuming so far that a Balrog does in fact has a physical body and isn't just consisting of fire and smoke. So grabbing and transporting shouldn't be the problem.

And I'm just arguing that because we have three directly quotable Balrog deaths, two of which ended by hurling it against the side of a mountain. So it seems like a pretty effective technique. ;)
I'm not saying that it'll be easy for Smaug or that the Balrog won't try to stop him somehow (physically or magically). But the flying foe does seem to have the advantage here imho.

Sauron or Melkor on the other hand would most likely not be killed by a fall I assume, just mildly inconvenienced. Melkor would probably crush the mountain.
Titel: Re: Who is the second most powerful being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Walküre am 8. Jun 2015, 16:24
Sorry Walküre, I'm going with Gandalf the White for the second one.  xD

Zitat
[Gimli: ...]"I thought Fangorn was dangerous."
"Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord. And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Gloin; for you are dangerous yourself, in your own fashion."
- The Two Towers: The White Rider -

I assume you will never be part of the #TeamGaladriel  :)
I wouldn't say that we have cookies, but surely some delicious Lembas (as you may know, an original recipe kept preserved by Melian herself, and passed to Galadriel)  :P

AND, if we wanted to do some nitpicking, Gandalf says that he is more terrible than anything Gimli will ever meet; BUT, will Gimli ever witness the true power of Galadriel, or, has he ever seen all the deeds of Galadriel in the Years of the Trees or in the Elder Days?
NO  :)
SO, the match is always open  ;)

Galadriel, defending Middle Earth since the year 1 of First Age (more than 7000 years) after her exile from Aman (forget the 16th century armour)  8-)
Titel: Re: Who is the second most powerful being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Adamin am 8. Jun 2015, 16:28
No worries, I'd say Galadriel's a strong runner up for the third place.   ;)
Although I really haven't thought about Smaug until now... :D

At the point in the story that I quoted, Gimli has already met Galadriel. Also she has given Gandalf messages for the three hunters, so Gandalf knows that they know each other.
Titel: Re: Who is the second most powerful being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Walküre am 8. Jun 2015, 16:42
I know, he had already met Galadriel, but, which of the many?
Normal White, Sublime or Seaweed?  :P




And, maybe another one, I would say  :)
Noldorin Princess/just-arrived-in-Beleriand-with-her-brothers/Helcaraxë-survivor/longing-for-realms-and-revenge-against-Morgoth  8-)

Titel: Re: Who is the second most powerful being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: TiberiusOgden am 14. Jul 2015, 13:41
Quite nice analysis. ;)


By the way, we can say that according to poll and our opinions, the most powerful being in the Middle-Earth is Dark Lord Sauron.
Concerning second place - (according the first and second poll) - I have no problem give that place to Galadriel and Gandalf the White together, as beings equal in power.
Third, four or fifth place is irrelevant, because both polls were primarily about three persons mentioned above.
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 22. Jul 2015, 22:44
Well, I'd say that there is an easy logical way to answer the question.

It would be a lot easier if we could resolve all the 'mysteries' of Tolkien's lore with logical statements, but I don't think it would be really possible, because all Tolkien's universe is a 'Mystery' (even due to its unfinished and 'tale-told' nature), and that's why it's wonderful :)

And that's why we can make a lot of speculations, and, of course, everyone is entitled to its own opinion :)

The word 'Power' has various meanings in Tolkien's works, not necessarily connected to destruction or domination (even if it often refers to that aspect), but also to Beauty, Light and, most importantly, Wisdom; and I think this is exactly one of the main messages that Tolkien 'wants' to give us.
Victory and help often come, infact, from the  apparently 'weakest', most unexpected and humblest ones, as Gandalf tells the White Council during the Watchful Peace; and Victory came, in fact, by Frodo, and it was specifically his destiny and task, when the mightiest ones failed.

Probably we can consider Galadriel and Sauron (without the One Ring) as two 'equal' rivals in Middle Earth, like Haldir says, Light and Darkness that clash together, even though they can't win each other; they are invincible in their own realms (Galadriel in the Golden Woods and Sauron in Mordor), but they don't have the power to give the 'final assault', for deep, and very long to write XD, reasons concerning the nature of their own existence and the nature of Arda.
This is how I personally view things :)

Remember that, as I wrote in my previous comments, the immense powers of Galadriel gradually increased in time, during her more-than-7000-year-old permanence in Middle Earth, and for the entire Third Age (before the War of the Ring and the final manifestation of Sauron in Mordor and the gathering of all his evil forces) she was at her highest level ever 8-)
Sauron took more than 3000 years to recollect a small part of his powers.

If we use 'your' initial reasoning, Sauron (without the One Ring) could have immediately defeated everyone without great difficulties, while we know for sure that he has always understood the real threat of Men and Galadriel (as Tolkien states) could have never been overcome in her own realm without the One Ring.

You see, pure logic doesn't clearly belong to Tolkien's lore :)

Can I just point out that in all of Tolkien's writings he says that the elves have diminished greatly from the levels of power they possessed when they left Valinor? While her magic may have stayed at the same level because of her ring, I doubt she would have been able to best Melian-era Galadriel, and I don't think she could have done anything against Smaug or Sauron in a straight up fight. Her will enables her to hold her own against a ringless Sauron, but I think it is pretty clear that Sauron with the ring would wipe the floor with her, and if Smaug chose to attack Lorien there would be little she could do to actually harm him.
As far as Gandalf vs Galadriel, he has seen her in her "mermaid" form, so I would think that he is talking about her in absolute power terms, not physical terms. From that we can deduce that he thinks he is on a different level from her as Gandalf the White.
I still contend that a ringless Sauron gets walked by Smaug, much like any other entity in middle earth would be.
Titel: Re: Who is the most powerfull being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Walküre am 23. Jul 2015, 10:58

Can I just point out that in all of Tolkien's writings he says that the elves have diminished greatly from the levels of power they possessed when they left Valinor? While her magic may have stayed at the same level because of her ring, I doubt she would have been able to best Melian-era Galadriel, and I don't think she could have done anything against Smaug or Sauron in a straight up fight. Her will enables her to hold her own against a ringless Sauron, but I think it is pretty clear that Sauron with the ring would wipe the floor with her, and if Smaug chose to attack Lorien there would be little she could do to actually harm him.
As far as Gandalf vs Galadriel, he has seen her in her "mermaid" form, so I would think that he is talking about her in absolute power terms, not physical terms. From that we can deduce that he thinks he is on a different level from her as Gandalf the White.
I still contend that a ringless Sauron gets walked by Smaug, much like any other entity in middle earth would be.

It's an obvious fact that she couldn't stand a chance against Sauron with the One Ring on his finger, and I never questioned it, since I kept on mentioning it.

The statement of Tolkien about the once formidable powers of the Eldar is very general, and doesn't specifically refer to Galadriel; the point is that, at the time of the War of the Ring, there are very few Eldar still remaining in the World, and the Woodland Elves are not capable at all of containing all the evil forces of Mordor, not to say winning them.
The statement also refers to the ineluctable fate of decay of all the Elves, both if the One Ring were regained by Sauron or destroyed.
But Galadriel is an exception (even though she still has to face the Elves' fate), the only trace left in Middle Earth of Valinor and its Spendour, and her memories of the Elder Days were really vivid in her mind; her powers increased along her 3-Age permanence in Middle Earth, and, at the time of the War of the Ring, were completely untainted (also due to her fundamental usage of Nenya), until she decided to resist the temptation of the Ultimate Power and accept her obligated return to Aman.

But another significant fact is that she was considered almost a goddess, in the late Third Age, not only for her incredible status and Might (greatly superior to the one of an ordinary Elf) or because she became a superhero in more than 7000 years, but also because the World had become so dark and disenchanted in the Third Age, that a being like Galadriel rightly appeared as over worldly, a legend even for the less wise Elves of Mirkwood.

I think that there is no difference between the magical aspect and the physical one of the powers of Galadriel, since they are 'integrated' and mixed with her extremely vast Knowledge, insightful Sight of Minds and Beauty; the definition of Power, in the Tolkien's Universe, is, especially for the Elves, very comprehensive and wholistic.


Titel: Re: Who is the second most powerful being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Sir_Stig am 23. Jul 2015, 17:46
Zitat
I think that there is no difference between the magical aspect and the physical one of the powers of Galadriel, since they are 'integrated' and mixed with her extremely vast Knowledge, insightful Sight of Minds and Beauty; the definition of Power, in the Tolkien's Universe, is, especially for the Elves, very comprehensive and wholistic.
This supports the fact that Gandalf the white is more powerful then, as Gimli has seen her and therefore she would have been referenced with Sauron as beings more dangerous.

As far as Galadriel not diminishing: While her sphere of influence increased in the third age, there is nothing that says her power increased. The ring allows her to channel her power without losing it (we see this happen to Melkor, as overtime he pours himself into middle earth and greatly diminishes from the height of his power.)
This is the entire idea behind the rings of power: Then Sauron went a step further and actually imbued his own ring with his essence, in an attempt to dominate the other rings.

When we look at depictions of Galadriel it is very important to think about who the historian is: in The Silmarillion it is a translation from elvish by we presume bilbo, so all the stories are from the point of view of elves. When we look at The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings it is from the point of view of a hobbit, Bilbo and Frodo respectively. In The Silmarillion we see a more petty view of Galadriel, where she is not seen as a big player in the 1st age, while in The Lord of the Rings she is written as basically a goddess, which to a hobbit I'm sure is quite a logical take away. I'm not trying to discredit Galadriel of her due praise, but there is no way she can take on a Balrog or winged dragon in anything other than a battle of wills. As soon as the fight gets physical she is doomed, everytime we see a Balrog killed it also involves the person fighting it (be they mighty elf warrior, or even maia in the case of Gandalf) dying.

if this is a fight to the death than the order would be as follows:

Glorfindel beats Balrog (possibly dies again) and maybe the other elves and Saruman

Elrond beats Balrog (probably dies while doing so) and maybe the other elves and Saruman

Galadriel beats Balrog (probably dies while doing so), possibly the Witchking, and maybe other elves and Saruman

Saruman possibly beats all elves and Balrog, but the odds are he gets walked

Balrog is on mostly equal footing with all elves, probably takes out Witchking and Saruman

Smaug walks everyone up to Balrog, who he probably beats as well. Gandalf *might* be able to do something, but that's the only person with a chance

Gandalf takes everyone except for Smaug and the Witchking.

Titel: Re: Who is the second most powerful being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Adamin am 23. Jul 2015, 23:52
What?

The idea behind the three Elven Rings was to stop the deminishing of the elves.

Zitat
Now these were the Three that had last been made, and they possessed the greatest powers. Narya, Nenya, and Vilya, [...] and of all the Elven-rings Sauron most desired to possess them, for those who had them in their keeping could ward off the decays of time and postpone the weariness of the world.
- The Silmarillion: OF THE RINGS OF POWER AND THE THIRD AGE -

Galadriel wasn't (only) channeling her own powers through Nenya, she used it to stop the flows of time in Lórien and create her own Mini Doriath/Valinor in Middle-earth. Why were there no Mallorn Trees in Middle-earth except in Lórien? Because Galadriel created them!

Zitat
I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew:
- The Fellowship of the Ring: Chapter 8 Farewell to Lorien -

The Balrog comparison is also quite wobbly. The battle between Gandalf and the Balrog of Moria was mainly a battle of wills. There was only one exchange of sword blows. Other than that:

Zitat
"The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass."
The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew.
- The Fellowship of the Ring: Chapter 5 The Bridge of Khazad-dûm -

Also, the defeat of a Balrog was mainly marked by self-sacrifice, not a display of general power. Gandalf/Glorfindel sacrificed themselves without any selfish thought to save Frodo/Eärendil. That's a much stronger motive in their deed than their personal power. So I wouldn't say you can draw a simple power-hierarchy from that.

How on earth would Saruman be able to defeat a Balrog??



[...] were completely untainted (also due to her fundamental usage of Nenya), until she decided to resist the temptation of the Ultimate Power and accept her obligated return to Aman.

What?

So your saying Galadriel newer wanted to return to Aman and just did so, because it was obliged to, because "every elf was doing it"? I don't think so. It looks to me that Galadriel knew she was fighting an uphill battle. She had to know that Lórien was only the heart of elvendom because of Nenya, and that Nenya (as well as Lórien) would fade after the destruction of the One Ring.

Again in her own song Galadriel raises the question if she would be accepted in the west again (because of the curse of the Noldor), as if she was thinking very hard about it:

Zitat
O Lorien! The Winter comes, the bare and leafless Day;
The leaves are falling in the stream, the River flows away.
O Lorien! Too long I have dwelt upon this Hither Shore
And in a fading crown have twined the golden elanor.
But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?
- The Fellowship of the Ring: Chapter 8 Farewell to Lorien -
Titel: Re: Who is the second most powerful being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Walküre am 24. Jul 2015, 00:49


[...] were completely untainted (also due to her fundamental usage of Nenya), until she decided to resist the temptation of the Ultimate Power and accept her obligated return to Aman.

What?

So your saying Galadriel newer wanted to return to Aman and just did so, because it was obliged to, because "every elf was doing it"? I don't think so. It looks to me that Galadriel knew she was fighting an uphill battle. She had to know that Lórien was only the heart of elvendom because of Nenya, and that Nenya (as well as Lórien) would fade after the destruction of the One Ring.

Again in her own song Galadriel raises the question if she would be accepted in the west again (because of the curse of the Noldor), as if she was thinking very hard about it:

Zitat
O Lorien! The Winter comes, the bare and leafless Day;
The leaves are falling in the stream, the River flows away.
O Lorien! Too long I have dwelt upon this Hither Shore
And in a fading crown have twined the golden elanor.
But if of ships I now should sing, what ship would come to me,
What ship would bear me ever back across so wide a Sea?
- The Fellowship of the Ring: Chapter 8 Farewell to Lorien -

I'm sorry Adamin, this is something you wrongly inferred from my words.

The relationship between Galadriel and her land, and the role of Nenya in the 'enchantment' and safety of the realm are facts that I always kept on mentioning in my previous long comments; and I would never question such a pivotal and fundamental fact  :)

Her return is 'obligated' because it's her fate and an essential path of her life as a royal High Elf from Valinor, who witnessed the Splendour of the Two Trees.
The initial Perfection of the World was inevitably marred and corrupted by the powers of Melkor/Morgoth, who used Arda (except obviously Aman) as his own personal One Ring to spread his will and evil essence; and condemned it to an ineluctable destiny of decay and corruption, something that the Three Rings momentarily slowed and stopped.
The fate of the Elves was thus already decided (even before their Awakening in Arda), and that's why the Valar wisely decided to invite the Eldar to Valinor and always persuaded to sail towards it or return; because Valinor is the only place in which the Elves can live fully according to their nature of immortal beings, without fearing corruption or decay, since Valinor was made by Immortal Beings and made immortal by them.

Galadriel obviously knows this really well and her longing for the Undying Lands is always vivid, but she is divided and worried, because, as she tells Frodo in FOTR (book), the Love of the Eldar for their creations is deep as the depth of the Sea and she doesn't want to leave her realm and condemn it to vanish along the Ages of the World; but she is also well aware that, whether Sauron regains the One Ring or the One Ring is destroyed, her realm and her powers are doomed to fade forever and her people become rustic inhabitants of darkened woods.
That's why she also personally tells Frodo that she wishes that the One Ring had never been created, and thus letting the Three Rings to allow the Elves to stay in the World for other centuries without diminishing.

Her return to Aman is obligated by these facts, the sad story of corruption, decay and disenchantment of Arda, that goes from the initial titanic wars between the Valar and Melkor, to the betrayal of Sauron with the creation of the One Ring.
Titel: Re: Who is the second most powerful being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Adamin am 24. Jul 2015, 01:15
Oh okay then. Sorry for that then. I guess we agree on that one. :)
Titel: Re: Who is the second most powerful being in the Middle - earth?
Beitrag von: Walküre am 28. Jul 2015, 17:46
Ok, I finally managed to find the famous passage/line of Haldir, while he is escorting the Fellowship to Caras Galadhon through the forests of Lothlórien  :)
As you will notice, one of the most impressive things is the linear and yet hermetic usage of words of Tolkien, that here, instead of long and accurate descriptions of places and realms, chooses very significant few words full of fundamental meanings and references.

Here are the exact words of Haldir (Tolkien)  8-)

Zitat
Frodo looked and saw, still at some distance, a hill of many mighty trees, or a city of green towers: which it was he could not tell. Out of it, it seemed to him that the power and light came that held all the land in sway. He longed suddenly to fly like a bird to rest in the green city. Then he looked eastward and saw all the land of Lórien running down to the pale gleam of Anduin, the Great River. He lifted his eyes across the river and all the light went out, and he was back again in the world he knew. Beyond the river the land appeared flat and empty, formless and vague, until far away it rose again like a wall, dark and drear. The sun that lay on Lothlórien had no power to enlighten the shadow of that distant height.
`There lies the fastness of Southern Mirkwood,' said Haldir. `It is clad in a forest of dark fir, where the trees strive one against another and their branches rot and wither. In the midst upon a stony height stands Dol Guldur, where long the hidden Enemy had his dwelling. We fear that now it is inhabited again, and with power sevenfold. A black cloud lies often over it of late. In this high place you may see the two powers that are opposed one to another; and ever they strive now in thought, but whereas the light perceives the very heart of the darkness, its own secret has not been discovered. Not yet.' He turned and climbed swiftly down, and they followed him.

A very important and meaningful comparison, yet very direct and intuitive, also because it comes from the mouth of a recently-introduced character like Haldir is in this chapter.

The Darkness of Dol Guldur (where it is said that the Evil has returned eight times stronger) poisoned all its surrounding area, making the trees wither, a perennial dark Sky be upon the fortress and everything rot; a Darkness that can't even be pierced by the Light of the Golden Wood.

Lothlórien is, instead, always protected by its enchantment, caused by the Magic of Galadriel and Nenya, always preserving its holy aura among the Shadows of the World in the Third Age and, thus, creating a sacred place where the Light, the Bliss and the Joy have never been darkened by any kind of malicious will; the Ring of Water also almost completely removes the Action of Time in the realm, releasing all the hearts of its inhabitants by the sorrows of the decaying Middle Earth, making everyone (especially the strangers) feel like in a sort of timeless dream, or in a beautiful 'song' (as Sam had previously stated).
Galadriel will later personally 'admit/confess' to Frodo that the courage, the chants among the trees and the bows of the brave people of Lothlórien are clearly not enough to fend off the evil from her realm and preserve it; she thus finally shows Nenya openly to Frodo and calls it the 'Secret' of the Safety and Protection of the Golden Wood that Sauron always wanted to discover and starts to suspect.
But the fundamental passage of Haldir's line is his reference to the two sensational Powers (Galadriel and Sauron) that continuously fight each other in an eternal 'telepathic' battle (fact that Galadriel will admit as well later) to discover each other's intentions and plans, being both respectively the embodiment of Light and Darkness; the Light succeeds in piercing the Darkness and revealing its evil purposes, while the Darkness doesn't  :)

Having stated these pivotal facts, returning to the matter of this thread, I would say that Gandalf the White could have never resembled or replicated what Galadriel did with her powers: embalming a vast realm with her powers and Ring, protecting it for more than a millennium from any form of evil and making it a legendary place even for the very Wood Elves; we must also consider that her more-than-8000-year magical Knowledge and Strength, native of the Blessed Lands beyond the Sea and of the legendary and forgotten times of the Two Trees, is quite an unmatchable trait of her, that none of the other Elves or Istari could reach  8-)
And I would also say that Sauron and Galadriel are the only ones in Middle Earth (also Elrond and the Witch-king on a minor scale) capable of modifying so deeply the realms in which the live in with their Magic and Essence, and manipulate so greatly the Weather (Nature) of the World according to their will (maximum display of Magic in Tolkien's Universe), the former by creating an eternal dark Sky of ashes upon Mordor and the latter preserving a neverending calm and sunny Sky upon the Golden Wood.
Gandalf the White isn't clearly able to accomplish such great magical abilities on a very large scale.


Of course one could say that the powers of Gandalf the White are much more 'direct' and destructive, and that he has had a far more active and important role than Galadriel in the Fall of Sauron, given his Destiny of a guide for the Free People, and in the War of the Ring in general (leading the Defence of Minas Tirith and the confrontation with the Witch-king); he also, as Gandalf the White, is more closed to its essence and spirit of Olórin the Maia than he had previously ever been (still always remaining an Istar).

In the end, we could say that both of them, Galadriel and Gandalf the White, have powers that the other doesn't have, and a different role; Gandalf the White is able to directly use his powers for the Free People of Middle Earth, while Galadriel has certainly more authority as an extremely old and powerful High Elf and Guardian, since she established herself the White Council and had the power and authority to indicate Gandalf as its leader, if not the Grey Wizard had not refused her offer.

So, as you wrote, Tiberius, they both well deserve the second place in the poll  :)


P.S. I hope we can agree on that, Adamin  :P